One I'd rather forgive than kill. And two it's a game... Not "the real world"
Forgive them then, but don't be surprised when it happens again.
At the very least, talk to your player out of game and tell him that this is not really acceptable behavior (at least not without a change to alignment and campaign expectations). The fact that you had to start a thread about it at all is evidence enough of that.
I do have some sympathy for the monk. Imagine it's the old west, and bad guys are robbing the stage coach. Monk grabs his rifle and opens up, but hits the powder keg the stage was carrying. Innocent passengers that were not his target were killed. Certainly he might need punishment for a lack of car, but string him up ?
Exactly. I have noticed a lot of people on this board get unhappy if a nonheroic game is being played.Why is everyone so upset about dead peasants? It's not like actual people got hurt! :P
Up Taldor!
No.
It's nothing to do with a nonheroic game being bad. It's to do with your HEROES suddenly doing bad things for no reason. The OP already said this was a heroic campaign. The Wizard gets a by on method a bit since he's Lawful Evil, but the city Guard still isn't going to look at the guy and say "Well it's okay that he killed a bunch of people, he's EVIL, so he's allowed to."
If the game is being played at all realistically there's going to be SOME kind of attempted retribution from the city for that.
^Hey, there's always the old "retired adventurer" shtick he can fall back on. Some middle aged level 16 retired badass Barbarian lives in the local inn and saw the whole thing, so he rushes outside and gets to choppin' limbs.
If your party are the only people with any power in the world, your campaign is going to quickly fall apart as soon as one of them dies. Because I can assure you a player who is given the option of "sit out the rest of this 5 month campaign or roll up an NPC class" is more likely to punch you in the face than comply with either.
I'm trying to marry up the mass murder and the Lawful part of his alignment, trouble is, I'm only getting
Whatever, what does them being heroes or not have to do with anything at all?
It doesn't matter if they're evil or good, people are going to see some a!&%+~&s killing citizens and retaliate.
What is so unusual about having your NPCs react realistically?
This is a perfect example of the need for the DM to enforce real-world consequences. What would guards think about such irresponsible use of magic? Did the wizard not think or not care?
From the sound of it, he did not care. If that is the case then he should be punished. NPCs should react organically to this sort of situation. Best case scenario for the PCs is that even if the guards did not come after him, the local populace would fear and hate the PCs. No one would be willing to do business with the PCs. People would bar them from their homes and run in fear. Word would spread to other townships and the PCs would become Pariahs without some sort of drastic action.
Worst case scenario, they face execution or other medieval punishments (Hands cut off or tongues remove or branded for their crimes, the possibilities go on and on) and those that associate with them could face banishment on top of the rest of the stuff described above. A spellcaster would face the worst of it, brutal methods would likely be used to remove his spellcasting abilities due to the fear of an unhinged spellcaster running rampant.
Very nice answer. Hmm...personally I'd say that unless they hand themselves in and have to re-roll characters, the group will have to leave the city and possibly the country since news of so many deaths in a populated area will spread. Heads will roll, bounty hunters will be hired, vengeful family members will also want a peice (which could be sorta powerful NPCs) and that would derail the campaign i assume?
^Hey, there's always the old "retired adventurer" shtick he can fall back on. Some middle aged level 16 retired badass Barbarian lives in the local inn and saw the whole thing, so he rushes outside and gets to choppin' limbs.
If your party are the only people with any power in the world, your campaign is going to quickly fall apart as soon as one of them dies. Because I can assure you a player who is given the option of "sit out the rest of this 5 month campaign or roll up an NPC class" is more likely to punch you in the face than comply with either.
Well true, it all depends on the world your characters are in.
Take middle earth, Thorin and company are going to defeat smaug because NO one else will do it, they asked! So if everyone was so powerful someone would have done it.
BUT for example you see them run into elrond, a legendary war hero from ages gone past. I'd put him at the 14th level bard arena. But he has other concerns and dragon treasure isnt one of them, and he wouldnt be chasing down people getting murdered in lake town or the shire either. People like him ARE out there, just few and far between.
Again, if the PCs are living in some place like Korvosa however that has several many PC classed figures of note, justice would be swift. However, if they were so great and all reaching, how is it exactly Illeosa snuck past them? the answer really is in action economy, they can't just drop whatever they are doing to track down a disturbance in town. Thats what town guards are for, but the town guards aren't a match for a band of PCs. So what would get back to the ears of the higher ups is:
"A band of rebels blasted their way out of mos isely space port"
Sure darth vader could have stopped them, but he wasn't THERE. He found out about them, and then started tracking them, culminating in the hiring of bounty hunters, including boba feet, and the eventual carbonite freezing of han solo and chopping off luke's hand.....
Think about it, had han never shot greedo in the cantina, he would never have been frozen in carbonate.... everything has it's consequences, but in a world where the pcs are the center of interest, it's going to TAKE a while, not a 16th level barbarian living upstairs at the local inn.
And if he was there? Why didn't he clear out the werewolf pack himself? Still wouldn't need the PCs.
The justice in these towns is going to take a while, and repeated acts as well to get enough fame as an evil doer or doers to attract the bounty and get the attention.
Now if you just went on a killing spree in korvosa and started fires to every building you pass, that would bring down everyone and anyone who could stand against you because what was happening was THE most important thing going on.
However, MOST adventuring parties, aren't running around in korvosa. Falcon's Hollow isn't going to be able to do a thing about you. Heck even Katapesh isn't going to apprehend you immediately. In fact you'd be more likely to tick off a slave trader there, and get some ill attention from him, if one of the people that got killed was owned by him...than you would from lawful government types.
Whatever, what does them being heroes or not have to do with anything at all?
It doesn't matter if they're evil or good, people are going to see some a$+$#!+s killing citizens and retaliate.
What is so unusual about having your NPCs react realistically?
Realistically? The PC's just slaughtered 10s of people in seconds. that's pretty intimidating.
Who amoung them has the power to do something about that?
Sure, realistically they want something done, but who?
History has too much REAL LIFE reactions to how long it takes to apprehend killers to justify realism in any other way. What the public WANTS and what the public is able to DO are two different things.
Take the movie unforgiven, cowboys slice up a whore, the local law wants to "buy if off" by making the bad guys pay in ponies. The people in league with the victims (other whores) don't find this justice enough, and send out a bounty.... after time, bounty hunters do answer, and track down and kill the cowboys (what they are paid to do) even then the vengence is neither swift, nor absolute.
Initially, the cowboys go about their business, eventually some of them die.
Just like the reason the PCs are hooked into an adventure, it's never "yesterday a werewolf killed someone, go get em boys" it's more like "the town of bandar has been plagued by werewolf attacks and mysterious disappearances for years, but recently, the attacks have become more often, and multiple victims, this time the mayors daughter is missing...." that's when what is happening has reached the PCs ears. Not after the first werewolf attack...
They don't have the power to stop them.
That doesn't mean they won't try and get slaughtered doing it. Depends on where you are I guess, and where the guards fall on the scales of Smart-Stupid and Cowardly-Courageous.
They don't have the power to stop them.
That doesn't mean they won't try and get slaughtered doing it. Depends on where you are I guess, and where the guards fall on the scales of Smart-Stupid and Cowardly-Courageous.
wait you think a "realistic" response is MORE people trying to stop obviously more powerful people by sacrificing themselves in a bum rush?
This goes against self preservation human psychology. A show of overwhelming force is all that is need to subjugate the common man. People will scatter, run and hide. Sheriffs throw their badges into the sewer drain. Maybe over time, people will get fed up, meet in secret, discuss what to do and try to build up the courage, that's if the PCs hang around long enough, if they just move on, the survivors will count themselves lucky and go on with their lives.
Possibly the PCs victims might have had wealthy or influential relatives (who might hire a bounty hunter) , maybe one of the victims was actually favored by an area villain??
Maybe a victim was the bastard son of a local Orc war chief who seeks retribution for a imagined, paranoid plot to wipe out his blood line starting with the weakest most unprotected members?
Maybe a victim was the favored servant and a powerful necromancer sent to town to buy spell components?
I mean killing anyone could piss someone off really, you dont have to mow down 45 civilians to do it. Killing one guy in a barfight could get you eternal enmity from the arch lich Revengus, for killing a living heir of his..... and so on.
All Im saying is make it a story, not every community has a built in 16th level barbarian button to press.
A gun-slinger from alkenstar might take several seasons to get hired and then possibly a quite long while to track down the PCs.
since they have NO idea who he is, or that he even exists, he could show up at a local pub, or impersonate a curio shop they are known to frequent and double barrel one of them at point blank range.
by this time the PCs might have completely forgotten about the mass killing debaucle, they might even cry "NO FAIR that's BS" but oh well, actions have consequences.
Commoners with pitch forks and 16th level barbarians aren't real good options, however.
another option i just thought of is to let the party continue their irresponsible hjinx.
There are TWO other options.... eventually the hell knights would hear about their unlawful spread of panic and fear.... or possibly a traveling paladin?
IF they keep it up, they will be evil, so lay on the SMITE down!
I'm working from the assumption that the guards don't know every detail about the characters.
Think about law enforcement today, somebody sets off a bomb in the middle of a mall and they're going to show up and try to figure out what the hell is going on.
For all they know, when the guards arrive they could have found a sadistic Rogue who cast off of his only scroll of Fireball to kill all those people.
Now yeah, if they get in a fight and start taking lightning bolts and cones of flame everywhere while their Monk makes a "Bbbbbrrrrt" sound as he fires his bow, they're gonna retreat, but their first response to this isn't going to be "Holy shit a whole buncha people died! We could be in danger!" or they wouldn't be guardsmen.
I like your ideas though.
Hey can we get so more back ground information? Like how the fight in the middle of town was going down and what the townspeople watching said fight were doing? Did he xast the spell on the first round or like 6 rounds into things?
Could there be a reason he would think the spell wouldn't be a big deal (say regular NPCs always being even or slightly ahead of the party in level)?
I'm kind of feeling like there is probably more here than just the small bit we got in the OP.
I'm working from the assumption that the guards don't know every detail about the characters.
Think about law enforcement today, somebody sets off a bomb in the middle of a mall and they're going to show up and try to figure out what the hell is going on.
For all they know, when the guards arrive they could have found a sadistic Rogue who cast off of his only scroll of Fireball to kill all those people.
Now yeah, if they get in a fight and start taking lightning bolts and cones of flame everywhere while their Monk makes a "Bbbbbrrrrt" sound as he fires his bow, they're gonna retreat, but their first response to this isn't going to be "Holy s*#+ a whole buncha people died! We could be in danger!" or they wouldn't be guardsmen.
I like your ideas though.
well thats what ive been saying, sure the guard might come, but whats going to happen, are the PCs going to surrender to the guard? Or is there going to be a beat down? I dont' see this going in the favor of the guard unless the DM has made a really oppressive campaign world.
IF Luke went to Coruscant and started slashing storm troopers with a lightsaber it MIGHT take 10 minutes for his head to be displayed on a force pike.
In a place like tatooine, the fact someone saw something that might have been described as a laser sword used by an old man, got the attention of the storm troopers enough to almost catch the band of wary rebels, but not quite in time, and many many of them died trying.
Chances are, most PCs in small towns and villages are going to BE the most powerful thing around. So 'apprehension' is going to be a voluntary thing, or much much belated.
Yeesh. That's a hilariously low amount of wealth. Is the rest of it in item drops or are you playing a "Poor Man's Campaign"?
Still, no amount of gold smooths over the death of 15 people.
Think about it, if my gun went off and killed your mother, would you be all right with it if I walked up to you an hour later and handed you 20 grand in cash?
Well, technically 75,000 gp would smooth it over for the monk. That is only because death (and raise dead) are cheap in these games. 90,000 if you include the cost of restoration to repair the constitution drain (since obviously these peasants were only level 1, so no negative levels would be possible) This of course does not cover the cost of hiring a cleric or oracle to cast the spells, but it would be relatively small in comparison. Obviously, since the party would likely not have these funds, the base cost would go up to 150,000 before restoration since they could not get the funds and materials together for large scale raisings, thus they would need resurrections. The '20 grand in cash' per lost loved one would actually cover all this. Morality is weird in a world with resurrection at a relatively low cost.
Of course as a level 7 party, any of these prices are beyond them. It would make an interesting Geas for them to repay their debt. Mixed message about consequences of their actions, but enough of a character arc for them if they actually bother to do it. Although I do like the idea that person might take offense to someone killing them and taking months to resurrect them. Called in favors and bounty hunters later: surprise fight!
Ps: Wizard is still doomed though, since 50 people comes out to at least 250,000 gp, and that is the kind of funds you only find in late game (assuming it is only coming out of his share of the loot). Good luck surviving until then
yea I had thought of the child avenger thing while i was at work. An orphaned kid who didnt get caught in the aoe but watched his parents die.... many a RL terrorist were born in a similar manner.
It would take a while, but the child could turn into an evil caster himself, bent on revenge, stalking the PCs and summoning monsters to attack them when they were already in a fight... would be hideous!
Actually people in Pathfinder do have a definite cost.
Cost is how much Resurrection costs, hence why the Wizard's fine is 300,000.
I'm trying to marry up the mass murder and the Lawful part of his alignment, trouble is, I'm only getting
The Wizard wasn't explicitly aiming at the peasants, nor did she -really- want them to die. It was more out of apathy.
I do have some sympathy for the monk. Imagine it's the old west, and bad guys are robbing the stage coach. Monk grabs his rifle and opens up, but hits the powder keg the stage was carrying. Innocent passengers that were not his target were killed. Certainly he might need punishment for a lack of car, but string him up ?
This makes a lot of sense to me, especially since the Monk was immediately overshadowed by the Wizard.
Yeesh. That's a hilariously low amount of wealth. Is the rest of it in item drops or are you playing a "Poor Man's Campaign"?
Still, no amount of gold smooths over the death of 15 people.
Think about it, if my gun went off and killed your mother, would you be all right with it if I walked up to you an hour later and handed you 20 grand in cash?
In Medieval times a Knight could just go through down stabbing people and there would be very few consequences.
You might have to retcon to avoid derailing your campaign.
Or he needs to get on board with the fact that the players aren't playing the campaign he thinks he's running. He thinks he's running a campaign about a group of heroic figures trying to save the world, when in reality they're just another group of murderous scumbags no better than those they fight.
Let things play out as they are. If the players blow up the world and the campaign, it's still better to have it end as their choice than to invoke a sloppy, undeserved, Deus Ex Machina.
To be honest if it weren't for the fight being in the middle of the city my character would have likely just murdered the level 9 Ninja who grabbed the wizard and we would have just skipped town. The Wizard still got away using craftiness, but we as a party may have been able to level the marketplace if we -really- wanted to.
Also to clarify we are a level 7/8 party. The average wealth in the party is around 8,000g and we can't seem to find any magical item shops.
Dot.
The monk getting a fine and being forgotten about kinda makes sense to me in such a situation. An 'Archer' with a magic bow who shows remorse and turns them self in after accidentally killing over a dozen people would appear far less a threat than the wizard who just slaughtered the town market and shrugs it off as 'Acceptable losses'.
I can see the wizard trying to pay off the local officials to cover the loss of civilians, or even offering to 'bring them back from the dead' and raise them all as zombies/skeletons 'workers' for the town. Now, it may be that nobody can control these 'workers' so they run free killing even more townsfolk but that's not the fault of the wizard (from my point of view as LE anyhow).
Just up and leaving though doesn't really fit 'lawful evil' imo. On the other hand, if the wizard discusses compensation with the local officials for some time and they cannot reach an agreement, then I can see making some small gesture of penance to the town and leaving.
This is assuming they don't try to spin the whole situation around and blame the local guard for failing there duties by allowing the cultist to start the fight and demanding compensation themselves. Selfish and unrealistic? Sure, but we are talking about an evil character.
I would have to agree with the bounty hunter idea now though, since the wizard did flee. Perhaps making a note of some alignment shift away from lawful too.
Being Lawful Evil doesn't mean you have to get yourself killed to be lawful. He was going to be executed and ran for it.
off with there heads
off with there heads
Where heads?
Would maintaining control of you body after being decapitated be a fort save or a will save? I'll admit, it would be a high DC either way, but still...
Samurai should be able to expend all uses of Resolve to get one more attack...
Would maintaining control of you body after being decapitated be a fort save or a will save? I'll admit, it would be a high DC either way, but still...
It's a will save and you get a +5 bonus if you're trying to replace it with the Head of Vecna because you're so highly motivated. Who wouldn't want the Head of Vecna as an upgrade to your character?
This is the perfect example of why a high base speed is good.
They arn't serial killers if anything they are massively parallel.
As a solution for the town, anyone ever see "The Magnificent Seven," or likely the "The Seven Samurai?" While not quite the same thing, the village could hire their own "murder-hoboes" to avenge the deaths.