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One on One is the Only way to compare power level. Anything else brought into the mix changes the math and will make one class better then the other depending on the situation, environment, creatures etc... The only True way to compare power is one on one. I am not talking group dynamics but strictly class power.
@Amorangias If your winning encounters with those spells well you have not faced a veteran DM of worth.
As for RP... Paly can out diplomatic a Bard any day of the week. Lol.
Right spell is not a "fallacy"... In my over 30 years of DMing... The words "if I had only memorised that, this other..." Lol
but as you state its a player issue... So I will try not to assume you mean you and those you DM are better at the game than the rest of us.If only I had memorised:
Not get my a** handed to me.
Protection from arrows.
Er, an anti-grapple spell.
Not be split in twain.
Those spells do exist, just not by those names. ;)
Bah... Paladins could have no allignment restriction and be capable of smiting enemies of any allignment, and they'd still not be overpowered.
Paladins are effective, but nowhere close to broken. They are simply a martial class that can actually do its job. They are more effective than Fighters, sure, but that's because Fighters are underpowered, not because Pallys are OP.
I've never seen a Paladin capable of breaking a game or frustrating a GM in the ways a full caster can. It's not hard to predict what a Paladin can/will do in any given encounter, that means any GM that puts half a thought at it can prepare and run an adventure that challenges him.
Paladins are never useless, and shine in the situations they're supposed to shine, without ever auto-wiining a combat or coming up with something completely unexpected because the GM forgot he had a particullar spell.
In my book, that's a balanced class.
IMHO, Paladins (even without allignment restrictions), Inquisitors, Barbarians and Bards are the most well balanced classes in the game. Rangers are a close second, but I feel they could be slightly buffed.
Level 1 - Color Spray and Grease
Level 3 - Web, Glitterdust and Pyrotechnics
Level 5 - Sleet Storm, Spiked Pit and Slow.
Level whatever - black tentacle
Wow. I must go read up on these spells. They've never been part of my repertoire but now that someone is making a list of all the win buttons i'd better do some homework...
Is this really true? Are web and color spray win buttons in pathfinder? I have to admit I've never bothered to read them partly because they're just not my style, put partly because they used to kinda suck... I've never been much of a combat wizard though...
Perhaps we can make a separate topic where we list all the win buttons so that they can be erratad and people can start playing campaigns above level 8 again...
Web is very situational. In dungeons it can be amazing but in wilderness encounters it's of limited utility.
Color Spray is a very potent spell but the main drawback is that it has mediocre range. It's a great defensive spell and works great in most low level dungeons but you are typically going to be a pincushion if you are facing archers/crossbowmen in an outdoor setting.
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Level 1 - Color Spray and Grease
Level 3 - Web, Glitterdust and Pyrotechnics
Level 5 - Sleet Storm, Spiked Pit and Slow.
Level whatever - black tentacleWow. I must go read up on these spells. They've never been part of my repertoire but now that someone is making a list of all the win buttons i'd better do some homework...
Is this really true? Are web and color spray win buttons in pathfinder? I have to admit I've never bothered to read them partly because they're just not my style, put partly because they used to kinda suck... I've never been much of a combat wizard though...
Perhaps we can make a separate topic where we list all the win buttons so that they can be erratad and people can start playing campaigns above level 8 again...
Color Spray - it only affects low level creatures, but when it does, it's an area save or die effect.
Grease is probably the most versatile first level spell. It creates an area between the team and the monsters where anyone who enters has to save or fall down, stopping chargers and giving team's archers a few rounds of free shots. It can also help with escaping grapples and act as a magical disarm, depending on what you need.
Web is Grease on steroids, with higher save DC and a much more debilitating status. Everything that gets caught in it is a free target for all the team's fighters. In certain environments, it can even stop flying creatures.
Glitterdust cancels invisibility and inflicts blindness - both are area effects. Blinded enemies have a hard time doing anything against the team, and the ability to effectively dispel invisibility is a godsend at such low levels. The only downside is, the blindness effect allows a save each round.
Pyrotechnics also blinds enemies, but with only one saving throw - the downside is, there has to be a source of fire nearby. Or, if you don't wish to blind enemies, you can instead create a cloud of smoke that obscures all vision and inficts a -4 penalty to Strength and Dexterity.
Sleet Storm is a mixture of Grease and Pyrotechnics - it creates an area where no one sees anything and movement is hampered. Again, put it between the team and the enemies and you gain a few rounds to prepare for the oncoming battle.
Spiked Pit is just what it says on the tin - you create a spiked pit into which the enemies can fall and take damage. Use in conjunction with any of the vision-obscuring effects above (or even Fog Cloud, another good 2nd level spell, just not as versatile as those above).
Slow is a straight up mass save or suck. Staggered is one of the nastiest conditions you can put on a monster relying on physical attacks.
None of these spells is an absolute "I win" button, except maybe Color Spray on really low levels. Instead, each of these significantly hampers the enemy forces, either straight up debuffing them or buying your team time to buff without dealing with those pesky attacks. Each of them affects many targets and leaves a relatively long-lasting effect, which is key to proper use of magic in PF.
Then, there's Black Tentacles, the closest you can get to a true "I win" button at low-middle levels. It creates a field where everyone who enters is attacked with a grapple, and then crushed for your pleasure. No save, no SR. Just roll for grapple using your CL as BAB and adding +5. I've seen it wreak havoc from level 7 to about 13, then it starts falling behind enemy CMD, but while it lasts, it's absolutely amazing.
One on One is the Only way to compare power level. Anything else brought into the mix changes the math and will make one class better then the other depending on the situation, environment, creatures etc... The only True way to compare power is one on one. I am not talking group dynamics but strictly class power.
One on one gives you a thorough and objective analysis of how the class acts in a situation that never occurs in the game. I'm pretty sure I can build a Monk that will do very nicely in 1v1 combat against different classes.
@Amorangias If your winning encounters with those spells well you have not faced a veteran DM of worth.
Ah, the No True Scotsman Fallacy, my old nemesis!
I kindly ask that you back up your statement with evidence and show me CR-appropriate encounters that will not be significantly affected by those spells. I'll wait.As for RP... Paly can out diplomatic a Bard any day of the week. Lol.
How does he do that? I can understand blowing ranks into Diplomacy, but how does that compare to Charm Person/Monster, Suggestion, Dominate Person etc?
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Even assuming a Paladin had more Charisma than his Bard counterpart, he has a third as many skillpoints, no way to funnel those skillpoints (Versatile Performance~) and no spells to stack on top of that.
Almost no one can out-do a bard at social things, because that's almost specifically what the bard class was designed to do. Especially not a Paladin with a whopping 2-3 skill points a level (yes, you can get more, but you give up a lot for it).
I don't even know how a Paladin will keep pace with the Bard in terms of social skill checks.
Charisma is going to be high on a Paladin but they are also going to want to boost Strength and Con which means that Charisma is often going to lag behind (max Charisma Pally builds are kinda a trap). The Paladin also has way fewer skill points so he'll either be max Diplomacy (which really isn't that important considering it's got a flat DC progression) and sacrifice on other skills. In contrast the Bard generally has good skill points and has Charisma linked to his casting stat so Charisma is almost primary.
From pure skill checks Bard are almost always going to put the Pally to shame and that's before spells get factored in.
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Color Spray - it only affects low level creatures, but when it does, it's an area save or die effect.
Error you are stuck in 2E when it had a HD limit.
In 3.5 and Pathfinder, Color Spray afects all creatures of any level. It has mopre profound effects on weaker HD though.Extended Color spray affects even 20th level creatures for 2 rounds. (as I noted there is no HD limit)
Grease is probably the most versatile first level spell. It creates an area between the team and the monsters where anyone who enters has to save or fall down, stopping chargers and giving team's archers a few rounds of free shots. It can also help with escaping grapples and act as a magical disarm, depending on what you need.
Weaker in Pathfinder as it no longer denies dex except as AoO.
Web is Grease on steroids, with higher save DC and a much more debilitating status. Everything that gets caught in it is a free target for all the team's fighters. In certain environments, it can even stop flying creatures.
Web is 3.5 grease on steroids.
Glitterdust cancels invisibility and inflicts blindness - both are area effects. Blinded enemies have a hard time doing anything against the team, and the ability to effectively dispel invisibility is a godsend at such low levels. The only downside is, the blindness effect allows a save each round.
Yah, they added a save in Pathfinder.
Pyrotechnics also blinds enemies, but with only one saving throw - the downside is, there has to be a source of fire nearby. Or, if you don't wish to blind enemies, you can instead create a cloud of smoke that obscures all vision and inficts a -4 penalty to Strength and Dexterity....
Just cast Flaming Sphere (2nd level spell). Best note, the spell doesn't deactivate the flaming sphere only non-magical fire sources are turned off.
Color Spray - it only affects low level creatures, but when it does, it's an area save or die effect.
Error you are stuck in 2E when it had a HD limit.
In 3.5 and Pathfinder, Color Spray afects all creatures of any level. It has more profound effects on weaker HD though.
Technically true, but the effect it has on higher HD creatures is pretty negligible. Still, it's nice that it scales at all, unlike - say - Sleep.
Weaker in Pathfinder as it no longer denies dex except as AoO.
Grease is probably the most versatile first level spell. It creates an area between the team and the monsters where anyone who enters has to save or fall down, stopping chargers and giving team's archers a few rounds of free shots. It can also help with escaping grapples and act as a magical disarm, depending on what you need.
Also true, but still pretty effective as area denial effect.
Web is 3.5 grease on steroids.
Web is Grease on steroids, with higher save DC and a much more debilitating status. Everything that gets caught in it is a free target for all the team's fighters. In certain environments, it can even stop flying creatures.
Even better then ;)
Yah, they added a save in Pathfinder.
Glitterdust cancels invisibility and inflicts blindness - both are area effects. Blinded enemies have a hard time doing anything against the team, and the ability to effectively dispel invisibility is a godsend at such low levels. The only downside is, the blindness effect allows a save each round.
Still a good spell in my book. It just means it'll wear off... eventually... on some enemies... instead of "not until long after all enemies are dead".
Just cast Flaming Sphere (2nd level spell). Best note, the spell doesn't deactivate the flaming sphere only non-magical fire sources are turned off.
Pyrotechnics also blinds enemies, but with only one saving throw - the downside is, there has to be a source of fire nearby. Or, if you don't wish to blind enemies, you can instead create a cloud of smoke that obscures all vision and inficts a -4 penalty to Strength and Dexterity....
And since Flaming Sphere happens to be a pretty cool spell in itself, it makes for a really nice combo.
Level 1 - Color Spray and Grease
Level 3 - Web, Glitterdust and Pyrotechnics
Level 5 - Sleet Storm, Spiked Pit and Slow.
Level whatever - black tentacleWow. I must go read up on these spells. They've never been part of my repertoire but now that someone is making a list of all the win buttons i'd better do some homework...
Is this really true? Are web and color spray win buttons in pathfinder? I have to admit I've never bothered to read them partly because they're just not my style, put partly because they used to kinda suck... I've never been much of a combat wizard though...
Perhaps we can make a separate topic where we list all the win buttons so that they can be erratad and people can start playing campaigns above level 8 again...
Color Spray - it only affects low level creatures, but when it does, it's an area save or die effect.
Grease is probably the most versatile first level spell. It creates an area between the team and the monsters where anyone who enters has to save or fall down, stopping chargers and giving team's archers a few rounds of free shots. It can also help with escaping grapples and act as a magical disarm, depending on what you need.
Web is Grease on steroids, with higher save DC and a much more debilitating status. Everything that gets caught in it is a free target for all the team's fighters. In certain environments, it can even stop flying creatures.
Glitterdust cancels invisibility and inflicts blindness - both are area effects. Blinded enemies have a hard time doing anything against the team, and the ability to effectively dispel invisibility is a godsend at such low levels. The only downside is, the blindness effect allows a save each round.
Pyrotechnics also blinds enemies, but with only one saving throw - the downside is, there has to be a source of fire nearby. Or, if you don't wish to blind enemies, you can instead create a cloud of smoke that obscures all vision and inficts a -4 penalty to Strength and Dexterity....
Agree on black tentacles.
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The issue is Paladins fill the same role as a fighter. A cleric or wizard aren't going to do nearly as much damage and they will be much less tanky.
That depends on situation and build. Fighters can be better vs large groups and non-evil foes. Paladins are better against single evil foes far and away.
One on One is the Only way to compare power level. Anything else brought into the mix changes the math and will make one class better then the other depending on the situation, environment, creatures etc...
This statement is an oxymoron, it contradicts itself. If other factors can affect the power level, then one-on-one is logically not the best way to compare power level because it changes in every other circumstance. Power level should instead be compared across the widest variety of situations likely to be encountered.
Further, be aware that power is not as important as spotlight time. Power does not matter if every class gets a chance to shine.
Hmm, one reason I don't like pallies, the smite runs out. Prevents me from going them when options like the rogue or fighter are there. Barbs stay longer doing high damage too, even fighter barbs in pathfinder.
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They're actually fairly balanced, as far as these things go. They have fairly good melee capacity (what with their full proficiencies, BAB, and d10 hit dice), though not as good as a fighter or barbarian, of course. Their auras are useful against certain situational effects, they can heal (in a more limited way than cleric,s though paladins are better at combat, so fair is fair) and temporarily repress negative conditions. Their spells aren't great, but that doesn't make much difference, since they can use their magic to buff themselves. Smite evil is great, especially early on when bypassing DR is a real pain, and their ability to imbue their weapon with holy energy is also fairly nice. Their saving throws are fantastic, to boot.
I find them balanced. Good, but not great. They can do a smattering or things that other classes are better at, but they can do a lot of these things. That, and they have some great archetypes. Divine Hunters are one of my favorite ranged character builds. As for the alignment thing...meh. Doesn't bother me too too often....
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I won't say overpowered. The pathfinder paladin can stand toe to toe with a range of enemies. In 3.5 they ran out of holy fizzy smite juice so quickly and were left fighting like warriors three levels lower. Despite all the restrictions, they don't seem to gain powers appropriate to those restrictions. For all their restrictions on code of conduct and alignment, they are somewhat second stringers in melee ability. Fighters and barbs blow through them. Same goes for neutral rogues and ranged rangers. The mercies equal out the playing field but they are hardly the hardest hitting class. The paladin's shtick is smiting evil. Against anything that isn't, they struggle like drowning knights in full-plate. Either that or the opponents are non evil and a couple of CRs below the pally. They fulfill and odd role. Somewhat like the monk, excel at a few things but have a substantial list of mechanical weaknesses.
The Paladin's what are overpowered?
Because I can see from the title of the thread that he owns some things that are overpowered. I just don't know what.
I won't say overpowered. The pathfinder paladin can stand toe to toe with a range of enemies. In 3.5 they ran out of holy fizzy smite juice so quickly and were left fighting like warriors three levels lower. Despite all the restrictions, they don't seem to gain powers appropriate to those restrictions. For all their restrictions on code of conduct and alignment, they are somewhat second stringers in melee ability. Fighters and barbs blow through them. Same goes for neutral rogues and ranged rangers. The mercies equal out the playing field but they are hardly the hardest hitting class. The paladin's shtick is smiting evil. Against anything that isn't, they struggle like drowning knights in full-plate. Either that or the opponents are non evil and a couple of CRs below the pally. They fulfill and odd role. Somewhat like the monk, excel at a few things but have a substantial list of mechanical weaknesses.
Yeah, smite could be made more akin to the ranger favoured enemy, but slower to drastically increase. +1 to hit and damage against evil every three levels, +2 vs evil outsiders.
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Ah, the No True Scotsman Fallacy, my old nemesis!
There is one exception to the Scotsman Fallacy:
"True men don't... kill coyotes!!"
Meantime, since the statement that if you are winning encounters with those spells means you have not faced a GM of worth is, in itself, a statement of opinion, not fact, logical fallacies as such do not apply to it.
The Scotsman Fallacy is a form of Begging the Question. I believe that in order to perpetrate a Scotsman Fallacy, one must have previously made an assertion regarding the Scotsman in the first place. Thus, this would have been a fallacious argument, using the example upon which you called foul:
WhipShire: All GMs can defeat Amorangias when he uses spells.
Amorangias: The following are the spells I have used to defeat GMs: cone of crap, dog of renown, spanking of the Shire.
WhipShire: Well, what I meant to say was that all TRUE GMs can defeat Amorangias' spells.
WhipShire, on the other hand, was not having a logical communication with you, bound by the assumption that everything both of you said would follow only logical, provable assertions. He was merely tossing out an opinion. But more to the point, his opinion did not have to do with GMs generally, it actually had to do with the quality of the spells. The subjects don't match, thus the fallacy does not exist.
Those spells... I want them in my games.
I see a lot of people mentioning mercies. As a paladin player, I really haven't found much use for them yet. They seem so incredibly situational, that I generally consider them worthless.
I just picked up fatigued... since that takes 8 hours to remove normally... but the rest? At the moment I don't really care if I collect them or not...
Can anyone explain what makes these things so noteworthy? Obviously i'm missing something.
I still see the immunity to fear and +4 to ALL SAVES as a heck of lot more OP then mercies are.
:D
If I could remove fatigue, as a pally I would never rest.
Onward to the destruction of eviiiiillll!
:D
If I could remove fatigue, as a pally I would never rest.Onward to the destruction of eviiiiillll!
I've heard it suggested that I could now sleep in my heavy armor if I wanted to....
But 1) That feels cheap... and stinky.
And 2) wastes a lay on hands first thing in the morning....
You might want to do it in really dangerous areas, but make sure you spend some coin to make a heavy pillow helm, and to get some laughs around the table at Sir Fluffypuff.
You might want to do it in really dangerous areas, but make sure you spend some coin to make a heavy pillow helm, and to get some laughs around the table at Sir Fluffypuff.
LOL
Yeah... that AC 10-12 for all night attacks was getting old REALLY fast... I have since invested in Studded leather pajamas ^_^
and of course he straps on the half-plate every time it's his watch :)
I'm not saying that in emergencies he wouldn't revaluate the 'sleep in armor/remove fatigue' combo... but I just can't play that as an 'every night' kind of thing ;)
If you can remove fatigue, you never have to rest in the first place.:D
If I could remove fatigue, as a pally I would never rest.Onward to the destruction of eviiiiillll!
I've heard it suggested that I could now sleep in my heavy armor if I wanted to....
But 1) That feels cheap... and stinky.
And 2) wastes a lay on hands first thing in the morning....
why hello androids ;)
If you can remove fatigue, you never have to rest in the first place.:D
If I could remove fatigue, as a pally I would never rest.Onward to the destruction of eviiiiillll!
I've heard it suggested that I could now sleep in my heavy armor if I wanted to....
But 1) That feels cheap... and stinky.
And 2) wastes a lay on hands first thing in the morning....
And how would you recover those daily uses of LoH (among other abilities, such as spells, Smite Evil and Divine Bond) if you never rest?
I don't think using LoH to stay awake is cheesy... At most, it's a very desperate move for when the Paladin absolutely can't rest.
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You don't have to rest to recover LoH. Only spells require that.
You sure? How does it work then? Does Iomedae looks at her watch and says 'Midnight already?! I better refill my Paladins' LoH quota..."
I thought all daily powers required some rest to recover... Oh, well, living and learning...
Miss! Miss! It is time to refill the lay on hands!
Are they resting?
Not all of them.
They had better be tucked in, or I will be sooo angry.
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My favourite motto for any god is, 'Don't make me come down there!'Miss! Miss! It is time to refill the lay on hands!
Are they resting?
Not all of them.
They had better be tucked in, or I will be sooo angry.
Iomedae reads specifically as the tired working mother who is not taking none of her children's backtalk, to me. "I WILL TURN THIS EXISTENCE AROUND IF YOU KIDS DO NOT BEHAVE."
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In 1st ed paladins and rangers were sub-types of fighter. They could do everything a fighter could do, and more! They needed something to balance them. Part of that was the ability score requirements (YMMV, but Gygax thought so) and alignment. Paladins got an extremely strict code, much stricter than it is now.
In 2nd ed paladins were a sub-type of cavalier,
Paladins did pay more XP for a level in 1st Ed & were really restricted on the number of magic items and money they could have.
As a note in 1e using Unearthed Arcana (1.5e?) Paladins were a sub-class of Cavalier. In 2e they were an optional class and had nothing to do with the Cavalier class of 1e.
S.
Iomedae reads specifically as the tired working mother who is not taking none of her children's backtalk, to me. "I WILL TURN THIS EXISTENCE AROUND IF YOU KIDS DO NOT BEHAVE."My favourite motto for any god is, 'Don't make me come down there!'Miss! Miss! It is time to refill the lay on hands!
Are they resting?
Not all of them.
They had better be tucked in, or I will be sooo angry.
Now I can't un-see all Iomedae clerics as having mother issues. The mother-boy male paladins, fearful of mumsy.
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As a DM it's hard not to groan when the paladin not only is using smite to bypass the DR of your BBEG and do ludicrous damage, but granting that power to the whole party (for the entirety of combat, might I add). While I will agree they're nowhere near the level of a high octane caster, for a martial class they have always consistently outshines their peers in my games.
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Didn't say it had to be ALL neutral enemies, but it could have a good number of them.
Another option is just to focus far less on single BBEGs and stick to groups of enemies. His Smites ain't going far when he's gotta burn 3-4 of them in a fight if he wants to use it against everyone.
Animals, giant insects, oozes, golems, professional mercenaries unswayed by good or evil = neutral.
Thri-kreen make good chaotic neutral enemies since they don't view humans very highly, and they love to eat elves (go kreens, I hear their elven burgers are delightful). Thri-kreen and wild barbarian tribe allied against the paladin, their lawful good authorities and institutions. Bug-barians unite!
Lawful neutral (and lawful good monks) may try to take over a feudal territory if persecuted to make their own form of good, just, lawful and wisely ruled society (ikko ikki monks).
Didn't say it had to be ALL neutral enemies, but it could have a good number of them.
Another option is just to focus far less on single BBEGs and stick to groups of enemies. His Smites ain't going far when he's gotta burn 3-4 of them in a fight if he wants to use it against everyone.
The issue is a paladin has little incentive to join a plot based on neutral enemies. And it only gets worse the higher level you get. There are very few iconic neutral villians while there is a wide variety of evil enemies. Over 70 percent of the bestiary is dedicated to evil things and a "heroic" campaign is going to focus on fighting evil.
The second option is a general counter to martial characters. The wizard with black tentacles or fireball is expected to deal with large groups.
If neutral/chaotic neutral/lawful neutral forces are threatening the kingdom/theocracy and the very place of the faith, it is time to get your longsword. Chaos vs law, neutral vs lawful good, good vs good. While all this chaos ensures, evil monsters may frolic, that needs the paladin's efforts as well.
The toughest of lawful cookies?