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Many-Layered Veil
Aura moderate illusion; CL 11th
Slot head; Price 16,000 gp; Weight —
Description
This veil is composed of seven layers of fine gauze, tinted the color of ash. When the veil is donned, the wearer’s face appears only in silhouette, though his own vision remains perfectly clear.
When the veil’s wearer casts an illusion spell, he may, as a swift action, additionally create a phantasmal image – a mind-affecting illusion with effects similar to major image. At first, the phantasmal image cannot be perceived by anybody but the wearer. However, whenever a creature successfully disbelieves the caster’s primary illusion, it is immediately subjected to the phantasmal image. Effectively, the creature’s successful disbelief exposes it to a second layer of illusion. Any number of creatures can be thus affected.
Treat the phantasmal image precisely as a major image (Will DC 19 to disbelieve), except that it is a mind-affecting effect. The phantasmal image must be chosen by the wearer while casting the primary illusion, and the two must be visibly distinct. The phantasmal image's duration depends on the caster's concentration, as major image (concentration + 3 rounds). If the primary illusion requires concentration as well, the wearer can concentrate on both effects simultaneously.
When the phantasmal image expires, one of the veil’s gauze layers fades away into nothingness. When the final, seventh layer is consumed, nothing remains of the many-layered veil.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, Heighten Spell, mad hallucination, major image; Cost 8,000 gp
Jeez, you almost never see illusion items done well. I like this a lot and I really like the disappearing veil effect. Bold move to design in this particular space of the rules. I admire that. Good work. It has some flaws that I'm sure Sean will find, and to some extent you are getting props for how hard it is to design in that space, but that said this is cool. Great tie in of the item (what it is) to its theme. Very well done.
It needs to clarify what kind of illusions you can use this with. I mean, you could cast invisibility, then stick the veil's phantasm with it, but you never attempt to disbelieve invisibility, so the phantasm would never show up. Basically, add text to avoid trap options.
Contributor
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Star Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 9
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Welcome to the Top 32, Standback!
The tie between the actual item and the item's effect is quite strong, so that works very well for you. I also enjoy the layers of deception this item provides—surely, very few creatures will assume that a broken illusion conceals yet another illusion. The items formatting is also clean, so that's great.
I remember your detailed analyses during last year's RPG Superstar, so I imagine you have a handle on what works and what doesn't in the contest. Best of luck to you!
Kudos for tackling this design space. I like the overall concept, but in specifics I think illusions are difficult enough for players to understand/GMs to adjudicate. This item only adds to that confusion.
I look forward to future submissions from this veteran RPG Superstar follower/participant.
First of all, congratulations on making the Top 32! That in itself is a major accomplishment and it’s something you should take great pride in. You rock!
This item is complicated for sure, but I don't think it's too complicated and I don't think it will bog down a game by its complexity. In fact, kudos for creating such a complex and very evocative item. Thematically, your veil oozes with ghostly, illusory flavor and the powers are fun even if the design needs a bit of polishing. Hats off for this bold entry! I'm curious to see what you have in store for us with your archetype. Good luck!
This was one where my first impression was blah, but then I realized I hadn't understood it properly. Once I did, I was very much in favor. You got a lot of my upvotes!
This item was my favorite from the start. Glad to see it in the top 32.
Congratulations Standback/Ziv, I was really hoping that all the good work done in the 9 Blazing Months thread would pay off.
This was an item that I marked for glory since the my 1st vote!
I was, at first read, about to vote against it because I thought it was cliche with the illusion and veil themes. But I read it again, and found that I loved it.
I think you basically need to simplify or add more text to clarify for ease of reading and then you have the winning ticket!
Looking forward to your next round(s).
Congrats, Standback/Ziv! I know you've been taking your shot at the competition for quite awhile now. So it's great to see all that patience, persistence, and homework pay off for you. Your wondrous item really surprised and delighted me when I read it. This is something I could definitely see putting into play in my own games. Really well done. But don't get dazzled by finally making it into the Top 32. The real competition is about to get underway. Maintain your focus and keep doing your best work. If it's anything like your many-layered veil, I expect we'll be seeing you make it through many layers of the competition. Best of luck!
Love for illusionists?! Say it's so!
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9
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Ah, Sivanah's Veil! I am fond of illusion spells and really enjoyed this item. I liked that I had to read this item a few times to understand its implications and I thought it was really well done.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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I think I voted this up every time I saw it, and I saw it a lot. I am usually not fond of the disbelieve mechanic because I think it cheapens the feel of good illusion magic. This item addresses mechanics pretty well, is very cinematically appropriate, and kicked every items stacked against it in the pants. Great job and good luck the rest of the season.
I like it. As Steven said, very cinematic, nice mystical feel and great mechanics.
So, I made it through the cull, huh? :)
Many, many thanks to all the voters who liked my entry, and to the judges for counting me in. And thanks everybody for the kind comments! (Unkind comments also accepted!)
Oh, man. I've been rooting for you to become a contestant for years now, just to prove that dedication and work pay off. During the contest you've always been a veritable fountain of wisdom, showing great critiquing chops, and during the off-season you train like a freaking marathon runner.
So for you to not just earn a top 32 slot, but do it with my personal favorite item out of this year's top 32? Absolutely awesome. Good job. I look forward to seeing what you have to show us.
The stacking disbelief is something that I never would have thought of, and yet I now say, "of course!"
That's Superstar-worthy material right there.
Congratulations, and I'll see you in the archetype round!
(Do people have me confused with somebody else? I'm really loving the support, and people saying how much they love having me around, but I've never been in the Blazing 9 Months training threads. I'll cop to the fountain-of-wisdom bit, though!)
The perfect magic to work around a veil. It's hard to make illusion magic exciting in print, because invariably the player casting the illusion who is the one exercising creativity, but this does so admirably.
Marathon Voter Season 6
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This one was one of several favorites for me and certainly one of the best of the top 32. I think your online activity over the years means that your "name" is one that registers well for many regulars - I think definitely take it as a compliment of your online presence and input. I hope you do well in the coming rounds.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
I loved this when I saw it (still do), but it's way overpriced. 16K for 7 charges - you could buy seven different 6th and 7th level scrolls for that price. Are you saying this is a 7th level spell effect? And scrolls are supposed to be more expensive than a multi-use slotted magic item.
The bracelet of friends suffers from the same problem. Its a cool magic item, but way overpriced, and as a result, is rarely seen in any game where crafting and item purchases are allowed.
I do like charges, but I'm wondering what the charges add to this item. I think it would be improved with once/day rather than charges. (The fluff on the veils fading is nice, but you could add some more cool fluff I'm sure).
It's a great item though, just some feedback as pricing errors are unfortunately a death knell if not right.
As an aside, I am pleased that you've made it through, not because you are a forum regular (plenty of them), but because I think your prose is solid (cf numerous forum posts). A game designer is part number-cruncher, part writer, and think you'll do well at the writing part.
The item seems technically proficient, but I will echo the above poster's concern about the price and limited usage. Also, I think that without some clarification of its boundaries an enterprising PC could abuse its powers.
I'm unclear on the applications for this. I'm also not excited about a mechanic that comes into effect on a successful save, that seems like a door that probably shouldn't be opened. Pricing is also problematic.
Thanks for the comments, folks!
Pricing was tough. Magic items forcing Will saves are a bugger - they default to the lowest possible save DC, which is very weak compared to "typical" spell save DCs at similar power levels. What you're seeing is a major image effect Heightened to 6th level. And if you wanted to take the most extreme view, this is a Heightened and Quickened spell, being cast as a swift action alongside an additional spell - that would actually put it in a 10th level slot.
I agree that it "feels" overpriced; the save DC is the main reason for that. High DCs cost more like they feel they should. :P I might have been able to go a bit lower than I did, but I'm pretty certain I'm in the right ballpark.
I went with limited charges because it lowers the price considerably. I could have also lowered the price using an x/day limit, but I decided against that - doing a double-layered illusion is rarely something you'd be doing on a daily basis; on the other hand, when you do want it, it might be in a situation where you'd really need it a few times in quick succession.
Plus, the fluff dovetailed with the decision very nicely :)
(Do people have me confused with somebody else? I'm really loving the support, and people saying how much they love having me around, but I've never been in the Blazing 9 Months training threads. I'll cop to the fountain-of-wisdom bit, though!)
Never say never! :-)
Evidence to contrary!
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nypb&page=11?9-Blazing-Months#523
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nypb&page=11?9-Blazing-Months#515
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nypb&page=2?9-Blazing-Months#67
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nypb&page=2?9-Blazing-Months#61
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m2r7&page=3?Nine-Blazing-Months#135
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m2r7&page=3?Nine-Blazing-Months#134
The last one is an actual item you submitted to the 9 Blazing Months thread! :-)
I recognized your screen name as soon as I saw it. That combined with the fact that almost every single one of your 400+ posts is in the RPG Superstar thread (going back to 2009) kind of gives it away. Now unless you have an evil parasitic clone or there's a serious case of demonic games designer possession going on, your diligence and practice has been rewarded. :-) Good luck in the competition, I'm looking forward seeing your work in the next round.
Aw... now I'm blushing...
...and getting back to my archetype.
I agree with Matt. You (and a few others) stand as an example of what's possible if you persevere, learn, and apply yourself to the RPG Superstar process. That's why I'm also looking forward to seeing what else you do now that you've got your foot in the door. Is that pressure? Good. Get used to it. Because you're all most definitely in the pressure cooker now. The secret lies in how well you deal with it, while staying true to yourself and your design strengths.
Congrats Standback/Ziv! You were another one I was really pulling for because you've been such a great presence on the forum and I know you've been at this a while. It's really great to see, especially as a newbie.
As for the item, I don't actually think I saw this during voting. I agree with Clark that this isn't an easy place to design for, but you took a risk and pulled it off. That takes guts and skills, which is really what being a Superstar is about. It did take me a couple read throughs to fully understand everything that was going on here, and there are a few clunky sentances, but I can definitely see the potential here.
Congrats again and I'm really looking forward to seeing what you submit for the next round!
Ziv,
Congratulations! I have to admit, this item is a bit of a sleeper for me. I've always been a bit disillusioned with this particular school of magic, and the possibilities of the veil didn't quite sink in. Looking at it now, I can see where the judges are coming from. It's actually pretty devious to conceal one illusion beneath another. Pricing problems and mechanical issues aside, your core concept is inspired. Good luck in the next round.
Congrats on your making the top 32, I know I'll be watching your progress thru the competition closely as a future member of the 9 Blazing I want to see the folks that worked for it succeed.
I loved this item, I found it to be a little more of a niche item, but sometimes those items are awesome. Now for some critque:
The good: Clever core idea, balanced mechanically, I actually agree with your pricing, and templated to perfection.
The bad: A little too specialized, design carried this.
The Ugly: Voting fatigue + complicated item sometimes = less votes.
I think the good highly out weighed the bad and sincerely hope you do well in the rounds to come.
I guess you can put me in the camp of those who don't know what to do with this item. I've never played, or even played with, an illusionist, so I just don't see the practical application. However, it certainly seems well-thought-out mechanically. Congrats!
This one is very well done. Great idea. Definitely one of my top picks. I think you may be tough to beat in future rounds. Like SKR said, there needs to be some clarity as to what kind of illusions this works with (the sub-schools might work for designation). Great idea. I'm a little worried about the competition you will provide in the future rounds. Good luck to you.
This was one of few items that I saw that I voted for hard. Really interesting idea. All the best in the upcoming rounds!
Nickolas and SKR are certainly correct. I'd toyed with wording such as "When the veil’s wearer casts an illusion spell allowing a disbelief save...". I dropped it since the intro phrasing was already quite cumbersome. I knew it's an item that's a bit complex, and I desperately wanted to explain the general gist of the effect as clearly as possible and as soon as possible. As it is, I already relied on phrasing which goes "activating this item creates an effect you don't know (which I'll explain next paragraph!)."
It's a constant tension: you don't want to bury your lead, but you also need to be precise about the setup... which might require some detail. OTOH, a description explaining the central effect, then circling back for a round of clarifications and minor odds and ends can sound very awkward.
It suddenly occurs to me to wonder how other Top 32 items have dealt with this issue. Can anybody think, offhand, of Top 32 items which needed some detail in the setup, and handled it gracefully?
In the end, I felt OK assuming that if the item's effect is explicitly triggered by a successful disbelief, then players won't try to use it for a spell which doesn't allow disbelief.
Yup, I'm a programmer, ladies and gentlemen; I'll be here all night.
To me this item takes one of the most useful illusion spells I know, mislead, and turn it into something which suddenly makes the whole school much more viable. Brilliant.
Also, congratulations Standback. I too believe you deserve this. Bring the experience, and whip this competition soundly with it!
Congratulations Ziv, long time coming!
The complications are a little much for me, but I have to say you answered as many questions as I had. Nice and tight (but you knew that :)
I am pegging this as your last superstar as a contestant, which is cool and sad :)
Good luck and nice job!
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Locke1520
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Congratulations on making it to the top 32. I like this one there is very little that plays in the illusion design space and for good reason it's tricky but you have pulled it off well here. Good luck in the archetype round.
I am glad to see this Item make it into the top 32 since I voted it up several times. I love the flavor and the look of it, and I can easily see it in play. It may be a complicated concept, but I think you did a great job of describing it and that is one of the reasons I like it. Good Luck in Round 2.
Did not see this during the vote but would have made my top 10 if I had! Great effect, good mechanics and excellent utility. Nice one!
Congratulations on making it into the top 32. Another item I didn't see during voting. I agree with your assessment on save DCs and Items, getting a decent DC is costly. I also think this is a sometimes item, but it could be an illusionists best friend in certain situations. The idea of an item that creates a backup illusion is so obvious once some pointed it out it makes me want to slap my head and say, "Why didn't i think of that?". The description of the veils fading as uses are consumed is also a nice touch. Good luck in round 2!
Ziv, congratulations! I'm glad to see a familliar contributor on these threads make it through, and with quite the item too!
I'm going to have to agree with the above comments that the only real thing wrong with this item is the price, for the limited uses, which is where the art of pricing comes in. You're technically right, sure, but to make it a good buy for everyone, you'd have to reduce the cost - maybe by about half.
Otherwise, I love the idea of one illusion otherwise covering another. A fantastic double-play.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka burrahobbit
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Congrats on making the Top 32! From the first time I cracked the 2E PHB and came across the description of an illusion of sunlight glittering off of the spears of an entirely fictitious approaching army, I've loved anything that encourages this kind of illusion trickery. Well done, and I'll look forward to seeing your archetype!
Nice idea. I like the 'gotcha' aspect of this item and the uses it inspires - like putting an easily disbelieved illusion on top of the item's secondary effect to trick an opponent into taking the bait. Formatting and grammar are very good - no nitpicks this time.
Good work. Tight design. Cost is good for what it does...
It is even a good addition to a High level party or bad-guy.
I would definately say to keep an eye out for wahtever this designer produces.
Ziv,
Your many-layered veil featured in my own Top 32, which goe to say that I really liked it. I don't mind that it's a little situational, it is a very clever idea and can throw an enemy off balance in the right circumstances. Congratulations on making the Top 32!