How does Vital Strike work with Spirited Charge


Rules Questions

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Jason's post was made in a thread, so I assume it's meant to be read in the context of the thread, not all by itself.


Winston Colt wrote:


The mount must use its action pool to charge and the rider must also use his action pool to charge.

Except the Mountie needs a move action to get the mount to use a charge action. If the Mountie uses a move action, he can no longer use a charge action.

Pharmalade wrote:


Emphasis mine. It doesn't take a move action to charge with a mount unless the animal isn't trained for combat.

Not that this has any bearing on the rest of your argument, I just thought I'd point that out.

But does " You do not need to roll " mean you don't need a move action, or a test is not required, but the move action req remains? I think its the latter

Irontruth wrote:
Jason's post was made in a thread, so I assume it's meant to be read in the context of the thread, not all by itself.

Except it didnt really answer the OPs question in that case, from what i can tell he just confirmed that a vital strike cant be combined with a charge, not if a mount uses a charge action, the Mountie also uses a charge action


Man, they really went to far to keep vital strike balanced. It doesn't work with anything.

Grand Lodge

Yep, I think this is just one of those oversights where they cant put in a clause for every application of an action.

If its come down to Vital Strike only being able to work with a move and standard action, no charge, no spring attack, I dont see it working with a mounted charge, holes in the RAW or not.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

There aren't holes in the RAW though (except for possibly the wording of Spirited Charge).
If you remove Spirited Charge from the equation, Vital Strike should still work from the back of a charging mount for x3 damage with Vital Strike and x5 damage with greater Vital Strike. Break it down:

Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount.

Mounts in combat: Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

And the final arguments for action economy:

You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

Mounted Skirmisher:Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

I want to re-emphasize that last point: "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action"

See this FAQ "Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action."

Everything in the rules and FAQs, says you can Vital Strike from the back of a charging mount.


Ssalarn wrote:
If Spirited Charge requires the rider to spend a charge action while mounted, then the only way the feat works is if the rider is on the back of a colossal mount he can take a running start on. The only way the feat works and maintains consistency is with the understanding that the action economy has the mount charging while you maintain your normal action pool. This is consistent with all other rules on mounted combat.

[All quotes from the Combat section of the PRD.)

Ride By Attack: "Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action..."

Spirited Charge: "Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action..."

You might be able to convince your GM of your definition of not-charging-but-actually-charging-while-mounted for a regular mounted charge, but RAW you wouldn't be able to use Vital Strike in conjunction with Ride By Attack or Spirited Charge. In fact, if you wanted to rule lawyer me as a GM, I might accept your interpretation and not allow you to use the charge-related mounted feats at all, since you aren't charging, after all.

Though I would say it's straight up RAW that you ARE charging when your mount charges, after all, isn't that what these are saying?

Combat: Charge: Lances and Charge Attacks: "A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge."

Mounted Combat: Combat While Mounted: "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."

"When charging" and "in a charge" sound pretty straightforward to me.

My guess is the reason they don't say flat out that you charge when your mount charges to allow mounted archers, casters and mounted skirmishers to fight while their mounts charge. But it seems pretty clear to me that RAW says when your mount charges, and you make a melee attack at the end of the charge, then you also charged.

hoshi wrote:


But does " You do not need to roll " mean you don't need a move action, or a test is not required, but the move action req remains? I think its the latter

Does this answer your question?

Mounted Combat: Mounts in Combat: "Mounts that do not possess combat training (see the Handle Animal skill) are frightened by combat. If you don't dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a mount. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action."

So it looks like you need to use a move action to control an untrained mount in combat at the minimum, therefore no charges (or full attacks for archers, unless you interpret "in combat" as "in melee or getting attacked.") (On the other hand, I GM'd a scenario with a fighter on an untrained mount whose tactics were to charge if possible. That wouldn't be the first rules misinterpretation I've heard of in a PFS scenario.)

Mounted Combat: Combat while Mounted: "With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action."

But with a trained mount, you can control it with a free action, which can be combined with a full round action. Therefore you can charge while on a war trained mount.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Akerlof wrote:

Combat: Charge: Lances and Charge Attacks: "A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge."

You've misquoted the text for the lance. What it says is " A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount"

Also, see my post above in regards to all action economy with mounts.
There are specific rules for what happens "if" you make an attack at the end of your mount's charge. Meaning... You could choose not to attack when your mount is charging... Which means... You are not the one using the charge action, since attacking is specifically a component of charging.


Ssalarn wrote:
Akerlof wrote:

Combat: Charge: Lances and Charge Attacks: "A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge."

You've misquoted the text for the lance. What it says is " A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount"

Also, see my post above in regards to all action economy with mounts.
There are specific rules for what happens "if" you make an attack at the end of your mount's charge. Meaning... You could choose not to attack when your mount is charging... Which means... You are not the one using the charge action, since attacking is specifically a component of charging.

I copied the text directly from Paizo's site. Search for "lance" and you'll see.

And you're still ignoring all the other mentions of charging from horseback, even explicit use of the phrase "using the charge action."

How do Ride by Attack and Spirited Charge work if a character isn't taking a charge action while on a mount? Are they like the sniper feat that didn't do anything until it was errata'd it last week?

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Akerlof wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Akerlof wrote:

Combat: Charge: Lances and Charge Attacks: "A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge."

You've misquoted the text for the lance. What it says is " A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount"

Also, see my post above in regards to all action economy with mounts.
There are specific rules for what happens "if" you make an attack at the end of your mount's charge. Meaning... You could choose not to attack when your mount is charging... Which means... You are not the one using the charge action, since attacking is specifically a component of charging.

I copied the text directly from Paizo's site. Search for "lance" and you'll see.

And you're still ignoring all the other mentions of charging from horseback, even explicit use of the phrase "using the charge action."

How do Ride by Attack and Spirited Charge work if a character isn't taking a charge action while on a mount? Are they like the sniper feat that didn't do anything until it was errata'd it last week?

I copied my link directly from the equipment page where the lance is introduced. It is also a working link, which yours is not. Secondly,are you even reading my many, many posts in this thread?

"Mounts in combat: Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."

Your mount is the one charging, you reap the benefits. Very straightforward. The action economy is totally clear. Your mount is the one moving. It uses it's own actions to do it. Your mount can charge, and you have the option to attack at the end of it. You know what that means? You are not the one charging, otherwise attacking wouldn't be an option.

Spirited Charge and Ride-by attack either a)trigger off your mount's charge,
or b) don't work at all as written, unless you're on the back of a colossal mount and have room to take a running start.


Yeah, if your mount moves more then 5 ft you can only take an attack action. And you can certainly Vital Strike with that attack action. On the other hand, once your charging on horseback it's not so clear. In every case you described the action economy of mounted combat works the way you say it does, with the mount taking the move action and you moving at it's speed. But then the mount charges, the benefit of the charge is conferred to you, and we run into language like this: "When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.". Sounds relatively innocuous, but when you read feats like spirited charge and ride-by attack it confirms the worst. "When mounted and using the charge action..."

Whoa! Ninja'd!

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Akerlof wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Akerlof wrote:

Combat: Charge: Lances and Charge Attacks: "A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge."

You've misquoted the text for the lance. What it says is " A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount"

Also, see my post above in regards to all action economy with mounts.
There are specific rules for what happens "if" you make an attack at the end of your mount's charge. Meaning... You could choose not to attack when your mount is charging... Which means... You are not the one using the charge action, since attacking is specifically a component of charging.

I copied the text directly from Paizo's site. Search for "lance" and you'll see.

And you're still ignoring all the other mentions of charging from horseback, even explicit use of the phrase "using the charge action."

How do Ride by Attack and Spirited Charge work if a character isn't taking a charge action while on a mount? Are they like the sniper feat that didn't do anything until it was errata'd it last week?

I copied my link directly from the equipment page where the lance is introduced. It is also a working link, which yours is not. Secondly,are you even reading my many, many posts in this thread?

"Mounts in combat: Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge)."

Your mount is the one charging, you reap the benefits. Very straightforward. The action economy is totally clear. Your mount is the one moving. It uses it's own actions to do it. Your mount can charge, and you have the option to attack at the end of it. You know what that means? You are not the one charging, otherwise attacking wouldn't be an option it would be a requirement.

Spirited Charge and Ride-by attack either a)trigger off your mount's charge,
or b) don't work at all as written, unless you're on the back of a colossal mount and have room to take a running start.

We know that this is true because the mounted combat sections says " Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move."

And Movement During a Charge says "Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent"

If you aren't the one moving, you aren't the one taking the charge action.


PRD wrote:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

The RAW never says you can take a standard action after your mount moves, it says you can make a single melee attack. The RAW is not specific as to whether this attack is the 'attack action' or just a melee attack, not unlike the single melee attack granted by charge or spring attack. It's open for GM interpretation.

RAI, I think the devs intended for you to be able to take the 'attack action'.

RAI, It has been made abundantly clear that the devs did not intend charge and vital strike to mix.

So the answer is either "No" or "Ask your GM"

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Quantum Steve wrote:
PRD wrote:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

The RAW never says you can take a standard action after your mount moves, it says you can make a single melee attack. The RAW is not specific as to whether this attack is the 'attack action' or just a melee attack, not unlike the single melee attack granted by charge or spring attack. It's open for GM interpretation.

RAI, I think the devs intended for you to be able to take the 'attack action'.

RAI, It has been made abundantly clear that the devs did not intend charge and vital strike to mix.

So the answer is either "No" or "Ask your GM"

Which is why earlier I linked the Mounted Skirmisher feat for clarity, which says

"Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action."

It specifies the action type as an attack action, which as we know from the Vital Strike FAQ, is a specific type of standard action, the kind you need to be taking, in fact, to Vital Strike.


I wish ride-by attack and spirited didn't say what they say, but they do. This is the same thing people use to defend ragelancepunce. It seems much less overpowered to let vital strike work with a mounted charge if we compare it to ragelancepunce. Come on.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Grimmy wrote:

I wish ride-by attack and spirited didn't say what they say, but they do. This is the same thing people use to defend ragelancepunce. It seems much less overpowered to let vital strike work with a mounted charge if we compare it to ragelancepunce. Come on.

They just say "when mounted and using the charge action". If your mount is charging, you meet this qualifier but still have your own action economy to utilize.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

I'd also like to point out this FAQ, an official RAW source, btw, which says "One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging"
Which also wraps up the vagueness in the Spirited Charge feat since it specifically references the way it interacts with the lance. Since it uses the same wording as Ride-by Attack, it would seem to wrap that up as well. There are now no inconsistencies, anywhere that I'm aware of, and there is absolutely nothing preventing you from using Vital Strike and Spirited Charge from the back of a charging mount.


"when mounted and using the charge action."

That means not only are you mounted, you are also using the charge action.

I don't know how we get here, like you said, in every other aspect of mounted combat up until this point we have our own action economy apart from the mount. But there you have it.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Grimmy wrote:

"when mounted and using the charge action."

That means not only are you mounted, you are also using the charge action.

I don't know how we get here, like you said, in every other aspect of mounted combat up until this point we have our own action economy apart from the mount. But there you have it.

See my FAQ from SKR above. It points out that your statement is absolutely incorrect, and makes it clear in no uncertain terms that your mount is the one charging, not you.


Ssalarn wrote:

I'd also like to point out this FAQ an official RAW source, btw, which says "One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging"

Which also wraps up the vagueness in the Spirited Charge feat since it specifically references the way it interacts with the lance. Since it uses the same wording as Ride-by Attack, it would seem to wrap that up as well. There are now no inconsistencies, anywhere that I'm aware of, and there is absolutely nothing preventing you from using Vital Strike and Spirited Charge from the back of a charging mount.

That SKR quote from the FAQ is an excellent find and definitely gives you some ammo. As for those conclusions you drew after that however, I don't follow you at all. The wording in those feats and that one tricky sentence in mounted combat are still just as much of a problem as before. The SKR quote is just a clue as to the RAI. Those feats are still in print and contradict that.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Grimmy wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:

I'd also like to point out this FAQ an official RAW source, btw, which says "One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging"

Which also wraps up the vagueness in the Spirited Charge feat since it specifically references the way it interacts with the lance. Since it uses the same wording as Ride-by Attack, it would seem to wrap that up as well. There are now no inconsistencies, anywhere that I'm aware of, and there is absolutely nothing preventing you from using Vital Strike and Spirited Charge from the back of a charging mount.
That SKR quote from the FAQ is an excellent find and definitely gives you some ammo. As for those conclusions you drew after that however, I don't follow you at all. The wording in those feats and that one tricky sentence in mounted combat are still just as much of a problem as before. The SKR quote is just a clue as to the RAI. Those feats are still in print and contradict that.

Spirited Charge specifically references the damage done by a lance as doing triple instead of double. Since a lance only does double when your mount is charging...


Ssalarn wrote:


Which is why earlier I linked the Mounted Skirmisher feat for clarity, which says
"Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action."

It specifies the action type as an attack action, which as we know from the Vital Strike FAQ, is a specific type of standard action, the kind you need to be taking, in fact, to Vital Strike.

So, at your table, you would draw from a feat in a splat book to interpret the RAW. Fair enough.

Still doesn't change the ambiguity of the core rulebook.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Quantum Steve wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:


Which is why earlier I linked the Mounted Skirmisher feat for clarity, which says
"Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.

Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action."

It specifies the action type as an attack action, which as we know from the Vital Strike FAQ, is a specific type of standard action, the kind you need to be taking, in fact, to Vital Strike.

So, at your table, you would draw from a feat in a splat book to interpret the RAW. Fair enough.

Still doesn't change the ambiguity of the core rulebook.

FAQ's do though, see my post above. Also, the Advanced Player's Guide, where the Mounted Skirmisher feat is found, is not a "splat book". It is one of the core product line, and introduces other additional rules as well outside of those presented in the CRB.


You should check out the ragelancepounce thread from last year, it coincidentally got necro'd today. I read the whole thing over today and I remember reading it a year ago, just as frustrated then as I was today. I wanted to make the case you are making in that thread, I would still love to, but they will just throw this in my face:

Quote:

Spirited Charge (Combat)

Your mounted charge attacks deal a tremendous amount of damage.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action,

It's ironclad.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Grimmy wrote:

You should check out the ragelancepounce thread from last year, it coincidentally got necro'd today. I read the whole thing over today and I remember reading it a year ago, just as frustrated then as I was today. I wanted to make the case you are making in that thread, I would still love to, but they will just throw this in my face:

Quote:

Spirited Charge (Combat)

Your mounted charge attacks deal a tremendous amount of damage.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action,
It's ironclad.

And I just introduced you to the FAQ that was created in response to the old ragelancepounce, which clarifies that it is your mount taking the charge action, as stated in the official FAQ by Sean Reynolds. That's the whole reason ragelancepounce doesn't work, because your mount is the one charging, not you.


Quantum Steve wrote:

So, at your table, you would draw from a feat in a splat book to interpret the RAW. Fair enough.

Still doesn't change the ambiguity of the core rulebook.

Ssalarn wrote:


FAQ's do though, see my post above. Also, the Advanced Player's Guide, where the Mounted Skirmisher feat is found, is not a "splat book". It is one of the core product line, and introduces other additional rules as well outside of those presented in the CRB.

You mean this FAQ?

FAQ wrote:

Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?

No, for two reasons.

One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.

Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)

—Sean K Reynolds, 03/01/12

I'm sorry, but I don't see the relevance.


Ssalarn wrote:


I copied my link directly from the equipment page where the lance is introduced. It is also a working link, which yours is not. Secondly,are you even reading my many, many posts in this thread?

My mistake on the link, must have gotten an extraneous character in there somehow. Fortunately, you linked to the same thing:

Ssalarn wrote:


And Movement During a Charge says "Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent"

Read the second bolded point below that, a specific rule for using lances while mounted and charging:

Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.

As for the action economy, I read your reasoning, and agree. Yes, you get your move action standard action while you're mounted. But, that doesn't mean charging is not still a full round action. As I said, it looks like they worded it the way they did under the mounted combat section so that you could take your own full round or standard + move actions while your mount charges, like when you're an archer or a spell caster.

But I still don't see where it allows you to get all the benefits of a charge without taking the charge action along with your mount. The fact that the feats and rules for the lance and combat while mounted are worded in a way that outright says characters are taking a charge action while their mount charges.

Remember: A charge is not a move action + standard action. It is a special full round action that lets you move up to twice your speed without taking a move action and make 1 attack without using your standard action. Mounted combat allows you to use your mount's movement to fulfill the minimum distance moved, but is still a full round action that you are taking.

So for action economy: Your mount charges and you charge too, both get their full actions for the round. That's no different than: Your mount charges and you shoot arrows, or your mount charges and you draw and drink a potion, or your mount charges and you cast Sleep, or your mount moves and takes a standard action attack while you take a standard action attack.

Quote:


See my FAQ from SKR above. It points out that your statement is absolutely incorrect, and makes it clear in no uncertain terms that your mount is the one charging, not you.

I also read that FAQ section, look at the whole thing:

Sean K Reynolds, 03/01/12 wrote:


Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?
No, for two reasons.

One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.

Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)

The question is "If I have the Pounce ability and I charge..." He answered "when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging." That says you cannot charge on foot and gain the bonus damage from a lance, that does not say that you do not use a charge action while you are riding a charging mount to deliver a charge attack.

Still, no change in your action economy argument. You have to take a charge action to gain the benefit of a charge. In order to take a charge action while you're mounted, your mount also has to take the charge action. Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge make perfect sense. You do not have to take the charge action when your mount charges. Action economy is preserved.


Yeah that FAQ was a great catch by you. Not just the faq but specifically the little distinction he drew between riding a charging mount vs when you are charging. He put it in italics and everything.

Yet the whole thing wasn't really squashed right there. The ragelancepounce thing died down a little. People said it had been nerfed by that ruling. Correct me if I'm wrong but the consensus on the boards to this day is that Shawn ruled you can still ragelancepounce on a mount you just don't get the extra damage multiplier on your iteratives.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:

So, at your table, you would draw from a feat in a splat book to interpret the RAW. Fair enough.

Still doesn't change the ambiguity of the core rulebook.

Ssalarn wrote:


FAQ's do though, see my post above. Also, the Advanced Player's Guide, where the Mounted Skirmisher feat is found, is not a "splat book". It is one of the core product line, and introduces other additional rules as well outside of those presented in the CRB.

You mean this FAQ?

FAQ wrote:

Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?

No, for two reasons.

One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.

Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)

—Sean K Reynolds, 03/01/12

I'm sorry, but I don't see the relevance.

It's totally relevant.

FAQ wrote:
a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.

He says you don't get extra lance damage when you charge.

Yeah, maybe he means "when you charge normally" or "when you charge on foot", something like that, you know. "when you charge without the aid of your mount."

But if you take what he's saying in a strictly literal sense, it's constant with what ssallaarn is saying.

You get extra lance damage when you ride a charging mount, but not when you charge. Therefore, when you get extra lance damage you are not charging.

Therefore your attack at the end of your horses charge is a standard action and qualifies for vital strike.

Simple, right?

Except we have these feats that are in print that contradict this. So... I dunno.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Lookie here:
I'm just going to highlight the important part of this here but I've linked in SKR's entire quote for reference.

SKR wrote:


"If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge. "

Pretty, uh, pretty straightforward there. Not a whole lot of room for equivocation.


YES!! Nice.


Vital strike with Spirited Charge/charge/Sping attack....

By the rules it dose not work and it has beed said that it dose not work over and over in more threads that I can count....

Why?.?.? Well my anwser is simple it the way a lance/brace works.

Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.

Brace: If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character

So if Vital striked(3) and Spirted Charged will mounted with lance and it worked it you do for medium guy it would do(Big Freaken number)
3d8x3+3d8+BFNx3= 6d8+BFNx3= to much for a single shot.
And you change the x3 to x4 if you crtical.

"So if lance worked like this"

Lance: deal a extra damge dice that is not multiplide when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.

And you change Spirited Charge to this
Spirited Charge: deal a extra damge dice equal to the weapon that is not multiplide when used from the back of a charging mount.

And you change Brace to
Brace: If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal extra damage dice equal to the weapon that is not multipled on a crtitical on a successful hit against a charging target.

Then it would come in to the range of fairness and would look more like this.

Med wielder,Lance,Chargeing,Spirited Charge,Vital Strike Chian (3)+BFN
or
1d8+5d8+BFN that on crittical is (2d8+2BFN)+5d8 or 7d8+(BFNx2)

And if work like that then you could Vital strike and any of this list charge, Ride-by, fly-by, swim-by, Srping Attack.

You cold even let vital strike it work on cleave and great cleave ifit work like this

Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally includeing extra damage dice and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach dueing base weapon dice damage +BFN . You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.

So it only dose the extra dice against the first taget and not the latter ones.

So why do they not do this well they are stuck in 3.5 rule set handed down to them by WoTC. And make this changes would make the game run more like 4th ed way of running it. And lastly tradition becuse Lance has all ways done more more damge while mointed since 1st ed D&D.


Tom you can't just say it doesn't work because it's too much damage the question is does it work as written.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Tom S 820 wrote:
**stuff**

Unfortunately, you just put a giant wall of text in front of our victory dance, so I'm going to re-post it here:

In this FAQ SKR makes it clear that a lance only does double damage from the back of a charging mount. In this quote SKR specifically states "If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge".
We also know from the Mounted Skirmisher feat that normal is "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action".
the Vital Strike FAQ says " Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action."

What does that mean? It means you still have your full complement of actions, you can Vital Strike with a lance from the back of a charging mount, and you can do 4x damage with Vital Strike and Spirited Charge or 6x damage with Greater Vital Strike.


Small nitpick but I don't think it's correct to express the extra damage from the vital strike as an increased multiplier. It should just be an additional dice of damage.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Grimmy wrote:
Small nitpick but I don't think it's correct to express the extra damage from the vital strike as an increased multiplier. It should just be an additional dice of damage.

Sorry, I did the correct math earlier in the thread, but I believe it should look like:

Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited charge + 1x weapon Vital Strike + 3x STR and Enhancements + precision and weapon properties

or

Greater Vital Strike + Spirited Charge= 3x weapon Spirited Charge + 3x weapon Greater Vital Strike + 3x STR and Enhancement + precision and weapon properties.

I think that's more accurate.


Yup. In light of SKR's comment I can't see any reason that doesn't work.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Grimmy wrote:
Yup. In light of SKR's comment I can't see any reason that doesn't work.

I like it, it allows the cavalier to utilize his full suite of abilities without absolutely having to have the mounted skirmisher feat. It also opens up the possibility of having a primarily ranged cavalier who can still have a potent melee attack for a five feat investment. Which is cool.


I like it because it's finally something cool you can do with vital strike. Fingers crossed though, for some reason VS is the redheaded stepchild of feats.


Grimmy wrote:
Tom you can't just say it doesn't work because it's too much damage the question is does it work as written.

But I can... cause to much damage in single shot breaks the balence of the game witch is why keep say no it dose not work. So if you bring the damage total down it would be fair. I mean right now how many time do you kill a target before you roll dice. The BFBx3 just because you charge is what breaking it not a extra 2 dice or 3 dice of damage...

I should on average roll 20 to threaten a crittal once every 20 rolls. That let me do form x2-x3-x4 damge. If hit hit the target AC again.
This dose not always happen.

Just because I charged dose not mean I should automaticly do x2 or x3 more damage. It mess up the balence of the game to where you can one shot a monster or pc that above there CR.

A fighter level 1 with a lance, monted Combat, Spired charge, STR 18
dose 3d8+18 at level 1 with just hit on a charge. This auto kill most CR 2s or less before you roll dice. And it dose 4d8+24 on critacl This auto kill most CR 3s before dice are rolled. It make the game to simple. Or to dealy. and it only get worst as you level.

Silver Crusade

The whole debate is cleared up if you read the Mythic Vital Strike Feat which says you can charge and use VItal Strike. Which mans if you dont have Myhic Viatal strike you cannot charge and and use vital stike together.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Tom S 820 wrote:

**Stuff**

There are lots of builds that can one-hit level one challenges. Them's the breaks. A Vital Striking barbarian with an Earthbreaker can do 4d6+7 on every hit easily and 8d6+21 on a crit, which will also kill any CR 1 challenge and most CR 2's. It's how it impacts the balance of the game over the whole level spread that makes the difference, and in this case, it mostly just gets cavaliers back on par with the other powerful combat damage builds like Archers and Two-Handed Fighters.


Ssalarn wrote:
Tom S 820 wrote:
**stuff**

Unfortunately, you just put a giant wall of text in front of our victory dance, so I'm going to re-post it here:

In this FAQ SKR makes it clear that a lance only does double damage from the back of a charging mount. In this quote SKR specifically states "If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge".
We also know from the Mounted Skirmisher feat that normal is "If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action".
the Vital Strike FAQ says " Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action."

What does that mean? It means you still have your full complement of actions, you can Vital Strike with a lance from the back of a charging mount, and you can do 4x damage with Vital Strike and Spirited Charge or 6x damage with Greater Vital Strike.

Using that interpretation, the barbarian can make a full attack any time any character charges, not just when the barbarian charges. My paladin buddy just charged? That's "a" charge, I get to make a full attack! My enemy just charged me? That's "a" charge, I get to make a full attack!

Or you could realize that the Greater Beast Totem ability is just summarizing the pounce UMR, and the pounce UMR says says "Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."

Also, the mounted combat rules say If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack.

GBT gives you pounce.
Pounce allows YOU to make a full attack when YOU make a charge.
If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge.
The mounted combat rules specifically say that you only get ONE attack if your mount charges.
GBT does NOT say "when the barbarian is mounted and the MOUNT makes a charge, SHE may make a full attack."

Therefore, GBT-rage-mount-pounce does not work.

Read the whole post it dose not work... Unless you change the rules... so no victory dance

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Lou Diamond wrote:
The whole debate is cleared up if you read the Mythic Vital Strike Feat which says you can charge and use VItal Strike. Which mans if you dont have Myhic Viatal strike you cannot charge and and use vital stike together.

Did you just skip reading any portion of the thread all together to come in and drop your opinion? We covered the fact that Vital Strike cannot be used in conjunction with a charge, but when your mount charges You are not charging as stated by SKR and referenced in numerous FAQ links and posts throughout the thread so far. Scroll up like 6 or 7 posts and it'll be laid out for you all nice and neat.

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

Tom S 820 wrote:

***Read the whole post it dose not work... Unless you change the rules... so no victory dance

I did read the whole post, and everything works exactly like I said it did. There is absolutely nothing in there that contradicts anything I've said, and in fact, everything supports it.

Sean does mention that in mounted combat you can only make one attack. We already knew this, that's what the Mounted Skirmisher feat is for. We know from the reference in the Mounted Skirmisher feat that that one attack is the attack action, which you can use to Vital Strike. So everything works exactly like I said.


Lou Diamond wrote:
The whole debate is cleared up if you read the Mythic Vital Strike Feat which says you can charge and use VItal Strike. Which mans if you dont have Myhic Viatal strike you cannot charge and and use vital stike together.

I think everyone agrees you can't charge and use vital strike. This is about whether you count as charging when the mount you are riding charges. SKR just said no, you do not.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

So we're now at being unable to use pounce, ride by attack or spirited charge? Ok...


Ssalarn wrote:

Lookie here:

I'm just going to highlight the important part of this here but I've linked in SKR's entire quote for reference.
SKR wrote:


"If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge. "
Pretty, uh, pretty straightforward there. Not a whole lot of room for equivocation.

Congratulations, you are right and I am wrong. You do not charge when your mount charges. The full quote:

SKR wrote:


GBT gives you pounce.
Pounce allows YOU to make a full attack when YOU make a charge.
If YOU are mounted, the MOUNT is making the charge, YOU are NOT making a charge.
The mounted combat rules specifically say that you only get ONE attack if your mount charges.
GBT does NOT say "when the barbarian is mounted and the MOUNT makes a charge, SHE may make a full attack."

Therefore, GBT-rage-mount-pounce does not work.

So you cannot ragelancepounce. Also:

-Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge do not work since they specifically refer to being mounted and using the charge action simultaneously.
-You can use Vital Strike when your mount charges and you get the lance charge bonus.
-But you still can't stack Vital Strike with Spirited Charge, since you can't Spirited Charge by RAW.
-Even if you could somehow Spirited Charge, you STILL couldn't stack it with Vital Strike since RAW states you have to Spirited Charge with a charge action.
-And the FAQ says you can't combine Vital Strike with charge.

Jason Bulmahn, 11/30/12 wrote:


Can Vital Strike be used with Spring Attack? Can Vital Strike be used on a charge?
No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike

Congratulations on your victory, Pyrrhus.


Ahh this is about whether the virtual charge (that gives you bonuses to hit and increased damage) counts as a charge for determining if you can do a vital strike modifier to the attack action and whether you can stack a ton of multipliers.

Definitely a grey area but so much about the Vital Strike and Mounted Combat rules are such grey areas.

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