How does Vital Strike work with Spirited Charge


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Paizo Employee Design Manager

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How does Vital Strike work with Spirited Charge and a lance when used by a cavalier on his mount? Remember, a mounted cavalier can still attack as a standard action while gaining the benefits of his mounts charge. Being able to hit for x6 damage (or x12 with Greater Vital Strike) at your full BAB and then use your move action to switch to a non-reach weapon, draw a potion, or what have you is a worthwhile opening tactic and actually makes the feat chain fairly potent, even for a character who otherwise might have little use for it.


It doesn't I think, spirited Charge uses the Charge action, Vital Strike needs a standard action (complicatedly knowns as an attack action) and You can't do both, for the same reason You can't charge and VS.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

yar. vital strike + charge no workie.


Even if spirited charge did use the attack action, how would vital strike get you to x6 damage? It would just add the base weapons damage dice to the total one time.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Your mount charges. You still have the ability to attack as a standard action while gaining the benefits of your mounts charge. Vital Strike has you roll the weapon damage dice twice. Striking with a lance from the back of a charging mount deals double damage. Spirited Charge deals triple. This is not a crit, and so nothing in Vital Strike or anywhere else I can find says it wouldn't be multipled like everything else.
And again you are not the one charging. Your mount is. You still have a full complement of actions, and can choose to attack as a standard action, meaning you can Vital Strike.


Mucronis wrote:
It doesn't I think, spirited Charge uses the Charge action, Vital Strike needs a standard action (complicatedly knowns as an attack action) and You can't do both, for the same reason You can't charge and VS.

A mounted character still has their standard action and move action(along with all the other actions they haven't used yet), as the charge action is used by the mount.

As for the damage, I do believe you would only do x4 on a Spirited Charge Vital Strike(3D8 + 1D8 from vital strike to a max of 3D8 + 3D8 for Greater Vital). I'm not sure where it says it in the book, but I do believe that's how the multiplying aspect works for damage.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Mucronis wrote:
It doesn't I think, spirited Charge uses the Charge action, Vital Strike needs a standard action (complicatedly knowns as an attack action) and You can't do both, for the same reason You can't charge and VS.

A mounted character still has their standard action and move action(along with all the other actions they haven't used yet), as the charge action is used by the mount.

As for the damage, I do believe you would only do x4 on a Spirited Charge Vital Strike(3D8 + 1D8 from vital strike to a max of 3D8 + 3D8 for Greater Vital). I'm not sure where it says it in the book, but I do believe that's how the multiplying aspect works for damage.

The lance and Spirited charge both multiply your total damage though. Is there any reason they wouldn't multiply the extra damage from Vital Strike?


Ssalarn wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Mucronis wrote:
It doesn't I think, spirited Charge uses the Charge action, Vital Strike needs a standard action (complicatedly knowns as an attack action) and You can't do both, for the same reason You can't charge and VS.

A mounted character still has their standard action and move action(along with all the other actions they haven't used yet), as the charge action is used by the mount.

As for the damage, I do believe you would only do x4 on a Spirited Charge Vital Strike(3D8 + 1D8 from vital strike to a max of 3D8 + 3D8 for Greater Vital). I'm not sure where it says it in the book, but I do believe that's how the multiplying aspect works for damage.

The lance and Spirited charge both multiply your total damage though. Is there any reason they wouldn't multiply the extra damage from Vital Strike?

The best I can find is the damage section from the PRD.

Quote:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

So basically you have multiples from two different sources, so you would deal triple damage from Spirited Charge, then add another from Vital Strike.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Mucronis wrote:
It doesn't I think, spirited Charge uses the Charge action, Vital Strike needs a standard action (complicatedly knowns as an attack action) and You can't do both, for the same reason You can't charge and VS.

You are not taking the charge action when your mount charges though.

Your mount is. You still have a full complement of actions. It is impossible for a character to use the charge action from the back of a mount. his mount charges, and he reaps the rewards and penalties. You can take a full attack action from the back of a charging mount. You can take a move and standard from the back of a charging mount. Therefor, you can Vital Strike from the back of a charging mount while using a Lance, which deals double damage from the back of a charging mount, and Spirited Charge, which ups that to triple damage. If Vital Strike has you roll the weapon dice twice before adding any modifiers, and then your damage is tripled, you end up with... x6 damage right?
For Reference:
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

Paizo Employee Design Manager

CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Mucronis wrote:
It doesn't I think, spirited Charge uses the Charge action, Vital Strike needs a standard action (complicatedly knowns as an attack action) and You can't do both, for the same reason You can't charge and VS.

A mounted character still has their standard action and move action(along with all the other actions they haven't used yet), as the charge action is used by the mount.

As for the damage, I do believe you would only do x4 on a Spirited Charge Vital Strike(3D8 + 1D8 from vital strike to a max of 3D8 + 3D8 for Greater Vital). I'm not sure where it says it in the book, but I do believe that's how the multiplying aspect works for damage.

The lance and Spirited charge both multiply your total damage though. Is there any reason they wouldn't multiply the extra damage from Vital Strike?

The best I can find is the damage section from the PRD.

Quote:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

So basically you have multiples from two different sources, so you would deal triple damage from Spirited Charge, then add another from Vital Strike.

But Vital Strike specifically says it is applied prior to other modifiers. So if you're tripling a double... I guess by that logic it would be quadruple, no matter which way you looked at it. And then 5 times damage for Greater Vital Strike, again, no matter which way you look at it. Still decent though.


Ssalarn wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Mucronis wrote:
It doesn't I think, spirited Charge uses the Charge action, Vital Strike needs a standard action (complicatedly knowns as an attack action) and You can't do both, for the same reason You can't charge and VS.

A mounted character still has their standard action and move action(along with all the other actions they haven't used yet), as the charge action is used by the mount.

As for the damage, I do believe you would only do x4 on a Spirited Charge Vital Strike(3D8 + 1D8 from vital strike to a max of 3D8 + 3D8 for Greater Vital). I'm not sure where it says it in the book, but I do believe that's how the multiplying aspect works for damage.

The lance and Spirited charge both multiply your total damage though. Is there any reason they wouldn't multiply the extra damage from Vital Strike?

The best I can find is the damage section from the PRD.

Quote:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

So basically you have multiples from two different sources, so you would deal triple damage from Spirited Charge, then add another from Vital Strike.
But Vital Strike specifically says it is applied prior to other modifiers. So if you're tripling a double... I guess by that logic it would be quadruple.

Oh, yeah. Sorry. Must have missed that part, but the math is still the same. You still, however, get the additional strength damage from the charge as only the Vital Strike damage doesn't get the strength. =D


Wait... do vital strike works with ride by attack?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Nicos wrote:
Wait... do vital strike works with ride by attack?

RAW it sure should.


Ssalarn wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Mucronis wrote:
It doesn't I think, spirited Charge uses the Charge action, Vital Strike needs a standard action (complicatedly knowns as an attack action) and You can't do both, for the same reason You can't charge and VS.

A mounted character still has their standard action and move action(along with all the other actions they haven't used yet), as the charge action is used by the mount.

As for the damage, I do believe you would only do x4 on a Spirited Charge Vital Strike(3D8 + 1D8 from vital strike to a max of 3D8 + 3D8 for Greater Vital). I'm not sure where it says it in the book, but I do believe that's how the multiplying aspect works for damage.

The lance and Spirited charge both multiply your total damage though. Is there any reason they wouldn't multiply the extra damage from Vital Strike?

Additional damage dice are never multiplied. Also, multipliers don't multiply each other.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Irontruth wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Mucronis wrote:
It doesn't I think, spirited Charge uses the Charge action, Vital Strike needs a standard action (complicatedly knowns as an attack action) and You can't do both, for the same reason You can't charge and VS.

A mounted character still has their standard action and move action(along with all the other actions they haven't used yet), as the charge action is used by the mount.

As for the damage, I do believe you would only do x4 on a Spirited Charge Vital Strike(3D8 + 1D8 from vital strike to a max of 3D8 + 3D8 for Greater Vital). I'm not sure where it says it in the book, but I do believe that's how the multiplying aspect works for damage.

The lance and Spirited charge both multiply your total damage though. Is there any reason they wouldn't multiply the extra damage from Vital Strike?
Additional damage dice are never multiplied. Also, multipliers don't multiply each other.

Rules reference please! CSB already pointed the rule that multiples stack to the next multiple. Two doubles equals a triple, etc.


seems i was wrong then, but if it is the mount that is charging, and You are not, then (somewhat pedantic i know) You are NOT charging are you, so no spirited charge.

As the evidence has been put forth, it does seem You can use VS with a mounted charge.
And by the wording of Ride-By attack, that would work too (as it would still be the mount doing the charge). Nice find Ssalarn =)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Mucronis wrote:

seems i was wrong then, but if it is the mount that is charging, and You are not, then (somewhat pedantic i know) You are NOT charging are you, so no spirited charge.

As the evidence has been put forth, it does seem You can use VS with a mounted charge.
And by the wording of Ride-By attack, that would work too (as it would still be the mount doing the charge). Nice find Ssalarn =)

Thank you!

Also, if your mount charging isn't enough to trigger Spirited Charge (I feel confident it is since the Mounted combat section of the Combat chapter says you gain all the benefits and penalties of your mounts charge) then Spirited Charge does exactly nothing.

Pretty sure that the current rules and action economy give you triple damage by using Vital Strike from the back of a charging mount with a lance, quadruple with Spirited Charge, and pentuple? 5x damage with Greater Vital Strike. Meaning Vital Strike is a rocking feat chain for cavaliers, since they can lead in with the lance, Vital Strike, and then use their move action to switch out to a non-reach melee weapon. With Quickdraw you even have time to holster the lance instead of just dropping it!

Now if only there were a viable way to get Coordinated Charge as your Tactician feat...

**EDIT** In looking at it again, I'm think it's closer to 7x weapon damage with Greater Vital Strike. You're either x3+4, or tripling a quadruple, which I think gets you to the same place either way by the Pathfinder multiplier rules...


Mucronis wrote:
seems i was wrong then, but if it is the mount that is charging, and You are not, then (somewhat pedantic i know) You are NOT charging are you, so no spirited charge.

I don't think it's pedantic. You are not Charging, but you do receive the benefits of a charge, and are treated as though you charged, if you are mounted on a charging creature.

Basically, you get the benefits and penalties without the action cost.


Ssalarn wrote:
Mucronis wrote:

seems i was wrong then, but if it is the mount that is charging, and You are not, then (somewhat pedantic i know) You are NOT charging are you, so no spirited charge.

As the evidence has been put forth, it does seem You can use VS with a mounted charge.
And by the wording of Ride-By attack, that would work too (as it would still be the mount doing the charge). Nice find Ssalarn =)

Thank you!

Also, if your mount charging isn't enough to trigger Spirited Charge (I feel confident it is since the Mounted combat section of the Combat chapter says you gain all the benefits and penalties of your mounts charge) then Spirited Charge does exactly nothing.

Pretty sure that the current rules and action economy give you triple damage by using Vital Strike from the back of a charging mount with a lance, quadruple with Spirited Charge, and pentuple? 5x damage with Greater Vital Strike. Meaning Vital Strike is a rocking feat chain for cavaliers, since they can lead in with the lance, Vital Strike, and then use their move action to switch out to a non-reach melee weapon. With Quickdraw you even have time to holster the lance instead of just dropping it!

Now if only there were a viable way to get Coordinated Charge as your Tactician feat...

**EDIT** In looking at it again, I'm think it's closer to 7x weapon damage with Greater Vital Strike. You're either x3+4, or tripling a quadruple, which I think gets you to the same place either way by the Pathfinder multiplier rules...

It would be x6. x4 from greater, then triple by spirited(4+3-1=6, with the -1 being the initial weapon die).

And yeah, if you, specifically, have to charge, then there's a bit of a problem with Spirited Charge, as I'm not sure how you're supposed to charge on a mount without it charging.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

CrystalSpellblade wrote:

It would be x6. x4 from greater, then triple by spirited(4+3-1=6, with the -1 being the initial weapon die).

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. x6 damage then when using Greater Vital Strike on a charge. Or more specifically... What?

6x weapon damage + 3x STR mod and Enhancement bonuses + precision and weapon abilities? Is that about right?


Ssalarn wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Mucronis wrote:
It doesn't I think, spirited Charge uses the Charge action, Vital Strike needs a standard action (complicatedly knowns as an attack action) and You can't do both, for the same reason You can't charge and VS.

A mounted character still has their standard action and move action(along with all the other actions they haven't used yet), as the charge action is used by the mount.

As for the damage, I do believe you would only do x4 on a Spirited Charge Vital Strike(3D8 + 1D8 from vital strike to a max of 3D8 + 3D8 for Greater Vital). I'm not sure where it says it in the book, but I do believe that's how the multiplying aspect works for damage.

The lance and Spirited charge both multiply your total damage though. Is there any reason they wouldn't multiply the extra damage from Vital Strike?
Additional damage dice are never multiplied. Also, multipliers don't multiply each other.
Rules reference please! CSB already pointed the rule that multiples stack to the next multiple. Two doubles equals a triple, etc.

Page 179. Extra damage dice are never multiplied.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Irontruth wrote:


Page 179. Extra damage dice are never multiplied.

That's referring to magic weapon properties, but even so we already determined that it makes no functional difference for Vital Strike since it's either 3x weapon + 1, or doubling a triple, which is still x4. And it actually result in you getting more damage from Greater Vital Strike, since you'd get 3x weapon + 4x weapon for 7x damage instead of tripling a quadruple for x6.

**EDIT**
Just realized that it's actually 3x weapon (Spirited Charge) + 3x weapon (Greater Vital Strike is x4, but both the x3 and x4 are going off the one original die), so no matter which way you cut it, Viatl Strike nets you x4 and Greater Vital Strike nets you x6, +3x STR and Enhancement + precision and weapon properties.


Actually, it doesn't denote any kind of source from the damage dice at all. All it says is that extra damage dice are never multiplied. Full stop.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Irontruth wrote:
Actually, it doesn't denote any kind of source from the damage dice at all. All it says is that extra damage dice are never multiplied. Full stop.

Noted, still doesn't change much, other than boosting the total damage for Greater Vital Strike by an additional damage die.

**EDIT**
Just realized that it's actually 3x weapon (Spirited Charge) + 3x weapon (Greater Vital Strike is x4, but both the x3 and x4 are going off the one original die), so no matter which way you cut it, Vital Strike nets you x4 and Greater Vital Strike nets you x6, +3x STR and Enhancement + precision and weapon properties.


Irontruth wrote:
Actually, it doesn't denote any kind of source from the damage dice at all. All it says is that extra damage dice are never multiplied. Full stop.

We're not multiplying extra damage dice. We're giving you the total amount of damage. So take a +1 Flaming Lance and say 10 Str. Normally, it deals 1D8 + 1 + 1D6 damage. On a charge, it deals 2D8 + 2 + (1D6 Fire). On a Spirited Charge, we deal 3D8 + 3 + (1D6 Fire) damage. On a Greater Vital Strike Spirited Charge, we deal 6D8 + 3 + (1D6 Fire) damage. Breaking it down even further, we get initial 1D8 + 1 + 1D6 Fire, then 2D8 + 2 from the Spirited Charge, then 3D8 from the Greater Vital Strike.


Umm, where does it say that a mounted cavalier can attack as a standard action after his mount has charged? In reading mounted combat, it seems to me that if your mount charges, you have charged. Which also makes logical sense.


You are modified as if you charged, but you did not take the charge action yourself. Your mount charging does not use up your actions, unless you needed to use an action to control your mount.


CrystalSpellblade wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Actually, it doesn't denote any kind of source from the damage dice at all. All it says is that extra damage dice are never multiplied. Full stop.
We're not multiplying extra damage dice. We're giving you the total amount of damage. So take a +1 Flaming Lance and say 10 Str. Normally, it deals 1D8 + 1 + 1D6 damage. On a charge, it deals 2D8 + 2 + (1D6 Fire). On a Spirited Charge, we deal 3D8 + 3 + (1D6 Fire) damage. On a Greater Vital Strike Spirited Charge, we deal 6D8 + 3 + (1D6 Fire) damage. Breaking it down even further, we get initial 1D8 + 1 + 1D6 Fire, then 2D8 + 2 from the Spirited Charge, then 3D8 from the Greater Vital Strike.

Not every post in a thread is a response to every other post in that thread.


Irontruth wrote:
You are modified as if you charged, but you did not take the charge action yourself. Your mount charging does not use up your actions, unless you needed to use an action to control your mount.

So what you're saying is if my mount charges, I can still make a full-attack at the end of the charge? I mean if it's not using my actions, then this should be true, should it not?


Martiln wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
You are modified as if you charged, but you did not take the charge action yourself. Your mount charging does not use up your actions, unless you needed to use an action to control your mount.
So what you're saying is if my mount charges, I can still make a full-attack at the end of the charge? I mean if it's not using my actions, then this should be true, should it not?

Only if you have the Mounted Skirmisher Feat.

Quote:
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

And IronTruth, sorry, I thought you were trying to say the damage was wrong.

Edit: My quote is from the Mounted Combat section of the PRD. Page 201 of the CRB.


Martiln wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
You are modified as if you charged, but you did not take the charge action yourself. Your mount charging does not use up your actions, unless you needed to use an action to control your mount.
So what you're saying is if my mount charges, I can still make a full-attack at the end of the charge? I mean if it's not using my actions, then this should be true, should it not?

The mounted combat section on page 201-202 is longer than my post, I suggest reading that first.


Martiln is getting to the crux of my point.

@CrystalSpellBlade
While you are quoting part of the Mounted Combat section, how does what you have quoted apply to a charge? What you are quoting is saying, if your mount takes more than a 5 foot step, you only get a single standard action; ie, an attack.

Reading further, if your mount charges and you attack at the end, you take all the bonuses and penalties of a charge; ie, you charge.


@Treemasha

Martiln was asking if he could take a full attack action after a charge. I pointed out the movement rule on a mount to say he couldn't, unless he had Mounted Skirmisher.

You still have your swift, move, and standard action after your mount charges. All charging on your mount does is allow you to gain the benefits and penalties of having charged without actually having done so. You even still receive the penalties if you don't attack at the end of the mounts charge even though you didn't charge.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Treesmasha Toothpickmaker wrote:

Martiln is getting to the crux of my point.

@CrystalSpellBlade
While you are quoting part of the Mounted Combat section, how does what you have quoted apply to a charge? What you are quoting is saying, if your mount takes more than a 5 foot step, you only get a single standard action; ie, an attack.

Reading further, if your mount charges and you attack at the end, you take all the bonuses and penalties of a charge; ie, you charge.

Read mounted combat. Your mount can double move and you can still take the full attack action. If you have an animal companion, you each have two full sets of actions. Why would this be any different if you're riding your animal companion? The rules reference for a charging mount also says "IF you attack at the end of your mounts charge..." meaning you have other options. Meaning what? That you are not using the charge action, your mount is, otherwise there would be no if, there would be a when.


@Ssalarn

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. Good catch on that. My bad.

Edit: And the post I was making that towards is gone. You can full attack on a mount after it has moved more than 5-feet with a ranged attack, otherwise, you need mounted skirmisher.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

CrystalSpellblade wrote:

@Treemasha

Martiln was asking if he could take a full attack action after a charge. I pointed out the movement rule on a mount to say he couldn't, unless he had Mounted Skirmisher.

You still have your swift, move, and standard action after your mount charges. All charging on your mount does is allow you to gain the benefits and penalties of having charged without actually having done so. You even still receive the penalties if you don't attack at the end of the mounts charge even though you didn't charge.

You only need Mounted Skirmisher to full attack with a melee weapon. Anyone who can make the Ride check to steer with their knees can full attack with a bow while their mount's moving. You could even have your mount charge, full attack with your bow in the middle of the movement, and then have your mount finish the charge and attack with a natural weapon.


Treesmasha Toothpickmaker wrote:

Martiln is getting to the crux of my point.

@CrystalSpellBlade
While you are quoting part of the Mounted Combat section, how does what you have quoted apply to a charge? What you are quoting is saying, if your mount takes more than a 5 foot step, you only get a single standard action; ie, an attack.

Reading further, if your mount charges and you attack at the end, you take all the bonuses and penalties of a charge; ie, you charge.

Reading the section, they could have condensed a whole paragraph if that was their intent. Since they didn't, but instead use several sentences to explain the differences between charging and having your mount charge, it's very safe to assume the writers intent is that you are not in fact charging.

It looks like a duck.
It sounds like a duck.
But it's actually a small goose.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

CrystalSpellblade wrote:

@Ssalarn

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. Good catch on that. My bad.

Edit: And the post I was making that towards is gone. You can full attack on a mount after it has moved more than 5-feet with a ranged attack, otherwise, you need mounted skirmisher.

Sorry having issues posting from my smartphone :)


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Okay, it was nice of folk to drop links to relavent rules, however, I think better seing it all put together. I initially thought, WOW Ssalarn has come up with an amazing combo here! I was rethinking all sorts of character concepts. So, I dropped the rules in a word document and started looking at them together. I do not think it can work together. The quick answer of Vital Strike and Charge cannot be used together seems to apply.

Here are the rules.

Mounted Skirmisher:
PRD wrote:

Mounted Skirmisher (Combat)

You are adept at attacking from upon a swift moving steed.
Prerequisites: Ride rank 14, Mounted Combat, Trick Riding.
Benefit: If your mount moves its speed or less, you can still take a full-attack action.
Normal: If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only take an attack action.

Character can take a full-round action after your mount moves. However...

Charge:
PRD wrote:

Charge

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.

Charging is a special full round action. It is not move and attack... But, it is the horse charging and not the rider...

excerpt from mounted combat :
PRD, mounted combat section wrote:
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

At first, this seems to agree with the fact it is the horse charging and not the rider! But let's look at Spirited Charge.

Spirited Charge :
PRD wrote:

Spirited Charge (Combat)

Your mounted charge attacks deal a tremendous amount of damage.
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

"When mounted and using the charge action..." Reading this, it seems to imply that there is an expenditure of a "Charge Action". And that is a special full round attack. And the Character has the feat, so it is his expenditure,

Which brings us to the old whammy of vital strike ...

Vital Strike :
PRD wrote:

Vital Strike (Combat)

You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

And not using them in charges.

FAQ on Vital Strike :
FAQ wrote:
Can Vital Strike be used with Spring Attack? Can Vital Strike be used on a charge?No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.

So, in conclusion, I would say that Vital Strike cannot be combined with Spirited Charge. Despite Mounted Skirmisher.

Too bad, I wanted this to work :P

Greg


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Greg Wasson wrote:
Snip

I don't think you can really use the wording of a feat, to say, while on a mount while charging, the mounted character is making a charge action. Despite what the feat says, the rules for mounted combat state:

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

None of this implies that a charge action is being used. Futhermore the charge action requirements, are impossible to complete while mounted.

For example to get the mount to charge a move action is required if a ride check is failed. So if the rider was using a charge action, he no longer has a move action to control his mount. see

Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat.

I just assume the feats are poorly worded, as that is more likely than the rules for mounted combat being completely wrong

Paizo Employee Design Manager

If Spirited Charge requires the rider to spend a charge action while mounted, then the only way the feat works is if the rider is on the back of a colossal mount he can take a running start on. The only way the feat works and maintains consistency is with the understanding that the action economy has the mount charging while you maintain your normal action pool. This is consistent with all other rules on mounted combat.


hoshi wrote:
Greg Wasson wrote:
Snip

Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for horses or ponies trained for combat.

Emphasis mine. It doesn't take a move action to charge with a mount unless the animal isn't trained for combat.

Not that this has any bearing on the rest of your argument, I just thought I'd point that out.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Spirited Charge does say

"When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance)."

So the person with the feat has to be on a mount and has to use the charge action to gain the benifits of Spirited Charge.

Ssalarn wrote:
The only way the feat works and maintains consistency is with the understanding that the action economy has the mount charging while you maintain your normal action pool.

True but in this case it requires both the mount and rider, working in tandem, to both charge so the rider can gain the benifits.

The mount must use its action pool to charge and the rider must also use his action pool to charge.


Spirited Charge would also work if you read mounted combat as "when the mount is charging you are charging." Which does a better job of maintaining consistency than to say you have taken no actions as your mount moved, but you are not allowed to full attack at the end of the mounts movement.


@Pharmalade
I would argue the intent is that you cannot charge into battle with an untrained mount. However, you could enter combat through normal movement providing you controlled your mount.


Treesmasha Toothpickmaker wrote:
Spirited Charge would also work if you read mounted combat as "when the mount is charging you are charging." Which does a better job of maintaining consistency than to say you have taken no actions as your mount moved, but you are not allowed to full attack at the end of the mounts movement.

Personally, I think that would solve a lot of problems.

Winston Colt wrote:

True but in this case it requires both the mount and rider, working in tandem, to both charge so the rider can gain the benifits.

The mount must use its action pool to charge and the rider must also use his action pool to charge.

If it was intended to be that way, wouldn't the authors have written that both must use the charge action? As written, it's impossible to use if the rider has to be the one using the charge action.


I FAQ'd it. Winston Colt phrased it better than I, but I see the argument from the other side well. I suspect it will be a solid year or maybe never for a definitive answer. But... *shrugs* I FAQ'd it.

Greg


I FAQ'd it as well. I ask that the others do as well, so we might be able to get a solid answer.


I forgot, you're not allowed to combine Vital Strike with anything else, ever.


Irontruth wrote:
I forgot, you're not allowed to combine Vital Strike with anything else, ever.

That, to me, doesn't really answer the question of whether it's you charging or if it's the mount charging. Unless it's a complete blanket over every and all charges, no matter if you're mounted or not.

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