Recently we've had a discussion about Fighters and their feats, and while both sides of had valid points, in the end I'm under the impression that Weapon Focus/Specialization seems almost obligatory for Fighters to have a real advantage in DPR. IMHO, this should not be the case. Fighter should have awesome damage anyway, and the spec tree should be just an options for players who focus completely on damage.
Recently, one of my players became unable to play with us 'til the end of the year. That means the party lost its Barbarian. In order to fill in for him, I wanted to make a Fighter to replace him.
Why a Fighter? Well, first, I want a character with good AC/DPR who is also decent at ranged combat. Second, I don't want to make one of the same class as the character who left, and we already have a Paladin and a Ranger. Lastly, this NPC is not expected to help much outside of combat, he's just filling the "meat shield" role, non-combat problems should be solved without the help of any NPC, even one mostly controlled by the players, so skills are not a real worry. (Even if in my games, Fighters do get 2 extra skill points and a few other buffs)
Thing is, I hate the Weapon spec tree. At most, I just take Weapon Focus because it's a very common prerequisite.
So here is what I'm asking: What are the best ways to raise a character's damage without resorting to Weapon Focus/Specilization?. An no EWP: Falcatas either.
Power Attack/Deadly Aim, Furious Focus and Improved Critical are pretty obvious, but I'm sure there is more than this.
EDIT: Oh, and 3.5 feats are valid suggestions.
That's a lot of restrictions. You can't really expect a lot of advice when you've ruled most of the damage options as off-the-table.
One option I can think of to ramp up DOR without the above mentioned feats is to use a reach weapon combined with Lunge, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes. Whenever people enter or move through your threat range you trip 'em, and then hit 'em when they try and get up again. They are forced to eat their actions and you get to smack 'em around good.
That's a lot of restrictions. You can't really expect a lot of advice when you've ruled most of the damage options as off-the-table.
Yup, it's a difficult quesiton, and that's why I'm asking for help. ^^
And I should have said before, but 3.5 feats are valid suggestions.One option I can think of to ramp up DOR without the above mentioned feats is to use a reach weapon combined with Lunge, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes. Whenever people enter or move through your threat range you trip 'em, and then hit 'em when they try and get up again. They are forced to eat their actions and you get to smack 'em around good.
That's a good combo (I play a Paladin that uses similar tactics). I was leaning towards Greatswords/Falchions for their increased DPR and simplicity, but I'll seriously consider this idea.
what level is the party?
They are currently at 8th level. Almost on 9th, though.
My druid improves her damage with buffs and weapon enchantments. Get a shocking weapon and max out your fighter's UMD to allow him to use buffing spells like "Bull's Strength" from wands. Get "boots of speed" to allow an extra attack per round ten rounds per day. Get a mount so you can full attack with your ranged weapon while maneuvering in combat. Take "combat reflexes" and optimize your attacks of opportunity. A reach weapon works nicely with this approach. Get an "enlarge" wand.
sigh, partially ninja'd
Gloves of dueling.
Combat reflexes.
Righteous armor.
Critical feats.
Barbarian multiclass.
Bullrush greater and strike.
Deadly stroke.
*blinks* 3.5 feats are allowed? Well, hell, why don't you just request to get the 3.5 version of Power Attack? Then you can take Improved Bull Rush, and the 3.5 feat Shock Trooper, which allows you to move the penalty from Power Attack to your AC (instead of your attack roll) when you charge.
The 3.5 version of Power Attack lets you take a penalty up to your BAB and then gives you that much in damage back, or twice that much for a two-handed weapon. So, here's what you're looking at:
Weapon Master (Falchion)-
Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Improved Bull Rush, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Improved Critical (Falchion), Shock Trooper
Now when you charge on your mount you deal 4d4+4(Weapon Training)+3x your Str bonus +2x your enhancement bonus+32(Power Attack). There. Who needs Weapon Specialization?
*blinks* 3.5 feats are allowed? Well, hell, why don't you just request to get the 3.5 version of Power Attack? Then you can take Improved Bull Rush, and the 3.5 feat Shock Trooper, which allows you to move the penalty from Power Attack to your AC (instead of your attack roll) when you charge.
The 3.5 version of Power Attack lets you take a penalty up to your BAB and then gives you that much in damage back, or twice that much for a two-handed weapon. So, here's what you're looking at:
Weapon Master (Falchion)-
Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Improved Bull Rush, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Improved Critical (Falchion), Shock Trooper
Now when you charge on your mount you deal 4d4+4(Weapon Training)+3x your Str bonus +2x your enhancement bonus+32(Power Attack). There. Who needs Weapon Specialization?
While I have fond memories of Shock Trooper and I'm the GM, so theoretically I could allow the old PA, the general consensus in my game table is that if there is a PF version of a 3.5 feat, then we use the PF version.
I hadn't considered focusing on mounted combat, though... Hmm... That's an interesting idea... A Fighter could probably do that and archery well enough... he does have 10 feats to play with...
More Strength, weapon training, gloves of dueling, bigger sword. Why do you hate Weapon Specialization? It's a great feat.
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*blinks* 3.5 feats are allowed? Well, hell, why don't you just request to get the 3.5 version of Power Attack? Then you can take Improved Bull Rush, and the 3.5 feat Shock Trooper, which allows you to move the penalty from Power Attack to your AC (instead of your attack roll) when you charge.
The 3.5 version of Power Attack lets you take a penalty up to your BAB and then gives you that much in damage back, or twice that much for a two-handed weapon. So, here's what you're looking at:
Weapon Master (Falchion)-
Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Improved Bull Rush, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Improved Critical (Falchion), Shock Trooper
Now when you charge on your mount you deal 4d4+4(Weapon Training)+3x your Str bonus +2x your enhancement bonus+32(Power Attack). There. Who needs Weapon Specialization?
While I have fond memories of Shock Trooper and I'm the GM, so theoretically I could allow the old PA, the general consensus in my game table is that if there is a PF version of a 3.5 feat, then we use the PF version.
I hadn't considered focusing on mounted combat, though... Hmm... That's an interesting idea... A Fighter could probably do that and archery well enough... he does have 10 feats to play with...
Not to mention mounted archery allows you to move and full attack. Have your fighter take a few ranks in UMD and pick up a wand of Phantom Steed to get around the mount survivability issue.
More Strength, weapon training, gloves of dueling, bigger sword. Why do you hate Weapon Specialization? It's a great feat.
LOL... "More Strength" has got to be the best suggestion I've ever heard... haha
Anyway... I hate Weapon Specialization because it's boring. I hate it because it's an unecessary feat tax. I hate it because it's a "moar damage!" feat for the one class that shouldn't need it.
But that's beside the point. I've had that discussion not long ago.
Not to mention mounted archery allows you to move and full attack. Have your fighter take a few ranks in UMD and pick up a wand of Phantom Steed to get around the mount survivability issue.
That's true. Mounted Skirmish really increases the Fighter's mobility. Is there anything similar to the old Wild Cohort feat in PF?
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***That's true. Mounted Skirmish really increases the Fighter's mobility. Is there anything similar to the old Wild Cohort feat in PF?
You actually only need Mounted Skirmisher to full attack with a melee weapon while mounted. You can always full attack with a bow or ranged weapon. The Knights of the Inner Sea book gives a wide option of special mounts a character can choose to take with the Leadership feat.
You actually only need Mounted Skirmisher to full attack with a melee weapon while mounted. You can always full attack with a bow or ranged weapon.
Huh... Never noticed that. I wonder why that is.
The Knights of the Inner Sea book gives a wide option of special mounts a character can choose to take with the Leadership feat.
Oddly enough I have that book. I wasn't very impressed with it, so I don't remember its content very well. I'm not a big fan of Leadership... Not so much because of its power, but because it slows down the game. I banned it because we have too many players (Well, not so much anymore; 4 steady players and other 2~4 that ocasionally play with us, plus the odd NPCs who decides to stick around for a while... Damn Paladin convinced a freaking Clockword soldier with class levels to join them in their travels... -.-').
Maybe allowing it for monstrous mounts is not a bad idea.
Moonlight Stalker is one of my personal faves for a two-weapon fighter. It gives a +2 to attack and +2 to damage as long as you're attacking from concealment. Prereqs are Blind Fight and Combat Expertise and being nonHuman(IE, low-light or dark vision racial trait), so if you count the Human bonus feat it's three feats. Concealment can be granted by magic items or the party wizard or just being in the dark.
Improved Dirty Trick allows a fighter to inflict the Blinded condition, which reduces AC by 2 AND denies dex. (If all their AC is dex based, it drops a lot.) This also gives de facto concealment for the above feat and shares a prerequisite.
Another convoluted damage increasing feat chain are the Performance Combat feats. You're starting off with the same prereqs as Deadly Stroke, but then branch off entirely. Performing Combatant and Savage Display adds 1d6 to your damage rolls in any combat. Dramatic and then Masterful display allow you do both do that and get a +2 bonus on attack rolls. Thats a total of 6 feats for +2/+1d6.
Also, depending on the party's composition, Teamwork feats are a situationally effective way to increase damage/attacks of opportunity. These have their limitations (such as becoming useless when the complimentary party member bites the bullet) but needn't be automatically discounted. The party that fights together wins together, and more than one character reaps the benefit.
And yes, the Mounted Combat feat chain is far and away the biggest damage boost you can get early on.
EH is always a considerable option. Honestly I do not understand your problem with weapon spe.
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The Knights of the Inner Sea book gives a wide option of special mounts a character can choose to take with the Leadership feat.Oddly enough I have that book. I wasn't very impressed with it, so I don't remember its content very well. I'm not a big fan of Leadership... Not so much because of its power, but because it slows down the game. I banned it because we have too many players (Well, not so much anymore; 4 steady players and other 2~4 that ocasionally play with us, plus the odd NPCs who decides to stick around for a while... Damn Paladin convinced a freaking Clockword soldier with class levels to join them in their travels... -.-').
Maybe allowing it for monstrous mounts is not a bad idea.
That's actually the only reason I let people take Leadership in our group, since we have a full party already. It's a pretty nice alternative for people who want a mount that doesn't need to be replaced after every combat, but don't want to play one of the classes that comes with an AC :/
As I recall, the 3.5 Draconomicon had a list of level appropriate dragons a character with the Leadership feat could take as mounts as well. I think the lowest level one you could get for a medium character was like a Wyvern at level 12 or so.
I meant DPR*
Moonlight Stalker is one of my personal faves for a two-weapon fighter. It gives a +2 to attack and +2 to damage as long as you're attacking from concealment. Prereqs are Blind Fight and Combat Expertise and being nonHuman(IE, low-light or dark vision racial trait), so if you count the Human bonus feat it's three feats. Concealment can be granted by magic items or the party wizard or just being in the dark.
Improved Dirty Trick allows a fighter to inflict the Blinded condition, which reduces AC by 2 AND denies dex. (If all their AC is dex based, it drops a lot.) This also gives de facto concealment for the above feat and shares a prerequisite.
Another convoluted damage increasing feat chain are the Performance Combat feats. You're starting off with the same prereqs as Deadly Stroke, but then branch off entirely. Performing Combatant and Savage Display adds 1d6 to your damage rolls in any combat. Dramatic and then Masterful display allow you do both do that and get a +2 bonus on attack rolls. Thats a total of 6 feats for +2/+1d6.
Those are all good suggestions, though Deadly Stroke does require GWF. I had forgotten about Dirty Tricks, they always seemed fun to me, the only problem is that they use a standard action unless you get Greater Dirty Trick too.
Also, depending on the party's composition, Teamwork feats are a situationally effective way to increase damage/attacks of opportunity. These have their limitations (such as becoming useless when the complimentary party member bites the bullet) but needn't be automatically discounted. The party that fights together wins together, and more than one character reaps the benefit.
Indeed, but since this is for a (mostly player-controlled) NPC who is not supposed to be around all the time (only when the Barbarian player can't show up) and noone in the party has Teamwork feats, grabbing any of those is pointless. OTOH, I suppose his mount could get some Teamwork feats too...
And yes, the Mounted Combat feat chain is far and away the biggest damage boost you can get early on.
at's actually the only reason I let people take Leadership in our group, since we have a full party already. It's a pretty nice alternative for people who want a mount that doesn't need to be replaced after every combat, but don't want to play one of the classes that comes with an AC :/
I see... I'm really considering the idea of a mounted warrior. It's effective and quite different from the other characters. I guess I'll allow Leadership for monstrous feats.
EH is always a considerable option. Honestly I do not understand your problem with weapon spe.
I dunno what is EH. And I already explained my problems with weapon Focus/Specialization time and time again, you can check my earlier post for a shortened version or search my post history if you want to know more. Whatever the case, no offense, but I don't feel like explaining my point again.
He's probably referring to Eldritch Heritage. Specifically, Orc or Abyssal, which give you Inherent bonuses to your STR. These do not stack with the Manual, but the Manual is also a significant part of your WBL normally.
increase the enhancement bonus of the weapon.
Since 3.5 content is allowed, perhaps take the Martial Study feat from Book of Nine Swords a couple of times, which lets you pick up a Maneuver even if you're not a Maneuver-User class. Don't have my books on me at the moment but just a browse through some of the sections should find you some pretty heavy-hitting tricks - I recommend starting in the Iron Heart or Stone Dragon sections.
What about making the enemy be more terrible at not taking damage, rather than making yourself more rad at doing damage?
He's probably referring to Eldritch Heritage. Specifically, Orc or Abyssal, which give you Inherent bonuses to your STR. These do not stack with the Manual, but the Manual is also a significant part of your WBL normally.
Dont forget quicken SLA + optimistic gambler
That's a pretty good build, Nicos. I alwasy forget Risky Striker, and it's such a good feat. That said, if I make a Halfling, I'd be tempted to focus on slingshots. (Bob made a very awesome Halfling Fighter build once)
I don't think it needs Step Up, though. As much as I like that feat, in my experience, it's very rarely useful. Nimble Moves is pretty good too, but now that we have those very cheap boots that allow the character to move in difficult terrain, it seems like a wasted feat.
I'd also probably reduce its Int, though. Like i said, he's not expected to contribute much outside of combat. That's the players' job.
The others have already suggested some good options, but I'd rather point out that a fighter taking the w. spec. tree is not really devoting himself to damage dealing only: the fighter get so many bonus feats to both take w.spec. tree AND do a bunch of other stuff.
Also, fighters should be the best in combat and they are. Being the best in combat does not necessarily mean being the best DPR: with the other features (weapon training) they have as good DPR as the bests of the bests, with other feats they can be the best in combat using other powerful options. If one fighter wants to dwarfs a specialized barbarian in DPR he will have to devote extra resources in terms of feats (w. spec.), but we are speaking of being better that a dedicated DPR from a class that's devoted to fighting. If you take the vanilla fighter without weapon spec. and compare it to the vanilla barbarian, ranger or paladin, the fighter is already ahead in terms of damage more often than not (the other classes can't even come close).
I don't see why a fighter should have higher DPR than another character that's focused on doing just that simply because of the fact that he is a fighter. If you create a focused tripper you will still be better than the others in combat by using that tactic, why do you think you also have to be the best in DPR?
Fighters are not the best DPR melee class.
I use a vanilia 2HW fighter with PA, weapon spec. to compare other melee builds - and really if they aren't doing better than the vanila fighter they aren't doing it right...
By forgoing weapons specialization for a fighter you have made the decision that damage is not your highest priority. It may be as you say boring but what you want to do is deal more damage it is one of the most cost effective ways a fighter can boost his damage.
This is not to say that it is required for all fighter builds just those focusing on damage. As a fighter you have plenty of feats to do other things besides damage. What I would be doing if you don't want to use weapon specialization is to focus on doing other things to your opponent besides damage. Pick up multiple improved combat maneuvers to give yourself more options than just hit or do one maneuver. Also the combat maneuver strike feats with a high crit weapon can be cool.
I was working on a character using the sundering strike and cornugun smash feats using a falchion. Took power attack, improved sunder, greater sunder, sundering strike, cornugun smash and improved critical. With a good roll you can destroy both the opponents weapon and armor cause him to gain the shaken condition and still damage him in one hit. For anyone but a fighter this is going to take up almost all their feats leaving almost nothing for anything else.
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Some options to increase damage done, if not damage per attack:
Hammer the Gap
Clustered Shots (for ranged combatant)
Greater Trip (Improved Disarm is a nice add-on to this. Provokes when tripped, provokes when standing, provokes when picking up weapon)
Combat Reflexes (really required, with a good Dex, for this kind of build)
Whip Mastery/Improved Whip Mastery (not for damage, but gives the fighter/wielder some battlefield control, see Greater Trip above)
EWP: Fauchard (1d10, 18-20 x2, trip & disarm with reach)
Alternate damaage dealer option:
Magus (Blade Bound), wielding a scimitar. At 8th level, he can have his scimitar keen for almost every combat in a day, as well as +3, or +2 with elemental damage.
Could you use potions of reduce person with risky striker?
Your to hit would stay the same [+1 from size, -1 from str] but your damage would increase even though your str drops by one as you'll gain that back with the +2 from risky striker at levels 1-3 [also note that you'll lose an average of 1 point of damage from the smaller weapon] but once you reach level 4 you're gaining damage output [not to mention +2 AC and +1 to ref saves and initiative]
One question: does the enemy leaving the square you're occupying with him provoke an AoO?
Some options to increase damage done, if not damage per attack:
Hammer the Gap
Clustered Shots (for ranged combatant)
Hammer The Gap seems a bit lackluster to me, it's one of those things that sound better in theory than in practice. Clustered Shot is a great feat, though. Since I want him to be decent at ranged combat as well, I should probably get it.
Greater Trip (Improved Disarm is a nice add-on to this. Provokes when tripped, provokes when standing, provokes when picking up weapon)
Combat Reflexes (really required, with a good Dex, for this kind of build)
Trip may be fun. I probably won't take Disarm because the party's Paladin already uses the tactic and I don't want to step on his toes.
Whip Mastery/Improved Whip Mastery (not for damage, but gives the fighter/wielder some battlefield control, see Greater Trip above)
EWP: Fauchard (1d10, 18-20 x2, trip & disarm with reach)
You know, I really like whips, they are one of the few Exotic weapons that actually feels exotic. The only other ones I think that share this trait are Nets.
I have a Reach/Trip Paladin going in another campaign, and I seriously considered taking Fauchards, but I don't think he can spare the feat. For a Fighter, though, that is very viable.Alternate damaage dealer option:
Magus (Blade Bound), wielding a scimitar. At 8th level, he can have his scimitar keen for almost every combat in a day, as well as +3, or +2 with elemental damage.
This is a great suggestion, except the party already has one of those. :-P
Right now I'm leaning towards a mounted warrior with a pole arm and decent archery skills. Sadly, I'll probably have to take weapon focus anyway, as that's is a very common pre-requisite for other combat feats.
Has anyonev seem more unusual combat maneuvers such as Bull Rush and Overrun being consistently useful?
Bull Rush and Overrun serve very different purposes.
Bull Rush is fun if there's lots of hazards or traps around. You can bully enemies around and push 'em off ledges. If you want a "this is sparta" moment, go bull rush.
Overrun is for positioning yourself among hordes of mooks. It's handy with providing flanks. It can get a cleaver into the middle of the fray where they can do their best work. It doesn't age well and is a good feat to retrain as a fighter.
Consistently useful? Very good question. Bull rush is the more consistent of the two, in that it's situationally absolutely amazing. It becomes all the better if you have a sorcerer with any of the Pit spells; you can play Goblin Billiards!
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Definitely be sure to take a lance and the Spirited Charge feat if you want to maximize your melee damage with mounted combat. Charge up on your mount and deal triple damage with the first attack, then finish taking your iteratives if you happen to have Mounted Skirmisher.
I think if you want to give up damage, taking a good hard look at Sunders and Dirty Tricks is the way to go.
I actually like Weapon Specialization for NPC fighters. It's easy to handle -- just increase the damage results by +2, write down and forget about it.
I use a vanilia 2HW fighter with PA, weapon spec. to compare other melee builds - and really if they aren't doing better than the vanila fighter they aren't doing it right...
Fighters are not the best DPR melee class.
Sorry guys, but what are you thinking about?
I can think about a barbarian with come and get me (a reckless strategy that's also assuming someone attacks you, and I like being proactive rather than reactive), some eidolons too big to do anything useful in a dungeon and occasionally a smiting paladin or a ranger who is against with his favored enemy maxed out (or who runs out of instant enemy really fast).
Magus, almost all diviners, almost all gishes, barbarian, samurai/cavalier, multiclass fighter and even sap-rogues and guide/IE-Ranger.
Guess that somehow covers every single martial class in the game.
Sure, vanilla fighter has some strengths - but its not damage.
I'm waiting for this to turn to paladins, then the horror begins anew.
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Magus, almost all diviners, almost all gishes, barbarian, samurai/cavalier, multiclass fighter and even sap-rogues and guide/IE-Ranger.
Guess that somehow covers every single martial class in the game.
Sure, vanilla fighter has some strengths - but its not damage.
Now, to be fair, the samurai/cavalier only out-damages the fighter in situations where he can fight from his mount, Rangers typically only outdamage in specific circumstances, and the Magus only out-damages for as long as he still has spells and an Arcane Pool, which usually deplete pretty rapidly if he's consistently out-damaging the Fighter. Gish classes and barbarians are the ones most likely to consistently out-damage the fighter, but even they are working with a pool of limited resources, and only the barbarian is likely to never actually exhaust that pool after 5th level or so.....
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The thing is most of the time its way more important to be able to spike than to do reliable constant damage. Maybe there are campaigns where this is useful, but looking at all the AP's there is none where the ability to regulate your power isnt superior. Being able to nova somehow is just exactly what is needed in hard fights while constant high damage is not really necessary in the easier battles.
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It also really matters how often you have encounters.
If you only fight like once a day: everyone burns through their resources and deal with things in like 2 rounds and the fighter does not really matter
If you fight much more often: The fighter ends up looking a lot better after resources get low.
Also though as I mentioned A barbarian is just plain superior because there are so many ways to manipulate rage.
And you end up with so many rounds of rage that you virtually never run the risk of running out after about 5th level or so. Especially if you're combat encounters are only lasting 2-3 rounds each.
I feel like the barbarian is balanced to the expectation of 4+ combat encounters a day, with each combat lasting 6+ rounds...| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You should add that these encounters have to be challenging enough to need spending resources - easy encounters can be won without burning a gishs resources. The fighter shines when he's facing a lot of pretty hard encounters. And as I said - thats rarely the case.
