Precise Strike (Combat, Teamwork)
You are skilled at striking where it counts, as long as an ally distracts your foe.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same the creature, you deal an additional 1d6 points of precision damage with each successful melee attack. This bonus damage stacks with other sources of precision damage, such as sneak attack. This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Outflank (Combat, Teamwork)
You look for every edge when flanking an enemy.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Whenever you and an ally who also has this feat are flanking the same creature, your flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. In addition, whenever you score a critical hit against the flanked creature, it provokes an attack of opportunity from your ally.
This is my answer to weapon focus and Weapon Spec each and every time.
A)+4 to hit with thought vs B) +1 all time with no thought
A)+1d6 damage with thought vs B) +2 damage with no thought
A)free extra attack on Critical vs B) +2 that is multplied on Critcal
A)Can be taken by any one with DEX 13 and BaB +4 vs B)Fighter only with BaB+4
A)2 feat tax vs B) 2 feat tax
I like A over B each and every day it more fun to play as think mans game than I hit with big AX.
Both are equal but if you can get the whole party on board the A train of thought it kick the hell out of B.
Recently we've had a discussion about Fighters and their feats, and while both sides of had valid points, in the end I'm under the impression that Weapon Focus/Specialization seems almost obligatory for Fighters to have a real advantage in DPR. IMHO, this should not be the case. Fighter should have awesome damage anyway, and the spec tree should be just an options for players who focus completely on damage.
Recently, one of my players became unable to play with us 'til the end of the year. That means the party lost its Barbarian. In order to fill in for him, I wanted to make a Fighter to replace him.
Why a Fighter? Well, first, I want a character with good AC/DPR who is also decent at ranged combat. Second, I don't want to make one of the same class as the character who left, and we already have a Paladin and a Ranger. Lastly, this NPC is not expected to help much outside of combat, he's just filling the "meat shield" role, non-combat problems should be solved without the help of any NPC, even one mostly controlled by the players, so skills are not a real worry. (Even if in my games, Fighters do get 2 extra skill points and a few other buffs)
Thing is, I hate the Weapon spec tree. At most, I just take Weapon Focus because it's a very common prerequisite.
So here is what I'm asking: What are the best ways to raise a character's damage without resorting to Weapon Focus/Specilization?. An no EWP: Falcatas either.
Power Attack/Deadly Aim, Furious Focus and Improved Critical are pretty obvious, but I'm sure there is more than this.EDIT: Oh, and 3.5 feats are valid suggestions.
Question: Why are you worried about DPR on a tank if you already have a Ranger and a Paladin? Meat shield's role is to TAKE hits, not DEAL them. If you're concerned about class role and DPR that much, you have to optimize your build and disregard whether you like the Weapon Spec line or not. Otherwise, leave stuff like DPR calculations to the video gamers.
Anyways, here's my 2 copper on answering your actual question:
Increase Strength
Whirlwind Attack (feat tax heavy though)
Vital Strike for single attack actions
Hammer the Gap for full attack actions
Two Weapon Fighting (maybe not viable if you want a tank, but Double Slice and Two Weapon Rend are nice)
Weapon Enchantments (Flaming Burst, etc...lots of options)
Big Game Hunter. That one's a favorite of mine.
Vital Strike chain. Maybe not your cup of tea but it does increase damage.
A buddy with a designating or greater designating weapon.
A bard.
Huh... I had forgotten about Big Game Hunter. I don't really like the feat, as it seems like a situational weapon focus... Though it might be good for halflings and dwarves. I see it requires "Varisia affinity". Dafuq is that?
I like the idea of Vital Strike, keeping martials effective even when they move, but the feat investment in too steep for my tastes...
I like the idea of Teamwork feats, but I don't think that'll work. None of the other party members took any Teamwork feats, and this guys is not supposed to be around all the time (he's just a substitute for when the Barbarian player can show up)
I even considered making him a Cavalier/Samurai because I don't like the class enough to use it on a full-time character, but since I don't know anything about building them and I want someone who is effective to fill in for the missing Barbarian, I decided to go with a Fighter.
Question: Why are you worried about DPR on a tank if you already have a Ranger and a Paladin? Meat shield's role is to TAKE hits, not DEAL them. If you're concerned about class role and DPR that much, you have to optimize your build and disregard whether you like the Weapon Spec line or not. Otherwise, leave stuff like DPR calculations to the video gamers.
Okay, let me try and answer that.
1- The Ranger in question is a pretty weak NPC (She's 4 levels behind the PCs and doesn't even have an animal companion with her). The party's has been hired to get her safely to the River Kingdoms.
2- I want a class who fills a similar role to the one used by the character who is missing (in this case, a Barbarian) but in a different way.
3- He can't just have an amazing defenses and forgo damage/maneuvers. Otherwise, why whould any smart enemy bother attacking him?
4- Some of my players are realtivelly new to RPGs and PF, others haven't played in a while. So I want a character who has some cool tricks that helps them learn/remember different tactics and options. Fighters can do this very well or very bad, depending on how many feats they spend on bigger numbers and increased options, the trick is finding the balance between the two.
5- While this NPC is mostly player-controlled, I'm sure I'll have to use it sometimes (maybe they decide to fight him for some reason or another, or simply do not want to worry about controlling another character), so I'm trying to keep it as interesting as I can.
Anyways, here's my 2 copper on answering your actual question:
Increase Strength
Well, that's a very good advice. I dunno how I didn't think of that... ^^
Whirlwind Attack (feat tax heavy though)
I like WWA, I really do. But its prerequisites are simply too much for my tastes...
Vital Strike for single attack actions
I'll consider it. Though I'm leaning towards making a mounted Fighter, so it might not be as essential.
Hammer the Gap for full attack actions
Two Weapon Fighting (maybe not viable if you want a tank, but Double Slice and Two Weapon Rend are nice)
I'm really dunno about Hammer The Gap. This feats doesn't seem to be nearly as good as it sounds, though I kinda like its mechanics for some reason. I assume it synergizes well with TWF, and I always liked the sword & board fighting style (we have a houserule that reduces the TWF chain to 2 feats, so it might be actually pretty good.
Weapon Enchantments (Flaming Burst, etc...lots of options)
You know.. For some reason I don't think I've ever actually spent cash on elemental damage enchantments, I think all of my flaming/shocking/whatever weapons came from loot or rewards I might buy him a Flaming Sword just for variety... haha.
Is there any new cool weapon properties in UE? (I actually have the book and its HeroLab addon, but I haven't paid much attention to new enhancements)
Are you allowing 3PP material?
Some ways to improve damage:
1) Improve critical hits
2) More attacks
3) Improve your attack bonus so you hit more often
I'm a little tired so I'm not thinking about a lot of options right now. I'll see what I can come up with. Most of the methods are rather straightforward but there may be some interesting things tactical ways to do it.
Okay, let me try and answer that.
1- The Ranger in question is a pretty weak NPC (She's 4 levels behind the PCs and doesn't even have an animal companion with her). The party's has been hired to get her safely to the River Kingdoms.
Valid. Ranger's DPR will be lower, so another low DPR melee'r will make your party suck more. Got it.
2- I want a class who fills a similar role to the one used by the character who is missing (in this case, a Barbarian) but in a different way.
Have you considered a Gunslinger? Still does decent damage, has decent AC, and goes about it in "a different way".
3- He can't just have an amazing defenses and forgo damage/maneuvers. Otherwise, why whould any smart enemy bother attacking him?
Because a good tank will MAKE you attack him. With feats such as the Step Up line, Pin Down, Teleport Tactician, etc...basically a tank's job is to push as many "attack me or die" buttons as he can.
4- Some of my players are realtivelly new to RPGs and PF, others haven't played in a while. So I want a character who has some cool tricks that helps them learn/remember different tactics and options. Fighters can do this very well or very bad, depending on how many feats they spend on bigger numbers and increased options, the trick is finding the balance between the two.
I repeat my question about consideration of a Gunslinger. Particularly, a Kobold Bushwhacker idea I have in mind might fit well.
5- While this NPC is mostly player-controlled, I'm sure I'll have to use it sometimes (maybe they decide to fight him for some reason or another, or simply do not want to worry about controlling another character), so I'm trying to keep it as interesting as I can.
Any character is only as interesting as their story/mechanics.
Whirlwind Attack (feat tax heavy though)I like WWA, I really do. But its prerequisites are simply too much for my tastes...
Mine too. I try to avoid this feat if necessary.
Vital Strike for single attack actionsI'll consider it. Though I'm leaning towards making a mounted Fighter, so it might not be as essential.
Wouldn't it still be good on a Mounted Charge?
Valid. Ranger's DPR will be lower, so another low DPR melee'r will make your party suck more. Got it.Okay, let me try and answer that.
1- The Ranger in question is a pretty weak NPC (She's 4 levels behind the PCs and doesn't even have an animal companion with her). The party's has been hired to get her safely to the River Kingdoms.
She's not weak because she's a Ranger, she's weak because she is 4 levels below the rest of the party. I don't think a Ranger's DPR would be that much lower, actually, but a) They come with animal companions, and we already have enough characters to control. I just need one to fill in for the Barbarian b) I want the new character to be of a different different from the rest of the party, including the NPC Ranger
Have you considered a Gunslinger? Still does decent damage, has decent AC, and goes about it in "a different way".
2- I want a class who fills a similar role to the one used by the character who is missing (in this case, a Barbarian) but in a different way.
No, I haven't. Dunno why, though. I was thinking about a melee characters who is decent at ranged combat (the case of the Barbarian). Fighters do that just fine. I suppose gunslingers can do it too, thanks to Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance and Agile weapons.
Because a good tank will MAKE you attack him. With feats such as the Step Up line, Pin Down, Teleport Tactician, etc...basically a tank's job is to push as many "attack me or die" buttons as he can.
3- He can't just have an amazing defenses and forgo damage/maneuvers. Otherwise, why whould any smart enemy bother attacking him?
That' pretty much what I said... You know, I really like Step Up, but in my experience, characters rarely have the chance to actually use it. YMMV. Anyway, it seems we agree on this one.
I repeat my question about consideration of a Gunslinger. Particularly, a Kobold Bushwhacker idea I have in mind might fit well.
4- Some of my players are realtivelly new to RPGs and PF, others haven't played in a while. So I want a character who has some cool tricks that helps them learn/remember different tactics and options. Fighters can do this very well or very bad, depending on how many feats they spend on bigger numbers and increased options, the trick is finding the balance between the two.
Feel free to share it. Like I said, I was thinking mroe about melee combatant, but that's not a requirement.
Any character is only as interesting as their story/mechanics.
5- While this NPC is mostly player-controlled, I'm sure I'll have to use it sometimes (maybe they decide to fight him for some reason or another, or simply do not want to worry about controlling another character), so I'm trying to keep it as interesting as I can.
Agreed. That's why I don't want to follow the weapon spec tree more than, maybe, getting weapon focus in order to fulfill prerequisites for cooler feats.
I like WWA, I really do. But its prerequisites are simply too much for my tastes...Mine too. I try to avoid this feat if necessary.
I'll certainly do the same.
I'll consider it. Though I'm leaning towards making a mounted Fighter, so it might not be as essential.Wouldn't it still be good on a Mounted Charge?
Good? Yes? As good as for a non-mounted character? Don't think so. I'm not a big fan of VS, anyway. If it was a single scaling feat, it'd be great, but as it is, VS requires too many feats to stay relevant.
So it appears you're not a fan of ANY feat chains whatsoever, which limits your options quite a bit for raising damage without them.
Have you looked at the Phalanx Fighter archetype? Can use polearm and a shield. That gives you reach, 2-hand damage for 150% strength bonus, and some other goodies. Combine that with a reason for the fighter to have a ridiculously high strength score, add in some weapon enchants and decent armor, and you can overcome your aversion to the feat chains.
This guy would be King Leonidas with the strength of Samson.
So it appears you're not a fan of ANY feat chains whatsoever, which limits your options quite a bit for raising damage without them.
I just don't like feat chains that are just the same feat over and over again.
I like the combat maneuver feat chains (well, except for the fact that they require Combat Expertise and Int 13) because they add bigger numbers AND new options.I like the Whip Mastery feat chain for the same reason (although I'm not sure how viable whips really are, I think I'll make a whip-wielding magus next time).
I like the TWF/Shield Slam feat chains (But I rarely get ITWF and never get GTWF). Mounted Combat feat chain and, to a lesser degree, Archery feat chains also gives us bigger numbers AND new stuff to do! So I like those too.
I like feat chains like Power Attack -> Cornugon Smash or Combat Reflexes -> Stand Still. I like the Critical feats. I like the Style feat chains (especially Snake Style and Crane Style)
I like the Step Up feat chain, even if I think it doesn't comes into play very often. I have the same opinion about Blind Fight and Improved Blind Fight.
I like Eldritch Heritage and its Improved version, because they give me something new every time.
You see my point? I don't have a problem grabbing a feat that only gives me bigger numbers, my problem is having to grab 3~4 of those. It's okay taking Weapon Focus and Improved Critical... Grabbing WF/WS/GWF/GWS is boring.
I like feat chains that are affordable, useful and interesting.
If Combat Reflexes was something like "you can make 1 extra AoO per round" and then I had to grab "Improved Combat Reflexes and Greater Combat Reflexes to add another AoO each, I'd most likely never take it.
Have you looked at the Phalanx Fighter archetype? Can use polearm and a shield. That gives you reach, 2-hand damage for 150% strength bonus, and some other goodies. Combine that with a reason for the fighter to have a ridiculously high strength score, add in some weapon enchants and decent armor, and you can overcome your aversion to the feat chains.
This guy would be King Leonidas with the strength of Samson.
I had forgotten about the Phalanx Fighter... You know, I never understood why you need an archetype to do that. It's not like every roman soldier was a 3rd level fighter. They were probably 1st or 2nd level warriors...
I really like the Phalanx Fighter, you know... It's one of my favorite archetypes,
Be a Dwarf or Duergar(enlarge helps)
Get every single cleave feat
Use a reach weapon
Prestige into Stalwart Defender for a few levels.
You cant use vital strike on a charge. Just saying.
Gunslinger hit touch AC with full BaB. Grad 1 level of wizard(divener) and you set.
Foresight School
Associated School: Divination.
Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the diviner's fortune and scrying adept powers of the divination school.
Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
This plus the hand full of gun spell, Arcane Strike to make gun magic
along deadly aim and the fact most gun are x4 weapons. Means you smoke stuff allday long. It so broke in my game we hand to chage the X4 to time x3 it was to good.
Lore Warden fighter/ archivist Bard. Boosts everyone(so everyone gets better when the big gun dps aint there, they get to contribute more)
Light armored mobile fighter with a agile whip, whip mastery, trip, disarm, serpent lash, combat reflexes. Trips and disarms everything, doesn't do a lot of damage, but makes fights easier for everyone and they get to shine more as they hit prone/unarmed enemies, and buffed by bardsong.
Bards get whips, lore warden gets skills, bard skills, he can tell them what anything they come up against is, how to fight it, defenses/attacks, this lets you prep new/out of practice people for everything. Dex/Cha/Con/Int/Str/Wis kinda all around guy who helps with anything they need, and fades off when they don't.
To help, without overshadowing the members who are there (In my experience probably used to being overshadowed in combat by the barbarian), Agile Scorpion Whip can be a solid 1d4 + lots with agile, arcane strike, and buffs. Combat maneuver bonuses from the Lore Warden, (total of +7 at level 7fig/1bard against anything he identifies with the proper knowledge, not including imp/gr feats themselves) keeps the maneuvers relevant for late game play.
Just my 2cp.
Like it so muuch I am stealing it. It is now on my list of PC to play.
Gunslinger hit touch AC with full BaB. Grad 1 level of wizard(divener) and you set.
Foresight School
Associated School: Divination.Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the diviner's fortune and scrying adept powers of the divination school.
Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
This plus the hand full of gun spell, Arcane Strike to make gun magic
along deadly aim and the fact most gun are x4 weapons. Means you smoke stuff all day long. It so broke in my game we hand to chage the X4 to time x3 it was to good.
Not sure if Prescience and +1 damage from Arcane Strike are worth the loss of BAB and delayed class features, though cantrips, 1st level spells and the ability to use magic items may be.
I've played gunslingers before with my other gaming group, and I really like the class (although I do hate the firearm mechanics), and it never seemed broken to me. Efficient, yeah, but never broken.
Design Manager
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***I even considered making him a Cavalier/Samurai because I don't like the class enough to use it on a full-time character, but since I don't know anything about building them and I want someone who is effective to fill in for the missing Barbarian, I decided to go with a Fighter.
Cavalier/Samurai is actually pretty straightforward.
I usually recommend playing a Small-sized Cavalier to avoid running into situations where you're always leaving your mount outside, but since you're running the game you can take that into account and choose what's right for your campaign. If you want to boost your melee capabilities, take a dip into the Sohei monk archetype. Since they add all of the mounted combat feats to their monk bonus feats, you can grab Mounted Skirmisher at level 1 or 2 instead of waiting until level 11+. If you take a full 6 levels of Sohei, you can even snag Weapon Training (Spears), and flurry from the back of your mount with a lance. Throw in Spirited Charge and a Sohei 6 / Cavalier 3 would be able to charge on his mount, deal triple damage with the first hit, and then make two additional attacks with a total base attack routine of +7/+7/+2 (before any modifiers are added in). Meanwhile, it's only a DC 10 Ride check for your mount to take his attack(s) as well!The Sohei's Devoted Guardian ability drastically increases the likelihood that you'll move first and get that initial charge in, and his Monastic Mount ability will help make up for the level hit your mount is taking until you hit Cavalier 5 and can take Horse Master, bringing your mount back on par with a normal cavalier's mount, plus having all of the monk ki abilities available for it. I might ultimately end up going Sohei 12 / Cavalier 8, granting you the additional order ability for the cavalier levels, and giving you an extra attack and Weapon Training group for the Sohei that you can spend to flurry with a decent ranged weapon. Sohei 15 / Cavalier 5 is also a good split, you give up some cavalier abilities but gain the full Flurry chain for three extra attacks.
The other nice thing about that build is that your only must-have feats are Mounted Skirmisher, Spirited Charge and Horse Master (you'll probably want Mounted Combat too, though you don't have to have it thanks to your ki abilities and being able to skip pre-reqs with your monk bonus feats) so you can grab whatever feats sound fun for the rest of your feats without negatively impacting your damage very much.
**EDIT** So by the end of that, I realized that my recommendation had changed from a cavalier with a sohei dip, to a sohei with a cavalier dip. I stand by it though.
Gunslinger hit touch AC with full BaB. Grad 1 level of wizard(divener) and you set.
Foresight School
Associated School: Divination.Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the diviner's fortune and scrying adept powers of the divination school.
Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
This plus the hand full of gun spell, Arcane Strike to make gun magic
along deadly aim and the fact most gun are x4 weapons. Means you smoke stuff all day long. It so broke in my game we hand to chage the X4 to time x3 it was to good.Not sure if Prescience and +1 damage from Arcane Strike are worth the loss of BAB and delayed class features, though cantrips, 1st level spells and the ability to use magic items may be.
I've played gunslingers before with my other gaming group, and I really like the class (although I do hate the firearm mechanics), and it never seemed broken to me. Efficient, yeah, but never broken.
It 2 weapon Fighting with Rapid shot haste at level at 9 that six shot at Touch AC that Critical with x4 with 7th roll that you can swap if a N20. Note Touch is hard to get pass 20 most of the time it is 15 or so. Which if if any of the 7 rolls you made are N20 then then you confrim most of the time one any thing but a 1. And he should +9 damage(+5 DEX+1Point Blank +2Dealy Aim +1 Arcane Strike) X4 that 4d8+36 40Min,
54 average, 68 max. That is huge for no help and no magic weapon.
Magus, almost all diviners, almost all gishes, barbarian, samurai/cavalier, multiclass fighter and even sap-rogues and guide/IE-Ranger.
Guess that somehow covers every single martial class in the game.
Sure, vanilla fighter has some strengths - but its not damage.
Magus burns through his resources like there is no tomorrow, which against a calculating opponent may actually prove true (bbeg that let you run through his ranks before showing up). Or if you are a calculating magus you may spend your fights being uncool because a more serious treat may show up an hour later... They are also subject to more frequent appearance of SR the higher the level.
Diviners: as a diviner wizard you mean? what's so good about them? starting first? impressive, but that's best used for battlefield control imo. Anyway, damage sucks at lower levels, SR becomes a problem later on.
Barbarian: only if you go for certain options, like raging brutality or come and get me. The first requires you to nova like a magus, the second requires an enemy to attack you in the first place and it's quite feat intensive. The only true major point for barbarians is pounce, and you need to fly to use that consistently. Now, when I said that specific barbarian builds are better than vanilla fighters I was referring exactly to beast totem barbarians with come and get me, and I admit they are crazy good: the others? not better than a plain vanilla fighter.
Samurai/cavalier: mount dependant, and even then I'm not so sure about that, since if you compare mounted combatants you have to compare samurai/cavalier with the dragoon achetype, which is pretty good too.
multiclass fighters: well, yeah, I'd say that anything that isn't a full spellcaster can be improved by multiclassing.
sap rogues: another niche, which only deal nonlethal damage (a problem against undead). Requires set up of shaken (not possible for all enemies).
guide rangers or IE: limited use, you are great against bosses, if your DM prefers more similarly powerful enemies you are not nearly as impressive. Weapon training and gloves of dueling are almost as good as a maxed out favored enemy (+7/+7 vs +10/+10) even before weapon spec and are always on. Also, if you put all of your money in 3rd level pearls of power to cast IE you are optimizing for damage in my book.
I believe my points remains correct: vanilla fighter is better at dealing damage than vanilla anything else. Damage-focused anything else can rival and in some cases surpasses vanilla fighter in dealing damage, but at the expenses of much more.