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So who wants to be the Kenny Blankenchip to my Vic Romano?"Up next is Thoriel D'anton Babaganoush, famed halfling barbarian!"
"Famous for slaying the inamous dreaded Dire Turkey Dinner, You know what they say about Little Men with Big Weapons. Lets just hope hes not under equipped and has the Stomach for this match."
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I second the suggestion to make this *not* level 20.
The amount of time to make the builds, the possibility to screw up the builds, the length of time to adjudicate things like
Time stop, summon 634 archons... increases exponentially.We *might* get paizo support on a christmas tourney if we did it 11th level, and then use the mythic rules.
Off the top of my head: Here are the things that are important:
1. Range
2. Concealment
3. Hostile mooks: L/2 will attack closest player.
4. Rounds of buff allowed.
5. Is your opponents build known or unknownI'd suggest 5 or 6 arenas, with a variety of these combinations.
I'd suggest that we not allow LeaderShip, since this is best character, not best supporting cast. All other combinations legit.
For personal opinion, I think any restriction of how you spend money is arbitrary and unnecessary. Who cares?
The money break down simplified to just a set amount is fine. I'll just use the NPC guide unless there is a better list for PCs of a given level/
The only other question is which levels. I favor 9th but 11th sounds since it is max society level.
As for buffing it is an odd one. A round to buff lets fighters drink a potion as well as lets the mage put on mage armor...then again maybe the fighter just shoots the mage first with a arrow of slaying and calls it a day. So I'm in favor of everyone starting off unbuffed and having to choose to buff or attack.
2 out of 3 battle wins I think works.
Leadership out sounds good. it's going to be bad enough with all the summons and Eidelons running around.
Humans only...no. it is supposed to be a battle of the best combos so any of the races and classes from the 4 core books sounds good.
I'll play with making some maps later. Because why not? Even if you guys aren't into them it gets us all thinking about what will work better. Which was the reason i posted all of that information on the site.
we could even have a youtube channel for this, it'd be pretty cool, all we need is a decent animator or some LARPers
Some bard strumming on his lute just gets absolutely gaffled by AM BARBARIAN, out of nowhere.
Then AM disappears under a mound of lantern archons, tribble-style, while some master summoner does a victory touchdown dance in the background.
The money break down simplified to just a set amount is fine. I'll just use the NPC guide unless there is a better list for PCs of a given level/
Wouldn't the Character Wealth by Level work better?
Humans only...no. it is supposed to be a battle of the best combos so any of the races and classes from the 4 core books sounds good.
Works for me. I just wasn't sure if it would keep things simpler, but I agree that some races can make certain classes much more potent, so seems a good way to do it.
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we could even have a youtube channel for this, it'd be pretty cool, all we need is a decent animator or some LARPersSome bard strumming on his lute just gets absolutely gaffled by AM BARBARIAN, out of nowhere.
Then AM disappears under a mound of lantern archons, tribble-style, while some master summoner does a victory touchdown dance in the background.
Then it zooms out to show the Dungeon Master (played by Cristopher Walkin) watching the match on his Crystal Ball, Face palming then downing a packet of BC Powder.
THen Cue Series Logo
Remember this is still a work in progress and these are just the current ideas. All comments and ideas are welcome!
- So far it seems 10th level is a good tradeoff between sufficient power level and complexity to adjudicate the bout. If successful, it can be expanded in the future for matches on 1-20 levels. But for now, 10th level.
- I think multiclassing and non-human PHB races should be allowed. No holds barred as long from allowed sources.
- Core, UC, UM, and APG material only.
- PFS?
- Controversial builds like Rage-Lance-Pounce should be banned. I'm not sure how to define this though. Community vote?
- Standard character WBL for level 10 (62,000 gp)
- For prep time, I think the GMs should roll 1d4 -1. That would give 0 to 3 rounds of prep time. Contestants can cast buffing spells, set traps, etc.
- I think there should be different battlefield maps and which one to be used is randomly rolled as the battle begins. So far I came up with Forest, Caverns, Tundra, Sailing Ship, Labyrinth, Tavern, Beach, Swamp, Plains, City Square, Arena, and Temple. I need to get some somebody to draw the maps or draw them myself. They must be public domain so everybody can see them. Any suggestions or volunteers?
- Leadership lets you pick pregen NPCs from the Gamemastery guide. Nothing more.
- Lighting level should be randomized too with 1d6: 1 Bright,2-3 Normal, 4 Dim, 5 Dark, 6 Supernatural Dark.
- May pick two traits.
- Everybody gets 3 hero points for the entire length of the contest.
- Knocked out, put to sleep, turned to stone, dominated, and any other condition that leaves contestant helpless is a win.
I am so in.
I'll submit a Magus.
Can we do this with 20 or 25 pt buy?
10th level is cool but I really think all Paizo hardcover should be allowed. Advanced race guide and Dragon Empires, Paths of Prestige.
I am so in.
I'll submit a Magus.
Can we do this with 20 or 25 pt buy?
10th level is cool but I really think all Paizo hardcover should be allowed. Advanced race guide and Dragon Empires, Paths of Prestige.
20 point buy.
It needs to be only setting neutral material. And we need to keep the books to a reasonable limit or I think it will get too complicated to judge.
For example, if we allow ARG, would somebody be allowed to create a custom race?
Rolling for prep time is stupid as 3 heropoints are.
Level 10 is - lets say one of the unluckier levels to compare characters at.
You still have no rule on consumables
You still didnt say something about the frequency of the fights. Can you just go all nova every single fight?
Rolling for prep time is stupid as 3 heropoints are.
I'll rethink the hero points. What about rolling for prep you think is stupid? Is there a way to do it better?
Level 10 is - lets say one of the unluckier levels to compare characters at.
Why do you say that? And what level would you think is best?
You still have no rule on consumables
You mean, do they "reset" after every match? Not sure. What do you think would be a truer measure of character power?
You still didnt say something about the frequency of the fights. Can you just go all nova every single fight?
You mean use 100% of your resources? Similar to the consumables question. Good point. I need to consider that some more.
Heh, I was hoping to see equivalent CR monsters go at it, or hypothetical statted people from things that aren't in pathfinder (like people from movies, games, and comics. Oh well.
Dot.
Also dotting, though I feel I could not adequately build and represent a class. Although I'd love to see a Bard dominate... maybe I'd take that challenge... I dunno...
Honestly, I think it'd be very interesting to see low-to-mid-level characters going at it.. with basic gear. See how well the 5th level fighter and paladin fare when they only have normal-quality weapons and armor.
Level 11 is cool. I'd allow ARG racial options but no custom races.
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I agree with Loup. All those fancy items that people are talking about (Like an Amulet of Mighty Fists) are down the drain, and the only thing that you're allowed to have is basic gear. That is when the class would truly shine.
I'd also like to see different catigories, like one for level 5, one for 10, and one for 15. That way, people can see which classes do better at different levels. If there were 3 different tiers (Based at different levels) and someone from another tier wanted into a different one, then I'd say they can't pick the same class. Otherwise... that's about it.
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The money break down simplified to just a set amount is fine. I'll just use the NPC guide unless there is a better list for PCs of a given level/Wouldn't the Character Wealth by Level work better?
Humans only...no. it is supposed to be a battle of the best combos so any of the races and classes from the 4 core books sounds good.Works for me. I just wasn't sure if it would keep things simpler, but I agree that some races can make certain classes much more potent, so seems a good way to do it.
Wow thanks for that I couldn't remember where i saw that table. Wow that is much better amounts to work with.
Guess I'll throw in an oracle - probably not the best choice but hey - lets see.
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Rolling for prep time is stupid as 3 heropoints are.I'll rethink the hero points. What about rolling for prep you think is stupid? Is there a way to do it better?
Level 10 is - lets say one of the unluckier levels to compare characters at.Why do you say that? And what level would you think is best?
You still have no rule on consumablesYou mean, do they "reset" after every match? Not sure. What do you think would be a truer measure of character power?
You still didnt say something about the frequency of the fights. Can you just go all nova every single fight?You mean use 100% of your resources? Similar to the consumables question. Good point. I need to consider that some more.
I would think no hero points
I would do the matches as a reset every time. so all damage is removed and all consumables are replaced. This is a test of character building skills and class power so everything should reset every round. having the battles once a day for everyone to reset is a bit much.
After looking at the various levels 9 is when everyones special abilities kicks in but 11 is when all the warrior classes get their extra attack. rogues get their improved back stab, sorcerers get their bloodline power and wizards get their next level spells. I would go with 11. 10 has nothing going on, just more of the same.
I would also have another level at 4th to test out characters when they are just getting their first abilities.
I can do some of the maps. I already mocked one up and posted it earlier in the thread.
http://www.icheckfortraps.com/deadliest-warrior-pathfinder-edition/
lighting level should be based on the map. an underdark cave is completely black. Temple is bright day. Forest at twilight etc. Each should be different sight lines and different light levels.
Now how big should the maps be? I was thinking 120 feet or 60 feet. I have to run a few fights to see how well they work. but if they are too small then the faster characters will be across it turn one running over the halfling bard.
If we use ARG then it should be the pre generated races. nothing built. (that can be a whole other contest)
A few suggestions:
NO magical equipment. The point of the contest is to see which characters are the best, which characters are the most deadly, not which player can spend money the wisest. If its not a class feature or ability, then its immaterial to the very concept of such a contest.
Determine how and where combat begins. Is it in a broom closet, an arena with 100 feet separating combatants,in a particular environment or one determined randomly?
Standardize things like attribute buys and hit points - say half hit die +1/level and no attributes below 8? It'd be pretty silly to see a bunch of 7 INT, 7 WIS, 7 CHA characters running around regardless of class or concept.
In a fair contest, I'll put my Invulnerable Rager or my Paladin against all comers.
I agree with Loup. All those fancy items that people are talking about (Like an Amulet of Mighty Fists) are down the drain, and the only thing that you're allowed to have is basic gear. That is when the class would truly shine.
Could not agree more. If your class can't do it, it shouldn't be part of determining the best class now should it...?
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Resets favor nova builds and spell casters.I'd also favor max hp to maximize the difference between casters and fighter classes.
yeah but it is a test of everyone at their best. also monks barbarians etc also need a day to reset.
if the only way for a class to win is if the other class is unable to use its full power i don't think it works. I think the best way to play it is a reset. if a class can't deal with a wizards etc then it can't deal with them. That's kind of the point, to discover the best builds that allow a class to defeat the most other classes.
For hit points go with pathfinder society. they have a easy chart to use.
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No magic items gives an advantage to classes that make their own magic items (Paladins, Magus etc). It also penalizes Wizards for a class feature (arcane bonded item crafting as well as crafting feats though likely an optimal build would not craft much). Alchemists also would be penalized as brew potion is a level class feat.
I'd say use regular wealth by level but probably no custom or intelligent items (since pricing both is more of an artform than a fixed RAW.
I agree. There may need to be a list of items that can be used. Such as all listed magic items EXCEPT custom magic items, intelligent magic items or building your own items using craft skills. although the Alchemist can craft all is standard potions as normal. Also instant death items may need to be banned.
Here is a list from looking over the magic item charts.No item can have a bonus above +5.
Weapons and armor are enchanted with just a bonus no special powers. (this will keep vorpal out of the picture as well as other powers that mimic feats)
Potions are odd. It gives everyone access to spells. healing potions? wouldn't those just give healing to people who don't normally have it? I would think that they are out. Except for those used by Alchemist in creating his spells
Rings? protection only? again it gives people powers they don't normally have.
Staves, rods, scrolls and wondrous items? no they add spells to characters who don't have them normally. Or will get silly with everyone packing ioun stones and stat boosting their character.
maybe it might be better to use no magic items? if everyone is packing nuke scrolls and wands then it can get pretty insane. Alchemist is exempt, they can still make their usual potions.
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A few suggestions:
NO magical equipment. The point of the contest is to see which characters are the best, which characters are the most deadly, not which player can spend money the wisest. If its not a class feature or ability, then its immaterial to the very concept of such a contest.
Determine how and where combat begins. Is it in a broom closet, an arena with 100 feet separating combatants,in a particular environment or one determined randomly?
Standardize things like attribute buys and hit points - say half hit die +1/level and no attributes below 8? It'd be pretty silly to see a bunch of 7 INT, 7 WIS, 7 CHA characters running around regardless of class or concept.
In a fair contest, I'll put my Invulnerable Rager or my Paladin against all comers.
I would think the arena sets the starting distance. In most cases I would think opposite sides of field. 120 feet away.
Attributes i think use the PFS rules. With variable arenas you can't really gimp all the non critical stats or the WIS of 7 will really hurt seeing the rogue using stealth or the wizard who gimped his DEX on the ship fighting from rigging. The Arenas should test sets of skills.
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I found some maps, blue prints and other reference images for the follow arena ideas
Open Arena: Straight up 120 x60 oval surrounded by water. very simple fight to the death arena. all about speed and range here. Hope you have a mount.
Old forests Bottom: 120x120 terrain full of trees brush and other obstacles
Old Forest Top: 120x120 ewok like village, bridges, vines 2 levels from platforms to branches. fall is 200 feet...20d6 will probably mean you died... if not little furry gremlins beat you to death no their not ewoks there...um... Kowes yeah thats it... a fall is a loss.
The Under Dark 120x120. This is dark. there are patches of crystals that shed some light but you'll need to bring your own equipment to handle the light or have dark vision. Lots of cover and various heights of rocks. some climbing but stealth and perception win the day here.
Boarding party: 120x70 (the ship is actually that size) Two sailing ships hull to hull. fire, smoke and lots of sails and ropes to deal with. 3 levels. main deck, lower deck and masts and rigging. just to simplify things. This requires lots of acrobatics, climbing, stealth rich environment.
Grave yard: small amounts of cover from tomb stones a few crypts to get higher and a few trees but this environment favors the necromancer and druid classes not to mention lots of cover for melee classes to close in on those necromancers and druids.
hilly field: 120x120 rolling fields with open area and little line of sight still allows the cavalier to charge home. Everyone else will have to stay on their toes. Some rough patches that can make the horse lame if the rider fails their riding check. Bonus to charge at bottom of hill and penalty to charge if going up hill. litle cover
Street Fight: A 120x120 maze of city streets. Day time with pedestrians that must not be killed in battle none inside houses. all houses 1 story so lots of roofs to climb on to and garden walls to leap. speed and agility and perception will help.
Streets at Night: 120x120 maze of streets at night. No pedestrians. many lights but lots of places to hide from direct view. favors the close in combat classes
The Hierophant. This is a 120x120 "t" shaped Ruined temple. many columns but long avenues for people to charge along. some raised areas but mostly level with obstacles.
those are the ideas i have so far.
This is Jin.
He'll need some tweaking but is currently my entry. I'll probably lose blade bound for the familiar arcana or Maybe Eldritch Heritage?
Can we confirm level 10? 20 points? HP equal to 1/2die +1 and normal WBL.
I am so down for this!
No x/day consumables (celestial armor, boots of haste...)
Maybe even no potions and items that can be activated by any build without restrictions.
Scrolls, wands and so on are fine.
Non magic items are always usable.
No magic items gives an advantage to classes that make their own magic items (Paladins, Magus etc). It also penalizes Wizards for a class feature (arcane bonded item crafting as well as crafting feats though likely an optimal build would not craft much). Alchemists also would be penalized as brew potion is a level class feat.
I'd say use regular wealth by level but probably no custom or intelligent items (since pricing both is more of an artform than a fixed RAW.
Um... that's kind of the point. Its about what the classes can do, isn't it? Paladins and the Magus aren't complaining that Fighters get weapon training (the same as having a magical weapon enhancement bonus) or all those feats are they?
Nothing I hate more than someone telling me how great their Fighter is and then listing all of his equipment. Gloves of Dueling, Boots of Flying, weapons that are speed-enhanced, Cloaks of Resistance... that AIN'T your character, that's your stuff. If you need a crutch to survive then you lose, plain and simple.
Arcane bonded items are fine for what they do, and I'm pretty sure that alchemists get all kinds of extracts and bombs and mutagens already - anyone can take brew potion but if they want to sit there and try to brew a potion in the arena while I'm hacking away at them, then by all means.
no magic items is not going to work because spellcaster will be even more superior.
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spell casters will have an advantage at range but once in range they are going to hurt real bad. But that is the point of this. how bad can they hurt you before you get close.
how dangerous the classes are will be determined at how far apart everyone is.
I think at this point we have enough rules to try it out.
I posted everything on my site but used some options that weren't talked about so i'll leave them out (Level 4 battles and dice averaging for damage)
DEADLIEST WARRIOR
You know all those people who say class x can beat all other classes? Here's their chance to "prove" it (or at least get bragging rights until the next contest.)
BATTLE 3 battles. Best 2 out of three wins the title of Deadliest Warrior. Reset after every battle. (contestants in tiered battles are assumed to be healed by the game masters and given a day to recharge)
STARTING All contests start immediately. There is no prep time before entering the arena. Once in they may use any buffs or attacks they have.
WINNING Whom ever is rendered incapable of continuing combat looses. You can win by killing your opponent, turning them into a tree, blowing them up or encasing them in rock with no way of escape, tossing them off a cliff or otherwise incapacitating or any other way of rendering your opponent incapable of mounting an attack.
ARENA All battles are fought in one of the arenas (list is growing) (Size is still to be determined). Each Arena will test different combinations of skills and ranges.
CORE RULES Core Rules, Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic.
CLASS Pick one class and make it the Deadliest Warrior.
LEVEL 11
RACES Any races in the books listed above.
ATTRIBUTES 20 points using normal progression chart
ATTRIBUTE, COST
7, –4 (You get back points)
8, –2 (You get back points)
9 , –1 (You get back points)
10 , 0
11 , 1
12 , 2
13 , 3
14 , 5
15 , 7
16 , 10
17 , 13
18 , 17
HIT POINTS Use Pathfinder Society Rules for hit points
CLASS, HIT DICE, 1ST LVL HP, HP PER LEVEL*
Barbarian d12, 12, 7
Cavalier/Fighter/Gun Slinger/
Paladin/Samurai d10, 10, 6
Alchemist/Cleric/Druid/Inquisitor/
Magus/Monk/Ninja/Oracle/
Ranger/Summoner/ d8, 8, 5
Bard/Rogue/Witch d6, 6, 4
Sorcerer/Wizard d4, 4, 3
* Add CON bonus and any other HP bonuses from other sources such as Toughness.
MONEY 82,000 gp
GEAR You can buy all gear, weapons and armor listed in the books. Magic items will not be allowed except those that are part of the class. Alchemist get their potions and magus his weapon etc.. Others that get magic items as part of the class are still allowed to have them but may not purchase new items or craft items.
RULE QUESTIONS: Masterwork? is that considered no no?
Otherwise i think that is all of it.
No magic items? None at all? You should allow stat-boosters and stuff like that.
Ok, level11 is actually worse than 10, so you might consider going with 10, as full BAB classes will get their thirs attack at 11.
You're not even having 1h/level buffs up? Then - without any doubts melees without endurance feat have to put on their armor in the arena or start with the mali of sleeping in armor.
I was kind of under the impression that this was the deadliest warrior competition. Comparing casters and martials is truly comparing apples and oranges... have a competition for full and partial casters and a competition for martials separately.
But NO magic items. The contest isn't to see how wisely you can cover a class's weaknesses by spending gold...
More and more in a purely martial contest I'm thinking that a well-made tripping Lore Warden with a reach weapon that had a high crit chance (like a Fauchard) would be next to unbeatable.
Well, apart from a Zen Archer who could move faster than anyone and kite a foe to death.
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The dea of 2 out of 3 battles is to deal with bad rolls so every battle should be exactly the same. So a match of three tries will reset each time and be on one arena.
I think the arena should swap, that way the versitility of the class can come into play.
And should it only be Single Classes? I mean, what about the Prestige Classes?
If you put all classes togehter you HAVE to allow magic items and consumables. Otherwise every caster that can do it just goes improved invis + fly + summons and kills every martial with no chance of retaliation...
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I'd say the only magic item allowed would be a Headband or a Belt and only with the casting stat or more useful stat for the class. Fighter would get Str, Cleric would get Wis, etc.
And should it only be Single Classes? I mean, what about the Prestige Classes?
The only problem with this is the Prestige Classes start at a higher level and can come from any of the base classes.
Sure, who wouldn't want to see the Holy Vindicator or the Master Spy come out on top, but a Paladin or a Cleric can be the Holy Vindicator, and the Master Spy can be any Rogue, Ranger, or anyone with a good rank set.
To top it off, the Prestige Classes are mostly multi-classes, so the biggest problem is who would come out on top if a Rage Prophet won? The Oracles or the Barbarians?
I'd throw my hat into the ring if I knew what I was doing for building stuff. Still keeping track of stuff!
Magic Items are part of this games balance system. Not considering them will 1) influence the balance and 2) make up duels that are not representative for actual pathfinder characters