I find this suprising. Never expected a call for fans to fund the making of the game.
An MMO to compete with WoW, Age of Conan, LOTR, etc, that's significantly paid for via kickstarter? I never would have guessed this. Kinda feels like the scifi channel D&D movies. Not what I'd expect from the prestige of the company involved.
Regardless, good luck.
Goblin Squad Member
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I'm honestly disappointed to see this. The tech test demo was not anything to fawn over. And as much as I love some ideas for your game, and would love to actually get in early and help shape the world... But I need to pay $100 to do so. During the holiday season when money is already flying out the window left and right.
Best of luck developing your game, but you've definitely lost this person's support.
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We just went live!
Ryan - What you did for gamers by providing the OGL will never be forgotten. I am so thrilled about your partnership with PAIZO and look forward to years of game-filled days led by leaders (like you and Lisa/Eric/James) that provide us roleplaying consumers with quality products. Thanks again for all you've done, and all you're doing with Goblinworks.
Regards,
Pax Veritas
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@DM Andy - the Tech Demo was a success in all respects and as a result of the Tech Demo we have secured the financing we need to put the game into production.
The Kickstarter allows us to make the game bigger, better and FASTER than we can with the financing we've already lined up. And that reduces the risks we face in making the game, and it will let us make a better product.
I'll "never say never", but I don't anticipate needing to do a 3rd Kickstarter to finance basic development of the game through to release.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For everyone who is upset at this, I'd ask you to consider the value being offered in return for the pledge. I just pledged at the Crowdforger Buddy level ($175), but in exchange I'm getting two copies of the game, and two 3-month game subscriptions. At $40 per game copy, and $15 a month subscription (first month included), that's $140 I would have spent regardless. So I shelled out another $35 to help get the game built and get early access so I can help shape the game.
No-brainer.
For Ryan and Lisa et al., three of the important considerations in my pledge level were:
1) That you delivered on the tech demo.
2) The moves towards financial trabsparency in the Tech Demo update (disclosure matters a lot to me)
3) The chance to piggyback people into the game. My gf isn't pumped for this the way I am, but she will defintely want to play with me, so this is important. For any guilds that want in, having a chance to come in as a group is a big deal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sign me up for participating in the Crowdforging process (& playing PfO) in 1.5yrs, so I've backed the kickstarter. To rationalize: The combination of rapid development and involvement with the community exhibited on the forums is the swing decision of taking on more risk than normal. Needless to say, very happy with Goblin Works thus far.
I won't deny that the Crowdforger Alpha backing level is tempting.
Before I 'put my money where my mouth is', can you give us some indication of what our $1,000,000 is going to provide to Goblinworks that your other funding is not?
Also, can you elaborate a little on exactly what the various packs are going to give us?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Should the 'Crowdforger Guild' be 'Crowdforger Company'? or are we changing terminology? When I think of a 'guild' I think of more than 6. And a company has been described as a party that decides they want to play together.
Nice to see that you have to buy into the game early, weed out a good chunk of the 'bad' community during early crowdforging.
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On another note, here is my prediction:
By January 20th, there will be at least one post, and at least 2 responses in agreement with the OP. They will claim that they just got ripped off, because they didn't read all the info and didn't realize the game was open PvP, and lost $100.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm honestly disappointed to see this. The tech test demo was not anything to fawn over.
It's a matter of expectations. I'm going to guess you wanted to see things like combat and spell animations. Those things are cool and important, but to the best of my understanding are end of development priorities. The Tech Demo was about showing a client-server connection, 3D artwork, how the middle-ware client renders visuals, basic AI, etc.
So if you expact the Tech Demo to be about the window dressing and decorations, you're going to be underwhelmed, whereas if you are looking for the foundation for something solid and workable, you're going to be really happy with the Tech Demo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... can you give us some indication of what our $1,000,000 is going to provide to Goblinworks that your other funding is not?
We want to build Pathfinder Online quicker and with more content than our current financing will allow.
It buys a faster development time frame, more content, and better polish.
Bigger! Better! Faster!
Doshi, I think you need to read up on the blog. The game's business model is free to play. To train skills you need to have skill training time which you can buy with a) in-game currency, b) cash from the Skymetal store or c) a subscription.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To train skills you need to have skill training time which you can buy with a) in-game currency...
That's misleading.
You'll be able to trade with other players in-game to get their Skill Training Packages, but that will depend on there being another player who wants to trade with you. It's not like you'll be able to buy it from an NPC Vendor at a fixed cost of in-game currency.
Yeah, that's a fair point. I can explain it well in real life but always get a mental block typing it out.
Anyway, I need to go work out January's budget to see which out of the $500 and $1000 levels I'm backing.
Edit: Would we get various badges in the forum to show our levels? ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not overly pleased that a second Kickstarter has begun. I'm all for supporting a project through Kickstarter; paying for a game 4 years prior to it's release is one thing, $100 for an early beta slot another, but asking for funding to the tune of $1,000,000 from our collective pockets is something else.
I could almost relax if not for the inevitability of a third kickstarter campaign should this one result in success.
I don't know if the community knows or if they're ignoring the knowledge that funding an MMORPG for no return and no assurances on the outcome of the game itself - it is a fools errand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My main issue with this (and what I have posted on the Kickstart project comments) is that we're being asked to not only fund well in advance (further in advance than most games) but that we're also being asked to pay a subscription fee during the Early Access or "Beta" period for all levels at $100 plus.
I've never paid for a Beta MMO. I've paid subs on some MMOs that SHOULD have still been in beta, yes. But actually being forced to pay in order to test is a problem for me.
I funded the tech demo generously. (Over $100? Can't remember off the top of my head.) I did so with the understanding that Goblinworks would ten secure funding.
At this point it is clear that they have not actually done so. If they had, we wouldn't be paying for Beta.
I strongly suggest that the policy on early access and subscriptions be changed. This is a very bad thing for the stability and health of the "early access" period that Ryan and co would like us to think is going to be so very successful. (How many people will quit over the fee when they're playing a buggy, beta test? How much input will be lost?)
The funding model here is wrong. Do it all from investors and kickstarting.
Anything else is double dipping. (Speaking from experience I can say that anyone who has ever worked on an MMO knows how valuable early testers are. You'd PAY THEM if you could.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've never paid for a Beta MMO.
Have you ever been able to keep your character from a Beta?
PFO is "outside the box". It's not cookie-cutter. Judge it on its own merits, not compared to the other games you've played.
I did so with the understanding that Goblinworks would ten secure funding.
At this point it is clear that they have not actually done so.
That's simply wrong. As they've said quite clearly, they've secured funding to sustain their current burn rate indefinitely.
Corwynn, Ryan has stated that they have already secured alternate funding but that this Kickstarter will allow them to shave a year off of development time.
You're also RECEIVING a three-month game subscription. I agree it isn't clearly worded as to whether a subscription will be in place for the beta but I would suspect this to mean a three-month subscription at release. We're obviously looking to Ryan to clear that up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have you ever been able to keep your character from a Beta?
In a few of those MMOs there was no wipe, yeah.
PFO is "outside the box". It's not cookie-cutter. Judge it on its own merits, not compared to the other games you've played.
Thank you for the lecture. I could say something unflattering here, but I suspect if you read what you wrote and think about it you can probably come up with an idea of why what you posted is pretty, uh, rude.
That's simply wrong. As they've said quite clearly, they've secured funding to sustain their current burn rate indefinitely.
I'm sorry, but actually securing funding means that you don't pay for beta access in my world. Perhaps I am just simply too traditional for this "brave new world" of making games without any real backing. Something about not digging paying hundreds of dollars to enjoy BSODs, rollbacks, system changes, etc.
I get that you're in lust, but I'm obviously putting my money where my mouth is. I have backed the first one. I am currently backing at $175 on this one. I have as much right to point out problems with the process as you do.
My point is that this plan is very likely to work far worse than you, or Goblinworks seems to imagine. For YOU and for THEM maybe this is the holy grail. For the vast majority of people in the space, this is a single game that might be worth playing.
Start charging for Beta access and you may very well see a pretty high churn when those free months wear off.
If that's acceptable (and it should not be in my eyes) then they should go ahead. If that's seen as a problem (and it should be) there needs to be a different tact chosen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Corwynn, Ryan has stated that they have already secured alternate funding but that this Kickstarter will allow them to shave a year off of development time.
You're also RECEIVING a three-month game subscription. I agree it isn't clearly worded as to whether a subscription will be in place for the beta but I would suspect this to mean a three-month subscription at release. We're obviously looking to Ryan to clear that up.
You are incorrect. That has in fact been clarified. This is why I am concerned.
From the project comments:
We think of the Beta more like Gmail Beta than a Beta Test. The purpose of the Beta isn't to test, it's to start with a very small, very controlled environment and number of users, and allow the system to grow and change based on the needs of real people. Our "theory" of what needs to be developed can get us to the start of Beta, but after that, we know we need the input and participation of the community to make the game as good as we think it can be.
Being an Early Enrollee means you're not just a player - you're having a direct effect on prioritizing features and helping us determine how to implement features. The game will literally be built in part to your specifications.
We think that's an experience worth paying for, and it helps us make Pathfinder Online Bigger, Better and FASTER, and we think that's a fair trade.
The problem here being that a) I didn't pay for Gmail Beta, nor do I pay for Gmail now. b) being one of thousands of people is no different than sitting on forums for any MMO . . . for every idea you or I have, fifty other ideas exist to be considered . . . so it's not like paying for Beta gets us anything more than a small voice in a large (whatever they might like to say, thousands is thousands, and isn't much different from the engaged core of a AAA MMO) process. c) You STILL have to put up with the bugs of early access . . . it's not going to be a game that actually functions as it should . . . and for that you get to pay them. d) The people who directly benefit from PFO coming out sooner are the investors and Goblinworks . . . yet the players have to foot part of that bill, in excess of the cost of the game, a subscription, or even a small fee to secure early access . . . they profit all the way . . . fab work if you can get it, but a bad deal for the early access folks.
For those like me who have done a $175 if we just take a baseline of $15 a month (industry standard) and multiply it by two (number of people who get access with that pledge) for six months (the six of nine not free . . . and the early access period is not guaranteed to only last 9 months) you're looking at $180 extra . . . so more than the original pledge.
This is a problem when people start to drop out of the process, leaving holes not only in the "crowdforging" but also in the game itself. More players in an MMO is vital. Putting a barrier on playing beta (sub fee) means fewer players, means less success.
Like you all, I want this to work.
Unlike some of you I don;t see how charging your testers while they are helping you build and ensure a bug free release is productive.
Personally I'd be interested to know what MMOs you've played where there was no wipe. For any MMO that I'm aware of that is aiming at the same level as Pathfinder, there has been a wipe.
Second, from what Vic Wertz and Ryan Dancey have both said on the forums, this game has the backing to release the game in 2016. It's 'money in the bank' to coin a phrase. What this Kickstarter is about is helping to release the game earlier than that projected date. As a reward for that backing, you get into beta early and we've not yet cleared up whether you will have to pay for the beta, which given the game will be free-to-play would seem at odds with their business model.
Edit: Okay, you posted before my post. If they're going down this route, that would also mean that they have to implement the business model they've proposed which would also mean you don't need to pay the subscription once your free subscription runs out. Perhaps they should change the terminology. It very much sounds to me like they'll polish a small set of features and then their development schedule will follow what the crowd wants.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I'd be interested to know what MMOs you've played where there was no wipe. For any MMO that I'm aware of that is aiming at the same level as Pathfinder, there has been a wipe.
Second, from what Vic Wertz and Ryan Dancey have both said on the forums, this game has the backing to release the game in 2016. It's 'money in the bank' to coin a phrase. What this Kickstarter is about is helping to release the game earlier than that projected date. As a reward for that backing, you get into beta early and we've not yet cleared up whether you will have to pay for the beta, which given the game will be free-to-play would seem at odds with their business model.
Apparently you are not reading the same things I am reading.
Subscription during early release and Subscriptions + Hybrid Microtransactions post release is what they have stated TODAY.
The problem is many people will assume that nobody has to pay during early access. What happens when they actually get their 3 months early access and it runs out and they're sitting there with a half-broken game going "why the heck am I paying for this" . . .
Again, the only people who directly profit from an earlier release are the investors and Goblinworks. They're apparently wanting to make that happen on the backs of the users. That, to me, is disingenuous, and contrary to the actual crowdfunding and investing spirit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Paid beta is becoming the new norm for small studio games, or at least having the option to pre-purchase with guaranteed beta access while also having a random pool. Goblinworks has at least admitted their game will be in a beta stage when it is released.
I like paid beta, people are less inclined to 'try out' the game through a free beta period.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Paid beta is becoming the new norm for small studio games, or at least having the option to pre-purchase with guaranteed beta access while also having a random pool. Goblinworks has at least admitted their game will be in a beta stage when it is released.
I like paid beta, people are less inclined to 'try out' the game through a free beta period.
Do me a favor and list me some MMOs with paid betas?
Hmm. Well then you have a fair point, Corwynn, and it then comes down to the individual as to whether or not they're willing to pay the subscription.
On a personal level, I am stoked for this game in a way that I haven't been for a long time and MMOs are my main theatre of gaming. The opportunity to help mould an MMO that I intend to play for years to come is something that I value highly.