Goblin Squad Member
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I dont really understand the angst around a second kickstarter. I appreciate that some people dont want to contribute a second time around and think that's fair enough. In contrast I'm contributing a second time around and am very unlikely to play the game. We each pay what we want to and there dont seem to be many losers to my mind.
It seems like even the people who wont chip in will benefit if the game is produced earlier right? I mean if the kickstarter brings the release forward a year then, even if it takes you twelve months before you're accepted into the game, you havent actually lost anything. If you can get in earlier than the general public (based on contributing the first time around) you're likely to get to play earlier than you would otherwise - for no outlay of cash. How is that bad?
I've always liked the fact that kickstarter and similar puts a lot of power in the hands of the consumer. I can pay what I want for something (as little as zero if I have no interest) and it seems like even those who dont contribute benefit from the 'fiscally enthusiastic'.
That's not directed at anyone in particular - I just struggle to see the logic behind requesting Goblinworks not ask for money from other people. (Or rather the logic behind requesting that Goblinworks not sell a service one doesnt want to other people).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know where you get that impression. A crafting based economy means the exploits filters through the whole system very differently. (snip)
Themepark MMOs have a lot more variables than player generated content. Players adapt faster than the game does. An exploit of the game is and can be repeated many times. Players will adjust to such exploit and compensate for it. This is true for Themepark and Sandbox. Now specifically about which one is damaged more through exploits is another matter.
This might be long...please indulge me.
Themepark has a set amount of content and that's it. Basically it's as if someone reads an Adventure Path to you and that's it. The GM doesn't vary from the story. It's not tailored to the party because it needs to be generic for everyone to experience it. If there is an exploit or something that's seriously broken, then that's content that all players miss out on. Until that issue is fixed, it will severely impact the world. The players are reliant upon the game company to fix the issue ASAP or further damage can be done to the game world. People leave when the content isn't engaging and they have nothing else to do.
Age of Conan launched and died 3 weeks later because of this (well not died, but close.) Warhammer Online was the same thing. It tried having RvR, but didn't go far enough on the UGC part. This created lack of content and people left. SWTOR people enjoyed until they reached the end game. Lack of content. All of these and many more hit the same issue. When you don't have enough content to keep people entertained, they will leave. I'm not saying that Themeparks are bad. I'm just saying they have certain risks to them. The major one is limited, scripted content. Every major bug/exploit that threatens that content, diminishes the game as a whole. And I'm not even getting into massive guilds that quit because another guild beat them to world first in some random raid using an exploit as an example.
Sandbox has a near infinite amount of content. It's only limitation is the tenacity, imagination and fortitude of its players. Basically it's a GM that runs the Adventure Path for you. It can be tailored to the party. This allows the experience to be a rare one, if not unique. If there's an exploit or something broken, the players can adjust. The trick is not having enough tool sets for people to create stuff, if one happens to break. This builds exponential content in many forms with varying tastes. Then you add in the PvP, if that's your thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ghormagon
Go look at all the other sandboxes in development, they are all doing the same thing to raise additional funds and improve the content level at launch.
Secondly, Paizo and GW are two separate companies. Paizo is not funding PFO, they are helping to get things started. GW is it's own company, and both kickstarters are for GW.
So your disappointment seems to be misdirected.
Many of you have raised great points, some of which really resonate with me. For example, contributing to a Kickstarter is a matter of choice, with no expectation or pressure to do so. The greatest aspect to a Kickstarter, I'm sure you'd all agree.
Here's the rub, and where I begin to be concerned where this is going. The first Kickstarter included a significant portion, IMO, of it's rewards focus on providing its supporters with table-top gaming material inline with what the sandbox is going to be. Great, Fantastic! More great material from Paizo, where can you go wrong?
Here's where. If you are Kickstarting an MMO, maintain and hold your resources within the development and delivery of the MMO, not a tabletop game and vice versa. Granted, I've only taken a quick peak at the incentives for the 2nd Kickstarter, but it looks like they are doing it again to some extent.
Why? If you need $1M to get this baby done bigger, better and faster (as previous posts have noted), why are you diverting these much needed resources into areas that do not support the completion and delivery of your Kickstarter project?
Why does this bother me, and why not just quietly not support it? Because to me the direction of this Kickstart is reminiscent in my mind of what another company did, which lead to the creation of another company that followed a "path" the fan community loved. Needless to say, the first company didn't really make the impact they hoped for and are playing catch-up to the company who found a better "path".
@Ghormagon
Go look at all the other sandboxes in development, they are all doing the same thing to raise additional funds and improve the content level at launch.
Secondly, Paizo and GW are two separate companies. Paizo is not funding PFO, they are helping to get things started. GW is it's own company, and both kickstarters are for GW.
So your disappointment seems to be misdirected.
Everything you've said is correct, and I make no assumptions that they are one and the same. Let's be honest here, GW would not be making Pathfinder Online without Paizo's involvement/cooperation/support, whatever. The fact remains, they are working together to make this happen because they mutually have something to gain. Nothing wrong with that, by and large.
I believe I explained it a little better in my second post, and tried to help those who disagree with me understand where I'm coming from. Not to agree with me, mind you, but to just understand where this perspective comes from.
As to my disappointment being misdirected, I don't agree with you, but respect your perspective.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why does this bother me, and why not just quietly not support it? Because to me the direction of this Kickstart is reminiscent in my mind of what another company did, which lead to the creation of another company that followed a "path" the fan community loved. Needless to say, the first company didn't really make the impact they hoped for and are playing catch-up to the company who found a better "path".
If you are trying to imply that Goblinworks is taking the Pathfinder Online game in the direction of some sort of 4E MMO, then who is going to be playing the part of Paizo here?
I don't get the comparison at all (and not everyone hates 4E).
They are trying to raise money. To have them offering novels and Pathfinder game material and musical soundtracks doesn't mean that they are not working on the MMO.
It means that they are trying to reach out to people that might be on the fence about MMOs.
People that do not play MMOs but that do enjoy fantasy novels might decide to help out and donate a few bucks to get that novel.
People that like Pathfinder but not so much MMOs may have been convinced to donate to the tech demo to get the Thornkeep book, with or without autographs.
There is MMO stuff in there. There are the free months and the game packs.
Maybe they could offer players some sort of non-combat pet or another, or all sorts of exclusive in-game goodies, but that is a double-edged sword.... If they have their MMO people spending time working on extra stuff just to give away to supporters, then it actually takes away time that they could have spent getting the game ready.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for admitting you are not fully informed.
I suggest reading the second kickstarter then. It offers no TT resources, just a novel based on the game(probably a collaboration with paizo, with paizo doing most of the work), a soundtrack, and a short guide to one of the NPC forts in the game. Nothing that would take a noticeable portion of the second kickstarter funds or GW's time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A reminder some of you should read
Just to be clear of what I am saying. Some of us asked for this. That was not the only topic in which members of the community asked for a 2nd chance to contribute. I did not favor a 2nd kickstarter but I am glad to have another opportunity to contribute more.
Some of us really want to be a part of this project's success and it seriously makes us angry to see people attack GW over doing something we asked them to do. NOBODY is requiring you to take part in this 2nd kickstarter. So shame on YOU.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have tossed in my support to this Kickstarter and I am now curious what would happen with my Day One $100 Crowdforger Pioneer rewards if I was to get some friends to join me in gathering enough cash for the $175 Crowdforger Buddy or the $500 Crowdforger Guild level investments after there are no longer any available Month One slots remaining for those investment levels.
I do not know if I can get my Table Top Buddies to throw down enough cash to actually get together a $500 Crowdforger Guild Investment, but if I did....would it be possible to lose my Month One Slot?
Would I be better off getting my friends to make a contribution separate from my own as to not risk my current place in line?
Just a note, the Crowdforger Guild level currently only has 23 of the first month 200 spots taken. I am also planning on going this route. I am not too worried about it at the moment, though who knows how many others are trying to organize this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm torn.
I'm sure several of the posters on this thread remember my aversion to the non-consensual PvP aspect to PFO. I (mostly) got over this, aided by an old friend who was a PvP maven in the old EQ Zek days. I had already tossed in $100 to the original Kickstarter, and I'd like to get in on the beta so as to maximize my chances of setting up solidly in game to avoid the majority of person-to-person conflicts. I'll have to do a little more research, but I'll throw a few questions out for those who have been following things closer than I. Apologies if any of this is redundant.
1. Is there any benefit to being involved in the first Kickstarter synergistically to the second? A discount, an upgrade, etc?
2. From what little I have read the beta experiences/changes will not be erased at the general opening, is this correct?
3. If you don't get five people together as one group to Kickstart, can you set up associations during the beta anyway?
Thanks in advance to any who can answer this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. Is there any benefit to being involved in the first Kickstarter synergistically to the second? A discount, an upgrade, etc?
I am not aware of any... yet. If you remember the first Kickstarter, you remember how the rewards at the various Pledge Levels began increasing as new Stretch Goals were met. I would expect something like that to happen this time as well - in fact it already has, as Ryan has given everyone at the Pioneer level an extra month.
2. From what little I have read the beta experiences/changes will not be erased at the general opening, is this correct?
That is the plan. If you get into Early Enrollment Beta during month one, you should be able to create a character on day one and still be playing it for many years after the Open Enrollment and full release happens.
3. If you don't get five people together as one group to Kickstart, can you set up associations during the beta anyway?
I expect to be able to at least form Chartered Companies during the Early Enrollment Beta. Some of the more advanced organizations probably won't happen for several months or a year, since they're going to be developing the systems for Settlements and Player Nations during that time.
