Tower shields are for your hirelings to carry and plop down in front of you when you're Heavy Crossbow sniping at enemy officers.
Personally, I allow Armor Training to affect shields too. I'm not even sure if that's not already possible, but who cares? It's not like the Fighter will suddenly break the game because he's better with shields.
BTW, Not only I saw your build, but I think I even commented about it, man. And you answered me! lol.I remember you comenting about the tactician build. I posted anohter build before that.
I remember you actually pointing out Point-Blank Master to me when I commented that your build would be in trouble if forced into melee...
Thena gain, maybe it was someone else? Or a different build? I dunno... I don't thrust my memory and am too lazy to check now. lol
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Are you talking about someone in this thread? I haven't seen any posts in the thread talking about the game being broken. Could you point one out to me?
Sure.
1/4 levels is not versatility of feats. heh. Although, I wonder if level 0 counts as one of those levels? I could certainly live without tower shield prof.
==Aelryinth
Huh... Now that you mention it, Fighters would certainly be more interesting if they could trade their armor/shield proficiency for other combat feats. That'd make it easier to build duelists, for example. And dedicated archers could live without heavy armor proficiency.
Hmm... I might add that to my homebrew Fighter... haha...
After encountering a really friendly dm that allows players to make what they want, and not what the rules force you to play, what I allowed changed.
Okay so how this guy did it is as follows, you can't jut swap things out, you have to pay a price. So you couldn't swap heavy armour out for a feat, but you might be able to swap heavy and medium armour prof out for a feat. For the duellist, you keep your shield proficiency (bucklers?) and you have a feat to use. You can change your skills around, but you have to lose two skill choices to gain one that you want. You pay the price, but get more choice. Each individual knowledge counts, so to make a court fighter/bodyguard, you might jettison some skills to get sense motive, knowledge nobility, perception. Choosing to lose craft, handle animal, dungeoneering, swim, survival, profession.
Fighter doesn't have many skills to lose, so it is best for 1-2 new skills, but they do have class abilities that might not get used much (tower shield and all shield prof might be able to be swapped for a feat if you want to make a two hander or archer, or be swapped for more skills).
You might want to try that, see how it goes.
Personally, I allow Armor Training to affect shields too. I'm not even sure if that's not already possible, but who cares? It's not like the Fighter will suddenly break the game because he's better with shields.
True, but I'm talking about the normal fighter. Not our house rules. I think PF monk is terrible, but my group uses a monk that works. :P
Tower shield specialist apply his armor training to tower shields. Theier dex bonus to ac caps at +9.
It is the only martial archetype that I would consider for tower shields.
Firstly, I said Fighter. Second, Tower Shield Specialist is a trap and is no good without house-ruling or home-brewing fixes for it. Like much of the material published lately it is pretty terrible and actually doesn't do anything you think it should.
At 3rd level, a tower shield specialist gains armor training as normal, but while he employs a tower shield, the armor penalty is reduced by 3 and the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor increases by 2. The benefit increases every four levels thereafter as per standard armor training; if the tower shield specialist is not employing a tower shield, the benefits to armor training revert to the normal bonuses.
Armor Training functions as normal (Armor Training) except that when you're using a Tower Shield your armor penalty (check penalty?) is reduced by 3 and the maximum dexterity bonus that your armor allows is increased by 2. Unfortunately that's pretty useless. Why? Because Tower Shields are the only shield to apply a Maximum Dexterity Bonus to your AC, and the max is +2. And the description notes that tower shields are wooden only, and thus no Mithral for you.
Now it doesn't change the way Armor Training works. Armor Training applies to your armor worn. It doesn't reduce the check penalty for shields, nor the maximum Dex bonus for shields, and still doesn't. So your result is doing this...
You're wearing Banded Mail (+0 Dex), and a Tower Shield (+2 Dex). You have this ability which raises your max Dex your armor provides by +4 total, but you're still capped at +2 due to your Tower Shield which Armor Training does nothing to help. Nor does it help alleviate the -10 check penalty from the Tower Shield, only serves to further reduce the check penalty from your armor. So, perhaps humorously, you are still limited to a +2 Dex no matter what level you are, unless you're not wielding a tower shield. This ability is effectively worthless. Just to show that honestly a lot of archtypes are made of suck.
Sure.
Hm?
My opinion on the bonus feats are that they are awesome. Especially the retraining part!!!
And to point out Heavy, medium, light armor pros and shields all count as bonus feats for the fighter to retrain. Sure it will take sometime though to train out which ones of those you don't want :P
I'm pretty sure that this is 100% inaccurate. Though I think you're joking, right? :P
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Actually, going of strict RAW, the armor and shield feats say fighters get this as a bonus feat". So while it certainly cant be RAI, i think the fighter can retrain them. I think it could eveb trade heavy armor prof away, take a level of cavalier and regain it, and ten continue taking fighter levels and retrain it away again!
Sorry cav does not work as it doesnt get heavy armor proficiency as abonus feat by raw, but paladin works.
EDIT: If you're a tactician, I could really see taking a dip level in ranger or barbarian for various bonuses as well as armor and shield proficiencies to use or train away.
Hm, indeed. How amusing. :P
Too bad it doesn't say it for martial weapon proficiency. "Oh, I'm 4th level? Think I'm gonna trade Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatclub) for weapon specialization now, thanks"
Yes, armor adn shield profs are bonus feats to a fighter. If you actually look at Light Armor Proficiency, it actually says right in the feat, this is a bonus feat to x, y and z classes.
Ditto the other feats.
Me being me, I'd probably allow a swap out of those at level 0, before play starts, but that's a house rule. I don't allow any profs or similar things to be gained at any level other then 1st, either, so taking a level of barbarian doesn't get you martial weapon profs if you started out a cleric.
Weapon, shield and martial weapon profs are valuable things in my games.
==Aelryinth
Yes, armor adn shield profs are bonus feats to a fighter. If you actually look at Light Armor Proficiency, it actually says right in the feat, this is a bonus feat to x, y and z classes.
Ditto the other feats.
Me being me, I'd probably allow a swap out of those at level 0, before play starts, but that's a house rule. I don't allow any profs or similar things to be gained at any level other then 1st, either, so taking a level of barbarian doesn't get you martial weapon profs if you started out a cleric.
Weapon, shield and martial weapon profs are valuable things in my games.
==Aelryinth
What is insanely amusing is that your fighter suddenly forgets how to wear armor properly. At 4th level you swap heavy armor proficiency for some other feat, suddenly forgetting how to use heavy armor (you can't swap light armor because RAW it is a prerequisite for medium which is a prerequisite for heavy).
That actually would be pretty amusing though. Since nonproficiency applies the check penalty to your attacks, Fighters -- at least in theory -- would probably be the best class to wear armor they weren't proficient in (since with enough armor training, traits, and mithral, you could probably get a check penalty of +0 in some decent medium to heavy armors).
What a concept. It makes me laugh, really. :P
Me being me, I'd probably allow a swap out of those at level 0, before play starts, but that's a house rule.
Fighter has always been one of the best dipping classes. :P
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Actually, it's more a case of losing the conditioning then anything. No different then suddenly forgetting mastery with the bastard sword for the short sword, or any other trick. It's more a case of adjustment of fighting style.
Slogging through five years of training wearing heavy armor, going out into the real world and never putting on a suit of plate again is a pretty good reason to lose the edge you have with it.
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Yeah, you don't dip fighter or any other martial class to pick up all the goodies in my campaign. You don't get the +2 for a good save, you don't get the profs. You want a decent weapon, spend the feat. Character level 1 is an important level.
Likewise, wizards who start after level 1 don't get cantrips and any spell other then read magic. They have to acquire them by other means.
This had more teeth in 3.5 when you got 4xclass skills, and had to choose between armor/weapon profs with sucky fighter skills, or some other class with better ones.
==Aelryinth
Likewise, wizards who start after level 1 don't get cantrips and any spell other then read magic. They have to acquire them by other means.
Well assuming that you have no other house rules modifying availability, re-acquiring your spells wouldn't be a big deal (might even be convenient as to save pages in a fresh spellbook) since it's only 7.5 gp to get a cantrip and 15 gp to get a 1st level spell, in a small town.
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On a side note, another thing that bugs me about armor training is that it's pretty useless until high levels when you have pimped out stats. At 1st level, your Strength score is likely good, but not infallible, and the weight of armor and/or adventuring equipment is noteworthy, which largely robs a Fighter of their Armor Training class feature.
Here's an example. With a 16 Strength (very reasonable I think) you have a light load of 76 lbs. That's a lot, right!? No, not really. See a suit of chainmail (medium armor) weighs 40 lbs by itself. A heavy wooden shield weighs 10 lbs. Your average 1-handed weapon weighs about 5 lbs. A longbow weighs 3 lbs. A 2 handed weapon (such as a reach weapon) weighs around 10 lbs. So before we even get into our adventuring kit, we're talking 68 lbs. just in weapons and armor (and isn't even comprehensive because the smart fighters also want backup weapons, weapons that deal different types of damage, and possibly armor to wear when resting in case of ambushes).
On top of the above, rope weighs 10 lbs. for 50 ft. I'm not even counting your clothing (the traveler's outfit you begin play with weighs 5 lbs.). Every 50 coins you have weighs a pound as well, and this is before you get any loot!
So what happens if you get into your Medium Load, for any reason? Maximum Dexterity +3, check penalty -3, and speed 20 ft. Doesn't stack with armor (you use the worst). So even if your armor training says you can move around at full speed in your medium or heavy armor, odds are you're still not moving around at high speeds until your Strength is exceptionally grand to carry all your gear (an 18 Strength gives you 100 lbs. of light load but it's still easy to go over that even at low levels).
Ant haul is a recent spell addition that helps, but as with so many spells it is merely a temporary bandaid on an already infected wound.
I think 16 str is low for a non-archer fighter (unless going for weapon expertise). I think 18 strength is more fair to count on, if it isn't a dex-heavy fighter (in which case heavy armor won't do much good anyway) so 100 lbs budget. And you generally get breastplate ASAP as it's just a lot better and 10 lbs lighter - even at 3rd level those 50 gp are nothing.
So: Breastplate 30 lbs, shield 10 lbs, 5 lbs one-handed weapon, 10 lbs two-handed weapon, 4lbs longbow with arrows. So 59 before extra equipment - so you have 41 if you're strength 18 and 17 lbs if you're strength 16. Using a masterwork backpack, which is cheap, increases that to 57/26 lbs.
And having 4 weapons there, covering all damage types as long as anything is slashing, I think it's fair to say no further backup weapons are really necessary. I would have a dagger though, they're just so generally awesome weapons, and don't weigh much. And a net. I really like nets. And a few alchemical items, caltrops etc etc.
I could see the 26 lbs for a low-strength fighter feeling like a hindrance, though not a huge one really. Filling out 57 lbs and yearning for more? Not really, I can live with that. I could probably even carry some of the wizard's stuff. And if I've got something really heavy, like a few tents, mules are dirt cheap.
Silk rope weighs 5 lbs for 50 feet, but then again, you don't usually fight with your backpack on - dropping an item is a free action so even if you are encumbered by the backpack, as soon as you get to act, drop your backpack to the ground!
EDIT: When you start getting rich and have a lot of gold coins I agree that that can weigh you down heavily. I generally invest most in gems, keeping only like a pound of pocket change. If you're not near a village, it's harder.
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