A fighter and his bonus feats: What's so bad about them?


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Silver Crusade

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While in another thread I came across a few posts talking about the fighter's bonus feats and how it's sucks as a class feature because everyone get's feats but I see it's not true because while everyone does get feats, the fighter gets the most therefore he is able to posses multiple feat trees that other classes just cannot take.

Why do some people feel like this isn't a good enough class feature for the class?

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Maybe it's not so much "bad" as it is "boring"?

Sort of like how clerics get all their goodies at odd-numbered levels and jack squat on even-numbered levels.

Silver Crusade

Jiggy wrote:

Maybe it's not so much "bad" as it is "boring"?

Sort of like how clerics get all their goodies at odd-numbered levels and jack squat on even-numbered levels.

So you prefer to get abilities at every level?


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I like fighters, for NPCs and PCs. They have a lot of versatility, thanks to their bonus feats.

As for boring, that hasn't been my experience.


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They're boring if you don't actually play the game and just read the class feature list and then argue about it online. Feats don't look very cool on paper in a vacuum because, man, they're just feats, they're not nearly as flashy as that favored terrain stuff. But when you actually play with them, the things you use them for are definitely not boring.

There are a lot of fun things you can do with a fighter that really can't be done with anyone else because they just plain don't have the feats available to make it work. There's a thread up right now about whip-fighters that demonstrates that quite nicely - whips are ridiculously feat-hungry and aren't covered by the ranger's combat styles, so good luck luck using them effectively with other classes.

It would help if combat maneuvers still worked at higher levels, though.


I think the bonus feats are bad from a design stand point simply because the fact that they have so many feats means that the number of feats in a given chain has to increase to limit fighters from getting too much and thus impacts other classes ability to get something like Roberta just pointed out.

As a player though I love bonus feats they're always a good pick hell I wish that Rogues could just pick bonus feats instead of being stuck with talents(although that is a failing with the talents since both Barbarian rage powers and Oracle revelations work similarly and are often worth as much if not more than a feat from my pov)


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I play in two games. One starts our characters at level 1 and uses medium progression. The other starts at level 4 and uses medium progression.

I have never had a character above level 7 in either of these games.

As a level 4 human fighter, I have six feats to choose from. That's three more than virtually any other build can get at that level.

In other words, I can try out feat progressions that I won't ever see otherwise.

It think that's pretty cool.


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The problem is the, IMHO, most feats are either not very good, hardly accessible or simply boring...

Improved/Greater Trip: is a cool feat, but it has stupid prerequisites (Combat Expertise and Int 13) and is useless against big opponentes. Did it really need to be broken up in two?
Weapon Focus/Specialization and Toughness are decent feats, but also boring as f#@*.
Whirlwind Attack is an awesome feat, but it has Combat Expertise and as Dodge pre-requisites... And you know what they are? Not very good. And boring.

You get 11 extra feats, but if one half of those is spent of prerequisites and another half is spent on boring feats, it feels like all I got is 11 empty levels.

You know what feats I take when I make Fighters? Things like Cornugon Smash, Improved/Greater Sunder, Rapid Shot, Lunge, Staggering Critical and, if I can afford Cha 14, Eldritch Heritage.

Because these feats are good, easily accessible (or at least don't require useless feats) and cool (i.e.: they give me something new, not just a numerical bonus!)

I'm okay with needing a few "+X bonus" feats, but I hate the fact that Fighter need them just to stay on par with a Barbarian. I hate the fact that I get nothing but numbers. Don't get me wrong, I like numbers, but you know what I like more? Variety!

The one and only real advantage a Fighter has over other martials is that they can be good at melee and ranged combat. (and Rangers can do that just as well and still have lots of other goodies!)
Which is a nice advantage, I must say, but if all those 21 feats are spent with numbers, what is the difference between a high level fighter and a commoner with incredibly high Str/Dex scores?

Also, combat feats are only useful in combat. What do I do when I can beat things with my pinty stick?


^The difference between that high level Fighter and the "commoner" with incredibly high physical stats is whatever deity level magic that "commoner" is using to increase his stats to where he can do the same amount of damage with his hoe that the tricked out, Feat Tree cherry picking, magic gear having Fighter can.


Rynjin wrote:
^The difference between that high level Fighter and the "commoner" with incredibly high physical stats is whatever deity level magic that "commoner" is using to increase his stats to where he can do the same amount of damage with his hoe that the tricked out, Feat Tree cherry picking, magic gear having Fighter can.

Eh I wouldn't call it cherry picking I mean the fighter has to take the bad feats with the good ones like 50% of the time because pretty much all of the feats he wants have pre reqs which he doesn't really want or need case in point mobility for every feat requiring mobility ever ... god I hate mobility.

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Um, Toughness and Whirlwind Attack are kind of crappy, IMO. OTOH, I'm excited about Weapon Focus every time I hit the target AC on the nose, and I'm excited about Weapon Specialization every time I hit.

But this thread isn't really about specific feats, it's about bonus feats as a class feature. I'm a big fan of bonus feats. There's no other class feature except spells known that is so customizable. Customization is muy bueno.

Fighters are like a blank slate. IMO the most interesting thing about playing a fighter is building that fighter--coming up with that awesome combo of feats and gear that just makes you own face.


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Rynjin wrote:
^The difference between that high level Fighter and the "commoner" with incredibly high physical stats is whatever deity level magic that "commoner" is using to increase his stats to where he can do the same amount of damage with his hoe that the tricked out, Feat Tree cherry picking, magic gear having Fighter can.

So... Numbers?

I think you missed my point.

A 30th level commoner whose all attribute scores are 50 still can't:

- fly
- detect evil
- cast spells
- wildshape
- become invisible
- have an animal companion
- channel energy
- rage
- disarm magic traps

But he can do anything a fighter can do.

Because all fighters get are numbers. And feats that increase said numbers.

Charlie Bell wrote:
Um, Toughness and Whirlwind Attack are kind of crappy, IMO.

Toughness is pretty good for arcane casters (although I never pick it because it's boring) and Whirlwind attack can be very strong with a reach weapon and armor spikes. (although, honestly, I don't really like it that much, but most people say it's pretty good)


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I'm working through my first PF fighter, and started logically enough: I listed the 67 feats I wanted, then started paring down the list, figuring I'd get down to 25-30 without any trouble.

Unfortunately, I was still in the low 40's when I started realizing that I couldn't 'triple-track' my fighter (two-handed, two-weapon, and ranged). To get down to the 21 feats I'll ever get, I found out that I had to plan my entire progression as a "one-track mind" fighter: I'm going to be really, really, REALLY good with a 2-handed sword, but that's all I'm ever going to do.

And I think that's the complaint people have about fighters. I'm easily hitting better than anyone else, and dealing out stupendous amounts of damage, but my level-ups take me all of 5 minutes as I roll HP, pick a handful of skills, and add my next feat.

It's 'boring' because once I've chosen my path, there's really nothing to do. It's 'fun', because there are so many different paths to choose from.

My big complaint is that if I want to get all the cool higher-level feats, I have to focus on the lower-level feats, so I don't get to choose any 'just for the roleplaying juiciness of it' feats unless I want to endanger my party. So it's frustrating to be the fighter because everyone expects you to be the DPR machine, and even though you get a feat every level, you're pouring them all into a one-track specialization that makes it much harder to play an eccentric character.

Play a bard some time and then play a fighter. You'll see exactly what I mean. A bard gets only half as many feats, but it REALLY doesn't matter what the bard chooses; he or she is there to sit in the back and buff the party, so the feats are 'roleplaying gravy' instead of, 'I have to have these to do my job.'

EDIT: There's the rub: If a wizard were to choose Skill Focus (Dance) as a feat between available metamagic feats, no one would bat an eye. If a fighter 'wasted' a feat on Skill Focus (Dance), the whole table would be up in arms. So the bonus feats are more like handcuffs than bonuses.


Lemmy wrote:


So... Numbers?

I think you missed my point.

A 30th level commoner whose all attribute scores are 50 still can't:

- fly
- detect evil
- cast spells
- wildshape
- become invisible
- have an animal companion
- channel energy
- rage
- disarm magic traps

But he can do anything a fighter can do.

Because all fighters get are numbers. And feats that increase said numbers.

Yes, NUMBERS. The 30th level Fighter with 50 in every Attribute score is still going to have better NUMBERS than the theoretical commoner.

What's wrong with numbers?

A Barbarian is all about NUMBERS. Those numbers usually being how much HP he's got and the NUMBERS of times he can rage per day that allows him to raise his OTHER NUMBERS even higher. Martial classes are all about f$~!ing NUMBERS. That's the point of them!

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I like that fighter bonus feats allow you to do cool stuff much, much faster than other classes. Like my level 2 fight who is already using Thunder and Fang to Two-Weapon fight while maintaining his shield bonus. Those are just numbers but they're b%&+~in numbers that no other party member can emulate at this point. And by the time someone else can, I'll have already moved on to the next thing, either improving my ranged capabilities to switch hit or gaining a whole extra level of combat capability. Sure, you'll never throw fireballs or fly unaided, but the guys who do get to do that stuff are going to have a hard getting there without you. At which point it's their turn to return the favor by tossing their beef-cake buddy a few fly and haste buffs so he can keep smashing face. That's how it's supposed to work, and I've never had any particular problem with it. I like fighters just as much as wizards, clerics, bards, paladins, or monks. Maybe slightly less than (small size) cavaliers depending on the campaign, but that's neither here nor there.


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Rynjin wrote:
Yes, NUMBERS. The 30th level Fighter with 50 in every Attribute score is still going to have better NUMBERS than the theoretical commoner.

You do realize that a 30th level commoner is supposed to be equivallent to a 15th level character, right? NPC Class levels count as 1/2 level for CR.

Let's put it in a different way... What's the difference between a 12th level Warrior (CR 5) and 6th level fighter (also CR 5). One feat? Slightly more damage with one weapon group?

Rynjin wrote:
What's wrong with numbers?

Nothing. Like I said, I like numbers. But they are boring. Especially when they are not than your friend's numbers unless you spend half your "class features" on them. And even so, the difference is not that big.

4th-level Fighter: "COOL I CAN DEAL 30 DAMAGE PER ROUND!"
4th-level Ranger:"Well, I can only deal 24 damage... But I also have a badass wolf, spells, lots of skills, better saves, evasion and amazing stealth options..."
What if the enemy only has 24 HP? Or 31?
Also, note that these numbers are just a random example, not a precise calculation of average DPR, so please, don't botter asking me for builds or whatever...

Rynjin wrote:
A Barbarian is all about NUMBERS. Those numbers usually being how much HP he's got and the NUMBERS of times he can rage per day that allows him to raise his OTHER NUMBERS even higher. Martial classes are all about f#*$ing NUMBERS. That's the point of them!

Are you sure Barbariasn are all about numbers? Tell me. Can a Fighter Pounce? Or Sunder spells? Or eat magic? Or grow wings? Or even move faster than normal? Can a fighter get new senses like low-light vision and scent?

No? That's what I thought...

If you think having somewhat higher DPR and AC is good enough... well... lucky you. By all means: Have a blast!

But shallowsoul asked why people feel extra feats are not good enough to be the main feature of a class, so I shared my thoughts.

Fighters are, however, a lot of fun to build, I'll give them that... Playing, OTOH...


It's kind of an anecdotal observation, but how many adventures or adventure paths have you ever seen where the BBEG or his most powerful minions were single classed Fighters or any melee type guy?

Forgotten Realms used to drive me crazy because most of the high level NPC's were usually casters.

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sunbeam wrote:

It's kind of an anecdotal observation, but how many adventures or adventure paths have you ever seen where the BBEG or his most powerful minions were single classed Fighters or any melee type guy?

Forgotten Realms used to drive me crazy because most of the high level NPC's were usually casters.

That's a fairly accurate observation... Of course, there's hardly an NPC in Forgotten Realms that isn't multi-classed 4 ways from Sunday, but even in more recent APs, the only bad guys with straight fighter progression have racial spell-like abilities. At least after a certain level. I think Skulls and Shackles has the largest number of non-caster BBEG's I've seen to date, but even that trails off pretty quick as you move past the mid-point of the campaign.

Silver Crusade

Lemmy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
^The difference between that high level Fighter and the "commoner" with incredibly high physical stats is whatever deity level magic that "commoner" is using to increase his stats to where he can do the same amount of damage with his hoe that the tricked out, Feat Tree cherry picking, magic gear having Fighter can.

So... Numbers?

I think you missed my point.

A 30th level commoner whose all attribute scores are 50 still can't:

- fly
- detect evil
- cast spells
- wildshape
- become invisible
- have an animal companion
- channel energy
- rage
- disarm magic traps

But he can do anything a fighter can do.

Because all fighters get are numbers. And feats that increase said numbers.

And your point is?

Can a commoner take all those Fighter only feats?
Can a commoner gain Weapon Training?
Can a commoner gain Armor Training?
Can a commoner gain Damage Reduction?
Can a commoner increase his crit multiplier?
Can a commoner auto confirm crits?
Does a commoner have full BAB?
etc.....

And no, magic items don't count because technically a commoner could max out UMD and cast spells.


A Barbarian is mostly about numbers, yes. How much damage he can take/deal and how much Rage he can use. The rest is just gravy, and some of that stuff (like better senses) can just as easily be gotten by using a race that has them.

sunbeam wrote:

It's kind of an anecdotal observation, but how many adventures or adventure paths have you ever seen where the BBEG or his most powerful minions were single classed Fighters or any melee type guy?

Forgotten Realms used to drive me crazy because most of the high level NPC's were usually casters.

It's most likely because if your BBEG is a Fighter, he can just be ganged up on and pounded into paste. It doesn't matter what level he is, if it's anywhere close to the party's level that 4/5/6/7 people vs him = He loses. Whereas a spellcaster has things that can keep him out of direct reach of the party so they have to work hard to get close to him before they can gang up and beat on him.


Lemmy wrote:


You do realize that a 30th level commoner is supposed to be equivallent to a 15th level character, right? NPC Class levels count as 1/2 level for CR.
Let's put it in a different way... What's the difference between a 12th level Warrior (CR 5) and 6th level fighter (also CR 5). One feat? Slightly more damage with one weapon group?

Determining the CR of a character with PC Class levels = CR -1.

Determining the CR of a character with NPC Class levels = CR -2.

There is no "1/2 level for CR" anywhere.

I'm just saying...

Silver Crusade

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sunbeam wrote:

It's kind of an anecdotal observation, but how many adventures or adventure paths have you ever seen where the BBEG or his most powerful minions were single classed Fighters or any melee type guy?

Forgotten Realms used to drive me crazy because most of the high level NPC's were usually casters.

The Highblade of Mulmaster was a 20th level Fighter.

Zaknafein was a 24th level Fighter.

The Chosen of Myrkul, can't remember his name, is a 20th level Fighter.

Three off the top of my head.


Roberta Yang wrote:

There are a lot of fun things you can do with a fighter that really can't be done with anyone else because they just plain don't have the feats available to make it work. There's a thread up right now about whip-fighters that demonstrates that quite nicely - whips are ridiculously feat-hungry and aren't covered by the ranger's combat styles, so good luck luck using them effectively with other classes.

It would help if combat maneuvers still worked at higher levels, though.

Maybe they should make whip feats less hungry (do more). Then you wouldn't need to have more feats to use them.

Indiana Jones doesn't seem like a Fighter or high level but he has the feats.


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This thread makes me a sad panda.

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shallowsoul wrote:
sunbeam wrote:

It's kind of an anecdotal observation, but how many adventures or adventure paths have you ever seen where the BBEG or his most powerful minions were single classed Fighters or any melee type guy?

Forgotten Realms used to drive me crazy because most of the high level NPC's were usually casters.

The Highblade of Mulmaster was a 20th level Fighter.

Zaknafein was a 24th level Fighter.

The Chosen of Myrkul, can't remember his name, is a 20th level Fighter.

Three off the top of my head.

Did they actually do a write-up of Zaknafein? I didn't think they had...


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Have any of you read my 1st post?

I said I like numbers. But I feel they shouldn't be everything a class gets.
Barbarians, who are stereotypically presented as the most straight-foward martial class have more skill ranks and unique stuff to do in combat than Fighters, who are supposedly masters of tatical combat and battle strategy.
Being mainly about numbers is not a problem. Being just numbers is.

Don't misunderstand me, I like Fighters. I like the concept behind the class. But unless Paizo publishes more feats like the ones I listed before, Fighters will be just Warriors (the NPC class) with bigger numbers.

Can Fighters have creative and viable builds? Sure! Bob_Loblaw proved that time and time again. (I love the Halfling Fighter build he made!), but look how much a Fighter has to invest to do it, compared to other classes. The system rewards cookie-cutter Fighters who focus on numerical bonuses much more than it rewards tatical Fighters who focus on maneuvers and what-not.

It's cool to deal more damage than everyone, but it comes to the expense of doing any other thing at all (even in combat), then I feel the class is flawed.

And answering to shallowsoul. Yeas, a commoner with high-enough attributes can pretty much do all of that. Except getting DR and picking fighter-only feats (which are usually numerical bonuses... so it doesn't really matter)

Silver Crusade

Ssalarn wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
sunbeam wrote:

It's kind of an anecdotal observation, but how many adventures or adventure paths have you ever seen where the BBEG or his most powerful minions were single classed Fighters or any melee type guy?

Forgotten Realms used to drive me crazy because most of the high level NPC's were usually casters.

The Highblade of Mulmaster was a 20th level Fighter.

Zaknafein was a 24th level Fighter.

The Chosen of Myrkul, can't remember his name, is a 20th level Fighter.

Three off the top of my head.

Did they actually do a write-up of Zaknafein? I didn't think they had...

Back in 2nd edition the Menzoberranzan boxset had him at 24th level.


I don't think feats are as good as class features tend to be.

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You can also retrain fighter bonus feats (which you largely can't do with anyoone else), allowing you to adjust your fighters focus as you level, which can be a great customizable tool for certain builds, and a tool that gets overlooked quite a bit. I had an elven Duelist who started life as an archer until he'd picked up enough levels and abilities to transition into a full blown melee character.


shallowsoul wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

Maybe it's not so much "bad" as it is "boring"?

Sort of like how clerics get all their goodies at odd-numbered levels and jack squat on even-numbered levels.

So you prefer to get abilities at every level?

This is one of the things I really like about Alchemists. Discoveries come at even levels and feats at odd. Not enough discoveries? Take Extra Discovery. Not enough feats? Wrong class.

Silver Crusade

joeyfixit wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

Maybe it's not so much "bad" as it is "boring"?

Sort of like how clerics get all their goodies at odd-numbered levels and jack squat on even-numbered levels.

So you prefer to get abilities at every level?
This is one of the things I really like about Alchemists. Discoveries come at even levels and feats at odd. Not enough discoveries? Take Extra Discovery. Not enough feats? Wrong class.

Barbarian rage powers and rogue talents work the same way. And basically, so do fighters with their special abilities. It's just that for fighters, that just means bonus feats.


Weren Wu Jen wrote:

Determining the CR of a character with PC Class levels = CR -1.

Determining the CR of a character with NPC Class levels = CR -2.

There is no "1/2 level for CR" anywhere.

I'm just saying...

There is, its just only for monsters with class levels, not normal NPCs.

Quote:
Table: Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.

So an ogre (CR 3) could add 6 levels of rogue (or adept, or commoner), and it only increases its CR by +3.


Jeraa wrote:


Quote:
Table: Monsters with Class Levels gives general guidelines regarding which core classes add directly to a monster's abilities based on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add 1 to a creature's CR for each level added. Classes marked with a “—” increase a creature's CR by 1 for every 2 class levels added until the number of levels added are equal to (or exceed) the creature's original CR, at which point they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature's CR for each level added). Creatures that fall into multiple roles treat a class as key if either of its roles treat the class as key. Note that levels in NPC classes are never considered key.
So an ogre (CR 3) could add 6 levels of rogue (or adept, or commoner), and it only increases its CR by +3.

You may notice that all the non-Key classes besides Paladin only have 1/2-3/4 BaB.

Ending up as a 3 or a 4 BaB bonus at level 6. Connection? I believe so.


Weren Wu Jen wrote:
Lemmy wrote:


You do realize that a 30th level commoner is supposed to be equivallent to a 15th level character, right? NPC Class levels count as 1/2 level for CR.
Let's put it in a different way... What's the difference between a 12th level Warrior (CR 5) and 6th level fighter (also CR 5). One feat? Slightly more damage with one weapon group?

Determining the CR of a character with PC Class levels = CR -1.

Determining the CR of a character with NPC Class levels = CR -2.

There is no "1/2 level for CR" anywhere.

I'm just saying...

I stand corrected.

I guess I was confused due to how adding class level to monsters work, and possibly some 3.5 rule and/or old houserule from my former gaming group.

But that doesn't change my point about bonus feats, numerical bonuses and class features.
Get a +X or +Y once in a while is cool... Getting that nearly every level is boring and restraining.


Rynjin wrote:

You may notice that all the non-Key classes besides Paladin only have 1/2-3/4 BaB.

Ending up as a 3 or a 4 BaB bonus at level 6. Connection? I believe so.

Only for Combat or Skill monsters. For Spellcasting monsters, Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers are all non-key, and they have full BAB. In addition, warrior levels are always non-Key, as its an NPC class.

Adding 14 levels of fighter to a Nymph only adds +7 CR, but adds 14 to its BAB, for a total CR of 14 and a base attack bonus of +18.


Jeraa wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

You may notice that all the non-Key classes besides Paladin only have 1/2-3/4 BaB.

Ending up as a 3 or a 4 BaB bonus at level 6. Connection? I believe so.

Only for Combat or Skill monsters. For Spellcasting monsters, Barbarians, Fighters, and Rangers are all non-key, and they have full BAB.

Adding 14 levels of fighter to a Nymph only adds +7 CR, but adds 14 to its BAB, for a total CR of 14 and a base attack bonus of +18.

Well, yeah. Adding overall useless levels will not raise your CR by much.


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Lemmy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
^The difference between that high level Fighter and the "commoner" with incredibly high physical stats is whatever deity level magic that "commoner" is using to increase his stats to where he can do the same amount of damage with his hoe that the tricked out, Feat Tree cherry picking, magic gear having Fighter can.

So... Numbers?

I think you missed my point.

A 30th level commoner whose all attribute scores are 50 still can't:

- fly
- detect evil
- cast spells
- wildshape
- become invisible
- have an animal companion
- channel energy
- rage
- disarm magic traps

But he can do anything a fighter can do.

Because all fighters get are numbers. And feats that increase said numbers.

Charlie Bell wrote:
Um, Toughness and Whirlwind Attack are kind of crappy, IMO.
Toughness is pretty good for arcane casters (although I never pick it because it's boring) and Whirlwind attack can be very strong with a reach weapon and armor spikes. (although, honestly, I don't really like it that much, but most people say it's pretty good)

If he(the commoner) can't do to standard then it does not really count. I mean I can lift weights, and so can an Olympic level competitor, but I am sure we are not really comparable.


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Lemmy wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Yes, NUMBERS. The 30th level Fighter with 50 in every Attribute score is still going to have better NUMBERS than the theoretical commoner.

You do realize that a 30th level commoner is supposed to be equivallent to a 15th level character, right? NPC Class levels count as 1/2 level for CR.

Let's put it in a different way... What's the difference between a 12th level Warrior (CR 5) and 6th level fighter (also CR 5). One feat? Slightly more damage with one weapon group?

NPC classes are CR-2 not 1/2, not that the commoner arugment is valid since you changed classes, and commoners and warriors are not equal in actual game play despite having the same CR.

Silver Crusade

I think one of the issues with fighter feats is that you get one at level one and every even level. Just like in 3.5. Except that now everyone gets a feat every other level and not every 3. Maybe something where a figter gets feats that ignore prereqs from a list every 3 levels or something.

Silver Crusade

I think fighters would be more interesting if more feats were "Fighter Restricted" like Weapon Specialization. That way it's not just "Oh fighters get more feats" but "Oh, fights get elite feats that other classes can't have"

Grand Lodge

Like Disruptive and Spellbreaker?

Silver Crusade

^Basically, yeah.

I think there's like 10 or so feats in the core rulebook that are Fighter only feats. I would double that.

Sczarni

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I think the real problem is that most feats make the fighter better at what he does, instead of making him capable of doing things he couldn't do before. This gets back to the "numbers" argument-- the fighter may swing that sword harder than anyone, but his options on any given round are still just "swing sword at enemy", whereas a caster has a whole list of different things he could do.

I think what'd really help is if there were more feats that give you a new option in combat-- something you couldn't do without the feat. Unfortunately, anyone remember the uproar surrounding Strike Back? A lot of people had houseruled that you could already do that, but Strike Back codifying it into a feat meant that you couldn't do it anymore without the feat.

I also agree with Elamdri's idea. Barbarians' rage powers and alchemists' discoveries seem more exciting because only they get them, but everyone gets feats. "Fighter only" feats help make a fighter feel like he's not just a really strong commoner; like his class really counts for something.

Silver Crusade

Basically. I mean, people's opinions of fighters would change dramatically if say for example Combat Reflexes or Rapid Shot has a prerequisite of fighter levels.

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In FR, there's a fair amount of level 20 Fighters...certainly more then the level 20 clerics and rogues.

To the 1E list presented, I'll add the Chosen of Gilgamesh, who was level 22? There's a level 23 gladiator from Thay hanging around as part of an evil adventuring team (same one with the guy with the Staff of the Necromancer (evil Staff/Magi)). two of the paladins in among the lords of waterdeep were p/20. King Azoun was a f/20.

The highest level Fighter in FR was a fellow in the Bloodstone lands, a fighter/30 who would be a barbarian in 3.5.

But the instant you start comparing numbers of high level fighters to high level mages, it pales. Just read Ed Greenwood's novels...fighters are a by-play to the actions of wizards in his worlds, and clerics are almost an afterthought, with rogues mainly there for entertainment factor and silly over-the-top plotting and planning which falls apart too easily. I think the highest level cleric I ever read about was that AMbassador of (what was the name of that country devoted to Gond?) who was a cleric/23 of Gond specializing in human interaction systems. Other then that, you just don't hear about clerics.

And the highest level character in the game, period? Good ol' Shoon, necromancer 40 former demi-lich in the body of a pert elf girl. I forget what level Szass Tam is, necro/30 lich? He had a level on Larloch the Warlock King, but Larloch had so many bloody upgrades to himself.

And lest we not forget, in the Netheril book there's one Fighter NPC at level 20 featured, and Karstil? was also 40th level or something. You couldn't walk ten feet in Netheril without tripping over an archmage. You were not even considered a serious spellcaster unless you could cast 10th level spells.

==Aelryinth


I think the opposite. I think fighters are one of the most interesting classes because they're equally capable of any style of combat via total customization through bonus feats.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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As to the OP's point:

1) Fighters are 'locked'.
Feats are not swappable and multi-purpose. The only other class which is as totally locked into what it can do is the Rogue, and to a lesser extent the barbarian. But the Rogue's sheer variety of skills and skill points mitigate this by giving them out of combat flexibility, and the barbarian gets such a broad array of rage powers and talents to pick from, it completely mitigates this.

thus, fighters tend to be simple, unalterable, and less flexible then every other class.

2) Feats are, generally speaking, the lowest powered of all class abilities.
Consider that weapon training gives +1/+1 to ALL weapons in a group. That is better then Weapon Focus, almost equal to +Weapon Spec, AND it applies to multiple weapons, not just one. It also grants, in the end, +10 of bonuses across 4 weapons. To duplicate the effect for 4 different weapons, you'd need ten feats...for four class abilities!

Armor training gives faster movement and a scaling potential increase to AC that doesn't top at +1.

Bravery is rightly derided as weak because the bonus is so specific, and is totally overwhelmed by the Paladin's immunity to fear and Aura of Courage, both of which he gets at the same time a fighter gets...+1.

3) As an outgrowth to this, because feats are under-powered for the fighter, you have to spend multiple ones to accomplish anything. This lowers the value of getting multiple feats, because you keep having to spend your feats on, well, irrelevant stuff that should have scaled.

4) there is next to no fighter exclusivity. those feats that are fighter exclusive tend to be underpowered/over-priced.
And many people rightly feel that making fighter-exclusive feats is a cop-out, as anyone should be able to grab any feat.

5) The fighter has to put up with ability score reqs on his CLASS ABILITIES. And feat pre-reqs! Every other class that gets fightery bonus feats gets to IGNORE THEM! Some feat master the fighter is.

6) Easy duplication. Many feats are just number variants, and numbers can be duplicated by many means, not the least of which is simple size or Str increases.
On the other hand, feats which grant versions of other class abilities tend to grant lesser or underpowered versions of them.
Except, you know, for the fighters, who have them as class abilities.

7) Fighters can't borrow.
Uncanny Dodge. Evasion. Both trees should be fightery feats. C'mon, they are key combat tactical skills.
Feats? nope.
The fighter finds it very difficult to borrow from other classes with feats. They, in turn, can do most of what he can do without nearly as much problem, and a whole lot that he cannot.

8) Underwhelmingness.
The fact a fighter can get +6/+8 with one weapon after investing 4 feats and his weapon training has to compare with the barbarian that gets +4/+6 with any 2h weapon he can pick up...he's not locked into one weapon. A Ranger can allocate +10/+10 to a key opponent on demand.

9) the defenses provided by feats SUCK compared to those provided by other class abilities.

10) too many abilities that should be available as feats are relegated to archetype abilities that cut them off from the broader field of fighters. C'mon, Pounce should be on there. Come and Get me. Better spell/magic defenses. Shield Ward. Faster Movement. etc etc.

11) You can't swap out your feats and change your configuration every day, giving your character a completely new look and possibility. Any character that can cast spells can accomplish a level of this, with true spellcasters doing it best.

==+Aelryinth


Maybe Weapon Training should have a little extra oomph added to it.

Access to other Feat-esque class features that are automatically granted at certain levels that lets the Fighter do all kinds of cool flashy combat moves.

Maybe a Supermegaultra Bull Rush type of thing that lets him stick his sword in a guy and then kick him off of it for a 5/10/Whatever foot push, and extra damage/bleed damage/ability damage.

Things like that would probably cure people's complaints of "Fighter is boring all he gets are Feats".

That one thread about the Intuitive Fighter or whatever it was called had a good idea too. Give the Fighter a pool of Bonus Feats he can train in every day.

Maybe one day the Fighter wants to limber up and train his TWF skills, or bring out his Pro-Wrestler fantasy, or whatever.

Grand Lodge

The thing about the fighter's feats is one thing: DIVERSE WARFARE those feats mean he can embrace multiple combat styles.

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