A fighter and his bonus feats: What's so bad about them?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Nicos wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Here's the hilarious account of elicia Stormraven taking down Mettarak the Dragon Prince:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-20/elicia-stormraven

I'm going to have to look up the Oath paladin now and see what they get. Sigh.

==Aelryinth

It seems like elicia had good luck with her dice. I wonder if a fighter could kill that dragon in one turn.

A 20th level two-handed fighter with a scythe, full specialization, and their auto-crit attack ability could do it IF they were wielding a modified sun-blade to instead be a scythe, which was enhanced with the collision enhancement (psionics), I think. I'd need to do the math, but it might fall short actually (and has big troubles vs static evasion %, but blind-fight might alleviate that).

*crunches some numbers* Yes, he could one-round the dragon if he hit, assuming Power Attack, 2 handed weapon, a +5 collision sun scythe (custom item), 30 Strength (fair optimization), full specialization, full-weapon training, x5 critical multiplier, and auto-crit on a standard action.

Oops, wait. Doubling = tripling so the custom sun-scythe only makes it x6, so one sec while I recalculate something. Nope. Won't do it. It can't kill Metterak. :\

But I wouldn't expect it to honestly. I don't expect the Fighter to one-shot things like this. I don't expect Rangers or Paladins to either (even though they would have a much better chance of doing so honestly, because of Instant Enemy + Quarry / Smite Evil).

Well against a 20 level THF the dragon have to make two aves against DC 34 or be stunned.

Honestly, I was only checked the THF because I was curious if there was a way to get your 1-round damage that high. I know THF crit-speccing is really powerful at high levels, but it won't be enough I don't think. It was a thought exercise, not a suggestion for a build or even a viable character (it requires excessive specialization in an uncommon weapon that you'll need crafted for you and doesn't even become semi-viable until 15th level and doesn't actually come into its own until 20th level when you auto-confirm crits).

Frankly this Dragon is a cheating dragon filled with silly powerful abilities, but is also a fail dragon because it is made of fail and should feel bad. A CR 24 dragon with only a +25 fortitude? For shame dragon, for shame. That dragon is just asking to be a lawn ornament with saving throws like that! >:(

Of course, I gotta say the Paladin's not particularly impressive either. 20th level and only an 18 Strength? Really? Really!?


A friend of mine and I were speaking about this, and I think the dragon deserved what he got personally. Yes, it's a testament to a Paladin's smite-y-ness, but honestly this dragon is just made of so much fail it's astounding. I'm gonna elaborate in a bit, but I'm just chiming in right quick to say that I expect more from dragons (and Paladins) than this. :P


Firstly, Metterak is made of fail. He's a CR 24 (lawlz, that's a laugh) dragon with a 39 AC and a 0 touch AC. His saving throws are pathetic for a creature of this scale of power (+25 on his best save). His spell selection is odd to say the least (especially given the fact he gets to cheat and ignore spell components for his spells!). He has no treasure entry at all, and no self-respecting dragon at this level would be absent his gratuitous amounts of magic bling. I just don't know what to say. This dragon...it is so much fail. So...much...fail.

Wanna know how to kill this "almost god dragon"? Gate. That'll do it. Gate in a Solar. This dragon cannot handle the power that is a Solar. A solar will assuredly kill it. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say a Pit Fiend will curbstomp this dragon. A pit fiend man. A CR 20 Pit Fiend.


Ashiel wrote:
A friend of mine and I were speaking about this, and I think the dragon deserved what he got personally. Yes, it's a testament to a Paladin's smite-y-ness, but honestly this dragon is just made of so much fail it's astounding. I'm gonna elaborate in a bit, but I'm just chiming in right quick to say that I expect more from dragons (and Paladins) than this. :P

both the dragon and the paladin are made of fail. they both have to cheat to even keep up, and even then, they suck horribly.

come on, a 20th level paladin with only 18 strength? after a g$~#*~n magic item?

come on, a CR24 dragon with a fortitude save of only +25 and will save of only +24. the only thing protecting it from a witch's slumber hex is the fact it's a g*@%#~n dragon.


Ashiel wrote:

Firstly, Metterak is made of fail. He's a CR 24 (lawlz, that's a laugh) dragon with a 39 AC and a 0 touch AC. His saving throws are pathetic for a creature of this scale of power (+25 on his best save). His spell selection is odd to say the least (especially given the fact he gets to cheat and ignore spell components for his spells!). He has no treasure entry at all, and no self-respecting dragon at this level would be absent his gratuitous amounts of magic bling. I just don't know what to say. This dragon...it is so much fail. So...much...fail.

Wanna know how to kill this "almost god dragon"? Gate. That'll do it. Gate in a Solar. This dragon cannot handle the power that is a Solar. A solar will assuredly kill it. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say a Pit Fiend will curbstomp this dragon. A pit fiend man. A CR 20 Pit Fiend.

so will a Balor, a Rhakshasa Maharaja, and most Titans.


with a bit of luck the fighter could do it too

Spoiler:
Lets see a 20 level human weapon master.

Stats

14 (20)
18 (30)
12
10
12
8

Gear
+5 dragon bane second chance composite longbow, +1 thundering, corrosive burst, shocking burst, holy, axiomatic arrows (50). Boots of speed, Gloves of duelling, Bracer of archery greater (+2 att, +1 dmg), cracked pale grims ioun stone.

Attacks

+39/+39/+39/+34/+29/+24/+19

Damage

1d8+34 +8d6 crit with 19-20

Avg damage 65

If crit

5d8+ 165+10d8+4d10

Avg damage

255

two crits and the fight is over: I now it is not that is jst 10% for a crit but this fighter can reroll 5 times.


The Paladin has a freaking Holy Avenger no less! Even with such incredible magic items this Paladin is a failure. I don't even consider Holy Avengers when building Paladins because they're like a dream. At over 100k gold pieces, the dice gods must favor you hard for you to get one through any means other than some sort of GM-fiat epic questiness or you crafting it yourself over the course of a campaign. So...much fail. It's actually making me ill I think.

What's really sad is how easy this dragon is to take apart. Dazing acid arrow has this dragon's number of speed dial.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

the grayflame also improves the enhancement by +1, btw.

as for increasing damage for the fighter, would it help if he had spirited charge, pounce and charged the dragon? should up his crit modifier another level.

oh, and a paladin 20 sitting there with Aura of Justice so he can share the smite. Hee!

==Aelryinth


well, Deaf Oracles get to cheat and ignore the verbal components of their spells.

the birthmark trait negates the need to buy various divine foci because your holy symbol, is an irremovable mark upon your flesh.

humans can take a feat that allows them to cheat and use some other race's anatomical advantages without actually possessing that appendage themselves.

there are lots of ways to break universal rules in the system.

the fact that Metterak can ignore material components in this case, is cheating without expending resources. in other words, a free goodie.


Nicos wrote:

with a bit of luck the fighter could do it too

** spoiler omitted **

two crits and the fight is over: I now it is not that is jst 10% for a crit but this fighter can reroll 5 times.

Nicos, don't sweat it man. It's not impressive to drop this dragon in one round. A party of 15th level characters can steamroll this encounter without much effort. Honestly, I think you'd be better off showing how the Fighter could screw this guy up without trying to match the Paladin is damage. I mean, you're Fighter uses an illegal weapon (+11 equivalency before axiomatic arrows), and even then you might kill this junky dragon.

If you want to make the Fighter look good, I'd recommend pushing Dazing Assault (it's a really cheap feat vs single foes and stunlocks like vanilla-WoW rogues). A Fighter who dual-wields with Dazing Strike would murder this poor dragon all by himself. A Fighter at 20th level can easily sport a +40 to hit (+20 BAB, +10 Str, +6 training, +2 focus, +5 weapon = +43, -2 for dual wielding = +41). That's more than the dragon's absolutely abysmal AC. Every time you hit the dragon he'd have to make a DC 30 Fortitude save or be dazed a round. Full on dual-wield spec and you'll hit him easily 4-9 times per round, assuming no criticals. If you've debuffed him at all (such as with critical feats or your good ol' Intimidate skill). Honestly, it'd be a minor miracle if the Dragon ever got to act.

I mean, I don't put stock in such gimmicky builds (it's basically a build that revolves around royally ruining any single-foe in melee) but it at least demonstrates what you can do with relatively little equipment (just a +5 weapon which you could loot off an enemy at this level even). It doesn't count any buffs either (heroism, bardic music, etc).


Aelryinth wrote:

the grayflame also improves the enhancement by +1, btw.

as for increasing damage for the fighter, would it help if he had spirited charge, pounce and charged the dragon? should up his crit modifier another level.

oh, and a paladin 20 sitting there with Aura of Justice so he can share the smite. Hee!

==Aelryinth

My friend in a tabletop game I ran once had a Fighter/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker with web enhancement feats that granted him an animal cohort (his horse) and the ability to share his rage/frenzy with his mount (oh yeah, angry horse is angry!), and did the whole silly shock trooper + leap attack + power attack + berserking weapon + pounce = OMGWTFMURDERED!?

I remember we checked it, and his maximum possible damage could theoretically one-shot anything in the 3.5 MM except the great gold wyrm. XD

Poor guy was pretty useless outside of that trick though. :(


Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:

with a bit of luck the fighter could do it too

** spoiler omitted **

two crits and the fight is over: I now it is not that is jst 10% for a crit but this fighter can reroll 5 times.

Nicos, don't sweat it man. It's not impressive to drop this dragon in one round. A party of 15th level characters can steamroll this encounter without much effort. Honestly, I think you'd be better off showing how the Fighter could screw this guy up without trying to match the Paladin is damage. I mean, you're Fighter uses an illegal weapon (+11 equivalency before axiomatic arrows), and even then you might kill this junky dragon.

??

bane is +1, second chance is +4 I do not see anything ilegal there.


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Ashiel wrote:

My friend in a tabletop game I ran once had a Fighter/Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker with web enhancement feats that granted him an animal cohort (his horse) and the ability to share his rage/frenzy with his mount (oh yeah, angry horse is angry!), and did the whole silly shock trooper + leap attack + power attack + berserking weapon + pounce = OMGWTFMURDERED!?

I remember we checked it, and his maximum possible damage could theoretically one-shot anything in the 3.5 MM except the great gold wyrm. XD

Poor guy was pretty useless outside of that trick though. :(

It's like AM BARBARIAN's ancient ancestor.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Yeah, FB is the source of the term 'rocket tag' describing high level play.

Just get your Str high enough, buy off your TH penalty with Supreme Power Attack, get the Pounce variant, and go to town.

With a 'mere' 42 str (50 seems more common), Enlarged with a spiked Chain, you're talking 20' of reach doing 2-12 +32 (str) +80 (Sup Power Attack)+ 40 (Leap Attack) +5 (enhanced) x2 (Valorous on Charge).

So, 4-24 +314 dmg at +43/+38/+33/+28. Oh, and he has Supreme Cleave, so if something dies, he goes on to the next. If that one dies, he continues.

Note: +314 dmg is autokill for a maximum hit point fighter/20 with a 20 con. Or an average hit point barb/20 with a 28 con.

All in effectively a 25' radius. And if something dies, he can take a 5' step to get close to something else for his cleave. On every cleave.

And who knows? he might even crit.

can you say, party wipe?

==Aelryinth


Nicos wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:

with a bit of luck the fighter could do it too

** spoiler omitted **

two crits and the fight is over: I now it is not that is jst 10% for a crit but this fighter can reroll 5 times.

Nicos, don't sweat it man. It's not impressive to drop this dragon in one round. A party of 15th level characters can steamroll this encounter without much effort. Honestly, I think you'd be better off showing how the Fighter could screw this guy up without trying to match the Paladin is damage. I mean, you're Fighter uses an illegal weapon (+11 equivalency before axiomatic arrows), and even then you might kill this junky dragon.

??

bane is +1, second chance is +4 I do not see anything ilegal there.

My bad. I read it incorrectly. You were using a +6 equivalent bow, and just stupidly expensive arrows. :P

Still, I'd find a way that makes you look good, rather than being specifically designed to murder this one dragon (and not even a strong dragon at that).

Aratrok wrote:
It's like AM BARBARIAN's ancient ancestor.

From the Jurrassic period, where AM BARBARIAN was bigger, badder, and meaner than he is today. With razer sharp teeth, and lances made from mahogony from the Planet Malchior 7, where the trees are 300 ft. tall and breath fire. :P


Wish, "I wish Metterak would die of a heart attack this round."

Gate in a Solar

Fighter with the Dazing assault line

get yourself a dominated or diplomanced colossal great wyrm white dragon ally.

get AM BARBARIAN TO RAGELANCEPOUNCE IT. dead in one round from the sheer damage

Planar Bind a Shinigami and have it enervate bomb the dragon, they can inflict 2d4 negative levels thrice with SLAs and 1d6 negative levels 6 times by crushing soul gems. the shinigami would probably die very quickly, but it would inflict 1d6 permanent negative levels that can only be removed by wish, miracle, or greater restoration. every round, for up to 6 rounds. plus dragon needs a seperate spell for each negative level.

Sczarni

We're not really talking about fighter bonus feats anymore, are we?


Silent Saturn wrote:
We're not really talking about fighter bonus feats anymore, are we?

afhter 400+post is dificult to stay on topic.

Guys that think fighter are ok would still think that, guys taht think fighter is lackluster would not change their minds. It is just the way fighter thread are.


Silent Saturn wrote:
We're not really talking about fighter bonus feats anymore, are we?

In a very indirect way, yes. I'm not surprised the Paladin one-rounded that dragon. What is surprising is that the Paladin did so while being probably the most fail 20th level Paladin I've had the displeasure of beholding in quite a long, long time.

I've mostly said my peace on Fighters, and Bob has shown he's playing a different game than we are. I play a game where PCs have average HP, use standard point buy, follow the rules for obtaining items (including buying and treasure values), if enemies have treasure they can use then they will use them, and I don't pull punches or magically re-arrange the world just because the party is light on something. Frankly I think doing things like including traps ONLY if you have a character to deal with traps is bad form and encourages people to ignore trapfinding characters (when was the last time we saw a trap? Not once in 13 levels. Trapfinding is silly. Let's not worry about that. GM decides to not include traps, because no one can handle them...). Replace traps with anything.

In the game, as it is written, I think Fighters are suffering. In games where traps will be less frequent, you get nearly double base HP based on HD, and stuff is adjusted for you (such as ensuring X class has Y magic item), this may not be the case; but such is not the game I play nor is it the game described in the rulebook (and I discuss these things based on the game described in the rulebook).


shallowsoul wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Bob, giving your crew maximum hit points was definitely a form of optimization. Nearly +100 hit points for most of them! In essence, you were covering for their suboptimal choices. If you hadn't, well, 'hard-fought' most likely would have become 'TPK'.

You were a nice GM that way. But the general discussion is about GM's who don't cover for their players that way.

Were you talking about in-combat healing? out of combat healing should never have been a problem. There's zillions of easy ways to heal outside of combat.

As for the cloak of displacement vs resistance, he should have just stacked them.

==Aelryinth

And you are assuming that each PC would have rolled for half. At the end of the day we don't know what the PC's would have rolled.

Statically half. I can say there is a 1 in 1.3829781e+59 chance they would have rolled for that much health.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Really, the only thing that paladin had that was custom was dragonbane on the arrows...which isn't bad, it's a consumable you're likely to acquire when fighting a red dragon.

Being able to do that damage (granted, with a crit) just goes to show you how strong Smite is. With her TH so high from Smite, Bane, +5 bow, Greyflame+1, Dex and whatnot, she was able to land a blizzard of smiting arrows on the dragon, complete with deadly aim.

When you're talking arrows that are dealing +8 enhance, +40 Smite, +5 Str, +10 Deadly aim for +63 dmg, and ALL of them are hitting (although I wonder at the Brilliant, useless against a Dragon not wearing armor), and you pop a crit or two, well, things happen.

Especially as that was the first round, and back then, Smites were x2 on the first round.

The paladin was probably an average character who buffed Cha over Str, resulting in the 28 final charisma. that +9 to hit comes in very handy with Manyshot.

==Aelryinth


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Bob, giving your crew maximum hit points was definitely a form of optimization. Nearly +100 hit points for most of them! In essence, you were covering for their suboptimal choices. If you hadn't, well, 'hard-fought' most likely would have become 'TPK'.

You were a nice GM that way. But the general discussion is about GM's who don't cover for their players that way.

Were you talking about in-combat healing? out of combat healing should never have been a problem. There's zillions of easy ways to heal outside of combat.

As for the cloak of displacement vs resistance, he should have just stacked them.

==Aelryinth

I wasn't covering suboptimal choices. I was ensuring that they had an enjoyable experience. They don't like clerics or most divine casters. They had ways to heal out of combat but they couldn't maintain the in combat healing. When I was dealing damage, I could deal enough to take out the wizard in a single hit (as an example of the amount I was dealing). That's a lot of damage.

They didn't ask me to adjust anything. When I saw the wizard having to use his limited wishes and wishes to bring characters back from the dead, I made the decision to give them maximum hit points. This was around level 16 or so and I made it retroactive. My players never asked me for it. I was seeing a character death every two weeks or so. That's far more than I want to see in my campaigns. Everyone had their character die at least once during the campaign. One player lost his character 5 or 6 times. That's too much.

The cloak issue was not my decision. I allowed my players to craft their own custom items. If they didn't come up with it, then that was their problem. However, the saving throws weren't as much of an issue as the damage coming their way so he made the decision that he felt would be best.

Converting 3.5 Age of Wyrms to Pathfinder increased the lethality of the adventure quite a bit especially at the higher levels where there were more feats for the opponents. Some...

So, what you are saying is that the party wasn't optimized enough to succeed in pathfinder and isn't relevant to a discussion of base pathfinder characters.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

I think Bob's point is not that you can play with no optimization whatsoever, like playing a monk who spends all his feats in Skill Focus: Profession: (a different one every time).

I think his poinht is that you can get by without having to make the best possible choices everytime. And that's very true. Sure, some encounters and challenges will be harder than usual, possibly much harder than they are supposed to be, but you don't need every drop of munchkin-juice just to get by.

I try and use different tricks with my monsters/NPCs so my players learn/remember them, especially the ones who are less experienced with RPGs.

The bandits will use trees for cover, the orcs with use prepared actions, an enemy cleric will leave open slots just in case, friendly npcs will check for traps, a retired-adventurer will tell tales about how a wand of CLW and a Bag of Holding saved his life...

You don't have to be *completely* optimized to be a successful adventurer, (although that helps) as long as you know a few tricks and can be creative.

This is one of the points I'm trying to make.

The point of the builds was to show actual characters from a campaign that felt like they had things to do in and out of combat who were not optimized. Yes, they had some optimization (only an idiot wouldn't have some) but they weren't beings of perfection that people claim is needed. Heck, there were even multiclassed characters in there, one of which was a rogue (which is considered a weak class on the boards).

But you weren't talking about the same game the rest of us are.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

i THINK HE has the point by now, locke.

==Aelryinth


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Yeah... I don't think there is much more to be said in this thread... I think the Fighter discussion ended a couple bpages ago... -.-'.

Well, se you guys in another week or two, when someone creates another fighter thread.


3.5 f#$ here, I remember going through the books and finding all the feats necessary to make a great horse archer. For a fighter, it wouldn't take long to be really riding and shooting and not on many penalties. Which would mean you could cover a great distance and get shots off with a good chance to hit. Great stuff really, you can make a fighter do anything with enough feats.

Praise the fighter and their feats!


Lemmy wrote:

Yeah... I don't think there is much more to be said in this thread... I think the Fighter discussion ended a couple bpages ago... -.-'.

Well, se you guys in another week or two, when someone creates another fighter thread.

Spoiling for a fight[er thread]?

Yeah, until the next match comes around. Lol. I'm sure this could be healthier and more fun. Let us all be at peace and apply the body oil.

Silver Crusade

Lemmy wrote:

Yeah... I don't think there is much more to be said in this thread... I think the Fighter discussion ended a couple bpages ago... -.-'.

Well, se you guys in another week or two, when someone creates another fighter thread.

Yeah, when you and a few others started ignoring proof for hyperbole the thread pretty much ended.


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Nothing to do with anything but I wanted to chime in to say this is an amazing choice of topics as it has garnished near five hundred responses in just three weeks. Not getting into it but I fall on the side that likes fighters and I see nothing wrong with weapon,armor training combined with all those feats for a simple but effective character that is by no means a cookie cutter. All that flexibility is also a roleplayers dream as the paths a player chooses for his fighter inherently come with opportunities to flesh out all the nuances of the character and the whys of the choices made and if nothing else the training involved with gaining all those feats.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Conundrum, one of the main problems with the fighter is you have flexibility at creation, but you don't have flexibility Once Created. A spellcaster, on the other hand, just has to get a different set of spells, or emphasize a different array, if a Cha caster. Furthermore, skills allow greater versatility out of combat, and the Fighter has the lowest amount possible, plus an incentive to dump Int.

For JUST FEATS...the fighter is king, but not by all that much. And feats are generally the weakest of class abilities by a fair stretch, although Bravery does make feats look good (hrm...is that why they put it in there?)

===Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

Aelryinth wrote:

Conundrum, one of the main problems with the fighter is you have flexibility at creation, but you don't have flexibility Once Created. A spellcaster, on the other hand, just has to get a different set of spells, or emphasize a different array, if a Cha caster. Furthermore, skills allow greater versatility out of combat, and the Fighter has the lowest amount possible, plus an incentive to dump Int.

For JUST FEATS...the fighter is king, but not by all that much. And feats are generally the weakest of class abilities by a fair stretch, although Bravery does make feats look good (hrm...is that why they put it in there?)

===Aelryinth

Just a quick reminder.

Fighters can swap out their feats.

Thanks.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1/4 levels is not versatility of feats. heh. Although, I wonder if level 0 counts as one of those levels? I could certainly live without tower shield prof.

==Aelryinth


I think it can be interpreted either way. Either it only applies to the fighter's bonus feat class feature, as it's part of that ability description, or it's a general ability not restricted to the bonus feat class feature. While the last seems a bit counterintuitive, there's other cases where a similar logic is used (the share spells ability of familiars for example).

I'm fairly certain that the RAI is only the class feature bonus feats though.

EDIT: But I must say, using the interpretation that any bonus feat can be swapped, fighters get a fair bit stronger.


shallowsoul wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Conundrum, one of the main problems with the fighter is you have flexibility at creation, but you don't have flexibility Once Created. A spellcaster, on the other hand, just has to get a different set of spells, or emphasize a different array, if a Cha caster. Furthermore, skills allow greater versatility out of combat, and the Fighter has the lowest amount possible, plus an incentive to dump Int.

For JUST FEATS...the fighter is king, but not by all that much. And feats are generally the weakest of class abilities by a fair stretch, although Bravery does make feats look good (hrm...is that why they put it in there?)

===Aelryinth

Just a quick reminder.

Fighters can swap out their feats.

Thanks.

Just a quick reminder.

They can't swap anything that's used as a prerequisite for another feat.

I believe we had a discussion about crappy feat chains earlier. I posted a Fighter-build that didn't "waste" 4 feats on specializing in a single weapon (and thus becoming a cultist of the dice gods) and had to sludge through many feats that I neither wanted nor needed to achieve what I was going for, and then couldn't do it until 11th level anyway (until then I'm a warrior with reach, but at least I know through system mastery that I can make that work).

So just so that we're clear on it:

PRD-Fighter wrote:
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

So you can only swap a feat that is A) not a prerequisite, B) not a requirement for your prestige class, or C) a requirement for an ability that he possesses.

The only way to effectively (and take that word with a grain of salt) swap out feats is to go backwards. So if you took Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Greater Trip, and then find that tripping is not working out for you, you must lose Greater, then Improved, then Combat Expertise in that order.

There are precious, precious few feats you're actually going to be able to swap out as you gain levels. Feel free to show me some feats from THIS PAGE that are both A) a combat feat, B) are good qualifiers for using a little while then swapping them out.

I figure since you're the expert on fighter bonus feat swapping you should be able to tell us, because you surely toot its horn frequently.


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shallowsoul wrote:
Lemmy wrote:

Yeah... I don't think there is much more to be said in this thread... I think the Fighter discussion ended a couple bpages ago... -.-'.

Well, se you guys in another week or two, when someone creates another fighter thread.

Yeah, when you and a few others started ignoring proof for hyperbole the thread pretty much ended.

Tell me, then, oh-wisest-of-us. When did I ignore "proof"? What were my hyperboles? Didn't I even post two or three Fighter builds where I focused on variety, skill and combat efficiency?

You say I'm focusing on hyperboles, but were you not the one who said something like "we never know how well they'll roll" as if that was a real argument?

Honestly, all I did was have a different opinion from yours, but it seems that's the same as "ignoring proof in favor of hyperboles".


I thought this thread was dead. Besides attacking other people I really do not see the point is keep arguing.


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Aelryinth wrote:

1/4 levels is not versatility of feats. heh. Although, I wonder if level 0 counts as one of those levels? I could certainly live without tower shield prof.

==Aelryinth

Huh... Now that you mention it, Fighters would certainly be more interesting if they could trade their armor/shield proficiency for other combat feats. That'd make it easier to build duelists, for example. And dedicated archers could live without heavy armor proficiency.

Hmm... I might add that to my homebrew Fighter... haha...


Lemmy wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

1/4 levels is not versatility of feats. heh. Although, I wonder if level 0 counts as one of those levels? I could certainly live without tower shield prof.

==Aelryinth

Huh... Now that you mention it, Fighters would certainly be more interesting if they could trade their armor/shield proficiency for other combat feats. That'd make it easier to build duelists, for example. And dedicated archers could live without heavy armor proficiency.

Hmm... I might add that to my homebrew Fighter... haha...

Most of times I would change tower shild prof for a couple of skill points.

Note however that heavy armor proficiency can be useful for certain builds of archers. I posted a build, but if you missed it, with point blank master and the snap shot line the archer can become a close combat warrior.


Nicos wrote:
Most of times I would change tower shild prof for a couple of skill points.

Wouldn't we all? I think very few characters actually use tower shields.

Nicos wrote:
Note however that heavy armor proficiency can be useful for certain builds of archers. I posted a build, but if you missed it, with point blank master and the snap shot line the archer can become a close combat warrior.

That's true. It may be particullary useful for Fighters thx to Armor Training, but probably not a top priority. I'd be willing to lose heavy armor proficiency in favor of a more useful feat and then take it back when I got PBM.

BTW, Not only I saw your build, but I think I even commented about it, man. And you answered me! lol.


Yeah, Tower Shield Proficiency is sadly very bad as a class feature for a Fighter. Armor Training does nothing for it, it cannot be made out of mithral (see tower shield description), and it caps Dexterity at +2. So a Fighter at high levels with a tower shield is really handicapping himself.

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