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So, I've been loking at whips and their assciated feats. Whip mastery appears to be the only one that's mandatory. The progression also looks slated for a 3/4 bab class like the bard (as they are proficient.)
The keen thing is the whole 15' reach business. I could see going several directions with a fighters feats on a whip. I'd use a half orc for the racial proficiency, but what then?
TWF: Taking a -4 to attack is steep, but that reach! Get two shocking whips and you're an irn man villain.
Whirlwind attack: Steep feat tax, but hitting everone within 15 feet of you makes you ground zero of a walking fireball.. This assumes damage feats like weapn spec and power attack.
Greater trip: Aoo's for all! I have recently made a tripping build with nobody to take the aoos, so this seems lackluster to me.
Whip mastery chain: Is this any good?
Other or any combo thereof: Fighters get lots of feats for a reason.
Any advice or suggestions? Preferably hardcovers only. If it isn't hardcover let me know before I get my hopes up.
In the new AP3 of Shattered Star there is a Bone Flail (created from a spine) that has 15ft range and can attack adjacent foes. Take a look at that. A flail with reach and can attack adjacent foes with no Attack of Oportunity is supperior to the whip.
And its just cool (if a bit freaky).
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I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
I'm making a half-orc Ranger for PFS and for purely backstory reasons I went with that racial trait as well. I have no intention of using the weapon as a primary weapon - just figured my character would keep one on hand... If some interesting suggestions get posted here I may change my approach.
Two-weapon warrior is your archetype of choice. At 11th level you will treat your offhand whip as a light weapon wrt. penalties :-)
Take power attack, combat reflexes, TWF, ITWF, improved trip and improved disarm, quickdraw and the weapon focus and weapon specialization feats, and then protective feats. You should be good to go then :-)
You might also go with high dex build and weapon finesse, and 13/14 STR for power attack to ramp up your damage.
You'd be awesome at controlling the battlefield :-P
Alternatively go with a ranger with the two-weapon fighting style and eat the penalty :-D
You could also go the combat maneuver route, with trip and grapple and reposition.
Combat Reflexes doesn't exactly add much since you don't really threaten the areas within your reach. In exchange, you have a flexible reach, meaning you can hit five foot, ten foot, and fifteen foot distances. You just can't make AOO's in them.
The whip mastery feat (improved) allows you to threaten the 10 foot mark (exact wording is your natural reach plus 5 feet.) That would make it work, and at that point, why not take the capstone of the whip mastery feats?
I was also looking at Deadly Stroke, but mostly because I've never used it before. The idea of a sneaky whip user is pretty neat. Get magic sneaky armor, glammered to look like bard clothes, and sing in combat while whipping people to death. It's like a fighter's sneak attack.
If I have them enchanted to deal electric or fire damage, would the whips no longer deal nonlethal damage? The enforcer feat and whirlwind attack is just like Dazzling Display, except it almost certainly lasts longer.
Doesn't the description of whips say that they cannot damage opponents with +1 armor ac or +3 natural armor? I think the exotic weapon scorpion whip can get around the damage and still be used as a whip if you are proficient with them. Mostly just carry a sword for finishing until you get both proficiency.
Although there is a third party archetype that was made for all pathfinders classes that removes that flaw in standard whips. It actually seems pretty fair for the cost. Might not be too hard to argue for it. While your bonus feats would be reduced (level 1 and every 6th level), you get options for whips that are kind of like rogue talents. Basically it adds all sorts of tricks for you to use. While the reduction in feats might seem like a loss, one of the tricks you get every even levels is the choice of a whip or combat maneuver related feat that can be taken repeatedly, so no major loss. Really, the archetype just lets you make whips a more feasible choice for damage. Not hard to argue for in home games and some pbp. Also, for pure cheese, there is another, related archetype that is the exact same, but uses cloaks instead of whips.
The whip mastery feat chain gets around the natural armor limitation. Last page of the feats, last feat, ultimate combat.
Ah, missed that line, sorry. Well then, I guess I can see what your second level bonus feat will be.
I saw the archetype first, and since someone bothered to make it a main feature, I assumed that it was not so easy to acquire, much like the dawnflower devish for bards. Weird.
This is a build James Maissen gave me and I am enjoying it. You don't need to go with the magus build at the end and could multiclass into other areas depending on your play style.
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Here's the idea of one I posted a few months back, but it's not a pure magus build.. but c'est la vie:I stated out a 1/2orc with this mix:
Fighter (lorewarden) 3/ Magus (hexcrafter) 9Using the racial alternative to make whip (and net) proficient.
Feats: WF: Whip (F1), Enforcer, Combat Exp(LW2), Improved Trip (F2), Whip master, intimidating prowess, Greater Trip, Improved Whip master(M5), combat reflexes and butterfly sting.
Arcana: Wand wielder, hex, maneuver mastery (trip)
Hexes: Flight and Evil EyeTraits: blade of mercy (for non-lethal with any slashing weapon and +1 damage on non-lethal), and whatever.
Eventually you'll get a +2 dueling whip, likely you will get the variant whip that you can make out of adamantine so you can sunder when you wish to.
After level 12 (if you continue the PC into specials/mods) go for maneuver master monk picking up more maneuvers.
I went with 1/2 orc as it can pick up the whip as a racial and it gets bonuses to intimidate as well as darkvision and can boost STR.. all in all a winner.
Starting stats:
STR 19
INT 14
WIS 07
DEX 14
CON 14
CHA 07Bumps to STR.
If you want to do a DEX based version then you'll want weapon finesse and fury's fall, so you can dump Enforcer & Intimidating Prowess for it. But personally I like the status effects piling on..
-James
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I'm not sure I'd bother with TWF. With that tiny damage die, you need all the damage you can get, so go for a STR build, get Power Attack, and two-hand the thing.
Whirlwind Attack sounds absolutely awesome, as does Enforcer and Intimidating Prowess. And even though you can't make AoO's, the fact that you can attack anyone in a 15-foot zone means Cleave and Great Cleave just got better, as you can now chain attacks throughout a crowd.
Hah! In looking at the capstone of the Whip Mastery feats, it allows you to grapple with the whip and it doesn't matter if you've got free hands. If you're using two whips and have Greater Grapple, you could grapple two critters if you're within range of each. Sadly that would require Improved Unarmed Strike.
Yup, I'm liking the look of the two-weapon warrior, Sangalor. Normally I'm loathe to give up armor training. Considering I've got such a long reach, it's as though I'm hybrid ranged and melee.
A feat chain with a focus on damage...
Two-Weapon Warrior archetype
1: TWF, Weapon Focus (whip), 2: Whip Mastery. 3: Power Attack 4: Weapon Spec. 5. Improved Whip Mastery 6. Improved TWF. 7. Combat Reflexes 8. Greater Weapon Focus. 9. Greater Whip Mastery. 10. Double Slice? 11. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. 12. Greater Weapon Spec. 13. Two-Weapon Rend?... etc...
This combos the TWF chain with the Whip Mastery chain. Rather than using the Combat Expertise chain of feats to get into the trip and disarm feats, just use maneuvers at range. If they can't hit you, you don't provoke.
Improved Whip Mastery lets you Spider-Man or Tarzan through terrain if you've got the environment for it. Acrobatics would come in handy here.
Greater Whip Mastery doesn't particularly add anything to a two-weapon build. The mere ability to grapple is a boon, but it doesn't get you advantages over using a single whip. Still, if you're facing something with DR, you could try grappling it as a debuff.
Dex will have to be high for this build. Weapon Finesse could replace Combat Reflexes easily, and you'd probably take it before power attack. Dropping Combat Expertise allows for INT dumping.
Double slice and TW Rend are good friends. Could easily be something else.
Not a final build per sey, but it does reduce the number of stat requirements over the Combat Expertise builds.
Edit: Just saw your post Silent Saturn. You ninja'd me! (How much sneak attack damage do I take?)
Yeah, whirlwind attack is pretty wicked. Of course, you wouldn't need that AND cleave. Man, cleaving with a whip. What's the likelyhood of those gobbos and orcs being shoulder to shoulder vs the worth of the feat investment and attribute investment in Whirlwind attack? I'll mock up another build tomorrow and see what I think of it.
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UPDATE:
This build is not entirely legal. I post another corrected build below.
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Just to give an idea about a different way to achieve the fighting with two whips: Use a one level dip into a crusader cleric of Callistria, then go monk and pick up crusader's flurry feat to flurry (and thus gain the TWF tree for free) with your deity's favored weapon: the whip ;-)
Whip Monk
Human Cleric (Crusader) 1 Monk (Martial Artist) 11
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 19, flat-footed 23 (+6 armor, +4 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 87 (12d8+24)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +12
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune exhaustion, fatigue
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.
Melee +3 Whip +16/+11 (1d3+9/x2) and
. . +3 Whip +16/+11 (1d3+9/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +12/+7 (1d10+4/x2) and
. . Whip +13/+8 (1d3+6/x2)
Ranged Shuriken +12/+7 (1d2+4/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +9/+9/+4/+4/-1
Cleric (Crusader) Spells Prepared (CL 1):
1 (1/day) Shield of Faith, Disguise Self
0 (at will) Detect Poison, Light
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Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +15 (+17 Disarming, +17 Grappling, +17 Tripping); CMD 31 (33 vs. Disarm, 33 vs. Grapple, 33 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Crusader's Flurry, Deadly Aim -3/+6, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Whip Mastery, Power Attack -3/+6, Quick Draw, Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 20), Weapon Focus (Whip), Weapon Specialization (Whip), Whip Mastery
Traits Dangerously Curious, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +19 (+31 jump, +30 to jump), Appraise +4, Climb +10, Craft (leather) +12, Escape Artist +8, Heal +7, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (nature) +1, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +18, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +5, Stealth +11, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +15
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus +5, aura, cleric channel positive energy 1d6 (2/day) (dc 9), domains (deception), exploit weakness +14, fast movement (+30'), high jump, ki defense, pain points, physical resistance 2, spontaneous casting, stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), sudden shift (6/day), unarmed strike (1d10)
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +3 Whip, +3 Whip, Shuriken (40), Whip, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Bracers of armor +6, Handy haversack (empty), Ring of force shield, Artisan's tools, masterworkCraft (leather), 84 GP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Cleric (Crusader) Domain (Deception) Associated Domain: Trickery
Bluff, Disguise, and Stealth are class skills.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 1d6 (2/day) (DC 9) (Su) A good cleric can channel positive energy to heal the living and injure the undead; an evil cleric can channel negative energy to injure the living and heal the undead.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Crusader's Flurry May use flurry of blows with deity's favored melee weapon
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Exploit Weakness +14 (Ex) At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object's hardness or the target's CR. If the check succeeds, the mar
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +9/+9/+4/+4/-1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+11/+31 with Ki point) (Ex) +11 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immune to Exhausted You are immune to the exhausted condition.
Immune to Fatigue You are immune to the fatigued condition.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Improved Whip Mastery Threaten with your whip and grasp Tiny objects
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Pain Points (Ex) At 3rd level, a martial artist's advanced knowledge of humanoid anatomy grants a +1 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls and increases the DC of his stunning fist and quivering palm by 1. This ability replaces still mind.
Physical Resistance 2 (Ex) At 7th level, if a martial artist suffers any effect that causes ability damage, ability drain, or temporary ability score penalties, the effect is reduced by 1 point. This reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 7th (to a maximum redu
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw a weapon as a free action. Throw at full rate of attacks.
Ring of force shield An iron band, this simple ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC). This special creation has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance since it is weightless and encumbrance-free. It can be activated and deactivated at will as a free action.
Spontaneous Casting The Cleric can convert stored spells into Cure or Inflict spells.
Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 20) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Sudden Shift (6/day) (Su) As an immediate action after being missed by a melee attack, teleport up to 10' away, within the reach of the attacker.
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Whip Mastery Using a whip does not provoke attacks of opportunity
With one whip and another light monk weapon you'd be flurrying at +17/+17/+12/+12/+7. With two whips it would be +15/+15/+10/+10/+5.
You can add exploit weakness check as a swift action to increase the to-hit by 2 again (if the check works, which it usually should).
You gain a lot of your whip relevant feats (disarm, trip & grapple) as bonus feats without requiring combat expertise.
AC will be OK, you have 27 base, 29 with the force shield ring, 31 with shield of faith. You could improve it by another 5 against a dedicated foe when you use exploit weakness to improve your AC instead of hitting. I put a lot of ranks here in use magic device, so getting wands or even scrolls (particularly divine scrolls) might be worth considering.
You gain improved evasion, great saves, additional defenses against ability drains/damages, high movability, immunity to fatigue and some other niceties instead. Your cleric domain will allow you to do short teleports to setup better flanking positions.
With quick draw you will basically be able to always flurry and thus use your monk level as BAB, making power attack or deadly aim (with shuriken) provide respectable damage.
As a martial artist you can take fighter feats like weapon specialization etc. for your unarmed strikes and your monk weapons - which now include the whip. So at level 13 you could add greater weapon specialization for the whip.
A lot of your wealth will go to defensive items, you need to decide for yourself how much it's worth to you. I suggested two +3 whips here, you might want to change it to +2 ghost touch weapons or such otherwise. DR might not be a problem if you manage your exploit weakness roll.
This build is probably not optimal and you might want to go for different skill selections, but it should give you some more ideas about potential builds :-)
Arght, forum ate my long post, too late to retype all of it :-(
This is an update to the previous post, the feat selection there is not entirely legal due to BAB requirements. I added a level of fighter in the beginning, so this makes it legal, allows for an extra feat, increase BAB by one, boost saves, but loses 1 extra attack (next level monk will provide it). Attacks will thus be +17/+17/+12/+12 with whip and light weapon, +15/+15/+10/+10 with two whips, stack abovementioned bonuses on top of it.
Pretty much all the rest stated above remains true.
Hope this helps (and works this time) :-P
Order: Fighter 1, Cleric (crusader) 1, Monk (martial artist) 10
Feats:
1 power attack, quick draw, deadly aim
2 weapon focus: whip, combat reflexes
3 crusader flurry, improved grapple
5 whip mastery
7 improved whip mastery
8 improved trip
9 weapon specialization: whip
11 greater whip mastery
12 improved disarm
Whip Monk
Human Cleric (Crusader) 1 Fighter 1 Monk (Martial Artist) 10
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 27, touch 19, flat-footed 23 (+6 armor, +4 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 89 (1d10+11d8+24)
Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +12
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune exhaustion, fatigue
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee +3 Whip +16/+11 (1d3+9/x2) and
. . +3 Whip +16/+11 (1d3+9/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +12/+7 (1d10+4/x2) and
. . Whip +13/+8 (1d3+6/x2)
Ranged Shuriken +12/+7 (1d2+4/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +8/+8/+3/+3
Cleric (Crusader) Spells Prepared (CL 1):
1 (1/day) Shield of Faith, Disguise Self
0 (at will) Light, Detect Magic
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +15 (+17 Disarming, +17 Grappling, +17 Tripping); CMD 31 (33 vs. Disarm, 33 vs. Grapple, 33 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round), Crusader's Flurry, Deadly Aim -3/+6, Greater Whip Mastery, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Whip Mastery, Power Attack -3/+6, Quick Draw, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 20), Weapon Focus (Whip), Weapon Specialization (Whip), Whip Mastery
Traits Dangerously Curious, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +19 (+31 jump, +29 to jump), Appraise +4, Climb +10, Craft (leather) +10, Escape Artist +8, Heal +7, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (arcana) +5, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (nature) +1, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +5, Perception +18, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +12, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +15
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus +5, aura, cleric channel positive energy 1d6 (2/day) (dc 9), domains (deception), exploit weakness +13, fast movement (+30'), high jump, ki defense, pain points, physical resistance 2, spontaneous casting, stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), sudden shift (6/day), unarmed strike (1d10)
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +3 Whip, +3 Whip, Shuriken (40), Whip, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Bracers of armor +6, Handy haversack (empty), Ring of force shield, Artisan's tools, masterworkCraft (leather), 64149 GP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Aura (Ex) The Cleric has an aura corresponding to his deity's alignment.
Cleric (Crusader) Domain (Deception) Associated Domain: Trickery
Bluff, Disguise, and Stealth are class skills.
Cleric Channel Positive Energy 1d6 (2/day) (DC 9) (Su) A good cleric can channel positive energy to heal the living and injure the undead; an evil cleric can channel negative energy to injure the living and heal the undead.
Combat Reflexes (5 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Crusader's Flurry May use flurry of blows with deity's favored melee weapon
Deadly Aim -3/+6 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Exploit Weakness +13 (Ex) At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object's hardness or the target's CR. If the check succeeds, the mar
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Greater Whip Mastery Grapple using a whip
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immune to Exhausted You are immune to the exhausted condition.
Immune to Fatigue You are immune to the fatigued condition.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Improved Whip Mastery Threaten with your whip and grasp Tiny objects
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Pain Points (Ex) At 3rd level, a martial artist's advanced knowledge of humanoid anatomy grants a +1 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls and increases the DC of his stunning fist and quivering palm by 1. This ability replaces still mind.
Physical Resistance 2 (Ex) At 7th level, if a martial artist suffers any effect that causes ability damage, ability drain, or temporary ability score penalties, the effect is reduced by 1 point. This reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 7th (to a maximum redu
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw a weapon as a free action. Throw at full rate of attacks.
Ring of force shield An iron band, this simple ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC). This special creation has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance since it is weightless and encumbrance-free. It can be activated and deactivated at will as a free action.
Construction
Requirements: Forge Ring, wall of force; Cost 4,250 gp
Spontaneous Casting The Cleric can convert stored spells into Cure or Inflict spells.
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 20) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Sudden Shift (6/day) (Su) As an immediate action after being missed by a melee attack, teleport up to 10' away, within the reach of the attacker.
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Whip Mastery Using a whip does not provoke attacks of opportunity
To me, the big question about a whip-fighter is whether I'll build for control or damage, since it looks difficult to do both at once.
Two-Weapon Warrior
With a Two-Weapon Warrior build, you could use an early Fighter Bonus Feat to pick up Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Nunchaku. It's a light weapon in the Flail weapon training group, so you could use it in your off hand without incurring the -4 penalty for wielding two one-handed weapons. At level 12, after you get Improved Balance, you could trade it out.
I could also see a TWW build going for Combat Patrol. At level 11 your protected area would have a 20' radius, and you'd get to attack with both whips on an Attack of Opportunity!
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-Class / Race-
Human Fighter - Lore Warden
-Stats (25 point buy)-
STR 14 (+6 item) = 20
DEX 16 (+2 racial)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 29
CON 13
INT 13
WIS 09
CHA 14 (+6 item) = 20
-Hit-
Attack 35
Trip 43
-Feats-
01 Racial Heritage (Hobgoblin), Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip, Weapon Finesse
02 Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus Whip
03 Whip Mastery
04 Dodge
05 Improved Whip Mastery
06 Mobility
07 Spring Attack
08 Whirlwind Attack
09 Lunge
10 Dazzling Display
11 Shatter Defenses
12 Demoralizing Lash
13 Skill Focus Intimidate
14 Improved Trip
15 Greater Trip
16 Combat Reflexes
17 Intimidating Prowess
18 Weapon Specialization Whip
19 Greater Weapon Focus Whip
20 Greater Weapon Specialization Whip
-Method-
Full round intimidate(39) to make all enemies shaken to all and flat-footed to u only. Next round 20ft aoe Whirlwind Attack that increases the duration of intimidate by another round against each target struck via Demoralizing Lash. On single / few targets same thing but instead of whirlwind attack use trip(d20 + 43) and make use of AoO granted when they fall prone and get back up.
I have often thought of a half Drow paragon scorpion whip magus.
I see no were mentioned Serpent Lash. Check it out, its sort of a game changer for Whip builds.
I see no were mentioned Serpent Lash. Check it out, its sort of a game changer for Whip builds.
I think it does not fit the OP's requirement of being in a hardcover... Or is it in one?
Guide to Sargarva so its legal to a point. Maybe not for the PFS. But its a triping/disarming Cleave. Not the best feat for every occasion but pretty cool.
This thread was a good read, struggling to build a whipping bard. There are some things here I had not considered.
-Class / Race-
Human Fighter - Lore Warden-Stats (25 point buy)-
STR 14 (+6 item) = 20
DEX 16 (+2 racial)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 29
CON 13
INT 13
WIS 09
CHA 14 (+6 item) = 20-Hit-
Attack 35
Trip 43-Feats-
01 Racial Heritage (Hobgoblin), Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip, Weapon Finesse
02 Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus Whip
03 Whip Mastery
04 Dodge
05 Improved Whip Mastery
06 Mobility
07 Spring Attack
08 Whirlwind Attack
09 Lunge
10 Dazzling Display
11 Shatter Defenses
12 Demoralizing Lash
13 Skill Focus Intimidate
14 Improved Trip
15 Greater Trip
16 Combat Reflexes
17 Intimidating Prowess
18 Weapon Specialization Whip
19 Greater Weapon Focus Whip
20 Greater Weapon Specialization Whip-Method-
Full round intimidate(39) to make all enemies shaken to all and flat-footed to u only. Next round 20ft aoe Whirlwind Attack that increases the duration of intimidate by another round against each target struck via Demoralizing Lash. On single / few targets same thing but instead of whirlwind attack use trip(d20 + 43) and make use of AoO granted when they fall prone and get back up.
Agile maneuvers should be added there, otherwise the maneuvers won't be great... But interesting :-)
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I'm supprised I haven't seen anyone mention the Pain Taster prestige class. With a four level dip you can get +2d6 on all of your whip attacks, not just sneak attacks. That means at lvl 11, which is when you should get the ability, with TWF feat tree you will have 6 attacks each round that all get +2d6 to attack.
Make sure you are only using scorpion whips (light weapons) so you only take a -2 on your TWF then and agile to both of those and there is no need for a high strength. To make things even better you only ever have to get within 15ft of your enemy to make a full attack, much better then a lot of melee builds.
The only problem I can think of is that you might die just by taking the class, but that may be worth it. But just to be safe have a scroll of raise dead or a cleric nearby to help just in case.
I'm supprised I haven't seen anyone mention the Pain Taster prestige class. With a four level dip you can get +2d6 on all of your whip attacks, not just sneak attacks. That means at lvl 11, which is when you should get the ability, with TWF feat tree you will have 6 attacks each round that all get +2d6 to attack.
Make sure you are only using scorpion whips (light weapons) so you only take a -2 on your TWF then and agile to both of those and there is no need for a high strength. To make things even better you only ever have to get within 15ft of your enemy to make a full attack, much better then a lot of melee builds.
The only problem I can think of is that you might die just by taking the class, but that may be worth it. But just to be safe have a scroll of raise dead or a cleric nearby to help just in case.
AFAIK scorpion whip has been errataed and isn't a light weapon anymore.
booo!
Guide to Sargarva so its legal to a point. Maybe not for the PFS. But its a triping/disarming Cleave. Not the best feat for every occasion but pretty cool.
This thread was a good read, struggling to build a whipping bard. There are some things here I had not considered.
thanks :-) depends on the OP then, when he can use it... I wouldn't be able to, we play hardcover only.
Bard is cool with whip. Just be sure to watch the ACP of your shield if you plan on using weapon finesse ;)It just eats so many feats...
I had thought Agile Maneuvers was unnecessary if you use the weapon to perform the maneuver? I could be wrong, and would like to know either way.
The Demoralizing Lash feat is interesting. Actually the whole chain is neat, but probably better suited on a Ranger who's basically guaranteed a companion with lower hit dice. (I wish there wasn't the fewer hit dice moratorium on the feat. It would be fun to play a hobgoblin named Dingo who wants to eat your babies.)
The Enforcer feat is very easy to use with a whip as you take no penalty to deal nonlethal. It's probably better to use in that case anyway as Demoralizing Lash requires to feats to get, while Enforcer you can just pick up anyway. Do the fear conditions of Enforcer stack?
One other neat thing about the half-orc proficiencies is that it also gains net proficiency.
1. TWF, Weapon Focus (whip) 2. Whip Mastery. 3. Quick Draw. 4. Net and Trident. 5. Weapon Spec. 6. Improved Two Weapon Fighting. 7. Power Attack. 8. Greater Weapon Focus. 9. Improved Whip Mastery/Dazzling Display 10. Greater Whip Mastery/Shatter Defenses 11. GTWF 12. Greater Weapon Spec/Deadly Stroke
If you want to focus more on the debuff aspect of the net, go for intimidate checks. If you want to deal more damage, by all means take the damage feats.
Basic modus operandi here would be to chuck the net with your dominant hand, whip with the off hand, quick draw your other whip and continue whipping for more damage. The net and trident feat is not entirely necessary, but it does add 2 damage to your damage rolls. It states that you deal +2 damage to entangled creatures. It seems to only apply to one weapon, although it doesn't openly state it. If that's the case perhaps the feat is unnecessary.
Power attack (2+2 per four levels), 2 per weapon spec, 2 per Net and Trident, 2 per fighter bonus damage = +16 to damage rolls in ideal situations not including strength or weapon properties. (Assuming the appropriate feats.) If you take Greater Whip mastery instead of dazzle and shatter, you could grapple with the whip two-handed and deal an additional 4 damage from power attack not including the improved strength. (I think that works.)
I like some of the nonfighter builds you groovy cats are coming up with. I wonder what a Ranger or Cavalier could get up to with a whip? A whip on horseback has some really impressive reach.
As I said before, I'm restricted to hardcover only, but I do like hearing about these other ideas. It may inspire other ideas within the hardcovers. That said, even with the other options, I have pretty well ALL the options open, including Races, evil characters, etc. It also comes with some lovely stat bonuses (my DM doesn't much care for the usual point buy, so you can get some pretty ostentatious numbers.) So while I can't use a Lore Warden fighter to get Combat Expertise on discount, I will almost certainly be starting with 18 strength and enough dex to full TWF if I want. Try not to be too jealous.
Also, I think enough people are interested in Whip builds that all the options should be on the table, at least for discussion.
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I had thought Agile Maneuvers was unnecessary if you use the weapon to perform the maneuver? I could be wrong, and would like to know either way.
You are correct.
If I have Weapon Finesse, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus??
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).
If you're just using Trip and Disarm with the whip, you don't need Agile Maneuvers.
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Also, I think enough people are interested in Whip builds that all the options should be on the table, at least for discussion.
Thanks for letting us expand the conversation beyond what might be useful to you personally.
.
Here are links to various material we've been referencing.
Fighter Archetypes:
Lore Warden
Two-Weapon Warrior
Prestige Class :
Pain Taster
Feat Chains:
Weapon Focus
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery
Greater Whip Mastery
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack
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@Sangalor
FAQ/Errata
If I have Weapon Finesse, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus??
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).
The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
Also, I think enough people are interested in Whip builds that all the options should be on the table, at least for discussion.Thanks for letting us expand the conversation beyond what might be useful to you personally.
.
Here are links to various material we've been referencing.Fighter Archetypes:
Lore Warden
Two-Weapon WarriorPrestige Class :
Pain TasterFeat Chains:
Weapon Focus
Whip Mastery
Improved Whip Mastery
Greater Whip MasteryCombat Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind AttackSerpent Lash
Greater Serpent LashFury's Fall
[url=...
I would like to add the following (using this format):
Classescleric
monk
Archetypes
crusader
martial artist
Feats and feat chains
crusader's flurry
@Sangalor
FAQ/Errata
If I have Weapon Finesse, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus??
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).
The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
@Weirdo & Psion-Psycho:
Thanks, you learn something new every day :-)So the only thing you still need to watch out for with weapon finesse is that you don't use a shield with ACP :-P
One of the problems I see with the whip is that you have difficulties overcoming DR:
- 2 +5 weapons are very expensive
- you cannot use different materials (i.e. metal) for them
- you cannot overcome DR/bludgeoning or DR/piercing with it
I tried to address it with the martial artist ability above.
Are there other ways around this while still maintaining reach and the other relevant properties?
Well, you could take the Penetrating Strike feat, assuming you stayed fighter. Ignore DR 5/typed at 12th, ignore DR 10/typed or 5 points of DR/- at 16th.
Would a weapon blanche work? I suppose not. Is there a spell that helps? I'm not that well versed in spells.
Well, you could take the Penetrating Strike feat, assuming you stayed fighter. Ignore DR 5/typed at 12th, ignore DR 10/typed or 5 points of DR/- at 16th.
Would a weapon blanche work? I suppose not. Is there a spell that helps? I'm not that well versed in spells.
12th and 16th level is pretty late in the game. The martial artist ability is there pretty much from the start.
I don't know of any spells that help here.Using your weapon in an improvised way would make it bludgeoning but probbly remove the reach property.
A monk of the empty hand could use the whip improvised and deal different types of damage, but I don't think reach applies here either.
Suitable styles like boar style only work on unarmed strike, so that does not work either...
So short of a paladin's smite evil or the martial artist's exploit weakness I can think of anything that will allow you to overcome such DR :-/
Considering that creatures like e.g. skeletons at low level already have DR which cannot be overcome by the whip I do think this is something that should be taken into account.
A scorpion whip is studded with metal barbs which you should be able to make from special materials RAW. (altho I don't expect a GM to let you do this for less than the 3000g any other weapon requires, that would be broken IMO)
And before the "made mostly of metal" comes up, you can, by RAW, put Cold Iron spikes on a wooden shield and it counts, even tho the shield spikes aren't "most" of the shield.
...
The material DRs are not a real problem IMO. It will cost you a lot of funds, but you can overcome that DR wih +3 or +4 whips. The bludgeoning and piercing DRs can be a real problem here... :-/
Dealing with Damage Resistance
Weapon Blanche would work, as would Silversheen.
A level 2 spell, Align Weapon "makes a weapon chaotic, evil, good, or lawful, as you choose."
A level 3 spell, Vsersatile Weapon "alters the physical properties of a weapon, enabling it to bypass damage reduction of one the following types: bludgeoning, cold iron, piercing, silver, or slashing."
If you're in a campaign with a particular type of enemy very consistently, you could also get a magical property to the weapon that helps, most likely "Holy".
A high-damage build (STR build) could punch through a lot of DR.
A low-damage build (DEX build) could keep resistant enemies from being effective by keeping them prone. Rather than being the damage dealer in this fight, Whippy would be the controller, neutralizing the enemy while his companions finish them off.
One of the problems I see with the whip is that you have difficulties overcoming DR:
You're looking to deal damage?
With the whip?
Why? Trip, reposition, drag, disarm, etc. Make the enemy provoke and let your allies deal the damage..
-James
Yes, in this thread we are. And we are looking for maneuvers as well :-)
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Usually I would not really advise this, but for the purpose of a whip fighting character going for fighter / bard / eldritch knight might be an interesting option. This here is a suggestion if you do not require the two-weapon fighting tree (still doable, but not what I envision for this thing):
Bard Whip ek
Human Bard (Magician) 7 Eldritch Knight 4 Fighter 1
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 26, touch 12, flat-footed 26 (+11 armor, +3 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 93 (5d10+7d8+24)
Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +9
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +5 Whip +19/+14 (1d3+8/x2)
Special Attacks bardic performance (move action) (19 rounds/day), bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (3 targets) (dc 16), bardic performance: inspire competence +3, bardic performance: suggestion (dc 16)
Bard (Magician) Spells Known (CL 12):
4 (1/day) Invisibility, Greater, Dimension Door
3 (4/day) Haste, Invisibility Sphere, Dispel Magic, Good Hope
2 (5/day) Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Blur, Versatile Weapon (DC 15)
1 (6/day) Cure Light Wounds, Grease (DC 14), Feather Fall (DC 14), Saving Finale (DC 14), Solid Note, Shield, Align Weapon
0 (at will) Mage Hand, Prestidigitation (DC 13), Read Magic, Message, Light, Detect Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 17
Base Atk +10; CMB +13 (+15 Disarming, +15 Tripping); CMD 25 (27 vs. Disarm, 27 vs. Trip)
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise +/-3, Great Fortitude, Improved Counterspell, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Whip Mastery, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery
Traits Magical Knack (Bard [Magician]), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -3 (-7 jump), Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Ride -3, Stealth -3, Swim +0
Languages Common, Draconic, Giant
SQ arcane bond - object (1/day), bardic performance: dweomercraft +2, extended performance, magical talent (1/day)
Other Gear +5 Agile breastplate, +5 Whip, Amulet of natural armor +3, Cloak of resistance +3, Handy haversack (empty), Ring of protection +2, Ring of sustenance, 649 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Bond - Object (1/day) At 5th level, a magician gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard. He may not choose a familiar or a weapon as a bonded item. This ability replaces lore master.
DC 20 + spell level to cast spells without the bonded object. Once per day, you can c
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Performance (move action) (19 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Dweomercraft +2 (Su) Bonus on caster level checks, concentration checks, and attack rolls with spells and spell-like abilities.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (3 targets) (DC 16) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +3 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Bardic Performance: Suggestion (DC 16) (Sp) Make a Suggestion to one Fascinated creature.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Extended Performance (Su) Sacrifice a spell slot to extend a performance beyond concentration by the slot's level.
Improved Counterspell Use a spell of the same school 1+ levels higher to Counterspell.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Whip Mastery Threaten with your whip and grasp Tiny objects
Magical Knack (Bard [Magician]) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Magical Talent +3 (1/day) (Ex) You add half your bard level to Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device checks
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Whip Mastery Using a whip does not provoke attacks of opportunity
You have 95 skills to distribute.
Your AC is 26, you enchanted your amulet as a natural armor amulet +3 at 50% discount. By using the magician's ability to get spells from other class lists, you choose shield and align weapon.
Shield allows you to boost AC to 30, align weapon - in conjunction with versatile weapon - allows you to overcome any kind of DR. So you do not really require the +5 whip but can go for something else more different weapons/whips.
Arcane Strike allows you to add +3 to damage.
Power attack is at -3/+6.
Alternatively exchange STR and DEX, drop great fortitude and power attack and pick up weapon finesse and TWF instead. GTWF at next level, increase DEX instead of CHA accordingly :-)
If the lore warden takes a 2 level dip into magus he can spell combat true strikes for when you really want to make that cmb check.
Usually I would not really advise this, but for the purpose of a whip fighting character going for fighter / bard / eldritch knight might be an interesting option. This here is a suggestion if you do not require the two-weapon fighting tree (still doable, but not what I envision for this thing):
Bard Whip ek
Human Bard (Magician) 7 Eldritch Knight 4 Fighter 1
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 26, touch 12, flat-footed 26 (+11 armor, +3 natural, +2 deflection)
hp 93 (5d10+7d8+24)
Fort +13, Ref +9, Will +9
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +5 Whip +19/+14 (1d3+8/x2)
Special Attacks bardic performance (move action) (19 rounds/day), bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (3 targets) (dc 16), bardic performance: inspire competence +3, bardic performance: suggestion (dc 16)
Bard (Magician) Spells Known (CL 12):
4 (1/day) Invisibility, Greater, Dimension Door
3 (4/day) Haste, Invisibility Sphere, Dispel Magic, Good Hope
2 (5/day) Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Blur, Versatile Weapon (DC 15)
1 (6/day) Cure Light Wounds, Grease (DC 14), Feather Fall (DC 14), Saving Finale (DC 14), Solid Note, Shield, Align Weapon
0 (at will) Mage Hand, Prestidigitation (DC 13), Read Magic, Message, Light, Detect Magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 17
Base Atk +10; CMB +13 (+15 Disarming, +15 Tripping); CMD 25 (27 vs. Disarm, 27 vs. Trip)
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Expertise +/-3, Great Fortitude, Improved Counterspell, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Whip Mastery, Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus (Whip), Whip Mastery
Traits Magical Knack (Bard [Magician]), Reactionary...
Note: I forgot to make the breastplate mithral. This way here makes no sense... :-P
Did the OP say he wanted to use 2 whips exclusively?
Because it seems to me some of the DR problem could be mitigated by wielding the whip in one hand and a Mace or something in the other (Flail if you want to stick with the chain weapon shtick), and then just have a [Insert Piercing Weapon Here] hanging off your belt or summat.
And the Flail/Piercing weapon can be made of special materials.
Did the OP say he wanted to use 2 whips exclusively?
Because it seems to me some of the DR problem could be mitigated by wielding the whip in one hand and a Mace or something in the other (Flail if you want to stick with the chain weapon shtick), and then just have a [Insert Piercing Weapon Here] hanging off your belt or summat.
And the Flail/Piercing weapon can be made of special materials.
I believe the correct answer is Morningstar - It has damage types P and B, and it's in the flail weapon group. At the necessary levels, it wouldn't be tough to own a set of +1 flails in cold iron, silver, and adamant.
Heavy Flail isn't a bad choice either. It doesn't do peircing damage, but it's a two-handed bashing weapon in the flail weapon group, and it has the trip and disarm properties.