My group has recently started up the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition and our GM seems to be pulling a few questionable moves.
The frist of such moves is that the gear dropped from goblin is worthless to the pcs. It cannot be sold to vendors for quick cash as it is holds no monetary value being made from the garbage and such. So we generate no revenue from this.
Second, our group has a number of GM's in its ranks and from quick math they say that as far as experience points gained per kill/trap/scenario we are being short changed.
Third. Monsters have been buffed. We do run the epic 25 stat build but it caps a characters stat at 18 after racial adjustment. Goblins and such run around with 8+ hit points each with double digit numbers (part size ranges per session with 3-6), increased number of enemy combatants without the experience points to follow, and increased enemy stats. Goblins and goblin commandos with 16 strengths is a lot to handle.
Other things come to mind as well, but this is the skinny of the gripe. Please advice.
Some of the gobboes have char class and more than 10 hp yes. On the rest, your GM needs to be confronted and if that doesn't work, fired. All of that is crap, even dogslicers of small size have a listed gp value, and studded leather off a gobbo is good enough for a gnome or halfling so you should be able to sell their gear. Don't stand for this. If there are other GM's at the table let one of them step up to replace this person if the malarkey doesn't cease.Let it be known that one of you WILL run this thing right if he/she won't. These games COST REAL money and should be enjoyable for everyone, not just some lone douche with delusions of godhood ruining everyones game.
The frist of such moves is that the gear dropped from goblin is worthless to the pcs. It cannot be sold to vendors for quick cash as it is holds no monetary value being made from the garbage and such. So we generate no revenue from this.
For the most part this is correct. Goblins do not have weapons of any kind of quality that someone would want to buy. They are scavengers and improvisers to a fault. You're not going to get much in the way of loot off of them in the early parts of RotRL1.
Second, our group has a number of GM's in its ranks and from quick math they say that as far as experience points gained per kill/trap/scenario we are being short changed.Third. Monsters have been buffed. We do run the epic 25 stat build but it caps a characters stat at 18 after racial adjustment. Goblins and such run around with 8+ hit points each with double digit numbers (part size ranges per session with 3-6), increased number of enemy combatants without the experience points to follow, and increased enemy stats. Goblins and goblin commandos with 16 strengths is a lot to handle.
RotRL, and all other APs, are designed around 4 players using 15-point buy. If the GM doesn't scale up encounters, you will completely crush them, especially at low levels when the 15 vs 25-point buy is at its most obvious.
However, what I'm really thinking the problem is here is that you aren't trusting your GM. Why do you need to calculate how much EXP you should be getting vs how much you are actually getting. Maybe he wants to keep you at lower levels for longer (something that could be solved by using a slower leveling track, but that might not be his style), or perhaps he wants to throw more creatures at you for bigger battles. Why don't you present your issues to him and see what he has to say.
Also, since this mostly pertains to RotRL, there is a specific forum for that AP. You can flag the post to get this thread moved to that forum.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Whoah, whoah, whoah.
Before more people jump of the deep end and start screaming "bad DM!" let's get a few facts for the crowd. First, what level is the party? Second, how long have you been playing in this particular campaign? Third, how many people are in your group?
From what I'm hearing it sounds like your DM is being really reasonable with the group. He's got y'all on a strong point buy and it sounds like the group has a lot of collective experience. Everything you've written so far sounds like your DM is just trying to make the module challenging for you rather than have you stomp through it effortlessly.
It's both a DM's right and responsibility to adjust the campaign to suit his/her players. There's no fun to be had in easily defeating challenges time and again. I've played with DMs who offer basically no wealth as we level, or kept us at half the standard value. It was difficult to play, but so rewarding when we succeeded.
So maybe don't be so quick to think your DM is pulling a bunch of dick moves on you. If it really bothers you, just freakin' talk to him. Let him know that you're confused as to why he's doing any of this.
Why bother with 25 point buy if you aren't going to follow the rules and allow scores above 18 after adjustments?! That is HOGWASH. Go with a 20 point buy instead and actually try following the rules, I.E. scores above 18 with racial modifiers.Even goblin gear from the bestiary has listed book values...FOLLOW the rules and let them sell the stuff. If you have more than four players, ok add more monsters BUT consider VERY carefully by how much you increase the number because if you over shoot and kill players by doing so they will think you are targeting them out of spite. GM have a responsibility to not abuse their power, let us not forget that part either.
The party is second level as of the end of the last session. Before that for four sessions we were first level, including the limited beating encounter with the monk, the boar, and others.
The party size ranges from 3-6. Most of the previous sessions we have only had 3 members present, one sessions we had 4, and only last session did all 6 appear.
yup, confront this GM is my only advice, take it or leave it or go passive like the others here suggest and just take it until it improves or you can't take it.That simple, good luck and happy gaming.
-Conundrum-
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The other question that should be asked is this: "Are you having fun?". All sorts of wealth/xp/cr wonkiness is excusable, if the group is having fun.
Why bother with 25 point buy if you aren't going to follow the rules and allow scores above 18 after adjustments?! That is HOGWASH. Go with a 20 point buy instead and actually try following the rules, I.E. scores above 18 with racial modifiers.Even goblin gear from the bestiary has listed book values...FOLLOW the rules and let them sell the stuff. If you have more than four players, ok add more monsters BUT consider VERY carefully by how much you increase the number because if you over shoot and kill players by doing so they will think you are targeting them out of spite. GM have a responsibility to not abuse their power, let us not forget that part either.
It's also the GM's game to adjudicate as they see fit. That's what houserules are for. Such as "no ability scores over 18" because the GM isn't a fan of stat-dumping and wants everyone to have decent scores across the board. Whether or not you think that's how best to play doesn't make it badwrong.
Also, sure, goblin weapons have a listed gold value, because pretty much everything in Pathfinder does. That doesn't mean the party has to be able to find someone willing to purchase said weapons. Or perhaps the GM is off-setting the inflated stats and larger party size with lower-than-average WBL.
I'm quite bemused at how indignant you seem at this GM. We don't have the full picture here, not by a longshot.
The party is second level as of the end of the last session. Before that for four sessions we were first level, including the limited beating encounter with the monk, the boar, and others.
I know where that is in the adventure. That's pretty much bang-on for hitting second level, so your GM is not hampering you on the exp front. Perhaps he's giving you less and adding more monsters because he thinks you can handle the challenge. Has there been a lot of near-death situations, or have you been breezing through it?
And again, not a whole lot in the way of loot when you're that far through. Goblin weapons are made out of trash. Perhaps ask if you could see about selling them for a tiny amount to the smith for their raw materials or something.
I believe he is strictly going by the "The party should be at _____ by this point in this adventure" and adding creatures as he sees fit, increasing monsters stats/levels, and others.
I am acting as a mouth piece for my group. They've come to me with issues but haven't confronted the GM themselves. I thought I'd come and see what the boards thought of the matter.
One issue I have is this: He is a second ed GM and does not believe in wealth by level, believing the 'less is more' mentality when it comes to magical goodies and wealth. A player coming into a game, even at higher level, can suggest items to start with but...
I do believe a GM has final call and all, players can try and defend themselves/others and plead their case. He worries that people will kill off their char to bring in one with better gear than the rest of the party.
Doesn't seem like he is doing anything wrong per se rather that it is a difference of agreement on style of play. Talk to him and see if you guys can get on the same page or let someone else take over.
If you are at the level that you should be at in the AP, I don't see the issue with experience; then again, the people I play with prefer not being told to track experience, as we find it kinda immersion breaking and encourages you to think of it as a game of Diablo >_<. After accomplishing so many of our goals, the DM just says "everyone levels :D" - usually takes 4-6 sessions.
Goblin weapons are pretty much trash, but then again someone may want trash; sounds like the DM is just saving you the trouble of not finding anyone who wants it by just saying so out of game. Again, I also don't really see the appeal of trying to loot everything that isn't nailed down; stuff gets uncomfortable to carry for not much reward ;o
If you guys can handle the increased challenge, then I also don't see the issue, as if you can handle what you described then you would have curb stomped the default AP.
That aside, you didn't answer the the most important question someone else already asked; are you guys having fun?
Look for Ye Olde Scrappe Yarde and see if the metal from the goblin's junk is worths some copper.
Otherwise if your group isn't into this, tell him and start a new game with a different GM.
But I will say that the APs are pretty weak in terms of making a challenge for players mechanically so I am all behind your GMs choices.
I agree with Ubiquitous and the others who side with your GM. There's no "entitlement" when it comes to the game, but that's reducing the game to a pointless and ugly competition, really. Let the GM tell his tale, and go along with it. If you feel you're missing out on an opportunity ("can't we sell some of this goblin cutlery for a few coins somewhere? We need FOOD and SHELTER!?") then by all means bring it up.
|
As others have said, the problem here is mis-matched expectations.
I'm running a group through RotRL at the moment. They're just about to level up for the first time, and even with a couple of extra encounters thrown in (one of which is "Junk Beach" from Pathfinder comic #1) they've probably only picked up a few hundred GP in miscellaneous spoils - certainly less than 100 GP per person.
Nobody's complaining - they're not interested in trying to get the last few coppers by looting goblins for dogslicers (although they did miss out on the mounted goblin commando, who had a somewhat more valuable weapon). Perhaps if they get offered a bounty on goblin ears they might bother to trade those in.
My party follow the recommendation in the AP for a 15-point buy, so I'm running the goblins as shown in the Bestiary. If they'd been on a 25-point buy, or if the party had been over-strength, I'd definitely have been cranking the goblins up a little - it's no fun for anybody if the monsters don't pose a credible threat to the party members.
I am the dm of a kingmaker campaign, and I can say that I constantly add and/or change the amount/stats of monsters. This is a really easy way to make sure that your players are challenged in combat. I dont know how your dm treats these combats, but I just tend to keep track of how they handle each encounter, and add or take away from the challenge rating as needed.
I'm currently running a group through ROTR, And I wish i had increased the encounters. They are half way through the second book and so far the only had a few times where they were really challenged, and we are using 20 point buy.
My group has recently started up the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition and our GM seems to be pulling a few questionable moves.
The first of such moves is that the gear dropped from goblin is worthless to the pcs. It cannot be sold to vendors for quick cash as it is holds no monetary value being made from the garbage and such. So we generate no revenue from this.
A bit questionable - masterwork gear is masterwork and can be cleaned up and used by halflings and gnomes. The other goblin gear, well, he may have a point. But certainly the good stuff should be resalable.
Not all DMs like the WBL guidelines, they prefer the less is more attitude. It can work, especially if your characters have good stats.
Second, our group has a number of GM's in its ranks and from quick math they say that as far as experience points gained per kill/trap/scenario we are being short changed.
There are three tracks in Pathfinder, and you have a target level to reach by each stage of the adventure. Plus, if there are more than 4 PCs then XP awards drop. As long as you hit the desired levels at the right point, don't sweat it.
Third. Monsters have been buffed. We do run the epic 25 stat build but it caps a characters stat at 18 after racial adjustment. Goblins and such run around with 8+ hit points each with double digit numbers (part size ranges per session with 3-6), increased number of enemy combatants without the experience points to follow, and increased enemy stats. Goblins and goblin commandos with 16 strengths is a lot to handle.
Er, no, you are capped at 20 after racial adjustment.
The monsters buffed? Well frankly that's par for the course. There are sections of that adventure when you will face goblins with class levels, buffed by warsingers and lead by their chieftain.
Other things come to mind as well, but this is the skinny of the gripe. Please advice.
OK, if you are not having fun, then talk to your DM about the rewards being somewhat lacking for all the hard work. Adventurers often adventure for profit, not just heroics.
I've run this adventure a couple of times, played it too, and it's not an overly tough adventure. It could be that he is upping it to 'hard' level for the sakes of challenging experienced players. With ragard to loot rewards, I strongly recommend that if the gold isn't coming in very fast, take crafting feats. If he nerfs these, take him to task on it: at higher levels in this adventure you will need to have decent gear to do the job. If he wants less to be more, then ask him for something like a signature item for each of you that will scale with level or something - compromise is the name of the game, because there is no game without it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You guys clearly need to have a talk, in person, with each other.
- How challenging should things be for players?
- How wealthy should players be?
- Should we have access to buy whatever we like?
- How serious/humorous should this game be?
- How important are rules vs. having fun?
- Are PC's regular townsfolk, or are they the superheroes of the land?
- Is super-realism fun, or annoying?
Honestly, this should have been discussed before you start, but you can do it now, it's not too late.
Geez, your DM gave a 25 pt build and you’re complaining as you got squat for loot? You each started with the equivalent of TWO +2 stat items each. And then you complain as you are capped @ 18? OK, would you rather have a 15 pt build with no caps?
We did the Sandpoint thing, and there really isn’t much loot, and by and large a lot of the gobo stuff is junk.
Now our DM just says “time for everyone to level” when we hit a certain point. I think that works better in these games where the PC’s are expected to be a certain level at a certain point (it seems he level us a little before that time).
|
@DragonMunchie
I both agree and disagree with ur GM's methods being a gm y self in the 3e and 3.5 days. I agree on the grounds that a gm should stat his monsters based on the averages of the party's to hit and ac to make them as challenging as he sees fit for the party. Also to little and to much wealth can ruin a game. The trick is not to make the players rich or poor but to keep them hungry. I like how he is giving gear that is rely only usable by goblins since armor should be tailored to those that wear it and different races and sexes have different proportions. After all a dwarf is too short and bulky to fit in the tall and skinny elf armor even if both are classified as medium size creatures. I disagree though with gear values. All items have a recycle value if u can find the right person. Leather can be sold to tanners, leather workers, and skinners even if there scraps they hold some value like being reused for jackets and blankets or tarps perhaps. When it comes to metal, no mater the quality, a metallurgy can smelt and reforge it and if ur gm says that the metal is not pure or some thing along those lines say great because impurities in the iron is what makes it even stronger though a tad bit harder to work with.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The issue sounds like a GM trying to make a 15 pt buy 4 person AP work for a 25pt buy group, which is harder than it sounds for this particular adventure. He will either have to re-write alot, or extend the adventure and keep your loot low (which it sounds like is what happenened) or almost skip book 1 entirely.
The disconnect is that if you all wanted to run a 25pt epic game, there should have been a discussion about how the 15 pt 4 person AP was going to be fit into that mold.
Also, I know a lot of people, myself included, have completely forgone the option to calculate XP and use story point leveling, which is a lot more convenient and easy to use. Perhaps he is going this route and just hasn't told you all? If not, that might keep everything on even keel and reduce the compulsion to second guess the GM.
|
|
I disagree though with gear values. All items have a recycle value if u can find the right person. Leather can be sold to tanners, leather workers, and skinners even if there scraps they hold some value like being reused for jackets and blankets or tarps perhaps.
That is all very true. But while scraps of leather may be of significant value in a peasant economy, is worrying about all this stuff what you want your heroic adventurers to spend all their time doing? They should be planning for the days when they can buy items with prices in the thousands of GP, not accounting down to the last fraction of a copper piece. That +2 sword wouldn't really always cost 8315 GP - prices would range either side of that by at least 1000 GP. That's glossed over in the game; accept the fact that tracking wealth in excruciating detail is also skipped.
|
If you're in the first levels of a campaign, and you already don't like the way this is going, talk to your GM as a group. If you can't find a decent compromise, he's not running the game you guys want to play, get out and start a new game with someone else behind the screen.
That being said, this is still only half of the story...Get the GM in here to discuss. Might as well ;)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This doesn't sound like an issue to me at all. Sounds a lot like first world problems...
I ran through the start of RotRL in a group having similar experiences. Goblin gear being worthless makes sense; its constructed of trash. The amount of wealth you'd accumulate selling anything for scrap is negligible in the scheme of things for an adventurer. We took a bit of exception to "masterwork" dogslicers also being worthless (I blame the module for that...they should have just given them real weapons if they intended it to be treasure, or class levels if they really needed that +1 to attack; giving them masterwork garbage to fight with was a silly thing to do). Still, its not the end of the world. You play on.
As mentioned, 25 point buy seriously counteracts having less wealth. That only goes so far of course, and in our campaign the poverty got pretty absurd. By the time we were level 5 or 6, we didn't even have wealth appropriate for a 2nd level party (i.e. our paladin couldn't even buy the full plate he wanted to wear). That definitely sucked, and it definitely went way too far, but guess what? It was still fun. And in the long run the DM should be able to work things like that out (it shouldn't take until level 5, granted).
I bring this up because, the imbalance in our game was also at least partially CAUSED by the same things you're complaining about. Namely, having a higher than intended point buy (20), and the DM compensating for that by adding challenges. Only, he gave us the XP for those challenges. So we ended up gaining levels faster than intended, and the cycle repeated itself.
Your DM will likely correct the issue at some point (when it becomes an issue, and not necessarily before). Ya'll are level 2 for crying out loud. You haven't even given the DM time to correct any perceived wealth issues. But tracking XP and gaining the levels you're feeling entitled to is NOT the answer.
Why on earth would you WANT to track EXP so closely that you end up out leveling the module? He's adding monsters to give you a challenge, not to have you level faster so everything gets even easier. Just level when he says to level, so you're the right level for the current challenges. Perhaps you track XP to get a rough idea of how close you are or to keep players and DM on the same page about progression, but its the DM's right and responsibility to adjust your level progression to match the module.
Tracking XP precisely when the DM is adding enemies to better challenge you will NOT encourage the DM to give you the treasure you want. You'll end up higher level (and with higher stats) than the module intends, and he'll hold back even more treasure to compensate.
Give him time to work out the balance. In the meantime/short term, he's keeping things challenging by keeping wealth low and expanding encounters. You know, because ya'll are playing 25 point buy superheroes with no weaknesses (you wouldn't have any 20s in a 15 point buy either more than likely, but you'd darn well have some low stats).
Bottom line, TL;DR
--STOP being to self entitled to treasure and experience points.
--TRUST the DM to get you through the campaign while giving you appropriate challenges and telling a compelling story.
--TRY to worry more about the campaign and your characters place in it and less about the numbers on your sheet.
--TALK to the DM as a group if you just can't have fun without adhering to the WBL/XP tables, BUT be willing to take your stats down to a lower point buy if do.
--Have FUN.
--And IF you can't make it work with the DM in question, maybe the game he runs is not compatible with the group, and you may need to swap GMs.
Doesn't sound to me like the DM is the problem though.
|
|
@JohnF
I agree but u also have to take into consideration that u have to make it to that point. Every copper u can get is needed at low levels if the gm is doing its job properly, though that may b different now a days since ive GMed back in the day. In the old days the GMs would actually enforce the rules of starvation and take into consideration the weather of the environment. I had a player in 1 of my games that died from heat stroke because he did not pay attention to weather climate and did not get a weeks worth of water knowing that he was crossing the dessert to the next village on foot. Point being that those copper peaces will insure nights out of the rain and heat in an inn and a meal every day with rations to spare just in case. Personally i find pathfinder and a lot of the people that GM to be to lenient. Its nice to see a 2e gm going by some of the old grandfather rules that actually make sense.
MTCityHunter basically said everything I could want to say, but I will re-emphasize.
You are a potential 6-person 25 point buy party in an AP built for a 4-person 15 point buy group. You are grossly overpowered, and if you want there to be any challenge whatsoever, the GM will need to make adjustments. These adjustments may cause some things to be a bit funky, with XP not matching up, receiving less loot, encounters being made more difficult via more enemies/higher stats, etc. But it should stabilize eventually.
At level 2, there hasn't been much time for the GM to adjust, and on top of that the WBL guidelines are estimates. I know in Council of Thieves one of my players complained about how they didn't each have 1k at level 2, but that was because they spent almost all of the first level in the sewers fighting goblins, zombies, and rats. By level 3 they were pretty much back on track. Just because you are not at WBL at level 2 doesn't signify the end of the world, treasure doesn't always come at an even distribution over levels.
If you are by and large having fun, your group needs to stop front-of-the-screen GMing. Stop worrying about WBL, XP, etc. Let the GM do his job. If you are not having fun, then the whole group needs to get together and come to a resolution.
One thing in defense of your DM...if you like interesting loot drops that are useable by you party Runelords is not the adventure path for you.
Its is chock full of crap useless to 90% of the PC's and if your DM isnt the type that allows you to sell enjoy your extensive collection of boat anchor's (ogre hooks) Dull shaving implements (dog slicers) and later on, when you dont need one anymore...you could start a nice ring of prot +1 collection (I hear the make nice gifts at christmas)
My DM is kind enough to allow us to sell at a rate comensurate with our reputation within the area we are residing at the moment...so we were fine, but we did have a laugh at the thought of starting a nice Boat Anchor buisness on the beaches of Sandpoint...seeing as we had so many lying around and all...some even magical!
|
|
@JohnF
I agree but u also have to take into consideration that u have to make it to that point.
If you're going by Pathfinder rules, every character starts off with somewhere around 150GP. Saving 10% of that to cover minor incidental expenses should keep you alive for the first week of game time. After that the party should have free board and lodging in Sandpoint, and more than enough wealth to buy provisions should they venture outside the area.
Most of my GM experience comes from the 2e days (and even before 2e came along). I don't miss it (except for some nostalgia for the pre-spellblight Forgotten Realms ...) - my players want to perform deeds of valour, not die of dysentry on the Oregon Trail.
I'm in Dabbler's RotRL game. I agree that the very first bit of Burnt Offerings is a little short on treasure (if you're a goblin), but by the end of the module I don't think things were too bad in terms of loot.
ROTL with more than a 15 point buy is stupidly easy.
|
|
@JohnF
The Oregon Trail, as u stated, is much part of the game as is combat. Inadequacy in preparation should not be awarded or ignored. Im the type of GM that lets the dice fall as they may. I will not actively kill u but i wont stop u from killing ur self. So if u dont drink water or eat for x period of time i will break out those rules. The OPer should be thankful that the GM that (s)he is playing with is nice enough to allow them to begin with 25 point buy and is considerate enough to modify the monsters appropriately. Any1 that has ever GMed would understand the work of scaling monsters to be of some challenge being it buffing or debuffing them.
In defense of the GM,
People have gone over this AP and put everything into a spreadsheet to see how it stacks up via 'wealth by level'
For a 4 person party if you hit every encounter in the book - you'll be around 120%.
That means you can skip some things and still be ok. That also assumes the goblin weapons like a dogslicer are worthless (even when masterwork).
Honestly based on a guess (by your level and # of sessions) so far you are right on track - I won't spoil anything further other than to say you should start to find some stuff if you are playing the AP as written.
There are things in the AP that make up for the lack of loot in the beginning - free food and lodging (assuming you weren't making enemies of the town.)
You could try pushing your status as heroes in the town to get some discounted or even free basic supplies - through a bit of rollplaying - it certainly wouldn't hurt to ask your neighbors for some assistance :)
Honestly, if your GM is being rough on you just take it at face value and accept that you might be playing the game on Hard Mode. Things will turn to crap if you worry about him being fair behind his back, especially if you get your other players talking about the same thing. Thank the man for running the game and prepare for some tough fights.
no pain no gain, son
the difference between 15 and 25 point buy isn't as extreme as one thinks. the main difference, is that your dump stats aren't as low, not that your primary stats are higher.
and not every classes gear requirements are equal.
rise of the runelords, as i remember, was an extremely wizard centric AP by the start of the second half.
it's not that your party will be a little overgeared, it's that your wizard will be enjoying a vast majority of the loot while everyone else is drastically undergeared in comparison.
even if you sell the goblin gear for it's proper resale value (including the worthless stuff), cut both ears off each goblin for the doubled bounty, kill the sandpoint devil and loot everything in it's layer and take everything, even if it is nailed to the ground (Craft. Carpentry for the win). the party won't have enough resources to enjoy anywhere near as much loot as the wizard. (if you have a wizard).
80% of the loot in the second half is wizard exclusive stuff. spellbooks, arcane spell recipes that only benefit wizards, various items that allow a wizard to overcome thier weaknesses, and magical enhancements that require a wizard to pull off. at least, if you don't wish to penalize your crafting checks.
you pretty much need a wizard, though a sorcerer with a ridiculously high UMD and Spellcraft might do the trick too.