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I've read some other cheating threads, but I didn't find any answers that I found suitable with this particular problem.
So I have a player that cheats. Currently, he cheats in the following ways:
1) He uses his Ninja Ki power more times per day than he can use.
2) He uses his sneak attack against concealed targets (when I forget), even though he should know the rules (he's been reminded many times before).
3) He even tries to do full attacks each and every round, even when moving more than 5'. I'm not sure if he's being unintentionally dense, but it's strange that someone with a PHD can't understand a basic concept like this after years.
Basically, if I forget some limitation or a rule (and it benefits him), he'll just play with everything to his advantage. He has done this for... 20 years.
In the past, he's also cheated on dice rolls and other things, although he hasn't done that lately (according to the other players).
I think the typical answer would be "kick him out of your game" and I'd do that, but he's one of my best friends (and is otherwise a fun person to be around).
However, it really *&^*(^ annoys me when he cheats on something as obvious as his Ki powers and I hate babysitting him and auditing everything he does. It's distracting.
So I'm asking if anyone else has had this problem and resolved it in a good way? Any advice is appreciated. We started RPGing about 2 years ago after a 10 year hiatus, and this is really bothering me. I hate cheating!
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I think the typical answer would be "kick him out of your game" and I'd do that, but he's one of my best friends (and is otherwise a fun person to be around).
Actually, the best answer (and blessedly the most common) would be: "Talk to him directly about this."
And that's what I recommend.
Some of the things, like the ki points, could be handled by using tokens or counters for each point and having him physically hand you the token. But without talking to him about your concerns first, this will come off as passive-aggressive at best.
You have been friends for 20 years. I'll bet your friendship is strong enough to weather a discussion about how his cheating bothers you.
Every time he does it, make him forfeit the current and the next turn he'd get.
He'll either get bored and leave of his own volition or wise up quick.
I notice at my table that people who have played a very long time (mostly 2nd edition) often are used to playing fast and loose with the rules. They believe that the rules for 3.X and later editions are too complicated and dense -- but then even for 2nd edition they'll quickly throw out the rulebook if they don't exactly understand why a rule works a certain way. And they love to pounce on any GM's lack of rule knowledge -- always trying to bend the situation to their whim.
I just want to play the game according to the rules. . . that's all.
But to address your problem -- nope, you're going to have to babysit his @$# forever. Maybe (if you're lucky) you can ask him to use his PhD reading capability to actually *READ* the player's guide. I imagine that would help out immensely.
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Every time he pulls some sore of cheat have a new enemy appear who has all the same powers/feats/traits/etc that your friend does. Just for flair make sure he has a goatee and is of opposing Alignment. He should also have a big number "1" on his chest or helmet.
Then have this new foe do the exact same actions that your buddy does. If there is any complaint, use the exact same excuses that you hear week after week. If the cheating continues you can bring in "2" then "3" or even multiples at once.
It'll be like the Wickersham Brothers......
I have a player who rolls his dice but then will grab it just as it finishes rolling and call it out loud. If you ask to see the roll he places it on the table, usually with a fifteen or higher pointing up. Call him out on it and he has a fit about not being trusted. After a year of this I banned him... only for my other players and friends demand he be allowed back despite how much he cheated and argued with everyone. So hopefully this will not happen to you.
Talk to your friend and I am sure we will listen, and if not at least you don't have to put up with I have to.
Back in the mid-90's my DM was convinced that a player had a weighted dice (he did roll ALOT of 20s but how to know for sure?).
One day he forgot his d20 at the DM's house. We show up next week and the DM presents us with a irregular, flat, red disc. He had melted the d20 down.
My friend laughed and used it for years afterwards as a coaster. He also still rolled alot of d20s.
If you are out there Jeff, keep your THAC0 up and your head down......
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I don't really care for the round-about ways of tackling stuff like this, because it avoids the problem.
1st Step: Talk to him out of game. Try to be non-accusatory, just be like "Hey, just remember than you can't make full attacks after a movement" and "Hey, I think you might have forgotten that you can't sneak attack a monster who has concealment"
2nd Step: Remind him above table if he continues to do it. If he moves and tries to full-round attack, stop him and tell him he can't do that. Have the rule on-hand to avoid taking up table time.
The fudging is a bit more difficult: For the Ki, I suggest making a note of his character's Ki pool and keeping track of his use of Ki. If he runs out, and then continues to use Ki, ask him how he's doing that. If he says that he's got Ki, say something like "Well, I have you using X Ki points already today, how did you manage to get that extra Ki"
If you want to make it look like you're not singling him out, keep track of the resources of other party members (Things like Smite Evil and Wildshapes).
As a middle ground option between do nothing and kick him out, give him an ultimatum. If he keeps abusing the ki points he'll lose them. Just remove the ability from his character. Everytime he tries to full attack when it's not an option he loses 100xp.
Now this may seem a little extreme but I take cheating very seriously. I've done similar with a player a few times. He was in a bad habit of misusing key abilities of classes he was playing. It started with lay on hands, he'd pop it every other round and heal more points than he could heal in a day each time(3.5 version)so I just plain took it away. He said it was the only thing that made pally worth playing so retired the char and switched to a monk where he tried to do the same damn thing. This happened a few times with breaks in between of playing a fighter. Even playing a boring old fighter he'd still make me take away random feats that even after having them explained to him 2-3 times with a warning to use them right or lose em.
Your player will either get his act together and keep proper tabs on his abilities or he will lose them to learn his lesson a few times. The player I tried this with was either too dense or too stubborn to take a hint and kept on trying to game the system. I eventually kicked him out of the game, right in the middle of a session because it was so bad. He tried to argue it until I stated he was hit with a god-strike 27 times, once for every diety he had pissed off with his antics, and told him not to bother making a new character because he wasn't welcome at my table any longer. Sometimes it sucks but it has to be done. In my case he wasn't a close friend and didn't even meaningfully contribute to the game around his cheating either.
Asta
PSY
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I think some players will consider anything the GM/DM doesn't call them out on, or that that GM/DM doesn't seem to fully grasp, as potential fair game for getting one over on them and their devious GM'y omnipotent machinations.
As others said, talk to him. Explain that you find it hard to think about the rules for his character and that you feel he forgets them a lot. Maybe he feels the same way. Try to come up with a solution together. (Like the tokens for the ki points, and a system to counter the benefits he gets from his faults.)He'll be more open to disadvantages if you discuss it with him.
Serious Response:
Give him poker chips or tokens to use as Ki points and have him give them to you as he uses them. Talk to him out of game about it as he is your friend of 20+ years and tell him to knock it off or his character will suffer drastic in-game consequences!
Funny Response:
Start a slap-bet with him in which you bet him that he cheats too much. If he doesn't cheat for a year then you allow him to slap you, but every time he cheats you get to slap him!
My thoughts on the matters of dice rolling and resource fudging.
1) As far as rules go I look at that as being the DM's job. If the DM forgets a rule, even when I am that DM, the the advantage goes to the players. Dms already have the omnipotent power of God at the table, so stealing a small advantage here or their isn't much of a big deal to me. (Again this expectation applies even when I am DMing.)
2) As far as cheating on dice rolls or what not that is usually handled as me having control of the dice. The players call out actions and I roll the dice in the open applying the bonuses from their character sheets, that are also out of the open. I also apply this rule to my monster as well, no rolling behind DM screens all rolls in the open with the raw number bonuses from the monsters able to be known to the party on a successful monster knowledge check.
As far as your situation I would simply talk to him. No need to be rude about it just inform him that you do not appreciate cheating at the table, and would like it if he did not fudge his rolls or try to grab an advantage.
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I should probably also mention that I've had discussions with him about this before, specifically in game. But then he argues that I didn't count the number of Ki used properly... which is bullshit. Especially when the other players back me up on it.
But sometimes I don't notice (how much he's used) or other problems until 2-3 rounds later, and by then it's to late to retcon everything. So he gets away with stuff.
Luckily, he's playing a ninja and not a druid or other spellcaster and it's pretty easy to keep track of his Ki.
I'm telling you, use something that he can't mark off on and/or fudge on paper. Tokens, rocks, pennies, poker chips, or anything else that you can come up with to designate as Ki points pool and he hands them to you as he uses them. When he rests, then he gets back the used "points", this will solve your problem (as long as he doesn't bring extras in his pocket!).
For other things if he is cheating, you do it back to him in-game and see how he likes it. Purposely single him out in various ways that you wouldn't normally do until he knocks it off. Basically in-game karma coming around to bite him in the arse!
The simplest answer is to institute a few table rules.
1) It is a players responsibility to know the rules. If they consistantly play incorrectly, wether on purpose or not, they are causing issues at the table that can and will hurt the game, therefore those found not playing according to the rules properly will be assessed penalties such as lost or reduced experience.
2) Evey player, when doing their actions each round, are required to declare what they are doing BY ACTION, every round.
Example 1: Bob the barbarians turn comes up on initiative. Bob says: As a full round action I charge the ogre. As a free action I use quick draw to draw my greatsword before I start the charge. I am using power attack.
Example 2: Egon the Wizards turn comes up on initiative. Egon says: As a move action I draw my wand of fireballs, as a standard action I activate my wand and fire a fireball to here, as a swift action I cast a Quickened Invisibility on myself, as a free action I take a five foot step to here.
If they declare incorrectly then the other players or GM should catch it. It also gets everyone into the habit of knowing what actions are used and how. IF they do not specifically declare they are doing something and use the appropriate resource and action in the declaration then they have not done it. Period.
3) A player must clearly state when they are done in a round. Once they say so they are 'locked in' and cannot then remember something and go back and change anything. The next initiative count is up and too bad you forgot something.
As for limited resources, if your friend is using more ki points than he has per day then you need to keep track of them as well. At the start of every game day make sure your both on the same track with expendible resources as your players and as they use them, note them on the note pad make sure you make clear to them that they are expending the resource and that you have noted it. When they run out according to YOUR total them they are out. Period, no arguments allowed.
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If you want to make it look like you're not singling him out, keep track of the resources of other party members (Things like Smite Evil and Wildshapes).
Just keeping track of his Ki is distracting enough, GMs have a lot of shit to look after. I can't imagine keeping track of everyone's dailies. Honestly, everyone's a grown up, I just want to trust everyone and run the game.
At first I wasn't tracking his Ki, but then I noticed he used 5 points in a day when he only had 3.
Then I started tracking, which is why I know he's making mistakes or cheating. But then we have an argument about how many he's used. Also, sometimes I forget to track them. I would like to not track them at all.
I'm somewhat confused as to how he's making full attacks after moving. If I'm reading this correctly, you're the GM correct? Just say "no, you moved, you can't do that." and it's done.
Yes and I do that at least once per game! He just doesn't get it. When other people try to explain it to him, he gets mad. Luckily, it's so obvious that he never gets away with it. It's just annoying that the same rule problem comes up again and again. I think I'm just going to force him to read the chapter on attacks, embarrassing or not.
After that, I think I'll bring out the chips like several people suggested.
I think some players will consider anything the GM/DM doesn't call them out on, or that that GM/DM doesn't seem to fully grasp, as potential fair game for getting one over on them and their devious GM'y omnipotent machinations.
Yes, and the other players are a little like that too. They see the game as GM vs player (we had a discussion about that). They don't cheat but they only correct me when it's in their favor also.
I have one player that reminds me of things, and he's not always there (and misses things himself). Usually I don't make many mistakes, but sometimes I have off nights when I don't prepare enough. And I always think of the mistakes afterwards, anyone else do that?
We're playing an AP where everyone is the same level, so XP penalties won't work.
I am probably going to talk to everyone about helping me use the correct rules when I forget. The problem is, what is their incentive? I think I'd rather use a carrot than a stick to motivate them.
I have some friends who I like and are normally fun to be around, but who I find insufferable at the gaming table. We don't play in the same RPG group anymore, and like each other much better. It sounds as though this may be the necessary solution in your situation. If he chooses not to stop cheating, let him know that you want to maintain your friendship, but that you feel that your gaming styles have become to different to remain fun. If he isn't willing to maintain the friendship unless you allow him to cheat at your gaming table, then he is a huge jerk who is really no friend of yours. That would suck, and I'm sorry if that happens, but hopefully your 20 years of friendship will mean more to him than that. Best of luck.
I would track his KI points secretly. WHen he went oer I would ask him if he is sure he want sot go invisible(or whatnot). Then his character wastes his standard or move action try to activiate inviisbilty and fails. I would just watch him like a hawk and when he tries to do things his character can not make it difficult for him. As a DM you shoudl be watching your players movements for
Cheating wrecks the game. If I am playing and another player is cheating then all the fun is drained out of my game. Keep that in mind when he cheats he wrecks other players games as well.
In PFS I have seen Venture Captains cheat. They roll the die off their books and if it is a roll they do not like say it fell on the table and then reroll. The sad part is almost every time the die falls off their books, the 20s and high rolls they keep and the lows they reroll.
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If you know this guy cheats, and has for 20 years, why are you trusting him?
I was trusting him until he started making blatant mistakes. So now I'm not trusting him again, but I want to trust everyone because it's a major headache when I can't.
Like I said, he's a great guy outside of the cheating thing and one of my best friends. Dam, now I feel like a wife trying to change her husband. lol.
I've considered kicking him and our friendship would still be fine, but spare time is hard to come by these days, any time I can spend with my friends is valued. Hopefully some of you can relate.
Talking to him is going to be awkward, but I guess it has to be done. He gets defensive about stuff like this.
I would call him out during the game politely so he can not defend himself. When caught red handed he will have a hard time defending himself.
I would say come you have a PHD you know a full movement you can nto full attack. You have been playing for how many years and you can not keep track of your KI points? After you keep rubbing it in you can get harsher on it.
I feel as a DM you must be a judge on the rules and ensure fair play. I watch every players movement and through what square.
If you know this guy cheats, and has for 20 years, why are you trusting him?I was trusting him until he started making blatant mistakes. So now I'm not trusting him again, but I want to trust everyone because it's a major headache when I can't.
Like I said, he's a great guy outside of the cheating thing and one of my best friends. Dam, now I feel like a wife trying to change her husband. lol.
I've considered kicking him and our friendship would still be fine, but spare time is hard to come by these days, any time I can spend with my friends is valued. Hopefully some of you can relate.
Talking to him is going to be awkward, but I guess it has to be done. He gets defensive about stuff like this.
I can definitely relate, but as someone very wise (and busy) once told me: it's not about *having* time, it's about *making* time. You'll probably have to give up time you usually spend on something else in order to have that time to spend with your friend. You might have to decide what it's worth to you to maintain that friendship. Personally, if you decide not to invite him to your game in the future, I suggest making plans for some other regular activity together, such as going out for a beer on the first Friday of every month, or something similar.
You can't change your friend, but you can choose which parts of your life to include him in.
In regards to overspending ki or any other resources, use tokens. You wanna ninja vanish? Pony up that token. You don't have a token then you don't vanish.
In regards to move/full attack give him a card with a checklist/flowchart... Did you move? Yes. Did you move more than one square? No. Full Attack!
GNOME
Reminds me of a guy I used to play with. He'd always bend rules or remember them to his advantage, and to make it worse, he'd always point out why the rules say someone else couldn't do something to screw them over. I remember one time at 5th level he claimed he crit for something like 25 points of damage over the maximum he could possibly deal. A friend of mine was DMing and he just took it in stride and didn't bother asking how (it was 3.5 so the dm's explanation was that the cheating guy would probably just throw out a lot of bs about misc feats from splat books that if checked upon we'd find didn't exist or he "remembered wrong"; the dm just didn't care enough to call him)... and then he'd just mark down a reasonable damage figure off the monster's hp if it looked like he actually had hit. He never actually told the cheating guy that, but did tell everyone else after the guy had left before everyone else one day.
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Come on guys, seriously are so many of you 'falling' for the oh you need to talk to him, show him the rules, ext ext.
This guy 'knows' exactly what he is doing. He knows he is cheating, and when confronted he reacts just like soo many other liers and cheaters, he gets all defensive and mad, like how dare you question my integrity.
This guy is a cheater, he knows it, he will keep doing it unless it becomes to much to maintain. Like the foam dice.
Well, I would seriously state at the begining of all your sessions from now on, if you find anyone (and look at him when you say this) cheating, using resources they dont have, that you Will doct hefty xp, where they might at best get only 25% of it, but you will keep raising challenge ratings normal, and mention that this will make a cheaters character more likely to die. So it is up to the players to show the gm respect and not try to cheat him.
So even if he 'gets' away with things you described, that is fine, but he gets away with it but gains literally 0 experience. If he says it was a mistake, tell him that he needs to be more careful then because mistakes cost him dearly in xp. But let him know this at the beggining of the session. And then back it up.
The problem I find with habitual cheaters is they also tend to have a good bluff.
I was cheated by a jeweler recently (who shaved gold off a ring he resized). When I called him on it he was very good at denying any wrongdoing and deflecting the conversation away from anything that might force him to admit he did do wrong. He 'returned' the gold in protest 'to save his reputation', and was so good in his act that when I walked out the door I felt like I'd cheated him, a hard-working, honest tradesman. If it wasn't for my familiarity with the ring (my spouse had made it, and weighted it many times), I wouldn't have been certain that it was actually missing 1/6th of its weight, or $140 worth of pure gold. Even then, because of his act, it wasn't until I had talked to multiple people that I shook the feeling of being in the wrong.
Now cheating in Pathfinder doesn't cost you any money or anything else of monetary value, but habitual cheaters know what they are doing, despite any protest or other act they might put up. Your friend getting angry is an act, plain and simple. If the cheating is getting to you or the other players, then it's ruining your fun and defeating the purpose of playing a rules oriented game.
Whatever you have to do to get him to not cheat, don't be fooled by any act he puts on in protest.
You can always turn the tables on him. If you know he's out of Ki, attack him with a ki draining monster that gets significantly stronger for every point of ki it absorbes. After he gets hit, ask him how much Ki he has left, then tell him it got drained and the monster appears much more powerful because of it. This might be a fun one-time trick, but ultimately you have to eliminate the cheating, as cheating back as the DM will ultimately only destroy the game for everyone.
Tokens for resources.
I hand players a laminated card to fill out.
[__] MY SWIFT ACTION IS: __________
[__] MY MOVE ACTION IS: ___________ [_] 5' Step
[__] MY STND ACTION IS: ___________ [_] Full Attack! 5' Step
FULL ATTACK BONUSES ARE: +____/+____/+____/+____/+____/+____/+____/+____
FULL ATTACK DAMAGE DICE: __+__/__+__/__+__/__+__/__+__/__+__/__+__/__+__
I have players fill in the bottom two rolls with permanent marker (erases with dry erase) and fill out the rest with wet erase.
I tell them that I expect that card to be filled out before their initiative is called in combat. If they're new, they can ask questions. If they ask questions, either I, or a person I designate, is the official Scourer of Tomes.
I also tell people to roll their dice to the person to their left/right at the table, to roll all attack rolls and damage rolls at the same time, and to have the person next to them read the dice aloud.
I've read some other cheating threads, but I didn't find any answers that I found suitable with this particular problem.
So I have a player that cheats. Currently, he cheats in the following ways:
1) He uses his Ninja Ki power more times per day than he can use.
2) He uses his sneak attack against concealed targets (when I forget), even though he should know the rules (he's been reminded many times before).
3) He even tries to do full attacks each and every round, even when moving more than 5'. I'm not sure if he's being unintentionally dense, but it's strange that someone with a PHD can't understand a basic concept like this after years.
Basically, if I forget some limitation or a rule (and it benefits him), he'll just play with everything to his advantage. He has done this for... 20 years.
In the past, he's also cheated on dice rolls and other things, although he hasn't done that lately (according to the other players).
I think the typical answer would be "kick him out of your game" and I'd do that, but he's one of my best friends (and is otherwise a fun person to be around).
However, it really *&^*(^ annoys me when he cheats on something as obvious as his Ki powers and I hate babysitting him and auditing everything he does. It's distracting.
So I'm asking if anyone else has had this problem and resolved it in a good way? Any advice is appreciated. We started RPGing about 2 years ago after a 10 year hiatus, and this is really bothering me. I hate cheating!
Just because people are good friends that does not make them good tablemates, but if you really want to keep him, then have the other players help you out with the rules.
As for the ki powers make him mark it off every time he uses one. With a PhD I am sure he can afford a miniature note pad. When he goes over the limit tell him to check the note pad.
As for the SA just run the bad guys as being immune to SA unless you say otherwise. I will go into detail. The default assumption can be that they are immune to SA. Once you determine they do not have concealment then SA can be said to work. That requires him to ask you before applying it.