I'd just give them the opposite of Augment Summoning until the player can pronounce 'eidolon' correctly without coaching. I have yet to hear anyone in my PFS lodge say it properly, and some of them won't even pronounce it consistently from one minute to the next. I would think summoning takes a bit more care than that. :P
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It is unfair without a save. It is probably better to address it in a different manner though.
1. Make sure the build is legal.
2. Make sure the other players are playing their classes well.
3. Look at other potential issues.
It is kind of pointless to play a class if the GM is just going to nerf you. I would rather be told to play something else.
I would say go for it. It is a legal choice and requires a melee touch. Seems to me that even after you apply the condition your character will have problems surviving the encounter. I don't think I have ever made the choice to step into melee range as a wizard.
Depending on the level of play my choice is to go after eidolons with dismissal. An evil GM would equip the main melee baddy with a dismissal spell-storing weapon.
I'd just give them the opposite of Augment Summoning until the player can pronounce 'eidolon' correctly without coaching. I have yet to hear anyone in my PFS lodge say it properly, and some of them won't even pronounce it consistently from one minute to the next. I would think summoning takes a bit more care than that. :P
So which of the seven pronunciations I've found so far is correct? The byzantine ones sound fun to annoy people with (roughly Eetholon).
Am I missing something?
Do people hate Summoners for some reason?
The Eidolon is supposed to be in the limelight; the Summoner is supposed to be the supporting buffer in the back. If you're just looking at the Eidolon as a "glorified NPC", as if it were a familiar or animal companion or something, you're not understanding the Summoner class at all.
They are easy to make decent...so a lot of casual groups see them as overpowered.
Ah.
I just like the idea of them, so I was wondering why I've seen people on here complaining about them.
I like the fact that, as a friend described them, you can be heavily skill-based and still be pretty good in combat. From what I could tell though his Eidolon was good in combat, but still not nearly as good their solely combat focused members.
Though I guess I can see how that could be considered borderline overpowered.
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I am a little surprised my two summoner PCs in society have done so well. Both the summoner itself and the eidolon have poor saves across the board. The summoner has little to no use for wisdom so they are unlikely to pump it making will fair to slightly good with resistance items. Fort and reflex are both poor progression. The eidolon lacks full hit dice so they do not progress their saves as fast as a class. The two of them have to share item slots so only one of them can wear the very cost effective cloak of resistance.
For the OP's question, I think that effect is fair if, in the story, some sort of villain knows about the PC's, studies them, and deliberately recruits Banishment Abjurationists to take them down. Even then, it will get old if used every encounter, though.
If the PCs just randomly keep stumbling into hostile Banishers? That's just nonsense.
It also depends on how good the player is at optimizing, and playing a character.
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I'd just give them the opposite of Augment Summoning until the player can pronounce 'eidolon' correctly without coaching. I have yet to hear anyone in my PFS lodge say it properly, and some of them won't even pronounce it consistently from one minute to the next. I would think summoning takes a bit more care than that. :P
I pronounce eidolon as:
<Que Digimon music>
Digimon!
Digital Monsters!
Digimon are the champions!
Digimon!
Digital Monsters!
Digimon are the champions!
Change into Digital Champions to save the Digital
WORLD!
Digivolve into
CHAMPIONS!
Digivolve into
ULTIMATE!
Digimon!
Digital Monsters!
Digimon are the champions!
I'll agree w/ Master Yang's post regarding the question by Master Insaneo: Should you use such a spell in every encounter then it'll be unfair to that player.
It's like saying "Oh it's Superman....again!! Quick, get out your kryptonite!"
Regarding forehead glowing "slave" rune...meh. That maybe a superfluous requirement. It's not too hard to wear a bandana, hoodie/cloak to "hide" the rune.
Otherwise just make the BBEG have a Digimo...er <ahem> eidolon of his/her own then you can have a BAKUGAN BRAWL!
Wait! Whaaaat????
That'll be 2 cp please,
Rom ;p
I wish they were wore like the Astral Constructs Psions had, or even more like animal companions more powerful.
The Eidolon is supposed to be in the limelight; the Summoner is supposed to be the supporting buffer in the back. If you're just looking at the Eidolon as a "glorified NPC", as if it were a familiar or animal companion or something, you're not understanding the Summoner class at all.
It's meant to be the limelight of the class, not of the party. Most complaints about summoners come from when it's doing the latter.
Am I missing something?
Do people hate Summoners for some reason?
A lot of what has been said above is dead on.
But I also think it is because as a class, it is very mechanically complex, thus requiring a good to great or better knowledge and mastery of the systems for the whole game. It also requires a DM that can either trust the player to not try and break the campaign or be able to audit the eidolon frequently to make sure it is build right.
While I love the class, I don't allow it in my games unless the player has good systems mastery and has demonstrated it, shown an ability to share the spotlight even if that means dumbing things down a bit, and is willing to accept that any shifts he wants to make in an eidolons evolutionary pool needs to have its own separate sheet that I can double check before the game so it doesn't bog down gameplay if he shifts his points.
Restrictive? Maybe, but as I said, incredibly mechanical class, using large amounts of the game system. I have yet to have a player complain about the restrictions though.
And yeah, I agree wraithstrike, I wish they were closer to astral constructs myself, although I think that would step on my shapers toes...
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This should have a save associated with it. If it does its just fine. But as others have said is probably best not to handle this in a passive aggressive way.
The biggest problem with the summoner (read: eidolon) is its flexibility. Every class, even the fighter has some of its class features that dont represent offensive or defensive ability (such as bravery). There is nothing that requires an eidolon to take any such abilities. For anyone who has issues with the power of the summoner, a simple restriction will fix the power problem. x% of evolution points may not be spent on evolutions that provide offensive or deffensive capability. The MUST take things like skilled, or gills, or tremorsense etc. If some portion of their evolution points goes into such things the class is just fine. The fact that there are very obvious offensive/defensive options to put all the metaphorical eggs of the class into, means it's overpowered. If it had to take a few side track evolutions, the class wouldnt be a problem.
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Problem with the Eidolon (if it actually is a problem) is that due to the mechanical complexity already mentioned it is an extremely game-able feature. What I mean by game-able is that there is a huge variety in the power of Eidolon's that you can make. If you have poor system mastery you can make a very ineffective Eidolon, while if you have good system mastery you can make an Eidolon that can feel OP (and arguably is). I liken the Eidolon creation system to the Race Creation system, it is a system that was created to allow you to make almost anything you can imagine, not keep you from making something OP. Just like the Race Creation system in the hands of a player can lead to OP races, it can lead to OP Eidolons.
I have a Synthesist Summoner with a level dip of Rogue in a Way of the Wicked game that has the best AC, the highest Hit Points, generally does the most damage, has by the far the best skills and has spells, the best mobility, and the second best saving throws behind only the Anti-paladin (in a party of six). Arguably he is the most effective character in the party and in some respects could solo a good portion of the encounters, though he is pretty good about not hogging the spot light. Having put him through Hero Labs the character is RAW legal, and he has been dominant since about level 3. The player involved has great system mastery and he put a lot of research into making his character. This is the result of having an extremely game-able class.
While it is true that all classes benefit from system mastery, I don't think any other class benefits to the same degree that the Summoner does, and this is especially true of the Synthesist as it opens entirely new avenues for min-maxing.
My advice is to let things play out like they reasonably would. I have no doubt that in my game the Synthesist will become a target of the opposition for entirely in game reasons. His power will not escape notice and those that can will take steps to neutralize it, which will create opportunities for other characters to help save his bacon. However it is vital that this not happen all the time or even frequently. The player put the time and effort into making a strong character and they should be able to enjoy that, the trick is to make sure their enjoyment doesn't ruin the enjoyment of everyone else. That takes careful management of counters on your part, and restraint on the players part. As with all things the best thing you can do is talk to the player about it.
Well, the archetypes for summoners don't help the issue really. Once you add those into the mix it is pretty easy to take the class from an upper tier character to a top tier setting a curve character.
While the base class itself isn't hugely imbalanced, it is easy to game the system with. Some of the archetypes make it easier/more gamable. There is a reason I'll only let folks who can play well with others play one.
As to the ops question...
Do you really feel like you need a hard counter like that to the player in question? And I do mean hard counter. You are essentially taking his eidolon out of the fight with no save. Outside of preventing you hitting with it, nothing he can do except try and remove the conditions.
If it feels like the guy is disrupting the game/hogging the spotlight/ruining others fun, have you tried talking to them about it?
And yes, I'm assuming your asking this because it is an issue in a game you are running...
They are easy to make decent...so a lot of casual groups see them as overpowered.Am I missing something?
Do people hate Summoners for some reason?
I have to agree. In an optimized group Summoners are decent characters. In a group with less then optimal builds a Summoner can really take over, because its really hard to make a BAD Summoner. Add in the fact that in alot of those groups the Summoner has built his pet outside what is legal it just gets worse(its easy to get it wrong if you dont pay attention).
This should have a save associated with it. If it does its just fine. But as others have said is probably best not to handle this in a passive aggressive way.
The biggest problem with the summoner (read: eidolon) is its flexibility. Every class, even the fighter has some of its class features that dont represent offensive or defensive ability (such as bravery). There is nothing that requires an eidolon to take any such abilities. For anyone who has issues with the power of the summoner, a simple restriction will fix the power problem. x% of evolution points may not be spent on evolutions that provide offensive or deffensive capability. The MUST take things like skilled, or gills, or tremorsense etc. If some portion of their evolution points goes into such things the class is just fine. The fact that there are very obvious offensive/defensive options to put all the metaphorical eggs of the class into, means it's overpowered. If it had to take a few side track evolutions, the class wouldnt be a problem.
How is Bravery not a defensive ability? A bonus to saves sure looks like a defensive ability to me. And what about archetypes that trade it away; is the Armor Master broken because all of its features are purely defensive (or offensive for some bonus feats)? Would you say the thing that balances Wizards out is that their Scribe Scroll ability doesn't directly aid their spellcasting, unlike all their other class features? Meanwhile, the Eidolon does receive abilities like Bond Senses, Darkvision, and - if Bravery doesn't count as a defensive ability - Evasion, Improved Evasion, and Devotion.
A lot of evolutions like Blindsight are regularly not picked because they cost too much and don't do enough, but the argument that Eidolons are broken because they can spend all their evolution points on offensive and defensive bonuses doesn't hold any more water than the argument that fighters are broken because they can spend all their bonus feats on offensive and defensive bonuses.
This should have a save associated with it. If it does its just fine. But as others have said is probably best not to handle this in a passive aggressive way.
The biggest problem with the summoner (read: eidolon) is its flexibility. Every class, even the fighter has some of its class features that dont represent offensive or defensive ability (such as bravery). There is nothing that requires an eidolon to take any such abilities. For anyone who has issues with the power of the summoner, a simple restriction will fix the power problem. x% of evolution points may not be spent on evolutions that provide offensive or deffensive capability. The MUST take things like skilled, or gills, or tremorsense etc. If some portion of their evolution points goes into such things the class is just fine. The fact that there are very obvious offensive/defensive options to put all the metaphorical eggs of the class into, means it's overpowered. If it had to take a few side track evolutions, the class wouldnt be a problem.
How is Bravery not a defensive ability? A bonus to saves sure looks like a defensive ability to me. And what about archetypes that trade it away; is the Armor Master broken because all of its features are purely defensive (or offensive for some bonus feats)? Would you say the thing that balances Wizards out is that their Scribe Scroll ability doesn't directly aid their spellcasting, unlike all their other class features? Meanwhile, the Eidolon does receive abilities like Bond Senses, Darkvision, and - if Bravery doesn't count as a defensive ability - Evasion, Improved Evasion, and Devotion.
A lot of evolutions like Blindsight are regularly not picked because they cost too much and don't do enough, but the argument that Eidolons are broken because they can spend all their evolution points on offensive and defensive bonuses doesn't hold any more water than...
Feats are not equivalent to evolutions. Evolutions are more powerful with much less restrictions. If feats were something only a Fighter got it would be closer, but even still evolutions are more powerful in the context of a summoner and their eidolon.
"Eidolons are too strong because their abilities are overpowered" is not the same argument as "Eidolons are too strong because they don't have enough periphery non-combat abilities".
Problem with the Eidolon (if it actually is a problem) is that due to the mechanical complexity already mentioned it is an extremely game-able feature. What I mean by game-able is that there is a huge variety in the power of Eidolon's that you can make. If you have poor system mastery you can make a very ineffective Eidolon, while if you have good system mastery you can make an Eidolon that can feel OP (and arguably is). I liken the Eidolon creation system to the Race Creation system, it is a system that was created to allow you to make almost anything you can imagine, not keep you from making something OP. Just like the Race Creation system in the hands of a player can lead to OP races, it can lead to OP Eidolons.
I have a Synthesist Summoner with a level dip of Rogue in a Way of the Wicked game that has the best AC, the highest Hit Points, generally does the most damage, has by the far the best skills and has spells, the best mobility, and the second best saving throws behind only the Anti-paladin (in a party of six). Arguably he is the most effective character in the party and in some respects could solo a good portion of the encounters, though he is pretty good about not hogging the spot light. Having put him through Hero Labs the character is RAW legal, and he has been dominant since about level 3. The player involved has great system mastery and he put a lot of research into making his character. This is the result of having an extremely game-able class.
While it is true that all classes benefit from system mastery, I don't think any other class benefits to the same degree that the Summoner does, and this is especially true of the Synthesist as it opens entirely new avenues for min-maxing.
My advice is to let things play out like they reasonably would. I have no doubt that in my game the Synthesist will become a target of the opposition for entirely in game reasons. His power will not escape notice and those that can will take steps to neutralize it, which will create opportunities for...
I don't know if it was fixed in the newest update, but herolabs and eidolons did not get along perfectly. You might want to do a manual check.
With that aside eidolons are pretty nice. :)
Every time I start to make a Summoner character, I end up deciding, "No, this class works for an NPC, but doesn't play well as a PC."
Maybe I just lack the necessary system mastery to rock the Summoner. It's OK as half of a gestalt, but I really just don't see a single-classed Summoner surviving to 5th level in the typical campaigns in which I'm involved.
Then, too, I have not examined any of the archetypes; I kind of hate archetypes in general (I will, grudgingly, use the Rogue Poisoner archetype, since it's the ONLY way to get Poison Use before 6th level... ought to be a Feat for that, dammit).
Anyway, I fail to see what all the hubbub is about: I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to circumvent the Summoner/Eidolon... it seems pretty self-nerfing to me already. YMMV, I guess...
Every time I start to make a Summoner character, I end up deciding, "No, this class works for an NPC, but doesn't play well as a PC."
Maybe I just lack the necessary system mastery to rock the Summoner. It's OK as half of a gestalt, but I really just don't see a single-classed Summoner surviving to 5th level in the typical campaigns in which I'm involved.
Then, too, I have not examined any of the archetypes; I kind of hate archetypes in general (I will, grudgingly, use the Rogue Poisoner archetype, since it's the ONLY way to get Poison Use before 6th level... ought to be a Feat for that, dammit).
Anyway, I fail to see what all the hubbub is about: I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to circumvent the Summoner/Eidolon... it seems pretty self-nerfing to me already. YMMV, I guess...
Um there survivability is better than a basic wizard if you look at it from following perspective.
They can wear armor, they progress with 1d8 hps per level, they can surround them selves with bodyguards from level 1 on that can easily last an entire encounter, etc.
Eh I don't really see why people have such issues with summoners, the eidolon isn't really an more powerful than a druids animal companion (depending on choice of course). Sure its easier on the Summoner that his eidolon doesn't actually die, but the animal companion does start out at first level with more HP. Druids are also full casters, with better "out of the box" combat utility and spell utility.
Just about every OP thing I see people complain about summoners I've seen druids do better or just as good.
half orc (for the tattoo alt racial, and great axe prof, the natural summoner ones suck)
18
13
14
7
7
16
Great axe: 1d12+6, +4 to hit
10hp
Eidolon:
quadruped
claws
pounce
improved nat armor
2(1d4+2)+(1d6+2) +3 to hit, has power attack if wanted.
6 HP AC 16
Druid 1st level
Human (doesn't really need to be, druids have weapon restrictions outside of prof, so didn't need the half orc)
18
13
14
7
16
7
scythe 2d4+6 at +4 to hit
Animal companion (going with society legal)
Spinosaurus
No pounce obv, but has swim speed.
14HP AC 15
2(1d4+4)+(1d6+4) +5 to hit, power attack available.
Druid has better saves, and is a full caster with access to restricted medium armors and 3/4 BAB progression, and can channel summons. Has access to weapons in addition to the few desirable simple weapons. Gets unique class abilities as it levels up.
Summoner has the ability to summon as standard action (if his eidolon is gone) for longer than normal duration, is a 3/4 BAB/caster character, with full access to light armors. Has only simple weapon proficiency. The abilities that the summoner gets is pretty much just doing what he can already do better.
Summoners IMHO are tier 1.5-2.0 in terms of power level, I see no problem (for reference, wizards, druids, witches, clerics are in my 1.0 tier).
I guess what I'm trying to say is if you think the summoner is too OP and confusing, then maybe you should also restrict the druid. Then where does the house ruling end? You can make a ranger pet nearly as good with boon companion. Magus can be "abused" and are mechanically complex, same with inquisitors. Ninjas have unique abilities that trip up GMs and players. Monks get crazy abilities every level up, and there is so many archetypes its unrealistic for a GM to keep track.
As for the issue of player trust. I have a simple rule: I trust the players, but if they give reason to doubt, they will be audited, and if they have cheated they are gone with no appeal. I run a mostly public game so I can fill that seat before next session.
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generally the only real valid complaint I've seen about eidolons has been the synthesist summoner when he dumps his dex and str to 7 to boost his mental stats and stays always fused with the eidolon.
Any other complaints about them usually come from folks who just don't understand the game, or have someone playing it incorrectly to begin with.
generally the only real valid complaint I've seen about eidolons has been the synthesist summoner when he dumps his dex and str to 7 to boost his mental stats and stays always fused with the eidolon.
Any other complaints about them usually come from folks who just don't understand the game, or have someone playing it incorrectly to begin with.
Well the problem would be if you got rid of that feature, what would be the draw of Synthesist at all?
I was going to multiclass Synth until I realized it was a replacement instead of a boost, as I'd imagine would many who weren't built for In/Cha/Wis.
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the draw of the class to me is the fact that you can become a dragon, or iron man, or whatever you feel like creating with it.
my synthesist summoner is a flying dragon mount for the ranged character in our group... and he's a beast of a tank for the group as well.
The ability to dump stats, is not really the point of it, so much as "form of awesome summoned creature!" wonder twin powers activate!
It is unfair without a save. It is probably better to address it in a different manner though.
..Except that it's not. Anything applying will have to get next to that Eidolon, and risk being shredded by it before or after the touch attack. And the Eidolon will only be staggered, not blinded or somehing really harmful.
Summoner has the ability to summon as standard action (if his eidolon is gone) for longer than normal duration, is a 3/4 BAB/caster character, with full access to light armors. Has only simple weapon proficiency. The abilities that the summoner gets is pretty much just doing what he can already do better.
Summoners IMHO are tier 1.5-2.0 in terms of power level, I see no problem (for reference, wizards, druids, witches, clerics are in my 1.0 tier).
.
...And in your analysis of the summoner you leave out the eidolon, which, fom mid-level, can kill most things before combat has really started. Add to that the Summon Monster spells, and you know how overpowered this "Zookeeper" really is.
...And in your analysis of the summoner you leave out the eidolon, which, fom mid-level, can kill most things before combat has really started. Add to that the Summon Monster spells, and you know how overpowered this "Zookeeper" really is.
Summoner has the ability to summon as standard action (if his eidolon is gone) for longer than normal duration, is a 3/4 BAB/caster character, with full access to light armors. Has only simple weapon proficiency. The abilities that the summoner gets is pretty much just doing what he can already do better.
Summoners IMHO are tier 1.5-2.0 in terms of power level, I see no problem (for reference, wizards, druids, witches, clerics are in my 1.0 tier).
.
Druids are full casters, and thier pets are better
druid pets
1. have no sharing slots requirement
2. can wear armor
3. have more hit dice
4. are just as replaceable
5. come with a full caster master instead of a half caster
6. are swappable based on circumstances
Yeah, i left out the issue of eidolons because while the eidolon is customizable, with good choices you can just choose the right animal (more frequently than the summoner can swap evolutions). Or you can just wild shape into something crazy and laugh at the summoner.
Also, at mid level any well prepared well built damage dealer can kill most things (CR=level +/- a level or two) before combat really gets going. This is pretty much true at all levels too, including lvl 1.
I always get the feeling that people who complain about tier 2 classes being OP don't really have a grasp on the power level of the tier 1 classes.
spell levels aren't the only factor, there is also the issue of having the slots required to cast them.
the only difference between a d8 and a d10 is an average of 1 hit point per level. the AC due to that extra hit die is adding constitution bonus and such one extra time compared to the eidolon, this roughly evens out, but the animal companion is more resistant to spells with hit die based effects. ((such as hypnotic pattern))
a pouncing, flying, waterbreathing eidolon either costs you a 3rd level slot for 2 hours per level and a whole spell known, or a precious magic item slot you cannot fully benefit from. it also takes a lot of evolution points to catch up to the fly speed granted by the spell, or the fly speed of the slowest flying monsters (even more so).
I love how the argument in defense of the summoner has been to invoke a tier 1 class and say "this is worse. How can you say this is overpowered?"
And summoners more than any other class can boost up their tier pretty easily. Between an archetype, intelligent eidolon design, and the right spell selection, that can boost themselves up into the lower end of tier 1.
As far as animal companion vs eidolon...both have their strengths, both have their weaknesses. All in all, I personally don't think either one is better than the other.
I love how the argument in defense of the summoner has been to invoke a tier 1 class and say "this is worse. How can you say this is overpowered?"
And summoners more than any other class can boost up their tier pretty easily. Between an archetype, intelligent eidolon design, and the right spell selection, that can boost themselves up into the lower end of tier 1.
As far as animal companion vs eidolon...both have their strengths, both have their weaknesses. All in all, I personally don't think either one is better than the other.
The point of tiers is equal levels of optimization. The 1.5-2.0 was assuming smart optimization. The variance is due to archetypes (some summoners archetypes are better than others, and synth while powerful is a trap class due to action economy).
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Is it too harsh to use thison Eildons that are taking the limelight? Social reactions, having a glowing slave rune on the summoners head and playing second fiddle to a glorified npc isn't slowing the summoners down but this might be too harsh?
Banishment School
Associated School: Abjuration.
Replacement Powers: The following school powers replace the energy absorption power and the protective ward power of the abjuration school.
Unstable Bonds (Su): At 1st level, your touch can disrupt the bonds that hold a summoned or called creature on this plane. As a melee touch attack, you can cause a summoned or called creature to become shaken and staggered for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum 1). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.
I think you should use that skill as long as you are willing to follow up the Summoner nerf with:
On a non sarcastic note: Removing the MAIN class feature is always a poor solution. Always. Not even debatable.
This (Thanks StreamOfTheSky)
Better solutions:
And summoners more than any other class can boost up their tier pretty easily. Between an archetype, intelligent eidolon design, and the right spell selection, that can boost themselves up into the lower end of tier 1.
But why is this an issue? That just means they are somewhat as powerful as....
Wizards, Clerics, Oracles, Druids, Sorcerers, and Witches. 5 classes with as much or more power then a Summoner.
And thats just based on the Tier system... which has little to do with power. It has more to do with how versatile the class is. How many roles can it fill. DPR wise Tier one classes are usually some of the weakest. Your lower Tier (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, ect) are usually much better at dealing sustainable large amounts of damage.
The problem alot of people have with Summoners is the fact they are a high Tier (lots of versatility), AND have a High DPR much like the lower Tiers. But realistically they are far from the only one. Summoners are Tier 2 at best. Other High DPR Tier 2 or better include Magus, Inquisitor, Alchemist, and Druid.
So really there are plenty of other classes with the same or higher Tier and plenty of classes that can dish a similar amount of damage and have the same versatility. They are fine.
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Are the other players who are getting their spot light time stolen even trying?
Are they doing the same amount of homework the summoner?
Do they make all their design choices for no other reason than the thought it was cool?
Have they making the right choices tactically during the fights?
Does the dice favor the summoner over the others?
I have often been accused to playing too powerfully with low ranking classes like the Psychic Warrior and Duskblade/Warblade/Jade Pheonix Mage. I believe it is because:
-the time I put into the character design(I cherry pick feats, equipment, class choices like spells known from any source I can get my hands on, homework)
-how well I choose my actions(pay attention the whole time to better manage resources and know what can make the best impact at the current moment)
-playing them to the best of their ability(use every action/resource at their disposal at the right time)
Unfortunately, someone might call me an elitest with negative connotations. Really though, compare the above to who:
-never does homework beyond the CRB and never uses anything else
-never pays attention when it is not their turn
-or thinks the only options are full attack or charge
Who would steal the spotlight when it comes to the number crunching combats?
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Every time I start to make a Summoner character, I end up deciding, "No, this class works for an NPC, but doesn't play well as a PC."
Maybe I just lack the necessary system mastery to rock the Summoner. It's OK as half of a gestalt, but I really just don't see a single-classed Summoner surviving to 5th level in the typical campaigns in which I'm involved.
Then, too, I have not examined any of the archetypes; I kind of hate archetypes in general (I will, grudgingly, use the Rogue Poisoner archetype, since it's the ONLY way to get Poison Use before 6th level... ought to be a Feat for that, dammit).
Anyway, I fail to see what all the hubbub is about: I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to circumvent the Summoner/Eidolon... it seems pretty self-nerfing to me already. YMMV, I guess...
If the summoner can't make it to level 5 in your games, how the hell do wizards,sorcerers and witch do it?!?
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Wizards, Clerics, Oracles, Druids, Sorcerers, and Witches. 5 classes with as much or more power then a Summoner.None of those except for the big cat druid and potentially necromancers are as disruptively powerful as the summoner (although few people seem to understand the potential of necromancers in Pathfinder, they got a huge boost and a small nerf ... the nerf is irrelevant, just reapply command before it expires, but the ability to command any undead up to your HD is huge).
Everything else works relatively synergistically with the party ... it's the ones with pets which outshine martial melee PCs at their schtick which are the problem.
If your pets are outshining the melee, then the melee wasn't built well and your pet was. That is not an issue with the classes, it is an issue with the players system mastery.