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example...
Why does your summoner have more treasure then the fighter? You do realize that amulets of might fists costs more then double what normal weapon enhancements costs right? So that +2 amulet you have is a 20 grand piece of EQ that means you have 3500 left according to the WBL guidlines. And why are we starting at charge range with the good guys going first? Does this ALWAYS happen in your games? Hey lets see what happens when we give the fighter a straight up +5 greatsword and toss both against a critter that has DR 15/good/evil/lawful/chaos. Your anaylsis is very skewed.
Okay a straightforward two handed 7th level fighter and a straightforward quadraped 7th level Eidolon waling on a AC 19 monster, first round they have to charge
Eidolon : 14 + 2 (bonus) + 1 (level) +2 (evo) + 2 (enh) = 21 strength.
Relevant feats : power attack, INA(claws), weapon focus(claws)
Relevant evolutions : ability increase (2), gore (2), claws (1), rend (2), energy attack acid (2)
Relevant items : belt of giant strength +2, amulet of mighty fist shocking, boots of speed
Relevant buffs : extended GMF (through metamagic rod of extend), hasteTwo handed Fighter : 18 + 1 (level) + 2 (enh) = 21 strength.
Relevant feats : power attack, furious focus, weapon focus greatsword, weapon specialization greatsword
Relevant items : belt of giant strength +2, Greatsword +1 corrosive, cloak of fangs (for laughs)
Relevant buffs : hasteEidolon :
Attack bonus 6 + 5 (strength) +1 (enh) -2 (PA), +1 for claws WF and +2 for charge when applicable.
First round : (3*0.75+2*0.7)*(1.05*(3.5+5+1+4)+7) + 0.84*(3.5+7+1+4) = 90.3 (first part is natural attacks, second is rend ... chance of rend triggering is a binomial function which I did not write out fully)
Subsequent rounds : (3*0.65+2*0.6)*(1.05*(3.5+5+1+4)+7) + 0.72*(3.5+7+1+4) = 77.9Of course an average CR7 monster only has 70 HP, so it would likely have dropped on the first round.
Fighter :
Attack bonus 7 + 5 (strength) + 1 (weapon training) + 1 (WF) + 1 (enh), -2 for bite, -2 for power attack and +2 for charge when applicable
First round : 0.95*(1.05*(7+10+1+1+6+2)+3.5) = 30.3
Here is the problem ... 1/3 the damage ...
Subsequent rounds : 0.95*(1.05*(7+7+1+1+6+2)+3.5)+(0.85+0.6)*(1.05*(7+10+1+1+6+2)+3.5)+0.75*(3. 5+2) = 77.6
About tied due to the joke item.
I did this at 7 so the THF would have backswing ... at lower levels without a good chance of getting haste things get uglier for the fighter ... at higher levels the Eidolon gets large and things get uglier too for the fighter. Not saying these are great builds, but they...
Not impressed. You did not post a build. You threw some numbers at us. Numbers don't win fights alone.
If you post a build then it is easier to say how to deal with it.
I love how the argument in defense of the summoner has been to invoke a tier 1 class and say "this is worse. How can you say this is overpowered?"
And summoners more than any other class can boost up their tier pretty easily. Between an archetype, intelligent eidolon design, and the right spell selection, that can boost themselves up into the lower end of tier 1.
As far as animal companion vs eidolon...both have their strengths, both have their weaknesses. All in all, I personally don't think either one is better than the other.
My argument in defense of the summoner is actually more along the lines of "they're pretty weak at early levels, and start to fall-off hard after the mid-levels.
Basically summoners have a sweet spot where your average one is at the top of their power, and can outperform a lot of the other classes, but it doesn't last forever. I found (in running a game with two summoners) that the period from which an eidolon can outperform even a raging barbarian of the same level as their summoner only lasts from around 7th level to 10th level.
Before 7th, the summoner is very at-risk from being knocked out themselves, resulting in eidolon dismissal, and their eidolon hasn't begun to pick up it's cool 7th level evolutions. After 10th they're just not as good as the classes that have caught up with them (a lot of classes get nice 10th level abilities, whereas the summoner's 10th level ability boots himself rather than the eidolon, in fact outright draining the eidolon for a slight boost to the summoner, normally in the form of wings. It doesn't contribute to a stronger eidolon at all).
I've never had serious summoner issues, but I guess that's because everyone realizes that a constrictor/swallow whole eidolon is the coolest one to build.
Okay a straightforward two handed 7th level fighter and a straightforward quadraped 7th level Eidolon waling on a AC 19 monster, first round they have to charge
Eidolon : 14 + 2 (bonus) + 1 (level) +2 (evo) + 2 (enh) = 21 strength.
Relevant feats : power attack, INA(claws), weapon focus(claws)
Relevant evolutions : ability increase (2), gore (2), claws (1), rend (2), energy attack acid (2)
Relevant items : belt of giant strength +2, amulet of mighty fist shocking, boots of speed
Relevant buffs : extended GMF (through metamagic rod of extend), hasteTwo handed Fighter : 18 + 1 (level) + 2 (enh) = 21 strength.
Relevant feats : power attack, furious focus, weapon focus greatsword, weapon specialization greatsword
Relevant items : belt of giant strength +2, Greatsword +1 corrosive, cloak of fangs (for laughs)
Relevant buffs : hasteEidolon :
Attack bonus 6 + 5 (strength) +1 (enh) -2 (PA), +1 for claws WF and +2 for charge when applicable.
First round : (3*0.75+2*0.7)*(1.05*(3.5+5+1+4)+7) + 0.84*(3.5+7+1+4) = 90.3 (first part is natural attacks, second is rend ... chance of rend triggering is a binomial function which I did not write out fully)
Subsequent rounds : (3*0.65+2*0.6)*(1.05*(3.5+5+1+4)+7) + 0.72*(3.5+7+1+4) = 77.9Of course an average CR7 monster only has 70 HP, so it would likely have dropped on the first round.
Fighter :
Attack bonus 7 + 5 (strength) + 1 (weapon training) + 1 (WF) + 1 (enh), -2 for bite, -2 for power attack and +2 for charge when applicable
First round : 0.95*(1.05*(7+10+1+1+6+2)+3.5) = 30.3
Here is the problem ... 1/3 the damage ...
Subsequent rounds : 0.95*(1.05*(7+7+1+1+6+2)+3.5)+(0.85+0.6)*(1.05*(7+10+1+1+6+2)+3.5)+0.75*(3. 5+2) = 77.6
About tied due to the joke item.
I did this at 7 so the THF would have backswing ... at lower levels without a good chance of getting haste things get uglier for the fighter ... at higher levels the Eidolon gets large and things get uglier too for the fighter. Not saying these are great builds, but they...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerPaizo Publishing
Eidolons and Equipment
Eidolons are limited in the amount of gear and equipment they can use. Their forms tend to shift over time, making certain types of gear impossible to use properly. Eidolons with the proper training and the limbs (arms) evolution can wield weapons. They suffer the normal penalties for wielding more than one weapon, regardless of the number of arms they possess. Eidolons cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield. Eidolons can use some magic items. Each eidolon can wear up to two rings, if it has the limbs (arms) evolution. Each eidolon can wear a single magic item in the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. An eidolon with the limbs (arms) evolution or the tentacle evolution can drink potions.
Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of the reason. If this includes cursed items, the items immediately return to the eidolon when it is summoned again.
source: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/advanced PlayersGuidePlaytest/round2/uPDATESummoner
no boots for the eidelon----if you are doing PFS--the eidelon can NOT choose feats out of the bestiary so no INA for claws. No waist slot for the eidelon so no belt of strength.
this is why the druid AC is MUCH stronger than the eidelon in truth. the amound of magic items which can be added to the AC vs the eidelon.
I play a summoner in PFS. When I play people remark that my eidelon is considerably weaker than the other eidelons--but mine is legal. They have taken the evolution for improved damage (legal) and the bestiary feat for improved damage (illegal for PFS). they have their eidelons wearing belts (illegal) and have several levels of improved natural armor. Improved natural armor by evolution is limited by levels to availability and in PFS you can NOT take INarmor from the bestiary.
In short most of the most powerful eidelons are in fact illegal builds. But it isn't really any more difficult to check an eidelon build than it is an AC build. In fact it took me longer to understand the AC builds. And my druid (wild shaped into a megaraptor) with a mega raptor AC and using SNA to call Megaraptors is more powerful than my Summoner with his eidelon using spells to call monsters.
the summoned monsters cancel out. The AC and eidelon cancel out--with a small advantage actually going to the AC if you limit the eidelons magic items as legally required (ie no belts or boots)
then it is a megaraptor druid vs a summoner-----want to place bets?
oh and dont get me started on gunslingers with dual barrel pistols and weapon cords doing 120 dpr by level 8. and if they are dwarf gunslingers with reliable pistols (no chance of misfire)
Comments made by the designer while the playtest is still going on and the rules are still in flux don't trump the actual final printed rules.
That's kind of the point of having a playtest, see. If no rules ever changed between the playtest and the final product, playtests would be pointless and they'd just print the product in the first place.
For the OP's question, I think that effect is fair if, in the story, some sort of villain knows about the PC's, studies them, and deliberately recruits Banishment Abjurationists to take them down. Even then, it will get old if used every encounter, though.
If the PCs just randomly keep stumbling into hostile Banishers? That's just nonsense.
Pretty much this. If they happen to meet a Banisher, there would be no reason he wouldn't use it, but yeah I'd call BS if every encounter someone had an obscure power that is worthless in most situations.
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I think the point is valid, a quadruped pouncer eidolon will outdamage a THF in the first round if
within pounce range but not adjacent
Has a free lane to charge with
Is given the vast majority of a summoners amount of funds. (Not actually needed, but to hit is definitely more of an issue for eidolon without magic items or buffs)But that doesnt bother me any more than any other pouncer, or caster spells pretty much 4/5+. I quite enjoy summoners/eidolons, but they arent adamantine golems.
yeah, pounce makes for a good first round IF you can get it...but seriously, how often do it get it from itelligently run combat? Either your itching to get right up and pound them or you stay out of pounce range.
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The issue isn't the summoner, it's the two players of the summoner. Sounds like they have more system mastery then the rest of your players if they can out control a wizard with a summoner in your gaming group. That along with the facts that they are acting like jerks if you asked them to stop and they won't listen (rule one, don't play with jerks).
The issue isn't the summoner, it's the two players of the summoner. Sounds like they have more system mastery then the rest of your players if they can out control a wizard with a summoner in your gaming group. That along with the facts that they are acting like jerks if you asked them to stop and they won't listen (rule one, don't play with jerks).
Well what are they supposed to stop doing?
"Stop doing better than everyone else" is kind of an undefined request.
Either way they all loose. Gaming is about winning in an arena of your choice, where you have control/can predict, are an architect/know what to expect, whatever real life has on offer - I have chatted to the players and their too busy getting their jollies off to realise the gaming arena involves other players and a DM and are going to loose in their fantasy release world as people as their pcs are winning.
A. I think your original Idea to harsh. Your taking a Sledge Hammer to a problem a chisel could handle. Personally I think Summoners are fine, but if you want to tone him down try making it a debuff instead of completely taking the Eidolon out of the picture.
B. The quote above.... Um What? Sorry. I figured out what you where saying about the rest, but this part escapes me. What are you saying here?
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The issue isn't the summoner, it's the two players of the summoner. Sounds like they have more system mastery then the rest of your players if they can out control a wizard with a summoner in your gaming group. That along with the facts that they are acting like jerks if you asked them to stop and they won't listen (rule one, don't play with jerks).Well what are they supposed to stop doing?
"Stop doing better than everyone else" is kind of an undefined request.
Umm...yes. When I play in a casual gaming group, I tone WAY down as far as the mechanics goes. I don't play stupidly mind you...I just leave a lot of the mechanical tricks behind and play a more basic game so we can all have fun.
How else can you be the hulk, iron man, dr frankenstein or dr Jekkel and Mr Hyde, a golem master etc etc ... from low level.
Well Master Chemist IS Dr Jekkel/Mr Hyde. It even has the alter ego. Wonderful Prestige class as far as flavor.
Had a friend go Barbarian 1/Alchemist 5/Master Chemist 10/...
Was in Carrion Crown too lol.
Umm...yes. When I play in a casual gaming group, I tone WAY down as far as the mechanics goes. I don't play stupidly mind you...I just leave a lot of the mechanical tricks behind and play a more basic game so we can all have fun.
That doesn't make much sense to me.
Pick one tack to come at here because I'm not seeing it. Is it a problem with the CLASS or is it a problem with player SKILL at gaming the system?
If it's the latter then talking with the guy should be your first recourse, and hammer out something specifically that is wrong with his playstyle. Unless I missed it somewhere, the OP hasn't mentioned talking to the guy and asking him to let the other players have their moment in the limelight, he's just made an Eidolon-B-Gone spell in an attempt to band-aid the problem and probably alienate the player.
Better yet, he could ask the guy to help the other players bump their characters up a little bit. I'm sure a lot of possible resentment would be averted if some friendly advice towards increasing their character's effectiveness (without sacrificing their personal preference of course). Even if they don't take his advice, they can see that it actually required work for him to get his character to be that effective and probably won't be so resentful of what they see as an OP class.
If it IS a problem with the class as a whole, you can't exactly tone it down without playing stupidly, in which case you trade a mild annoyance for the other players for a complete lack of fun for the single player. If you're going to nuke his main class function at least have the courtesy to A.) Tell him WHY and B.) Give him the option to retire the character and bring in a new one. You don't just go around saying F#++ YOU to players because they're outshining the other players, you want to work with them to either bring their character down to a manageable level and/or bring the other player's characters UP to his level, depending on which scenario it is.
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Umm...yes. When I play in a casual gaming group, I tone WAY down as far as the mechanics goes. I don't play stupidly mind you...I just leave a lot of the mechanical tricks behind and play a more basic game so we can all have fun.That doesn't make much sense to me.
Pick one tack to come at here because I'm not seeing it. Is it a problem with the CLASS or is it a problem with player SKILL at gaming the system?
If it's the latter then talking with the guy should be your first recourse, and hammer out something specifically that is wrong with his playstyle. Unless I missed it somewhere, the OP hasn't mentioned talking to the guy and asking him to let the other players have their moment in the limelight, he's just made an Eidolon-B-Gone spell in an attempt to band-aid the problem and probably alienate the player.
Better yet, he could ask the guy to help the other players bump their characters up a little bit. I'm sure a lot of possible resentment would be averted if some friendly advice towards increasing their character's effectiveness (without sacrificing their personal preference of course). Even if they don't take his advice, they can see that it actually required work for him to get his character to be that effective and probably won't be so resentful of what they see as an OP class.
If it IS a problem with the class as a whole, you can't exactly tone it down without playing stupidly, in which case you trade a mild annoyance for the other players for a complete lack of fun for the single player. If you're going to nuke his main class function at least have the courtesy to A.) Tell him WHY and B.) Give him the option to retire the character and bring in a new one. You don't just go around saying F%*& YOU to players because they're outshining the other players, you want to work with them to either bring their character down to a manageable level and/or bring the other player's characters UP to his level, depending on which scenario it is.
Well for instance in a casual game, I am much more likely to play builds that I find amusing but not exactly a mechanical powerhouse that I like anyways. Like say the monk. Or the EK (which is one of my favorite thing to play). The arcane trickster. I would not play something like say a snyth summoner who has 7 in all phsyical stats has maxed cha and wis and has a 4 attacks that do WAY more damage then the average built fighter while having some very good spells to boost because then the fighter will not have fun. In my optimized game, the synth would be kinda laughed at because it is a trap. In the casual group, it steps on the toes of the party fighter and the BC controller. If I was making a fighter, instead of going with the two hander or bow, I may choose to do sword and board...or maybe trident and net...or maybe even do unarmed because hey that can be fun.
And yes of course I help the other players build better...but system mastery doesn't happen overnight.
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The players don't have more mastery, they have less vision.
Their builds are mathematicly sound, board plagerised and were as predictable to myself and a couple other players as the colour of my next dump.
Ironic that the best players often play weaker characters. I suppose it takes real skill to defeat a gobilin in melle with a bookless yet genius wizard unlike doing the same as an 15HD Barbarian vegepygmy with a +10 club?
By lack of vision, you mean they won't gimp themselves for "role playing" reasons? That isn't a lack of vision...that is somebody who realizes that the stormwind fallacy is just what it says...a fallacy. Just because you gimp yourself does not make you a better player, role player or otherwise.
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Well for instance in a casual game, I am much more likely to play builds that I find amusing but not exactly a mechanical powerhouse that I like anyways. Like say the monk. Or the EK (which is one of my favorite thing to play). The arcane trickster. I would not play something like say a snyth summoner who has 7 in all phsyical stats has maxed cha and wis and has a 4 attacks that do WAY more damage then the average built fighter while having some very good spells to boost because then the fighter will not have fun. In my optimized game, the synth would be kinda laughed at because it is a trap. In the casual group, it steps on the toes of the party fighter and the BC controller. If I was making a fighter, instead of going with the two hander or bow, I may choose to do sword and board...or maybe trident and net...or maybe even do unarmed because hey that can be fun.
And yes of course I help the other players build better...but system mastery doesn't happen overnight.
I think what you're assuming is that this player knew exactly what he was doing when he made the Summoner. This might be true, but it might not be (and it certainly won't be for every character). The guy could genuinely not have seen that the Synth would have outshone the rest of the group.
A good example is the group I'm playing with now. Guy picked a Druid. Now from all I hear, Druid is one of the best characters in the game if built right. This guy did not pick a Druid for that reason. He picked a Druid because he wanted to shapeshift into a bear. That was literally his entire thought process when picking Druid.
So you can kind of see my hesitance with hitting the guy with the DM Stick of Discipline when he could have been just enamored with the idea of basically playing one of the characters from Shaman King or something.
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I think what you're assuming is that this player knew exactly what he was doing when he made the Summoner. This might be true, but it might not be (and it certainly won't be for every character). The guy could genuinely not have seen that the Synth would have outshone the rest of the group.A good example is the group I'm playing with now. Guy picked a Druid. Now from all I hear, Druid is one of the best characters in the game if built right. This guy did not pick a Druid for that reason. He picked a Druid because he wanted to shapeshift into a bear. That was literally his entire thought process when picking Druid.
So you can kind of see my hesitance with hitting the guy with the DM Stick of Discipline when he could have been just enamored with the idea of basically playing one of the characters from Shaman King or something.
No, I didn't assume that the player knew exactly what s/he was doing from just picking the summoner. I assumed that from what the OP wrote...which is that they are out BCing the normal BC controller. I could see a summoner out damaging or out tanking in a casual group because they are REALLY easy to make do this...but when the out BC the full casters of the group with a half caster class...well that is some system mastery difference there. Course it kinda sounds like his other players are of the we are role players so we MUST gimp ourselves.
And honestly I didn't say hit him with the GM stick...I said to kick then out of the game for being jerks :P . The OP talked to them, they ignored him...that is a OOC issue and should be dealth with OOC. The OP need a chat with EVERYONE in his game it seems as it sounds like he has some OOC issues he really should deal with.
Yeah, i kinda agree with Stubs.
PF isn't a straight holy trinity style system. Your role isn't just chosen because you picked a class. You have to spec and gear for what you are trying to do. Some classes are better suited for some roles, but can do many other things instead of the obvious. Like how some wizards like to be blasters (and honestly, it is possible to enough damage if built well to justify it) rather than crowd control. Or how you can spec a cleric to be a heal bot or juggernaut of doom.
If the other party members aren't speced to be better than the secondary functions of the summoner, then those party members are being built with a lower power level in mind, or with much less rules mastery.
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Many people do not know how hard it is to charge and/or pounce. You need a clear lane, not just a clear line. That includes allies and by standers. Many people do not realize being able to make a move through an ally is different then the requirements for a charge/pounce. Difficult terrain can also prevent such. I guess flying can make it easier.
If this build he brought was so predicable, and you have a problem with it, in the group with less mechanically inclined players, why did you not ask right away for him to change the character for the next game. Why not explicitly give instructions to play a mediocre build to fit in with the others in the first place?
Is that bookless wizard character acting out low wisdom to go up against a goblin in melee? Or is he also 15th level with enough stuff to make the goblin trivial anyway. Is the rest of the group in a severe disadvantage or having to go into overdrive when the wizard decides to spend time on a goblin in melee?
Our party's Summoner has taken to- wait for it- summoning. The eidolon still travels, but when combat begins, he's sometimes swapped out depending on the situation.
When the party had trouble communicating with morlocks, out goes the eidolon, in comes hound archon.
He's summoned xills, lillends, archons, dinosaurs, succubi, eagles, rhinoceroseses, even an octopus. Now that was funny!
The group is 5 PCs, very well balanced, so the eidolon is less of an issue. Also the APL is 14, and the eidolon, though useful still in combat, is more like a cohort in terms of 'power'.
And the ability to effect summoned creatures at CL 1 is too powerful for my taste, save or no. There are other ways to get at the eidolon, like attacking it. Sounds pedestrian, but when it was tearing things up early on, as DM I took a few shots at it, and his little dog, er master, too.
I have to admit, I simply design a natural-attack based Eidolon strictly adhering to the rules and getting level-appropriate loot and buffs, and I can mow down an equal-CR monster built according to the standard monster building table stats in under 1 round on average levels 1-20 with a full-attack action.
And I'm not even a particularly sophisticated optimizer. The GM will have to throw my Eidolon an even-CR monster every encounter on top of what he already had planned just to keep him occupied for a round eating its guts out.
I also admit I can build an Alchemist that can do the same (albeit with a little more effort) leveraging infusion/bottled ally (preservationist) for monsters to hand out to my friends and my bombs.
One thing I don't understand is this "Tiers of Power" thing. Everybody says full casters are the most powerful characters. They are certainly the most versatile, but in a real dungeon-delving game, you know, around a table with people fighting DM-run monsters...the summoner's standard-issue Eidolon puts the fancy wizard to shame by chipper-shredding the encounter before it starts.
I'd put the high-damage classes such as Summoner, Alchemist, Druid and Magus near Tier I on a REAL Tiers of Power list. They mow encounters before the other PCs can even do a thing.
To the Point: the DM can nullify the Eidolon by increasing the level of difficulty of the encounters enough to give everybody something to do. Simple and straightforward. If I were DMing, I'd add another monster of even-CR just because an Eidolon is with the party.
Friendlyfish, the thing about PF is damage isn't always the solution, and you can win encounters without it with the tier 1 classes. When damage isn't the solution the classes you say have "real" power fall very far short (though druid is still tier 1, i don't know why people keep putting it on tier 2, maybe they are bad at building/using them). Alchemist is barely tier 3 btw, because its not even a real caster, its discoveries are nice, but its just a skill monkey class with glass cannon ability (bomb build can go off a few times a day, but the vivisectionist requires positioning to do damage).
Even in normal play with level appropriate encounters combats don't last more than 3 rounds for any optimized group without effects in play that extend the combat (difficult environment, invisibility, spring attack/flyby attack with faster enemies, ect). A CR equal encounter is meant to be an easy encounter for the average party.
Interestingly enough, the guidelines say the GM should reduce the CR of the encounter if terrain isn't favorable to the monster. Considering how dungeon play is often run (open door, roll initiative) I would say a reduction in CR is called for unless the monster get a surprise round.
As for the reason why eidolons are so dangerous for inexperienced GMs: Eidolons add greatly to the action economy. Instead of 4 PCs, only 2 characters focused on HP damage, and 2 on buffs/control, you have 3 damage focused PCs, and 2 focused on control/buffs. The action economy is highly favorable to the party with pets (this includes druid power level pets too). Many GMs tend to just pick a monster whose CR is equal the party and throw it in combat (often at charge range). When it dies horribly before it gets to act they come here and go: my PCs Class X is OP, help me nerf.
The solution is designing encounters that have more enemies (2 well picked level 10 monsters are usually more challenging than the typical lvl 12 solo). The encounters I've found that challenge the PCs (and I have a fairly power hungry group, 3 rounded the final boss of LoF at Lvl 13) are ones where the enemies have numbers at about half of the PCs (any lower and the individual CRs make the monsters AoE bait fodder) and that have some sort of way to extend their actions (swift or free actions) so they have a similar number of things they can do. An example is Efreet. They have swift action spell like abilities, and can really out action a party not ready for such a blitz. When run well they can really challenge a party (I've run them poorly before, they drop like a sack of potatos if not run well).
One thing I don't understand is this "Tiers of Power" thing. Everybody says full casters are the most powerful characters. They are certainly the most versatile, but in a real dungeon-delving game, you know, around a table with people fighting DM-run monsters...the summoner's standard-issue Eidolon puts the fancy wizard to shame by chipper-shredding the encounter before it starts.
I'd put the high-damage classes such as Summoner, Alchemist, Druid and Magus near Tier I on a REAL Tiers of Power list. They mow encounters before the other PCs can even do a thing.
The Tier system has very little to do with DPR. It has to do with Versatility and Power (in the sense of how they can change the world around them.)
Lets say your Campaign is like a road. The higher your Tier the more the DM has to watch your character, because the more tools you have at your disposal for going completely off the road... or skipping past a chunk of the road... or making your own road.
Tier 3-5 might do alot of damage... but they are easy to keep on the road of your campaign.
Tier 1-2 have spells and abilities that can cause the DM issue. They can instantly find answers to mysteries(Talk to dead, Commune, ect). They can instantly go anywhere (Fly, D-Door, Teleport, Plane Shift). They can bend the rules of reality (Limited wish, wish, Gate). This is why you have to watch a High Tier.
Here is an example.
I was playing a Cleric. We came up against the BBEG. A vampire. After we dropped him, he turned to gaseous form and slipped into a crack under the floor. We knew he was going to his coffin. While the rest the party started trying to dig through the floor... here is what I did.
1. Cast Gaseous Form (From a Domain) to get below.
2. I was at the start of a Maze. I cast Find the Path and avoided the whole trap filled maze. I found his Coffin in the middle of the Maze.
3. I used Commune to figure out what would kill the vampire for good. It was being submerged in a specific underground river in the maze.
4. I used my second casting of Find the path to find the underground river while caring the vampire there.
5. Dunked him in the river. Game over for the Vamp.
The whole time the DM just threw his hands up in the air after reading what the spells did... I got past the hours of maze, found the Vampire, figured out how to kill him, and did so... and the rest of the party was still trying to get through the floor up above.
Thats the kind of stuff a Tier 1 class can do.
Friendlyfish, the thing about PF is damage isn't always the solution, and you can win encounters without it with the tier 1 classes. When damage isn't the solution the classes you say have "real" power fall very far short (though druid is still tier 1, i don't know why people keep putting it on tier 2, maybe they are bad at building/using them). Alchemist is barely tier 3 btw, because its not even a real caster, its discoveries are nice, but its just a skill monkey class with glass cannon ability (bomb build can go off a few times a day, but the vivisectionist requires positioning to do damage).
Even in normal play with level appropriate encounters combats don't last more than 3 rounds for any optimized group without effects in play that extend the combat (difficult environment, invisibility, spring attack/flyby attack with faster enemies, ect). A CR equal encounter is meant to be an easy encounter for the average party.
Interestingly enough, the guidelines say the GM should reduce the CR of the encounter if terrain isn't favorable to the monster. Considering how dungeon play is often run (open door, roll initiative) I would say a reduction in CR is called for unless the monster get a surprise round.
As for the reason why eidolons are so dangerous for inexperienced GMs: Eidolons add greatly to the action economy. Instead of 4 PCs, only 2 characters focused on HP damage, and 2 on buffs/control, you have 3 damage focused PCs, and 2 focused on control/buffs. The action economy is highly favorable to the party with pets (this includes druid power level pets too). Many GMs tend to just pick a monster whose CR is equal the party and throw it in combat (often at charge range). When it dies horribly before it gets to act they come here and go: my PCs Class X is OP, help me nerf.
The solution is designing encounters that have more enemies (2 well picked level 10 monsters are usually more challenging than the typical lvl 12 solo). The encounters I've found that challenge the PCs (and I have a fairly...
I'm not sure I agree with everything you say, really. In almost all games I've played in, killing monsters and exploring dungeons -is- the game. Sure, there's the hardcore RP game here and there, but I try to avoid THOSE people...=) Wizards are potent battlefield controllers, truth undisputable. However, they have few ways of actually KILLING the monsters efficiently, which is the stripped-out, bare-bones point of the game! I won't argue that they don't soften up the battlefield considerably at times. However, the monsters still have to be made dead and wizards, clerics, sorcerers, oracles... and all these so-called "Tier 1s" do don't do that very well (unless you're a monster summoner, that changes things, in my experience.)
When I played my high-damage alchemist or summoner, I had as much fun as the wizard. I killed the monster quickly, he inconvenienced them mightily. We both felt pretty cool. I didn't feel on a "Tier 3" compared to his "Tier 1". I think the Tiers of Power are advertising that the wizard is just simply -better- in pathfinder play, and that's in my real, at-a-table play experience just not the case.
To speak to the poster below you, I'll buy that argument regarding said interpretation of "Tiers of Utility" or "Tiers of I Wrecked the DMs Inept, Level-Inappropriate Dungeon Building". Full casters can sure ruin a DM's carefully plotted scenario with their massive utility breadbasket of spells. However, that's the DM's burden to address, and therefore counter or complement their versatility in a tactful and fun way. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
In summary - I feel plenty overpowered by 1-round smoking things at equal CR. I certainly don't feel overshadowed by my wizard debuffer buddy. Don't take that to mean that I think the alchemist is better than the wizard, but I think they coexist fine and perform nonoverlapping functions during encounters. It's just this implicit hierarchy of "power" I think is just not at all true.
On the topic of pounce:
RAGELANCEPOUNCE. Never complain about an eidolon when a Barbarian is on the field!
On the topic of pounce:
RAGELANCEPOUNCE. Never complain about an eidolon when a Barbarian is on the field!
Yeah, the AM BARBARIAN build is a good example to show when people say that X class is better at dealing damage than damage specialist characters. Interestingly enough one build iirc uses a synthesist cohort as a mount.
Usually what happens is somebody has an optimized concept they then compare to average Joe Fighter or Joe Barbarian.
In that comparison of course the tweaked out character is going to do better (of course half the time the OP character is built wrong or with 3rd party stuff, or a rule is misunderstood). One of the reason for the DPR Olympics is comparing highly optimized damage builds against each other. IIRC Barbarians and fighters do pretty well at them. Some of the Glass cannon classes are up there too, and there are some crazy multi class builds too.