Why don't they stack?
I checked your spoiler tags, I couldn't find what you meant.
the reason the boots, nor haste, stack with the monk's speed bonus, is that all 3 bonuses, are enhancement bonuses.
monk speed bonus = enhancement bonus
boots of striding and springing = enhancement bonus
haste = enhancement bonus
expeditious retreat = enhancement bonus
longstrider - enhancement bonus
barbarian speed bonus = untyped bonus
travel domain bonus = untyped bonus
oracle flames/metal bonus - untyped bonus
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...Monks in a prison break situation or you can't take weapons past this point area are very cool. Especially if you have a disarm monk. Bashing in faces, stealing weapons, chucking them to compadres. Very neat.
Yes, but how often does that happen? In the last ten years of gaming...once, to me. And even then it was easy for other PCs to smuggle in weapons.
...Yes yes, monks can wear those boots too, and then they are even faster.
No they aren't, all the bonuses from those items are enhancement bonuses the same as the monk's speed bonus, and like bonuses do not stack.
This class is better than the monk when I use a magic item, makes your argument all about the items, and not comparing classes.
Problem here is that equipment is assumed at a certain value by level (see page 399 of the core rulebook), so magic items are assumed. It's like saying that a monk at 10th level is better against a creature vulnerable to magic weapons than a fighter - because without assuming equipment, the fighter doesn't have a magic weapon...which is dumb, because OF COURSE the fighter will have a magic weapon. There are issues that can be 'fixed' with magic items, and issues that can't. The problem with comparing the monk to other classes is that the monk's "advantages" over these classes can and are "fixable" with items. The monk's disadvantages compared to these classes cannot be. That's why items are a valid point for discussion.
My point here was, IF running away is a problem for scouts, then scouts can carry gear to fix that problem very easily that is within the scope of even low-level adventurers. The monk's "advantage" is not much of an advantage if everyone can do it with a little investment. On the other hand, the bonus skill ranks these classes have over the monk are far harder for the monk to duplicate with equipment easily.
A ranger beefing their speed with one of their few spells is good, but they are still slower than the monk. Terrain can really matter though, and who is better at moving through it or making the required checks. I've never seen a monk with low acrobatics or a weak jump, though.
Rangers and rogues both get Acrobatics as class skills, and the ranger has favoured terrain as well. Druids can wildshape into a bird or bat and fly. Combined with the fact that they can all match or get close to the monk's speed, and it's again not that big an advantage if it's an advantage at all.
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I don't like you much, but your psionic monk is a really cool idea.I feel morally obligated to link this for those with monk woes.
Monk (Psionic) fixes pretty much every major problem that monks feel, provides options for countless monk themes, doesn't need tons of archetypes or hoop-jumping or specific races to function. Has been frequently used with standard 15 point buy without falling behind. It can be used for everything from venerable masters of an ancient esotetic martial art to elven assassins who use magical powers to stalk and kill their enemies.
Pretty much all the core monk features are present though most have been converted into "secrets" which are selectable class features obtained periodically throughout your career and there are other options for secrets (some of which encompass a few archetypes).
The class lacks a ki pool (because it would be redundant). Virtually everything that someone would need a ki pool for is covered by an expansive list of powers that double as choose-it-yourself class features (by selecting powers appropriate to your theme you can easily produce your perfect monk regardless of your concept).
You can find all the full details of the psionic system for free here: d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed and can purchase the book or pdf here: Psionics Unleashed Pdf, Print, or Bundle. Truly some of the best rules for 3.x/Pathfinder in existence. You can also check out Dreamscarred's website at DreamscarredPress.com.
I have a player who really loves monks and used to want to play them frequently. He liked the thematic flavor of them. Unfortunately when it came to the actual game he quickly ended up struggling. It wasn't the kind of struggling of Gimli and Legolas with their "I can get more kills than you!". It was the sort of struggling to survive and/or be relevant against the encounters and challenges that the other members seemed to have only moderate difficulty with.
In essence, he was aquaman and everyone else was somebody. I wanted to help him so I took a good hard look at the monk in 3.5 (which is where this fix started). It was there that I gave the basic 3.5 monk psionics and that alone was plenty to "fix" the monk to the point where he could have fun and contribute. That was enough for us pretty much indefinitely. It was a bit hackish but it was simple enough that we didn't bother going further with it.
Later on the Paizo forums I realized that people were still having huge problems with the monk and that these problems weren't getting any better. So I thought maybe our hotfix would help other people enjoy monks, so I posted the experimental page and showed examples of how we would use the 3.5 monk + psychic warrior powers to create various concepts and mechanically viable characters.
It's in my nature to want to help people, and so I took the time to rewrite the monk with this system in mind and create a unified whole. No longer would you need to patch the class yourself, just grab the pdf and go. I included links to the SRD in the pdf for convenience to the reader. I also enhanced the class by giving the player more variance and opening it up for expansion (either from myself or someone else's homebrew) with the student and master secrets (being a fan of D20 Modern, I really enjoy classes that can fill a variety of roles and allow you to choose your class features).
Ultimately I feel the psionic monk fills every niche that the monk should have - mechanically, flavorfully, and conceptually - and even giving people room to think outside the box to make something more personal for them. Ki/Chi/Psi/Qi/Prana/Mana are all often associated in reality as some form of inner power used to produce a supernatural effect and the psionics system emulates this far better than any competing system I've ever seen. It also doesn't come with the hangups you get with bat poo and whether or not there's a correct deity for your clerical concept (it's refluffability makes it a potent roleplaying tool).
This also makes the monk fill the idealized role perfectly. They are not a full BAB class, and without their unique inner power they cannot stand toe-to-toe with most of the obstacles they face. However, due to their powers they can self-buff and have flesh as hard as iron, a grip like a boa, or move at superhuman speeds, or even - gasp - actually move and make a full-attack (thanks psionic lion's charge)!
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Why don't they stack?
I checked your spoiler tags, I couldn't find what you meant.
the reason the boots, nor haste, stack with the monk's speed bonus, is that all 3 bonuses, are enhancement bonuses.
monk speed bonus = enhancement bonus
boots of striding and springing = enhancement bonus
haste = enhancement bonus
expeditious retreat = enhancement bonus
longstrider - enhancement bonusbarbarian speed bonus = untyped bonus
travel domain bonus = untyped bonus
oracle flames/metal bonus - untyped bonus
Pretty much this. It's the biggest reason monk speed has been rather "meh" forever. In pre-3E monks became immune to slow/haste type effects. In 3.x/Pathfinder their speed bonus is enhancement so it stacks with pretty much nothing except other class features (which isn't so awesome unless you plan to do a lot of multiclassing, and even then it's pretty meh). Other classes just get 'em some haste or longstrider or some other something and they're good to go.
The speed buff isn't actually inherent in my psionic monk but is available as a student secret. If taken you get the Speed of Thought psionic feat (which grants a +10 ft. insight bonus to speed when you're not overly encumbered, with a special ability that makes it scale up as your psionic monk level rises).
I've long allowed edits, sooo, you can have the monk as is, or you can lose something to get something that you want.
Some go vanilla and choose good feats and really solve the puzzle of combat, others go nope, I more want a brawler drunken master.
The speed buff isn't actually inherent in my psionic monk but is available as a student secret. If taken you get the Speed of Thought psionic feat (which grants a +10 ft. insight bonus to speed when you're not overly encumbered, with a special ability that makes it scale up as your psionic monk level rises).
The hustle power solves speed and pounce in one fell swoop.
The speed buff isn't actually inherent in my psionic monk but is available as a student secret. If taken you get the Speed of Thought psionic feat (which grants a +10 ft. insight bonus to speed when you're not overly encumbered, with a special ability that makes it scale up as your psionic monk level rises).The hustle power solves speed and pounce in one fell swoop.
It really is nice isn't it? =P
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I don't like you much
On a side note, was this really necessary? I don't harbor any sort of ill-will towards you, and I don't see how this affects the price of rice in China as they say.
I don't like you muchOn a side note, was this really necessary? I don't harbor any sort of ill-will towards you, and I don't see how this affects the price of rice in China as they say.
It's okay, bro. I like you! *Christian-bro-hugs*!
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Arrrrr Loyalist had a diplomacy check fumble, me tinks.
yaarrrrrrrrr
It's okay, bro. I like you! *Christian-bro-hugs*!I don't like you muchOn a side note, was this really necessary? I don't harbor any sort of ill-will towards you, and I don't see how this affects the price of rice in China as they say.
Huggles! (^-^)
Huggles! (^-^)It's okay, bro. I like you! *Christian-bro-hugs*!I don't like you muchOn a side note, was this really necessary? I don't harbor any sort of ill-will towards you, and I don't see how this affects the price of rice in China as they say.
Leave that poor teddy bear alone.
The Bracers cost the same, yes, but with a lesser armor value.
A chain shirt is 4+Enhancement, whereas the Bracers are just +Enhancement.
And what about TWFers? That's generally considered by far the weakest fighting style for ANY class, so comparing it to another class is kind of a wash.
Crap, I missed that. OK. But that is not a "crap" AC. Its still pretty nice.
If your claim then is that monks are weak because they are no better than TW fighters, well there is nothing I can say that will convince you otherwise. Except that they end up with better overall defenses. but hey, glass half empty, right?
Actually, they are worse. TWF Fighter gets better BAB, Better HP, Better Feats and Better AC. And they are not considered a viable build for a fighter...now you can begin to see why people are saying that Monks are not what they should be.
Arrrrr Loyalist had a diplomacy check fumble, me tinks.
yaarrrrrrrrr
Arrr, my charisma be loooowww.
Yarrrr!
3.5L just has a 7 Cha is all. :)Actually, his profile says Cha 5. Guy sure knows how to dump stats for optimization! ;)
Next thread I slay through comments, down to 4.
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Personally, I blame anime. Folks watch wuxia over-the-top fighting, come back to D&D and are amazed that Monks can't teleport across universes and throw punches that conjure meteors of death from 999th Hell or whatever. They want to go Ninja Scroll or Tekken and ooops, the system doesn't support that right out of the box.
I think that expectation of anime fans is one of the major drives of "D&D martials suck" movement. Of course, WotC didn't really help with throwing them a bone with ToB:Bo9s...
Lol, not for me. I was playing D&D before anime and the like existed, For me Monks are Bruce Lee/Jackie Chan as well as The water margin and Monkey.(I know, I'm showing my age).
That said, if someone wants Ninja scroll or Tekken, their should be a way to make their Monk like this (probably at higher levels). Perhaps have a number of paths (Hard Styke/Soft Style/Mystic Ki Style or whatever). Give them cool names (the path of shining moonlight, The path of flowers...whatever works).
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I've never been a huge tekken buff (Street Fighter / Mortal Kombat here) but Tekken never struck me as hugely over the top during the time I saw it or the rare instance I got to play it a little while. Just seemed like guys kicking and punching each other with the occasional shocking special effect on some guy's gloves or something.
That being said, I was a huge Bloody Roar fan. I mean, it was this sweet 3d fighter with a roster of lycanthropes! Kickass!
Long was my guy. I got decent enough with him that I rarely had to transform to win a match and relished beating down other zoanthropes while in human form by simply outplaying them.
Yugo was also a favorite. He's the werewolf of the game (though I think his human form looked cooler or at least dressed better in the first PSX title).
Alice the rabbit was pretty epic too and somewhat novel in a game that in itself is novel.
Other lycanthropes (or zoanthropes which is non-wolf specific) appeared in some other titles, such as the Jenny who is a bat.
PSX Opening for Original Bloody Roar + Bloody Roar Primal Fury Opening.
You say "Zoanthrope", I say "Therianthrope".
Either way it's pretty sweet. :)
You say "Zoanthrope", I say "Therianthrope".
Either way it's pretty sweet. :)
We're all 'thropes so I guess that's what really matters. :P
Amen. :D
I've long allowed edits, sooo, you can have the monk as is, or you can lose something to get something that you want.
Some go vanilla and choose good feats and really solve the puzzle of combat, others go nope, I more want a brawler drunken master.
The issue with this 3.5 is that we aren't all playing in your game. For every DM who will fudge base rules for the sake of fun you have one who will play RAW because it's the rules.
Most of us are hovering in the middle somewhere and while DMs are often willing to fudge a little(giving you access to a 3.5 feat or maybe taking a feat a level late whatever) there's a certain point at which they tend to get mighty skeptical and reworking the classes tends to be off limits.
Sadly for people playing PFS this is even worse because they have zero latitude to work outside the box. And really when we're talking about the classes their labeling or balance etc you have to talk about the base rules not your houserules because that's the standard assumption we make when we're talking about playing Pathfinder not 3.5 Loyalist-finder.
I think if everyone really cares, and sees problems (which so many of you do, the imbalance is glaring), we should all re-work the classes. Many of us already have. Who cares about orthodoxy in a game like this?
"you have to talk about the base rules not your houserules"
Nope, I can talk about and propose whatever I want. YOU HAVE NO POWER HERE! :D
And neither do I, but the adjustments, variants, builds can all be uttered here. Ommmmm.
I'll post builds tomorrow or tuesday. I need to contact the players and get their sheets.LOL but again, we ALL know that real world examples and experiences don't mean a hill of those warm stinky butt tootsie rolls my dog leaves on the carpet.
Monks and Rogues suck.
Except when they don't.
Could you answer the question posed to you here?
Does only positive real-world experience count, then? We say the monk is a weak class, we have played it and found it a weak class, and we can crunch the numbers to prove it. You say the monk is not a weak class, that you have experience of it not being a weak class in game, so please deliver the numbers that prove it - I'd LOVE to find a way to make monks that didn't suck badly in most boss encounters over 10th level (based on my experience of playing a monk in CotCT among others).
bump
I've long allowed edits, sooo, you can have the monk as is, or you can lose something to get something that you want.
Some go vanilla and choose good feats and really solve the puzzle of combat, others go nope, I more want a brawler drunken master.
The issue with this 3.5 is that we aren't all playing in your game. For every DM who will fudge base rules for the sake of fun you have one who will play RAW because it's the rules.
Most of us are hovering in the middle somewhere and while DMs are often willing to fudge a little(giving you access to a 3.5 feat or maybe taking a feat a level late whatever) there's a certain point at which they tend to get mighty skeptical and reworking the classes tends to be off limits.
Sadly for people playing PFS this is even worse because they have zero latitude to work outside the box. And really when we're talking about the classes their labeling or balance etc you have to talk about the base rules not your houserules because that's the standard assumption we make when we're talking about playing Pathfinder not 3.5 Loyalist-finder.
Unless you want to play a few specific builds, or rely on archetypes/variants to play a great monk (the type of monk you want to play), the monk requires some fudging/dm altering or splat (3.0-3.5 is great for this). If PF won't give it to you, and make changes to the basic monk, it is time to set out on an adventure and get it for yourself.
They are probably tired of all the monk/rogue/fighter whining, so resolve the problem yourself, for your group. The only group that matters.
The FFT talk made me very happy.
My buddy has rolled 2 monks. Both died quickly in the Darkmoon Vale module path (Crown of the Kobold King> Revenge of the Kobold King)
They struggle to hit and need to be close to do it and have subpar AC unless built that way. Then if you do you have even more issues hitting. And these are with my overpowered stat generation system (4d6 drop lowest reroll 1s, roll 2 sets and play with one)
Just my 2 cents.
Pretty much the nail on the head. A good optimizer can make a decent monk, it's true, especially if he uses archetypes, but these builds usually rely on rare equipment or quaffing potions of mage armour like they are going out of fashion, or start with "get the party wizard to cast..."
In short, they really struggle.