Monks are mislabeled


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I noticed on one of the earlier posts that the monk class is a source of frustration since it is considered a combat class that struggles to keep pace with other combat classes. But the monks class skills and features seem more suited to a stealth/ support role similar to the rogue. The two classes seem designed for similar roles: namely scouting ahead, tumbling around to get at soft targets like enemy mages, and flanking alongside the frontline warriors. Many of the problems other players seem to be having stem from trying to used the monk as a front line warrior. This seems to be like trying to use the bard as a replacement for the party paladin.

I do not know why the monk is listed as a combat class, but perhaps it would play better if people, revised their assumptions and used the monk as support/stealth/support role.


Before we get into this your ideas have been covered in other threads, and explained why they are not acceptable to a lot of us. In the last thread I listed links to other monk threads. Could you read them so we can avoid rehashing the same points? At the very least read the entire last thread.


First, you said support twice. He must be double-support, which a Bard is clearly better at (supporting with both spell and class features).

Second, saying a Bard replacing the Paladin would be highly incorrect. Saying the Bard replacing the Wizard would be much more appropriate.

Thirdly, many people have mixed feelings with Monks. Some people believe they're complete garbage. Others believe they are overpowered. Few even say they are just fine as they are (which I am one of those).

Lastly, I don't see how changing how they are "labeled" would affect how they function as a class.

**EDIT** And yes, we have plenty of Monk Complaint/Suggestion/Revision threads as it is. We don't need another to add to the "Mountain o' (Useless) Monk Threads", the strongest Metagame Artifact in all of creation.


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The difficulty is that for most of the monk's cool offensive tricks to work, they still have to hit and either do significant damage or overcome the opponent's saving throws. The rogue has ways to deal with this, imperfect as they are; the monk really does not anything to help here. Their offensive oriented abilities do not synergize well, and even when viewed as primarily a support/scout class, that is a major headache to overcome. I personally don't think the class needs a major overhaul, but a significant reorganization to make it's purpose clearer and allow for a better sync between abilities would be nice.


I'm going to just throw out there one thing. The monk is a grab bag of situationally useful. But that leaves it in the same boat as having too many good ideas in one thing. He doesn't really have a defined theme. If he uses his speed his offense falls if he goes offensive then he has to hope his defense can match trading blows. His non AC defensive features are lessened in ways by his already good save ( evasion excused of course) his capstone is a head scratcher. And most of his abilities someone else can do better and/or effect more people at the same or lower level.

So I guess this is to say when you guys do sit down with the monk start by deciding what you want it to do and then add ingredients.


monk as a scout class? there are some problems with that

lack of skill points, both due to base value and due to extreme multiple attribute dependency. not really enough to invest in the useful utilitarian skills

lack of decent class skills, they have half a list, but tis not sufficient for a proper skill monkey. not that they have enough skill points to use them all.

lack of proper skill augmenting powers beyond extreme jumping distance. most of thier abilities are all defensive and combat oriented

lack of proper spellcasting, like the rogue, they are a 3/4 bab noncasting class, but like the rogue, they get a form of compensation called flurry. much like a rogue gets sneak attack.

since the monk clearly doesn't have the skill points to be a proper scout or skill monkey, doesn't have the spells to be a caster, there is one last role. martial combatant, but they suck at that too.


nobody74 wrote:

I noticed on one of the earlier posts that the monk class is a source of frustration since it is considered a combat class that struggles to keep pace with other combat classes. But the monks class skills and features seem more suited to a stealth/ support role similar to the rogue. The two classes seem designed for similar roles: namely scouting ahead, tumbling around to get at soft targets like enemy mages, and flanking alongside the frontline warriors. Many of the problems other players seem to be having stem from trying to used the monk as a front line warrior. This seems to be like trying to use the bard as a replacement for the party paladin.

I do not know why the monk is listed as a combat class, but perhaps it would play better if people, revised their assumptions and used the monk as support/stealth/support role.

And what, pray tell, does the monk have that makes it fit that role? Skills? It has fewer skill ranks per level than the ranger, bard, or rogue . . . and lacks critical class skills to serve as a scout. Yes, the monk can max out Perception and Stealth and move faster while being Stealthy than any other class. But that alone does not a scout make.

Support. The monk's abilities are all self-only for the most part. How is this character a support class? They do not have spells, they cannot heal others, they provide no more support in combat than any other class that flanks someone for a rogue. They cannot pick locks or disable traps . . . finding traps isn't something they excel at either (although avoiding adverse results from traps is something that monks excel at).

From Pathfinder's role for monks: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.

Skilled in combat. Monks are the only medium BAB class that lacks their own special combat ability. Druids cast 0-9th level spells, have an animal companion, can shape-shift into more ferocious forms for combat, amongst other abilities. Clerics have 0-9th level spells, and while they lack a special combat ability, they have at their disposal spells which can make them outstanding in combat. Bards have 0-6th level spells and with their Inspire Courage bardic performance can often out-perform a monk at fighting . . . while having more skills, and many other special abilities. Magi have 0-6th level spells and break the action economy being able to full-attack and cast in a single round. Inquisitors have 0-6th levels, special abilities that directly impact on combat, and receive actual abilities to boost their companions in a support role, including teamwork feats.

Even the Rogue, who lacks any spell-casting ability (the only medium BAB to do so except for the monk [note: ninja is just an alternate rogue class, remember]), at least has sneak attack to boost his damage output, in addition to rogue tricks, trapfinding, both uncanny dodges, evasion, and twice the monk's skill ranks.

So, monk's are not a skill class, they are not a spell-casting class, they have no special abilities that directly aid anyone other than themselves . . . so what are they?

They are a martial class. A combat class. Monks have, ever since 1st edition, been a class focused on combat. They can scout along with the bard, ranger, and rogue, backing up those characters, but scouting is not their main role. No, monks are mystic martial artists who go out there and kung-fu their opponents into their graves. They karate chop demons and devils and dragons, and perform jijutsu against giants and monstrous humanoids.

Taking the monk away from that core area where he should (but doesn't) excel, well, that will only cause more people to express their negative opinions.

MA


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Personally, I believe the monk is a ruse designed by Wizards of the Coast and continued by Paizo to aggro significant numbers of players on their online forums.


Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Personally, I believe the monk is a ruse designed by Wizards of the Coast and continued by Paizo to aggro significant numbers of players on their online forums.

. . . that kind of makes sense from a certain point of view. LOL

MA


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

monk as a scout class? there are some problems with that

lack of decent class skills, they have half a list, but tis not sufficient for a proper skill monkey. not that they have enough skill points to use them all.

Does a scouting role require more than Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth? It seems that the Monk can specialize in a stealth role.

lack of proper skill augmenting powers beyond extreme jumping distance. most of thier abilities are all defensive and combat oriented

lack of proper spellcasting, like the rogue, they are a 3/4 bab noncasting class, but like the rogue, they get a form of compensation called flurry. much like a rogue gets sneak attack.

That argues for using monks against soft targets like enemy rogues or spellcasters. Most of their class feature seem tailor made for mage killing. Stunning fist also would seem to work well against annoying rogues and ninjas. Flurry of blows is likely to annihilate most other support characters and casters very quickly. Also, while there are several magic items that can nullify a sneak attack, there are very few that can negate the stunning fist.
If all else fails, monks are quite good at grappling foes so that other party member can finish the job.

since the monk clearly doesn't have the skill points to be a proper scout or skill monkey, doesn't have the spells to be a caster, there is one last role. martial combatant, but they suck at that too.

I disagree.


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nobody74 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

monk as a scout class? there are some problems with that

lack of decent class skills, they have half a list, but tis not sufficient for a proper skill monkey. not that they have enough skill points to use them all.

Does a scouting role require more than Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth? It seems that the Monk can specialize in a stealth role.

lack of proper skill augmenting powers beyond extreme jumping distance. most of thier abilities are all defensive and combat oriented

lack of proper spellcasting, like the rogue, they are a 3/4 bab noncasting class, but like the rogue, they get a form of compensation called flurry. much like a rogue gets sneak attack.

That argues for using monks against soft targets like enemy rogues or spellcasters. Most of their class feature seem tailor made for mage killing. Stunning fist also would seem to work well against annoying rogues and ninjas. Flurry of blows is likely to annihilate most other support characters and casters very quickly. Also, while there are several magic items that can nullify a sneak attack, there are very few that can negate the stunning fist.
If all else fails, monks are quite good at grappling foes so that other party member can finish the job.

since the monk clearly doesn't have the skill points to be a proper scout or skill monkey, doesn't have the spells to be a caster, there is one last role. martial combatant, but they suck at that too.

I disagree.

I disagree. :)

Shadow Lodge

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nobody74 wrote:
I disagree.

That's nice. Nobody cares.


wraithstrike wrote:
nobody74 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

monk as a scout class? there are some problems with that

lack of decent class skills, they have half a list, but tis not sufficient for a proper skill monkey. not that they have enough skill points to use them all.

Does a scouting role require more than Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth? It seems that the Monk can specialize in a stealth role.

lack of proper skill augmenting powers beyond extreme jumping distance. most of thier abilities are all defensive and combat oriented

lack of proper spellcasting, like the rogue, they are a 3/4 bab noncasting class, but like the rogue, they get a form of compensation called flurry. much like a rogue gets sneak attack.

That argues for using monks against soft targets like enemy rogues or spellcasters. Most of their class feature seem tailor made for mage killing. Stunning fist also would seem to work well against annoying rogues and ninjas. Flurry of blows is likely to annihilate most other support characters and casters very quickly. Also, while there are several magic items that can nullify a sneak attack, there are very few that can negate the stunning fist.
If all else fails, monks are quite good at grappling foes so that other party member can finish the job.

since the monk clearly doesn't have the skill points to be a proper scout or skill monkey, doesn't have the spells to be a caster, there is one last role. martial combatant, but they suck at that too.

I disagree.
I disagree. :)

I agree with your disagreeing oh omnipotent one.


wraithstrike wrote:
nobody74 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

monk as a scout class? there are some problems with that

lack of decent class skills, they have half a list, but tis not sufficient for a proper skill monkey. not that they have enough skill points to use them all.

Does a scouting role require more than Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth? It seems that the Monk can specialize in a stealth role.

lack of proper skill augmenting powers beyond extreme jumping distance. most of thier abilities are all defensive and combat oriented

lack of proper spellcasting, like the rogue, they are a 3/4 bab noncasting class, but like the rogue, they get a form of compensation called flurry. much like a rogue gets sneak attack.

That argues for using monks against soft targets like enemy rogues or spellcasters. Most of their class feature seem tailor made for mage killing. Stunning fist also would seem to work well against annoying rogues and ninjas. Flurry of blows is likely to annihilate most other support characters and casters very quickly. Also, while there are several magic items that can nullify a sneak attack, there are very few that can negate the stunning fist.
If all else fails, monks are quite good at grappling foes so that other party member can finish the job.

since the monk clearly doesn't have the skill points to be a proper scout or skill monkey, doesn't have the spells to be a caster, there is one last role. martial combatant, but they suck at that too.

I disagree.
I disagree. :)

somebody added a whole opposite point to my post. please stop misrepresenting me. i am not advocating using monks against soft targets. i advocate avoiding trying to use them. you don't need special magic items to nullify stunning fist, the easy fortitude save is close enough. may not be 2+ for an arcanist, but it's likely 7+ for an arcanist against a monk who doesn't specialize highly in the art of stunning.


They can actually make decent scouts, but as with every other possible choice, they usually have to make some pretty significant choices that end up hurting them in other areas. That is probably the biggest problem with the class. All classes reward specialization, but with core material only, the monk is the only class that is forced to be a one trick pony, and that one trick still has difficulty succeeding because of the massive weaknesses everywhere else. Everyone else can at least be mostly functional in most of the areas they don't focus on (assuming reasonable builds that aren't actively trying to focus on one trick to the exclusion of all others, which is something every class but the monk can do fairly easily), even if they don't overly shine in them.


Wraithstrike Minion #1 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
nobody74 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

monk as a scout class? there are some problems with that

lack of decent class skills, they have half a list, but tis not sufficient for a proper skill monkey. not that they have enough skill points to use them all.

Does a scouting role require more than Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth? It seems that the Monk can specialize in a stealth role.

lack of proper skill augmenting powers beyond extreme jumping distance. most of thier abilities are all defensive and combat oriented

lack of proper spellcasting, like the rogue, they are a 3/4 bab noncasting class, but like the rogue, they get a form of compensation called flurry. much like a rogue gets sneak attack.

That argues for using monks against soft targets like enemy rogues or spellcasters. Most of their class feature seem tailor made for mage killing. Stunning fist also would seem to work well against annoying rogues and ninjas. Flurry of blows is likely to annihilate most other support characters and casters very quickly. Also, while there are several magic items that can nullify a sneak attack, there are very few that can negate the stunning fist.
If all else fails, monks are quite good at grappling foes so that other party member can finish the job.

since the monk clearly doesn't have the skill points to be a proper scout or skill monkey, doesn't have the spells to be a caster, there is one last role. martial combatant, but they suck at that too.

I disagree.
I disagree. :)
I agree with your disagreeing oh omnipotent one.

This is the Leader of the Legion of the Many Eyed Shadow, and I approve this message.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
nobody74 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

monk as a scout class? there are some problems with that

lack of decent class skills, they have half a list, but tis not sufficient for a proper skill monkey. not that they have enough skill points to use them all.

Does a scouting role require more than Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth? It seems that the Monk can specialize in a stealth role.

lack of proper skill augmenting powers beyond extreme jumping distance. most of thier abilities are all defensive and combat oriented

lack of proper spellcasting, like the rogue, they are a 3/4 bab noncasting class, but like the rogue, they get a form of compensation called flurry. much like a rogue gets sneak attack.

That argues for using monks against soft targets like enemy rogues or spellcasters. Most of their class feature seem tailor made for mage killing. Stunning fist also would seem to work well against annoying rogues and ninjas. Flurry of blows is likely to annihilate most other support characters and casters very quickly. Also, while there are several magic items that can nullify a sneak attack, there are very few that can negate the stunning fist.
If all else fails, monks are quite good at grappling foes so that other party member can finish the job.

since the monk clearly doesn't have the skill points to be a proper scout or skill monkey, doesn't have the spells to be a caster, there is one last role. martial combatant, but they suck at that too.

I disagree.
I disagree. :)
somebody added a whole opposite point to my post. please stop misrepresenting me. i am not advocating using monks against soft targets. i advocate avoiding trying to use them. you don't need special magic items to nullify stunning fist, the easy fortitude save is close enough. may not be 2+ for an arcanist, but it's likely 7+ for an arcanist against a monk who doesn't specialize highly in the art of stunning.

That would be nobody74. He may have accidentally messed up the quote tags.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
nobody74 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

monk as a scout class? there are some problems with that

lack of decent class skills, they have half a list, but tis not sufficient for a proper skill monkey. not that they have enough skill points to use them all.

Does a scouting role require more than Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth? It seems that the Monk can specialize in a stealth role.

lack of proper skill augmenting powers beyond extreme jumping distance. most of thier abilities are all defensive and combat oriented

lack of proper spellcasting, like the rogue, they are a 3/4 bab noncasting class, but like the rogue, they get a form of compensation called flurry. much like a rogue gets sneak attack.

That argues for using monks against soft targets like enemy rogues or spellcasters. Most of their class feature seem tailor made for mage killing. Stunning fist also would seem to work well against annoying rogues and ninjas. Flurry of blows is likely to annihilate most other support characters and casters very quickly. Also, while there are several magic items that can nullify a sneak attack, there are very few that can negate the stunning fist.
If all else fails, monks are quite good at grappling foes so that other party member can finish the job.

since the monk clearly doesn't have the skill points to be a proper scout or skill monkey, doesn't have the spells to be a caster, there is one last role. martial combatant, but they suck at that too.

I disagree.
I disagree. :)
somebody added a whole opposite point to my post. please stop misrepresenting me. i am not advocating using monks against soft targets. i advocate avoiding trying to use them. you don't need special magic items to nullify stunning fist, the easy fortitude save is close enough. may not be 2+ for an arcanist, but it's likely 7+ for an arcanist against a monk who doesn't specialize highly in the art of stunning.
That...

Sorry about that.


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Wraithstrike Minion #1 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
nobody74 wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:

monk as a scout class? there are some problems with that

lack of decent class skills, they have half a list, but tis not sufficient for a proper skill monkey. not that they have enough skill points to use them all.

Does a scouting role require more than Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth? It seems that the Monk can specialize in a stealth role.

lack of proper skill augmenting powers beyond extreme jumping distance. most of thier abilities are all defensive and combat oriented

lack of proper spellcasting, like the rogue, they are a 3/4 bab noncasting class, but like the rogue, they get a form of compensation called flurry. much like a rogue gets sneak attack.

That argues for using monks against soft targets like enemy rogues or spellcasters. Most of their class feature seem tailor made for mage killing. Stunning fist also would seem to work well against annoying rogues and ninjas. Flurry of blows is likely to annihilate most other support characters and casters very quickly. Also, while there are several magic items that can nullify a sneak attack, there are very few that can negate the stunning fist.
If all else fails, monks are quite good at grappling foes so that other party member can finish the job.

since the monk clearly doesn't have the skill points to be a proper scout or skill monkey, doesn't have the spells to be a caster, there is one last role. martial combatant, but they suck at that too.

I disagree.
I disagree. :)
I agree with your disagreeing oh omnipotent one.

I also agree with your disagreeing but I disagree with the other minion agreeing with you since he was clearly just sucking up to curry your favor.


Wraithstrike Minion #1 has been around for a while, and he knows sucking up to me ensures I allow a creature to exist when I finally take over this place.

Not that I am saying he was sucking up, but it might help others who wish to curry my favor, and if they don't wish to curry my favor, they will wish they did.

I see great potential in you Wraithstrike Minion#2. You have added strength to The Legion of the Many Eyed Shadow.


the only thing that can fix the monk is a new edition. a less gear dependant edition where MAD is favored.


The monk is not that bad. If you reduce mad, give him a decent way to bypass DR, and improve his ability to skirmish I think that would work. Maybe something like two weapon pounce from 3.5.


nobody74 wrote:

I noticed on one of the earlier posts that the monk class is a source of frustration since it is considered a combat class that struggles to keep pace with other combat classes. But the monks class skills and features seem more suited to a stealth/ support role similar to the rogue. The two classes seem designed for similar roles: namely scouting ahead, tumbling around to get at soft targets like enemy mages, and flanking alongside the frontline warriors. Many of the problems other players seem to be having stem from trying to used the monk as a front line warrior. This seems to be like trying to use the bard as a replacement for the party paladin.

I do not know why the monk is listed as a combat class, but perhaps it would play better if people, revised their assumptions and used the monk as support/stealth/support role.

From my perspective, the monk seems to be a light to medium damage dealing unit, with a LOT of versatility, utility when it comes to CMB/CMD/Movement, and excellent survivability. I generally play a class for the flavor, not the DPR.

Below is the route I'm taking with my Monk. Don't ever expect a monk by himself to deal plethoras of damage. If you want damage I don't recommend monks. As everyone else I would recommend a fighter or magus. Personally I'm more of a "pester you to death" kind of player in which I generally tend to draw attacks of opportunity from opponents, trip them, then flurry them. If they try to get away, op attack with the stand still feat, then they stay close by for more flurry of death.
The good thing about this build is you will have seriously high defenses vs trip, bull rush, disarm, melee/ranged attacks, good attack roll bonuses, poor fort save but high reflex and will. Spell resist that basically knocks down spell attacks to a 50% chance to hit for the most part. Immunities to various diseases and poisons. High chance to confirm critical hits.

This monk is meant to draw op attacks(in which he will likely "body twist" off with his super high AC), trip, disarm, and flurry opponents to death. He wields only his unarmed attacks, a sai, and a kama. Weapons with the purpose only for disarming and tripping then following it up with a brutal unarmed attack.

I hope this gives you ideas.

Vanaras Qinggong Monk
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 5

Level 1
Class Ability: Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, Improved Unarmed Strike
Feat: Toughness
Bonus Feat: Dodge
Level 2
Class Ability: Evasion
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes
Level 3
Class Ability: Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, Still Mind
Feat: Weapon Finesse
Bonus Feat: ---
Level 4
Class Ability: Ki Pool(magic), True Strike
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 5
Class Ability: Purity of Body
Feat: Improved Trip
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 6
Class Ability: Slow Fall 30, Ki Stand
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat: Mobility
Level 7
Class Ability:
Feat: Snake Style
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 8
Class Ability: Slow Fall 40, Share Memory
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 9
Class Ability: Improved Evasion
Feat: Snake Sidewind
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 10
Class Ability: Ki Pool(lawful) Slow Fall 50, Ki Leech
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat: Improved Critical
Level 11
Class Ability: Diamond Body
Feat: Snake Fang
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 12
Class Ability: Abundant Step, Slow Fall 60
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 13
Class Ability: Diamond Soul
Feat: Stand Still
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 14
Class Ability: Slow Fall 70
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat: Medusa’s Wrath
Level 15
Class Ability: Quivering Palm
Feat: Hammer the Gap
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 16
Class Ability: Ki Pool(adamantite), Slow Fall 80
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 17
Class Ability: Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Feat: Touch of Serenity
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 18
Class Ability: Slow Fall 90
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat: Deflect Arrows
Level 19
Class Ability: Empty Body
Feat:
Bonus Feat:-----
Level 20
Class Ability: Perfect Self, Slow Fall Infinite
Feat: ---
Bonus Feat:-----

Most desired Equipment:
• Amulet of Mighty Fists *****
• Monk’s Robe ****
• Belt of Incredible Dexterity ***
• Unfettered Shirt **
• Truesight Goggles **
• Boots of Speed ****
• Deliquescent Gloves **
• Halo of Menace ***
• Headband of Inspired Wisdom ***
• Juggernaut’s Pauldrons ****
• Bracers of Sworn Vengeance **


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Just wanted to say that I see "monk" in a thread title now and I just want to spout expletives at everyone who posts for or against as IT'S BEEN TALKED TO F@#$*&^ DEATH! Get over it already, why does anyone even care anymore?


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Conundrum wrote:
Just wanted to say that I see "monk" in a thread title now and I just want to spout expletives at everyone who posts for or against as IT'S BEEN TALKED TO F@#$*&^ DEATH! Get over it already, why does anyone even care anymore?

Because it hasn't been fixed yet.

I'm not the kind to stop caring after a while if something is broken and it keeps being explaining to the guys who are supposed to fix it "Hey it's broken, here's what's wrong" and then some asshat comes into the store and keeps going "No you idiot it works just fine, all you have to do is beat it with a hammer, turn it sideways, and then sprinkle it with the juice of the celery that stalks at midnight and it's fine" and actually gets people to agree with them.

It just makes me more angry as time passes, not less.


Don't like the class that much anyway,so what if it's broke I'll still play it if I feel the urge, otherwise what the hay there are something like 18 classes I like better.Wanna play a Monk at my table?Great! Don't urinate down my back if it doesn't work out. I care more about people carrying on multiple threads with thousands of posts going in cirles instead of discussing the game with newcomers that have questions of value. If people come here just to fight about this particular issue that is what makes me angry. Take a dump on the magus or summoner instead of the monk,rogue,fighter. At least that would be DIFFERENT and not talked into ten thousand concentric circles.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

How about you hide the threads then? Nobody's forcing you to come in, read them, and then get pissed off because it's a conversation you don't care about.


Rynjin wrote:
How about you hide the threads then? Nobody's forcing you to come in, read them, and then get pissed off because it's a conversation you don't care about.

This.


Monk is ill suited for the very roles you say it should be, OP. As many have explained.

Humphrey Boggard wrote:
Personally, I believe the monk is a ruse designed by Wizards of the Coast and continued by Paizo to aggro significant numbers of players on their online forums.

I always figured the suckiness of the monk class was a passive aggressive way to lash out at "Asian" thematic elements that the designers secretly despised for daring to try to share spotlight with their faux medieval European fantasy adventure.

It definitely had a stronger vibe of that in 3E, where literally EVERY Asian-themed class was significantly worse than its core counterpart (Samurai <--> Ranger or Paladin; Ninja <--> Rogue; Wu Jen <--> Wizard; Shugenja <--> ...Cleric), but for the monk class at least, the sentiment seems alive and well even in PF.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Conundrum wrote:
Get over it already, why does anyone even care anymore?

Because I still want to play a Monk. Not the class as it is, but as I imagine it should be.


++WIS>+STR or DEX>whichever you didn't pick first>CON>-INT>-CHA. I put WIS first to pump up monk abilities (SF, AC, Ki pool) then STR for attack/damage increase. If STR emphasis, use a reach weapon (combat reflexes should be your bonus feat if you use reach weapons). I like Guisarme (martial) for reach/trip AoO or Meteor hammer (exotic) for reach/trip & drag + AC bonus used 2 handed. follow up with FOB on opponents you dragged. take Mantis style. You need the caretaker trait so you can get heal as a class skill (1st you get +2 stun DC, then +2 to hit with SF, then different status effects like dazzled, staggered, fatigued, exhausted and for extra SF). if Dex emphasis, then throw a Chakram (martial) @ 1st level (a la TRON disc worn on your back and have 2 you can separate like Rinzler (make them returning). you get better damage and range (1d8, crit x2, 30 ft. range) then Shuriken and it's not destroyed after you hit. Generally you throw one then move into melee. If you wish you had spring attack at a given time throw the chakram instead.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Conundrum wrote:
Get over it already, why does anyone even care anymore?
Because I still want to play a Monk. Not the class as it is, but as I imagine it should be.

Does need to be a Pathfinder class because Swordsage with that unarmed feat in ToB fulfills this. Get Snap Kick too.

Then you can unarmed strike when you unarmed strike allowing multiple unarmed strikes along with those unarmed strikes. Tis a beautiful feat.

Silver Crusade

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Conundrum wrote:
Get over it already, why does anyone even care anymore?

Because some people want to be able to play a mystical martial artist and have it live up to its image.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Starbuck_II wrote:
Does need to be a Pathfinder class because Swordsage with that unarmed feat in ToB fulfills this. Get Snap Kick too.

I've thought about it.


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Yeah I see them as scouts, but also light spellcaster rushers. They can soak spells (mmm those saves, mmm evasion). Heavy buffed clerics take them out though, so they are more anti-wiz and anti-sorcerer, which you will never get players of these classes to ever acknowledge. The monk is crap, it is known, they say.

Rushing a wiz, taking the spell, charge with stunning fist. Then flurrying them to death, aaaaah, it is one of the great joys of this game, and 3.0-3.5.

If a heavy fighter comes to bash your teeth in, lure them away. Do not engage a greatsword fighter in close; and be very wary of barbarians because they are a counter to the monk.


Of course, the monk can also be a fine counter to the alchemist. Stay out of bombard range (which is quite short, but makes alcs great in dungeons), rush right up, then kill them and try not to get too roasted.


Mikaze wrote:
Conundrum wrote:
Get over it already, why does anyone even care anymore?
Because some people want to be able to play a mystical martial artist and have it live up to its image.

Yep, fans of martial arts films want their monk to be as good at fighting as the fighter. Alas they are not, the fighter is better at fighting.

So we hear full bab and d10 hit die over and over. Sorry champ, their benefits are elsewhere and spread out, not bab and hit die focused.


Spread out so far between each other they add up to less than the sum of their parts.

Monks have the ability to piss on math, at least.


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I have always wondered why Ki abilities aren't greatly expanded. It should be very much like Psioncs or to a degree like the magus' pool.

Ki to increase ability to hit or damage. Ki to heal others. Ki to use some psionic type abilities...etc.

I still love to play a monk. I would love to play a better version.


3.5 Loyalist wrote:

Yep, fans of martial arts films want their monk to be as good at fighting as the fighter. Alas they are not, the fighter is better at fighting.

So we hear full bab and d10 hit die over and over. Sorry champ, their benefits are elsewhere and spread out, not bab and hit die focused.

If full BAB and d10 HD makes you as good as a fighter at fighting, you must really hate the ranger, paladin, cavalier, and barbarian (he gets a d12! broken!)...

The benefits aren't spread out...they hardly even exist. Many of them exist solely to make up for the horrible fighting style that unarmed is. Climbing back to average (and they don't even do that) does not a class feature make. Class features should leave you better than normal. The other features tend to be horribly weak (just compare what you can get for a ki point vs. what you can get with a magus's arcana point, go ahead) or don't have any synergy at all (the classic flurry vs. fast movement deal).

Never mind that demanding all other classes be inferior to the fighter at fighting, even in their own special niche like unarmed, is ass backwards and insultingly unfair. Strangely, when I try to expand the Fighter's out of combat abilities with more class skills and skill points and other things, no one ever complains that Fighters are supposed to suck at out of combat stuff in return for being the kings of battle. Yet, when one attempts to boost the combat-weak non-casters up to an acceptable level, the bat guano starts flying...


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The thing about the monk is that they are not pure pugilists. Not really. This is reflected in their bab which is moderate but not good. They are more like half-mystics and hlf-pugilists. Therefore it somewhat makes sense for them to be inferior to the barb and fighter in standing toe to toe with the opponent. Like the rogue, they aren't actually a frontline tanker. If you find your monk standing toe to toe with opponents in the frontline instead of being melee support, then somebody isn't doing their job or you have no idea how to control your monk to best complement the party. A pugilist would actually be closer to an unarmed swordsage. The system of utilisiting stances and maneuvers is more in line with the whole martial shtick. Also, unarmed strike is designed to be mechanically inferior to every other fighting style in terms of damage. Even sword and shield outdamages unarmed so the game doesn't exactly favour unarmed martial artists in damage. Doesn't mean you can't contribute. Max out the grapple or stunning fist(I'd pick stunning fist over grapple but both can also work). Ask if your DM will allow you to swap out improved disarm for something monk related such as extra stunning. Monks can be good but tanking and killing opponents in one round is not something they can do. On the other hand, if the idea of slowing down opponents or preventing them from acting to give the part an edge isn't quite your thing, don't play a monk. Thats what they actually specialize in. By specialize, I mean make sure your monk is good at it. If you ar maxing grapple, simply taking improved grapple and maxing out strength isn't going to cut it. If maxing out stunning fist, go the whole ten yards. If its in a monster heavy campaign, and you are maxing grapple, you'll be fine if your grapple mod is around +23 at by level 10. If its stunning fist and you are pushing a dc of 24, thats good. Seen certain monks who were not just well created but also well played forcing saves of 29. Their main weakness is against hard hitting opponents. I remember a quest to clear a monastery and the party fighter and barb cleared out 75% of the monastery.
Down to half hp by that point. It was a cake walk for them. But since thats their weakness, hasn't really bothered me or anyone I know.


I recall a game where evil monks did so very poorly against a fighter/cleric with greataxe. It was a bit amusing actually. Flurry into armour, get beheaded, next.


yeah. They didn't try grappling or stunning fist though. They just flurried tinking that would be enough. That wasn't even a pure fighter or they would have been cut down in half the time.


The equalizer wrote:
The thing about the monk is that they are not pure pugilists. Not really. This is reflected in their bab which is moderate but not good. They are more like half-mystics and hlf-pugilists. Therefore it somewhat makes sense for them to be inferior to the barb and fighter in standing toe to toe with the opponent. Like the rogue, they aren't actually a frontline tanker. If you find your monk standing toe to toe with opponents in the frontline instead of being melee support, then somebody isn't doing their job or you have no idea how to control your monk to best complement the party. A pugilist would actually be closer to an unarmed swordsage. The system of utilisiting stances and maneuvers is more in line with the whole martial shtick. Also, unarmed strike is designed to be mechanically inferior to every other fighting style in terms of damage. Even sword and shield outdamages unarmed so the game doesn't exactly favour unarmed martial artists in damage. Doesn't mean you can't contribute. Max out the grapple or stunning fist(I'd pick stunning fist over grapple but both can also work). Ask if your DM will allow you to swap out improved disarm for something monk related such as extra stunning. Monks can be good but tanking and killing opponents in one round is not something they can do. On the other hand, if the idea of slowing down opponents or preventing them from acting to give the part an edge isn't quite your thing, don't play a monk. Thats what they actually specialize in. By specialize, I mean make sure your monk is good at it. If you ar maxing grapple, simply taking improved grapple and maxing out strength isn't going to cut it. If maxing out stunning fist, go the whole ten yards. If its in a monster heavy campaign, and you are maxing grapple, you'll be fine if your grapple mod is around +23 at by level 10. If its stunning fist and you are pushing a dc of 24, thats good. Seen certain monks who were not just well created but also well played forcing saves of 29. Their main weakness is against hard hitting...

So basically what you're saying is, Monks are okay if they focus every single iota of their energy into a thing, hyper-specializing in it, and still coming out worse than a reasonably specced full BaB class, since they can fight AND do Combat Maneuvers?

I don't buy this "Monks were specifically made mechanically inferior in combat in every way because..." angle because I personally don't believe Paizo staff are all massive dillholes.

There is NO EXCUSE in a game like this (where it's at least 70% combat on average) for a specific class to be made inferior in combat unless they hyper-specialize into being a one trick pony. Well, more like a half-trick pony in the case of Stunning Fist, since that STILL relies on you hitting people, so you need to at least be good enough at combat to land a hit for it to even have a chance of doing jack.


Monks can be frontline fighters, but they need to have a decent constitution, favored class bonus to HP, and toughness to cover the HP gap. They also need a good attack bonus, because they are constantly TWF/Flurrying. With them being as MAD as they are you have to do a tricky balance between attributes to make it work. However there are some nice options.

The style feats, for one, patch a lot of monk weaknesses, though you have to be selective about which one fits your fighting style. Snake style can cover a poor AC, Dragon style is GREAT for optimizing strength based monks. Mantis Style helps you make stunning fist stick more often. Crane style can negate who attacks against you. Snapping Turtle style feats give you bonus AC and let you grapple as an immediate action!

Hammer the Gap gets to be a good feat that applies a nice damage bonus as you level up. It depends on you hitting more than once though, so against high AC opponents it loses some pizzaz.

Weapon focus (unarmed attack) is a strong choice because attack bonuses are few and far between. Get yourself some brass knuckles or an amulet of mighty fists and don't worry about special effects, just straight enhancement bonus. The higher your attack bonus, the more attacks you land, they higher and higher your damage will go. End game monks have more attacks than anyone in the game (especially now that we know that ki and haste stack).

Which reminds me. Medusa's Wrath. Score a stunning fist and go to town with Hammer the Gap.

Edit - Medusa's wrath + Snake fang = 7 attacks in that round at your highest attack bonus. If they all hit, Hammer the gap adds 21 points of damage. This is not including any iteratives that hit either. The party barbarian watching you just wet his pants, as you beat your opponent into a fine red mist.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Pendin Fust wrote:

I have always wondered why Ki abilities aren't greatly expanded. It should be very much like Psioncs or to a degree like the magus' pool.

Ki to increase ability to hit or damage. Ki to heal others. Ki to use some psionic type abilities...etc.

Pendin, what you're looking for is the qinggong monk archetype on this page of the PRD.


Qinggong is not anywhere close to what he was talking about.

It's a really cool archetype but the abilities are mostly junk with a few diamonds scattered in. Which wouldn't be so bad if the Ki Pool were a bit larger and you could have more known (so the more situational ones would be more desirable options).

It's a good start to steering Monk away from a mostly pure combat role (which he's no good at) to the more well rounded caster/martial combo like the Magus and Inquisitor, however.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Personally, I blame anime. Folks watch wuxia over-the-top fighting, come back to D&D and are amazed that Monks can't teleport across universes and throw punches that conjure meteors of death from 999th Hell or whatever. They want to go Ninja Scroll or Tekken and ooops, the system doesn't support that right out of the box.

I think that expectation of anime fans is one of the major drives of "D&D martials suck" movement. Of course, WotC didn't really help with throwing them a bone with ToB:Bo9s...


Well, it's boost martials or nerf casters into the ground. Good luck getting traction for the latter.

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