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The prices are getting so high on these books these days. $50-$100 dollar books. I remember the days of AD&D when I could walk into a hobby shop and get a good adventure module for $15 bucks. Now, every body wants $30,$40, $50, $100 bucks for modules. The prices are getting ridiculous and is seems nothing cool can get made anymore withoug a kickstarter. Sad times for the RPG game industry. Due to the economy and $5 dollar a gallon gas prices, my campaign has come to a hiatus until further notice and there's no way I can keep caught up. If people keep paying these prices they will keep raising them. As of now, I'm not paying it anymore.
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Just so you're aware, playing Pathfinder is entirely free. the PFSRD has all the nonsetting books available online at no charge (core, APG, UM, UC, UR, etc)
The cost for a module is approximately $19 per book or so for an adventure path, or less for others and 3pp.
So the required cost to play pathfinder? $0, if you use your imagination, the same $15-20 you used to pay per module otherwise.
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I know what you mean about the prices. Many here get PDFs of the books to save money. Personally I have become more selective about what I purchase. I used to not be very selective about it. Also, not everyone in the group needs to own every book. Some work well as a group resource.
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Paizo's adventure modules are $19.99 for APs, and $13.99 for regular modules, so I'd say you're still right where you remember the days of AD&D in that regard :)
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Out of all the RPGs out there I am surprised you chose THIS to be the expensive one...the one with cheap PDFs and FREE online resources.
There are plenty of free RPGs out there if you cannot afford pathfinder.
Eclipse Phase, Burning Wheel, OSIRIC and D6 to name a few.
The Pathfinder books CAN be had for $20-30 via Amazon or just a bit more (due to shipping) if you subscribe here.
Optional materials such as battlemaps and miniatures all raise the price but they can also be replaced entirely with free or really cheap things and are totally not necessary.
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In the days of AD&D, you couldn't get the full ruleset and most of a campaign setting for free, not to mention free adventures.
Sure, prices have gone up -- just like they have for gas, which cost about 85 cents a gallon in AD&D days. RPG companies and their employees have to pay for gas and electricity and food and rent just like everybody else does. According to this inflation calculator, $1 in 1979 is the same as $3.15 today, so that $15 module would cost $47.25. If you mean 2e, one 1989 dollar is the equivalent of $1.85 today, so the module would cost $27.75. Looks like $30 to $50 is right on track. (Although if you mean actual adventure modules, Pathfinder's are only $13.99; I'm assuming you mean campaign setting and rules hardbacks.)
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Also, if you do buy an expensive book, its a one time purchase. Tricking out cars is an expensive hobby. Drinking too. Using a $50 book for 5 or more years is a great purchase.
The prices are getting so high on these books these days. $50-$100 dollar books. I remember the days of AD&D when I could walk into a hobby shop and get a good adventure module for $15 bucks. Now, every body wants $30,$40, $50, $100 bucks for modules. The prices are getting ridiculous and is seems nothing cool can get made anymore withoug a kickstarter. Sad times for the RPG game industry. Due to the economy and $5 dollar a gallon gas prices, my campaign has come to a hiatus until further notice and there's no way I can keep caught up. If people keep paying these prices they will keep raising them. As of now, I'm not paying it anymore.
Yeah and at the same time you could get a cup of coffee for 25 cents, and gas was a dollar a gallon. Inflation my friend. Printing cost go up. Distribution cost go up. The company has to increase price to make a profit. I would agree with you more if Pathfinder cost more then their competition but its actually the opposite.
They have actively provided cheaper alternatives like allowing sites like the PFSRD, giving the option to buy PDFs, and giving us products like the Cardboard Minis which are cheaper then the normal minis.
Edit: Ninja'd by Joana! lol
I started gaming in 1990-1993, $20 bucks was enough at the time. I don't like using the computer for tabletop gaming as it burns my eyes and heats up the room. I am picky with RPG's, and I only pick the ones that I like and I'm not a big Shadowrun/Eclipse Phase fan. I used to play Palladiumbooks but their prices are so high on their books now too that I don't even buy from them anymore. I am running out of affordable options, and I can't get anything cool anymore. I have to pay California tax on Amazon.com so it's not as great as it used to be. I'm still paying $40 bucks for books, and I want to know when will it stop? How high will they take it before people put their foot down and say enough is enough... this is getting ridiculous. If I can't support a game I like by getting some more books to upgrade the campaign then what's the point in going on when the other guy has the diggitybomb campaign because he has all the books, upgrades, and cool stuff to make an even better game? I don't know how any company can stay in business by charging $100 bucks for an adventure module that just kills your PC's off. To me that's a ripoff and a waste of money.
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Why are you paying $14 in taxes for a $26 dollar book?
Because almost all their normal hardcovers are $26 on amazon and they have free shipping for $25 or over...so if your paying $40 a pop your doing it wrong.
Palladium books are even cheaper...last one I bought in a FLGS (always more expensive than online) was $18 (Triax 2 earlier this year)
I think your raging at an imaginary enemy homey.
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So, just so I understand.
You choose not to use the cheaper options provided by paizo. You choose to 'compete' for lack of better wording, with some guy blowing all of his cash on the extra stuff.
Honestly, I'm beginning to think the problem here is your uncompromising stance. First of all, campaigns are not a competition. Its a social activity, and having all the extras isn't anything important. It's about spending time with cool people pretending to save the world.
If you choose not to use PDFs or anything, you also don't need to spend all that money yourself. As a group, having a single copy of the books is perfectly fine. a $40 book is like $7 per person in the typical 5 man + DM play group. Everyone chip in, pick up the books for the group. Even the most expensive type of module you can get (an adventure path, which runs level 1-15 or so, and should take you over a year to finish if you play every week or two) costs $24 or so per person when chipped in this way.
The costs aren't crippling. Its your expectations crippling you.
I'm guessing there's a select few high-price books that have caused this thread to occur. I will definitely agree that $100 is far too much to pay for a single RPG book (Tome of Horrors Complete; Rappan Athuk Complete).
I'll echo what people say above and then some: You can access the PRD from Paizo's web site and play for free. You can download and print character sheets for virtually nothing. So if you're rolling your own world, you can, quite literally, play Pathfinder for free.
Even if you want portability, the PDF and/or iPad versions are ridiculously reasonable; my wife got the full PRD on her iBook for all of $4.99 plus $0.99 per add-on book; all told it was under $10. PDFs of the APs are $13.99, but even in my weekly game it's taking us 4-6 weeks per module, so that's a pretty good bargain.
What Paizo DOES do is make it incredibly easy to spend horrific sums of money for 'physical satisfaction'. I spent over $300 on hard copies of the rulebooks because I like the physical heft of a book in my hand. I've been stacking up APs at around $140/set, so I've easily spent another $600 on APs. Then for my RotRL gang I couldn't resist the WizKids minis, and dropped another $600.
So yes, I've spent over $1500 on something that I could have had for free. Paizo's a great enabler, and a great marketing machine, but I'm well aware I didn't have to spend more than $200 all-told for all the APs I've run my players through. Paizo just makes it easy to spend more. (And yeah, we're that group that has filet mignon shish kebabs or seared ahi for our lunches -- welcome to the S.F. Bay Area, where housing, gas, and insurance cost so much that everything else seems trivial in comparison).
EDIT: And in case I sound like an idiot (fairly commonplace, I'm afraid), my friend spent over $200 on Hero Labs and all the Pathfinder plug-ins, just so he wouldn't have to worry about 'all those rules. Hero Labs just tells me what to do and I do it.')
Adventure-A-Week has reasonably-priced modules, SuperSlayer.
In the supplementary sourcebook department, nothing we sell goes for more than $0.99.
Daron Woodson
Abandoned Arts
I started gaming in 1990-1993, $20 bucks was enough at the time. I don't like using the computer for tabletop gaming as it burns my eyes and heats up the room. I am picky with RPG's, and I only pick the ones that I like and I'm not a big Shadowrun/Eclipse Phase fan. I used to play Palladiumbooks but their prices are so high on their books now too that I don't even buy from them anymore. I am running out of affordable options, and I can't get anything cool anymore. I have to pay California tax on Amazon.com so it's not as great as it used to be. I'm still paying $40 bucks for books, and I want to know when will it stop? How high will they take it before people put their foot down and say enough is enough... this is getting ridiculous. If I can't support a game I like by getting some more books to upgrade the campaign then what's the point in going on when the other guy has the diggitybomb campaign because he has all the books, upgrades, and cool stuff to make an even better game? I don't know how any company can stay in business by charging $100 bucks for an adventure module that just kills your PC's off. To me that's a ripoff and a waste of money.
Okay, one 1990 dollar is $1.75 today, so that $20 purchase should now cost $35.
And if you're not talking about Paizo products, then this thread doesn't belong in Pathfinder RPG General Discussion but in Gamer Talk.
Thanks to all for responding. I refuse to accept low standards for myself or the easy route, as I have set my standards high that's why I have a library of books in my house because I chose to pay for good deals and affordable prices. I have learned not to ever trust a computer as I have had mine crash a few times losing everything I built up on it for years. I also enjoy writing with pen and pencil rather typing stuff out, I am more creative that way. I'm speaking on behalf of all prices I see on this website, and like I've stated when will it stop? I feel some companies(Frog God) may be taking advantage of the Kickstarter also because alot of these kickstarter's these companies get more than they asked for in the first place. What are they doing with this extra money, and why have another one so soon after getting so much extra cash? I was trying to shop here the other night but I simply couldn't find a product that I thought was price fair so I canceled my order. In the end it just angers me, and I feel this is a hobby that is getting too expensive regardless of the cheap freebie shortcuts.
Just because something's free doesn't mean it's of little value (although that is sometimes the case). Hollow's Last Hope and We Be Goblins! are two of the highest-quality 1st-level adventures I've ever read/run.
Personally, I, like you, can't read/prep digitally. I still use hardcopies and pen and paper. But I find the PDFs and online resources invaluable for quick reference rather than flipping through multiple books trying to remember where I saw that particular spell/feat/whatever.
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Play Warhammer some time and PF will look like the poor mans hobby.
One thing I personally did was get an e-reader (I got a Kindle Fire). That way, you end up saving money over all by sticking with the PDFs and it doesn't heat up the room nor does it hurt your eyes. Plus, at least this was good for me and my back issues, I don't have to lug 100 pounds of books. I've saved quite a bit of money on the rules and APs for it so maybe that can help you out.
And I'll echo again what people have said about the SRD. There are groups here that I know of where nobody owns an actual copy of Pathfinder and they just game with the SRD and have fun.
Maybe I'm just looking at this from the eyes of a guy that played Warhammer 40K. Now THAT is a game that requires disposable income. ;)
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Superslayer, I'll just point out that if you buy the PDFs from Paizo, they keep them on file for you. Even if your computer completely and irrecoverably dies you can always download the files again for free once you've replaced the computer.
Joana, wow!
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Superslayer, I'll just point out that if you buy the PDFs from Paizo, they keep them on file for you. Even if your computer completely and irrecoverably dies you can always download the files again for free once you've replaced the computer.
Joana, wow!
In addition, unlike the hardcovers, any errata in the main rules line that is put into the books gets automatically updated into the PDFs you own on this website. For free. So whenever there is a second printing of a rulebook, you get that applied to the PDFs on your account file for free.
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Really? I'm sorry man but holy crap all I am seeing here is you whine, people respond to help out, then you whine out how that won't work for you.
You can literally get all the books for free online!
your answer: But computers heat up my house and it might crash and loose all that free stuff I was looking up.
You can roll up your own campaigns, or just go else ware to buy the modules for those prices you mentioned.
your answer: No my standards are too high, I need the physical copy and I want to by from this company whom I want people to stop buying from so they'll drop their prices...
-_-
really?
I started Pathfinder with nothing but my friend's core rulebook. I never had the luxury of buying the weekly or monthly or whatever modules, Me and my gang rolled up our own campaigns, monsters, and world. Sure they weren't near as well written or polished as a module, but damn did we have good times.
So if your gonna show up here and rant about prices and how hard it is for poor old you, then tell those who offer suggestions and show you ways around your situation that even adapt to your "high standards", please have the courtesy to not insult them by ignoring the great ideas and copping out with s&!#ty High standards crap.
Ok... rant over. I apologize for that. Have a wonderful day!
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Our group has agreed to split the cost of the AP's. Assuming four players, that's $5 each for a lot of entertainment.
I got my Core Rulebook as a birthday gift.
And yeah, I'm not going to complain about the prices.
There are bigger problems in the economy, if you ask me.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I guess I see what you mean, but since you specifically cite adventures, and all of our adventures are priced well below your complaint-threshhold of $30, I don't really see this as a Paizo problem.
As far as Frog God goes, that's a hobby company run by one guy and a bunch of dedicated freelancers. They have no office, no real company to speak of, and produce their products as a labor of love at costs that are higher than those a company like Paizo or Wizards of the Coast would be willing to do.
So really, yeah, huge multi-hundred-page books filled with illustrations and complicated math ARE a luxury good, and are priced accordingly, especially when they are produced in what amounts to someone's spare time, as a labor of love.
Coffee, movies, video games, fast food, slow food, airplane flights, hotel rooms... all of these things cost more than they did in 1985, too.
You can run a campaign for years with a one-time investment of a couple rules books. You don't have to buy every supplemental book that ever comes out and you don't need to buy written adventures either. Those of us who write the adventures might like it, but it's not like you can't write your own. I know because I've done it for years. I've also later sold some of those scenarios.
I just want it pointed out again that Pathfinder can be played and run completely free of charge.
www.d20pfsrd.com
www.paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/
The SRD has near everything from every Pathfinder book available and a growing collection of 3rd Party content to pick and choose from and is constantly being updated with new content from recently-released books.
The PRD has the most up-to-date postings of all of the content in the Pathfinder hardcovers (Core, APG, UC, UM, ARG, and the Bestiaries), and might be a little easier to find things in.
The only time you actually NEED to shell-out any money for things is for Adventure Paths and Modules, or if you plan on playing in the Pathfinder Society games (I think).
My friends and I are not rich by any stretch of the imagination, and we couldn't possibly play Pathfinder without these free resources that Paizo allows through the OGL.
Hmmm...if I'm responding to the idea that tabletop rpg's are becoming a rich man's hobby, I would say no. Sure, if I bought everything I wanted, then I would have to declare bankruptcy, but that could be true of a lot of things. It's only a rich man's hobby if you make it one.
I don't exactly remember prices from 1993 and I can't speak for other games, but let's assume each rulebook for AD&D was $20.00. That's $60 plus tax.
The Pathfinder Core Rulebook is $31.49 on Amazon, and the Bestiary is $26.39, both brand new with free shipping. That's $57.88. Add tax since you live in California. I would argue that with that $57.88 you get more bang for your buck - there's more material offered in the Pathfinder books than the 2nd ed. of AD&D. Lastly, you and your players can pick up more options, monsters, treasures, etc. on the online srd and print them out.
You can pick up Pathfinder modules for $12 to $14 on Amazon as well, probably a little more than a typical 32-page module from 1993. However, Dungeon is no longer available. This has brought up the cost of getting well designed adventures. That wasn't the point you were making, but I do find getting adventures costs more due to the loss of this magazine.
Sure, there are RPG books that cost over $100, but these are luxuries. Not owning these books doesn't prevent you from a good game. I don't own a single book that cost me more that $50 and I feel I have more than a lifetime of roleplaying.
It really is about what you want. The core rules, the advanced rules, ultimate combat, ultimate magic, and the advance race guide among a lot of others are apart of the SRD.
That is a lot for free. Perhaps not the prefered format but free.
There are a host of free adventures out there of all levels.
I had to pay $80 for the CRB, because that is what we are charged here in Australia by our FLGS.
That being said, it was the best $80 I've ever spent, though ironically I rarely use it now because of the free online content.
I've run my campaign for over a year for a group of 7 players with just my copy because of the free online content. I've started a Pathfinder club at the school I teach at with just my copy of the CRB for 10 students.
All I hear from these complaints is that that Paizo is doing a great job producing excellent products at a prolific rate. Somebody is jealous that someone he knows can afford the dead-tree editions of the books he would like to own.
I could have a similar problem with my other hobby: Lego. I can spend time on the web looking at other people's creations and I could come away being jealous of how much Lego other people have, or I can be inspired by their creativity.
Old people and inflation they never mix, they only look at the prices and never their income (which is not to say they will keep pace going forward, we live in different times now). Google turned up a nice blog post about the "high" prices of RPG books :
http://www.lloydwrites.com/2011/12/highpricesrpgs/
Superslayer ... basically the prices went nowhere, adjusted for inflation, it's your perception of them which has changed.
I agree, and to add to the wage side of it, look at what minimum wage was in 1975, 1985, and today.
What it always comes down to is how far do you want to go. When we started we had the basic books (DMG, PHB, MM) and that was it. We used grid paper, pennies, and 1 set of dice. Over time I bought some figures and paint, an adventure and more dice. New job and I bought even more printed books, more dice, lots more dice (Yes I am sick). Today I have a much better job and so I buy a case of figures, more dice, lots of PDFs, some books, more dice.... well you get the picture. This hobby is about as costly as you want it to be.
I see two things happening at once.
In a way, tabletop RPG marathons have never been more affordable. With free retro clones, classic gaming books sold as low or no cost PDFs and huge wikis on most campaign settings, the main cost is the internet bill and some dice.
In another way, tabletop games have never been more expensive. Full-color hardcover books cost some serious cheddar... and virtually every publisher has trended to that. You can lose yourself in maps, tokens, minis and supplemental publications to a financial magnitude previously unheard-of. Many of us will buy a physical rulebook only to later buy the PDF, and vice-versa.
Honestly, I think each of us needs to find our own middle-ground in the current environment. I know neither of these extremes suit my taste or play style. For example, I settle on cardboard tokens and minis (word up to Pathfinder Pawns) and tend to only buy physical copies of core rulebooks and books with art content that's a good example of the setting.
I've got several hobbies still I have had for years. DnD is the oldest, at over 25 years. The next oldest is miniature games. You wanna talk about costs?
Even playing with mini's I have had for over 10 years it isn't cheap. GW in particular is bad about this, as they have a nasty tendency to up the cost of everything yearly because they can. About the only reason I can still play their games is an aging collection of miniatures and forcing myself to limit it to just one army. Privateer Press is slightly better, but it still isn't anywhere near as cheap as an RPG.
It sounds like you haven't set yourself a high standard, instead you have fallen into that trap of "to have fun, I must have everything, and I need a physical copy, and if I can't have that the game will no longer be fun."
You might want to think about what is the fun part of gaming for you. Is it getting together with your friends, telling a good story and rolling some dice? You don't need every book printed to do that. Is it owning every book and pouring over them to find the perfectly optimized character to break a game and trivialize encounters? You still don't need every book, although you'll probably want more than the previous option.
These days I have a wife and kid, between them and the economy, every gaming dollar is precious. So I use things like the PFSRD site, online reviewers, the forums, to make sure I get product I'm happy with. I usually get pdfs as well but I like my tech toys. You might want to try some of the same approach to help you be happier with your purchases.
Tabletop RPGs a Rich Man's Hobby?
Pft... I'm pretty poor, and actually playing table top rpgs has more replay value than my video games.
So no, TRPGs are not a rich man's hobby,
collecting a library however is...
Superslayer be glad you don't live in Zimbabwe prices went up ludicrously fast. hyperinflation
SuperSlayer, I see where you're coming from but I have to disagree. I "feel the crunch" more now than when I was buying 2E books (all my AD&D stuff was bought by my parents since child-labor laws [and laziness] prevented me from working), but I feel it more, now, not because the overall cost is higher (it's actually lower, as Joana pointed out), but because I have significantly greater monetary responsibilities like two kids, two cars, and a mortgage. I can't buy nearly the volume of gaming stuff that I could back in the day, but I can afford to play. Paizo, in particular, helps out quite a bit with inexpensive (and portable) PDFs and the PRD.
In summary, I hope you won't quit gaming on account of inflation.
Happy gaming!
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Oh, it sure is ... Let me tell you, the group I am playing with today shelled out $100 for today's game. Burgers, sides, drinks and what not for nine folks adds up quick. ;)
Seriously, if you want to play the game, and insist of having physical copies, you really just need to shell out for the core books. Everything else is frosting.
Also, as tot the argument for not using a technology based solution ( having lost free content from system crashes, drive failure, etc. ), you can run with a local copy as well as an archived copied stored in a location such as Dropbox or some other cloud based solution. This solves the "oh no, I lost a bunch of free stuff" in the case of free PDFs.
As to the modules you are looking at, what modules are you seeing listed at $100???? I have never seen a price point like that for an individual module.
I've spent a lot on my books and stuff, but when I try to estimate a dollar value on it in terms of $$$ per hour of entertainment I don't even get 1c an hour. Compare that to going to the movies, theme parks, live sports, concerts, whatever. Its dirt cheap entertainment.
I could see how collectors could find it a bit tough trying to buy every product that Paizo releases, but you can choose to not do that. I'd like to collect sports cars, but definitely cannot afford to.
Oh, it sure is ... Let me tell you, the group I am playing with today shelled out $100 for today's game. Burgers, sides, drinks and what not for nine folks adds up quick. ;)
Seriously, if you want to play the game, and insist of having physical copies, you really just need to shell out for the core books. Everything else is frosting.
Also, as tot the argument for not using a technology based solution ( having lost free content from system crashes, drive failure, etc. ), you can run with a local copy as well as an archived copied stored in a location such as Dropbox or some other cloud based solution. This solves the "oh no, I lost a bunch of free stuff" in the case of free PDFs.
As to the modules you are looking at, what modules are you seeing listed at $100???? I have never seen a price point like that for an individual module.
Rappan Athuk hard copy. I'm still trying to squeeze the money or the PDF lol, unlike Superslayer, I prefer PDF's. There are a couple others out there as well that rack up that high, but they are, as has been mentioned, luxuries. Either that or massive tomes chock full of stuff that even at 100 bucks are a good deal for the price.
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Tabletop RPG's becoming a rich man's hobby?
Edit: To elaborate, I could go to my public library, use the free internet there to copy down what I needed of the rules onto notebook paper, and make up my own games for the price of the pencil and paper. I wouldn't even need dice, I could make number chits and pull them out of a hat.
What you are complaining about is paying for the carpeting on your floor instead of the roof over your head.
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Ummn RPGs have never really been cheap. For the most part most of the people I have gamed with have been from a middle class or wealthy background. Poorer players either used the groups books, spent more % of their discreationary income or went without being blunt.
I'm not 100% sure but RPGs and games like Magic the Gathering are probably not to popular in the slums. Its really only expensive if you gave a gotta get em all mentality. When I was younger I was probably spending 2-3k a year on RPG stuff, now its maybe $200 a year or so or a book every 2-3 months as I have alot less time and money these days.
Here if you bought 1 less cup of coffeee a week you could buy a PF book every 2 months or so. If one can't afford a cup of coffee a week odds are any hobby is gonna be pricey relative to your income. I like my coffee so I don't really have to make that choice but I can't or won't afford all the RPG books I want. Learnt that lesson the hard way in 3rd ed days as I have bookshelvs and boxes full of RPG stuff.
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The prices are getting so high on these books these days. $50-$100 dollar books. I remember the days of AD&D when I could walk into a hobby shop and get a good adventure module for $15 bucks. Now, every body wants $30,$40, $50, $100 bucks for modules. The prices are getting ridiculous and is seems nothing cool can get made anymore withoug a kickstarter. Sad times for the RPG game industry. Due to the economy and $5 dollar a gallon gas prices, my campaign has come to a hiatus until further notice and there's no way I can keep caught up. If people keep paying these prices they will keep raising them. As of now, I'm not paying it anymore.
The problem is not Pathfinder is more expensive. The problem is, life is more expensive.
If you want an expensive hobby, look at Games Workshop.
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Folks, please be respectful to one another.
And if nothing else, this is a good example of why I spend gaming dollars with Paizo. Whether I agree with them all the time, it is nice to see that even on a Saturday the proverbial powers that be look in and respond to customers.
I know my gaming dollars to TSR/WoTC/GW never got me that.
There are intangibles that get hard to put a price tag on.