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If I don't buy another RPG book, I'll have enough stuff to play PF until I die, probably...
Not bad for my five years as a subscriber.
I figure that if Paizo do a new edition I could stop buying anything and still have a ton of fun.
I have a budget, I stick to it and all is well; I go over it and things are bad.
There aren't many people getting rich off gaming either. With rich often being defined as being able to afford health insurance.
I started gaming in 1990-1993, $20 bucks was enough at the time. I don't like using the computer for tabletop gaming as it burns my eyes and heats up the room. I am picky with RPG's, and I only pick the ones that I like and I'm not a big Shadowrun/Eclipse Phase fan. I used to play Palladiumbooks but their prices are so high on their books now too that I don't even buy from them anymore. I am running out of affordable options, and I can't get anything cool anymore. I have to pay California tax on Amazon.com so it's not as great as it used to be. I'm still paying $40 bucks for books, and I want to know when will it stop? How high will they take it before people put their foot down and say enough is enough... this is getting ridiculous. If I can't support a game I like by getting some more books to upgrade the campaign then what's the point in going on when the other guy has the diggitybomb campaign because he has all the books, upgrades, and cool stuff to make an even better game? I don't know how any company can stay in business by charging $100 bucks for an adventure module that just kills your PC's off. To me that's a ripoff and a waste of money.
I don't mean to say it's all in your head, but... it is.
I just went up to my old collection and pulled down every hardcover book of comparable size from 1995 and earlier. Many of these are in black and white on non-glossy paper, and they cost $30 a piece. The extra $10 you pay for a Paizo hardback is clearly what goes for the full color art on almost every page and the print quality. Comparable books only show up in the 3.5 era, and they cost exactly the same as what Paizo charges, or more.
The price for a full-color hardcover RPG book as basically not changed at all. The difference is that there are more of them now... but you still don't need to buy them to use them.
Oh trust me I do need to buy these wonderful books and the ones I feel are worthy of my cash are the ones that will sit on my shelf. I prefer to buy my books new, as I have acquired some used books before with faded wording, and dried bloody boogers encased on the pages. Ewww yuck! (You never know where the hands of these past owners of these books have been.) So I really enjoy the smell of a fresh new book, one that fills my mind with magic, ideas, wonderful stories of adventure, and queens of beauty enslaved by the demonically possessed Hill Giant's of hell.
Whenever I went to the bookstore as a kid there was one section that always shined brighter than the other ones, and that was the RPG game section. They were the books I felt I got the most use out of, and felt I truly got my money's worth every time. They are simply modern day works of art to me, priceless portals to other realms.
PDF's are great of course, but frankly I just don't use them much maybe one day when I acquire a larger monitor they will be of more use to me. I will be checking out some of the free stuff tho, and how could you not want to in this modern age of tabletop Roleplaying games.
I just went up to my old collection and pulled down every hardcover book of comparable size from 1995 and earlier. Many of these are in black and white on non-glossy paper, and they cost $30 a piece. The extra $10 you pay for a Paizo hardback is clearly what goes for the full color art on almost every page and the print quality. Comparable books only show up in the 3.5 era, and they cost exactly the same as what Paizo charges, or more.
I would also add to this that the Pathfinder core book covers both the DMG and PHB from that other company. So the core rule book's extra $10 could be for the additional content rather then force you to buy two "core" books. ;-)
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It felt like a rich mans hobby in 1979 when I was 7 years old and just started playing. A lot of my initial books came from garage sales and as gifts for birthdays and such until it suddenly became "devil worship" to play or even read these books.
But I can see it being viewed as a rich mans hobby as the books are and can be really pricey, especially for a completionist as myself.
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Considering the amount of enjoyment I can get out of each book I buy, I honestly consider roleplaying one of the cheapest hobbies around. Sure, going full collectionist on it can be expensive, but if you just buy the things you use, it's hard to find a better cost/enjoyment ratio out there.
For instance, I started playing Pathfinder in December 2009, and my group averages around 1 session per month, with our sessions lasting an average of 6 hours each. That means we've played somewhere around 210 hours, which if you multiply by the number of players (we're 7 in total), amounts to 1,470 man-hours of entertainment derived from the Core Rulebook.
The Core Rulebook is priced at 49.99 USD (not sure if it was the same when I bought it, but the difference shouldn't be too big), meaning that each of us has been paying 3 cents per hour for some of the most entertaining times we remember. And it keeps getting cheaper the more we use it.
3 cents, per hour, and decreasing.
Besides watching the grass grow or running naked, there are not many things you can enjoy so much for so little (assuming you enjoy watching the grass grow. Naked running, well, that must have its own charms, I suppose).
If you will forgive me for being a bit nostalgic, I remember back in the early 80s I started playing RuneQuest. At the time it was the second biggest RPG in the world, and in my opinion it was decades ahead of it's time.
I remember saving up my milk money ($.25 a day) plus my allowance ($1 a week) until I had enough money to buy the Cults of Prax (I don't remember exactly how much it was. $15 or $20?). It is one of the best source books ever produced. One hundred and twelve pages and it had a total of fifteen gods and their cults. And not a single stat block. Compare that to the 3 or 4 deities per page in the original Deities & Demigods D&D book with their bestiary like entries.
When I grew older and had more money I would go to game stores just wish there was something I could spend my money on, but they just didn't publish at the same rate that they do today. When 2nd edition D&D came out I bought the core rules to give it a try (I was still playing RuneQuest at the time, now 3rd edition), but I really didn't get into it.
It was not until the 3rd edition of D&D came out that I really jumped on board. Then there was plenty to spend my money on. Then they really cranked up the pace and for the first time in my life I could not keep up. It was about this time that I realized that I didn't want to keep up. Bloat was in full force. I bought 3.5 core and four supplement books, but ignored everything else. I was not going to get sucked in again.
When 4th edition came put I gave up altogether. I continued to play with 3.5 until Pathfinder came online. So far I have bought the Core, Bestiary, and the APG. Everything else is (in my opinion) not worth it. I will cherry pick a few things from the SRD, but that's about it.
And that is how I keep things cheap. I buy only what I think is worthwhile. I support Paizo by buying adventure paths and other things when I can, but I can't afford to just buy things unless I really need (aka "want") them.
I dont understand how this could be a rich mans hobby if you compare it to ANY OTHER HOBBY. I bought the slumbering tsar from frog god games, for around $100 i think (dont remember the exact price). I will be running that adventure for years... years. What hobby on earth can i get literally hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of of one $100 purchase? Yes, if you want everything in exactly the fashion you want it, then it can cost alot of money. I myself have spent stupid amounts of money on my rpg hobby. I dont HAVE to spend it. I dont NEED a case of new minis to play or every source book. I need the core rules, and an adventure. Heck I dont even really need the core rules, or a setting book, paizo offers me most of that for free in the prd and the pathfinder wiki. All I HAVE to buy is the adventure, and even that isnt required i can make my own if money is tight.
The truth of the matter is, I literally dont have to give paizo a single penny and I can make full use of pathfinder. I DO give paizo many pennies because they produce awesome products that I love, and because these products make my hobby easier and more convenient. But they are by no means required.
How to minimise cost around the table:
1. Do NOT be a completist.... It is not (no mater how sad this sounds) necessary for you to have every book ever made.
2. The Internet - SRDs PRDs and fan resources. All the rules, plus character-sheets, cheat-sheets, all are out there for free.
2.a The Printer and photocopier are your friend. Print all the rules you need for your character. Put print outs in the manilla folder that you carry character in.
2.b Perram's spell cards - for any magic using class. These save huge amounts of time.
3. DM buys DM Books - Players buy Player Books.
4. If you have the money a Tablet and PDFs no need to get a hernia lugging 100kg worth of dead tree around. Tablets start around the cost of two to 3 big books in the end you are saving more getting the PDFs.
I dont understand how this could be a rich mans hobby if you compare it to ANY OTHER HOBBY. I bought the slumbering tsar from frog god games, for around $100 i think (dont remember the exact price). I will be running that adventure for years... years. What hobby on earth can i get literally hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of of one $100 purchase? Yes, if you want everything in exactly the fashion you want it, then it can cost alot of money. I myself have spent stupid amounts of money on my rpg hobby. I dont HAVE to spend it. I dont NEED a case of new minis to play or every source book. I need the core rules, and an adventure. Heck I dont even really need the core rules, or a setting book, paizo offers me most of that for free in the prd and the pathfinder wiki. All I HAVE to buy is the adventure, and even that isnt required i can make my own if money is tight.
The truth of the matter is, I literally dont have to give paizo a single penny and I can make full use of pathfinder. I DO give paizo many pennies because they produce awesome products that I love, and because these products make my hobby easier and more convenient. But they are by no means required.
You paid a $100 bucks for an adventure that will just kill your PC's off. Where is payoff and fullfillment of joy with that purchase? I don't have to buy new books no, and I don't have to go watch new movies either... I can just stay at home and watch lame ass tv over and over. There's no fun in that, the human brain can't create every idea that's available that's why it helps to get supplements etc as long as they are a reasonable price. You may think your adventures are awesome and great, but that doesn't mean your PC's will.
You paid a $100 bucks for an adventure that will just kill your PC's off. Where is payoff and fullfillment of joy with that purchase? I don't have to buy new books no, and I don't have to go watch new movies either... I can just stay at home and watch lame ass tv over and over. There's no fun in that, the human brain can't create every idea that's available that's why it helps to get supplements etc as long as they are a reasonable price. You may think your adventures are awesome and great, but that doesn't mean your PC's will.I dont understand how this could be a rich mans hobby if you compare it to ANY OTHER HOBBY. I bought the slumbering tsar from frog god games, for around $100 i think (dont remember the exact price). I will be running that adventure for years... years. What hobby on earth can i get literally hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of of one $100 purchase? Yes, if you want everything in exactly the fashion you want it, then it can cost alot of money. I myself have spent stupid amounts of money on my rpg hobby. I dont HAVE to spend it. I dont NEED a case of new minis to play or every source book. I need the core rules, and an adventure. Heck I dont even really need the core rules, or a setting book, paizo offers me most of that for free in the prd and the pathfinder wiki. All I HAVE to buy is the adventure, and even that isnt required i can make my own if money is tight.
The truth of the matter is, I literally dont have to give paizo a single penny and I can make full use of pathfinder. I DO give paizo many pennies because they produce awesome products that I love, and because these products make my hobby easier and more convenient. But they are by no means required.
I dont know anybody who runs stuff as written - All good GMs tailor a module or AP to their players.
I like tough games I like to know that my character can die. Other people I play with hate that with a passion... our GM balances that out for all of us. $100 the Slumbering Tzar is a good story and a lot of fun. Only an AHAT of monumental proportions will kill off a party for the fun of it.
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You paid a $100 bucks for an adventure that will just kill your PC's off. Where is payoff and fullfillment of joy with that purchase?
There are people that enjoy high-lethality in their games, and feel fulfilled when they beat the odds and have a PC survive. Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed.
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I remember waaaay back when, once upon a time, when 2nd Ed AD&D ruled the tabletop nation...um, like, the very early 1990's.
My mother told me that she was getting my brother a Ghostbusters proton pack toy, and offered me $20 to get what I wanted. I grabbed $5 from my stash of unspent allowance and rode my bike to the bookstore so I could buy the (a bit out of my price range normally) Player's Handbook.
And thus did the clouds part and the angels sing and I got to have my very own rulebook! I remember my parents complaining that $20 would fill the Jeep Cherokee's gas tank and how EXPENSIVE that was...it made me grateful that I was able to afford a rule book.
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The prices are getting so high on these books these days. $50-$100 dollar books. I remember the days of AD&D when I could walk into a hobby shop and get a good adventure module for $15 bucks. Now, every body wants $30,$40, $50, $100 bucks for modules. The prices are getting ridiculous...
I agree that this can be an expensive hobby if one lets it (and I am quite guilty of being a completionist), but is your complaint really that the prices of RPG books and whatnot have not stayed the same since the mid 1990's? Did you really expect them to be the same after 17 years? Just about everything has gone up in price since then; from the price of food and gas, to, well, our personal entertainment... Just look at the price of a movie ticket now as compared to back then...
The prices are getting so high on these books these days. $50-$100 dollar books. I remember the days of AD&D when I could walk into a hobby shop and get a good adventure module for $15 bucks. Now, every body wants $30,$40, $50, $100 bucks for modules. The prices are getting ridiculous...I agree that this can be an expensive hobby if one lets it (and I am quite guilty of being a completionist), but is your complaint really that the prices of RPG books and whatnot have not stayed the same since the mid 1990's? Did you really expect them to be the same after 17 years? Just about everything has gone up in price since then; from the price of food and gas, to, well, our personal entertainment... Just look at the price of a movie ticket now as compared to back then...
Yeah I'm aware the prices have gone up that's why I made a thread about expensive tabletop RPG products. I can go to a dollar theater and see a movie for a buck!
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You can also go online and find a third edition PH for ~$25, DMG for ~$10 and MM for ~$15 ... all which would relate to your dollar theater example.
You are specifically speaking of new product, which would correspond with going to a movie in a first run theater.
That said, if you are are wanting to pick up the latest editions, you will spend more than you would going for previous versions of a game (or in the case of PF, the game from which it evolved).
That being the case, the amount you would pay for the PF core book is surprising close to what you would pay for a 3rd edition PH and DMG combined from the above links ... just sayin'.
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Yeah I'm aware the prices have gone up
But you didn't answer my question :-)
Did you really expect the prices to remain relatively the same after a decade or more?
If that is not your complaint, then are you just simply pining for the days of yore when life was less expensive?
Because if that's the case, then I can certainly feel your pain, but it's also an issue that goes far beyond just RPGs...
So yeah, costs have gone up, but so has the quality of the product (or is that also one of your complaints?)...
I mean the books produced today are larger (thus containing more information), and use far better materials...
Now one can argue the need for all of the colorful and flashy art used today, but that aside, even most of the 3rd party publisher books that tend to never use color art are of better quality (at least in the materials that they use) than the books made prior to 3rd edition D&D...
A friend of mine and I had a similar discussion about the price of video games recently. I pointed out that video game prices have pretty much remained the same, if adjusted for inflation. A 30 dollar AD&D DMG from 1980 would be around 80 dollars today. So really, a 50 dollar Core Rule Book is a bargain in today's market.
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I bought the Slumbing Tsar and Rappan Athuk from the kickstarter project. My players were warned up front that it is a deadly dungeon crawl where any encounter could kill them.
They received their Con as bonus XP and had a 32 attribute build.
And going old school of only XP if the character is in the encounter.
But they are loving it, we RP most sessions with maybe one encounter over 4 hrs, sometimes two. Last session their encounter was under a bridge, huddled in the dark being splashed at from the river by migrating trout that scared them half to death...
Now they have not even scratched the surface of the campaign, three sessions in, and have spend more than half their time in town.
Like any adventure, it has stats, encounters, and puzzles, but most importantly it does not have a timeline, or a railroad.
They can go where they want, when they want.
I'm doing the same with Curse of the Crimson Throne to an extent, making the AP encounters just one of many happening as part of an integrated background for the players, so they have an investment in the setting and reason to fight for it.
So for these two campaigns, no more books are needed, I have everything I need. I will buy more, but that's for personal reasons (gotta collect them all..)
I also run Star Wars d6. Now that is an old system, no longer supported, but still fun. There are plenty of games out there that are fantastic and could suit your group, game style and quality.
The guys here put out a great product, but if its not what your looking for, don't buy it, if it is, enjoy the fact that they can still make it, and their prices are within reason.
In Australia I pay Import tax and stupid Aussie tax on computer games and software, often double the US prices. Now these might not be real taxes, but they feel that way, so I find other means to get things I want including overseas purchase.
If a gaming group invested $50 per player, bought a couple of players guides and one adventure path, and the bestiaries it uses, then they would not need any more books for six to twelve months (mine took 2 years). And for that timeframe its not a large investment for a hobby when a weekly laser tag can cost $25 or what ever the WoW subscription is these days.
So from a pricing perspective, Pathfinder is one of the cheapest entry level games out there (its even got a beginner box) and at least its still supported and evolving.
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Hobbies are generally as expensive as you make them. Every hobby I have ever had can be enjoyed at any level from "cheap and dirty" to "potential divorce proceedings."
Some examples:
Hunting. A decent hunting rifle can be had for a couple hundred bucks. Less if you really search for bargains. That and some shells is all you "need". But most hunters I know have a dozen guns, some of which cost more than several of the cars I've purchased in my life.
Stargazing. You can get a very serviceable telescope able to give you impressive detail on Jupiter and Saturn, and even give you views of a couple hundred "deep sky" objects for a hundred bucks if you want to take the time to build it yourself (I did). Or you can spend thousands of dollars on diffraction limited apochromatic refractors mounted on computer controlled mounts (I did that too). Not to mention spending additional thousands of dollars on specialized eyepieces and other gear.
Music. I have a really neat guitar I purchased for $12 at the local pawn shop. It's the perfect "beater" guitar. I can take it camping or even boating without worrying about it. It doesn't sound all that great, but then I don't play all that great. It stays tuned and if played well, it will liven up a gathering. It hangs on the wall next to my Martin 000-M, which I would NEVER allow to be subjected that that sort of abuse. Guess which one I play most?
Anyway, it's a hobby. Spend what you need to have fun and can afford.
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It is expensive, but I enjoy it enough to purchase the books I want. I also purchase pdfs of ones that are useable, but not enough for me to have a physical copy of. I personally own the Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Gude, Advanced Race Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Equipment, Paths of Prestige, and all 3 Bestiaries. This is because I GM and play both. It also makes it easier on my players as they know those books are allowed in the campaign and since I can usually squeeze out books easier everyone gets the benefit.
I have two players who just started. Away from the table they utilize the PRD and d20pfsrd frequently. At the table they state what they wish to look at and we hand them a book.
In my neck of the wood, RPGs today cost roughly the same as they did 20 years ago. So that'd make them significantly cheaper (while still costing easily twice what they cost in the US).
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It felt like a rich mans hobby in 1979 when I was 7 years old and just started playing. A lot of my initial books came from garage sales and as gifts for birthdays and such until it suddenly became "devil worship" to play or even read these books.
But I can see it being viewed as a rich mans hobby as the books are and can be really pricey, especially for a completionist as myself.
Playing RPGs is cheap. Collecting RPGs is expensive.
But that's true for a lot of hobbies.
That's really the crux of the issue.
First of all, a hobby is a luxury. By definition it will take up disposable income, and you thus have to have disposable income to be able to engage in it. But hobby enthusiasts will find a way to cut corners and still enjoy the hobby if they can't afford the highest end of every aspect of it. (People cite Warhammer as an expensive hobby, and it is, but I spent relatively little money on it by having people pay me in pieces of my own 40K army in exhange for painting theirs. As an example of one way of saving money in a hobby that can absorb a lot of petty cash and then some.)
But there's the hobby itself, and then there is the additional hobby of collecting. Some gamers are just gamers. Some gamers are ALSO collectors.
Collecting, by definition, requires a lot of income. You want the best, the shiniest, and you want to collect All Four, then you have to pay out. Sure there are also ways to save some money, but depending on what your standards for collecting, you're going to end up spending a ton of money on it.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you want to be a collector, not simply a gamer, you will have to commit to spending the money on it. If you don't have the money, then you can't be a collector--at least not of the newest, top of the line, MSRP and then some stuff.
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Your avatar looks so judgmental next to a statement like that. Like it's peering deep into our souls and telling us to be nicer.
(It's a pretty cool effect, actually.)
You paid a $100 bucks for an adventure that will just kill your PC's off. Where is payoff and fullfillment of joy with that purchase? I don't have to buy new books no, and I don't have to go watch new movies either... I can just stay at home and watch lame ass tv over and over. There's no fun in that, the human brain can't create every idea that's available that's why it helps to get supplements etc as long as they are a reasonable price. You may think your adventures are awesome and great, but that doesn't mean your PC's will.I dont understand how this could be a rich mans hobby if you compare it to ANY OTHER HOBBY. I bought the slumbering tsar from frog god games, for around $100 i think (dont remember the exact price). I will be running that adventure for years... years. What hobby on earth can i get literally hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of of one $100 purchase? Yes, if you want everything in exactly the fashion you want it, then it can cost alot of money. I myself have spent stupid amounts of money on my rpg hobby. I dont HAVE to spend it. I dont NEED a case of new minis to play or every source book. I need the core rules, and an adventure. Heck I dont even really need the core rules, or a setting book, paizo offers me most of that for free in the prd and the pathfinder wiki. All I HAVE to buy is the adventure, and even that isnt required i can make my own if money is tight.
The truth of the matter is, I literally dont have to give paizo a single penny and I can make full use of pathfinder. I DO give paizo many pennies because they produce awesome products that I love, and because these products make my hobby easier and more convenient. But they are by no means required.
Way to miss the whole point of my post... and made a ton of assumptions about my gaming group. First you are assuming my gaming group has some issue with high difficulty games. This is false. We in fact find standard (paizo aps) adventures need beefing up for the characters we usually produce. Second you assume I did nothing about the lethality of the adventure as a gm... again, not true, there are a whole host of ways to deal with this. My choice was a hero point like system. No one has died yet most of the way through the first part of the story. Its been close, but the players have gotten through (which is the way we like it). I am quite sure my players enjoy the game as they ask me fairly often when the next session will be (usually a good indicator of continued interest).
I could have spent the 100 dollars on a paizo AP instead and the result would have been the same.
It felt like a rich mans hobby in 1979 when I was 7 years old and just started playing. A lot of my initial books came from garage sales and as gifts for birthdays and such until it suddenly became "devil worship" to play or even read these books.
But I can see it being viewed as a rich mans hobby as the books are and can be really pricey, especially for a completionist as myself.
Playing RPGs is cheap. Collecting RPGs is expensive.
But that's true for a lot of hobbies.
That's really the crux of the issue.
First of all, a hobby is a luxury. By definition it will take up disposable income, and you thus have to have disposable income to be able to engage in it. But hobby enthusiasts will find a way to cut corners and still enjoy the hobby if they can't afford the highest end of every aspect of it. (People cite Warhammer as an expensive hobby, and it is, but I spent relatively little money on it by having people pay me in pieces of my own 40K army in exhange for painting theirs. As an example of one way of saving money in a hobby that can absorb a lot of petty cash and then some.)
But there's the hobby itself, and then there is the additional hobby of collecting. Some gamers are just gamers. Some gamers are ALSO collectors.
Collecting, by definition, requires a lot of income. You want the best, the shiniest, and you want to collect All Four, then you have to pay out. Sure there are also ways to save some money, but depending on what your standards for collecting, you're going to end up spending a ton of money on it.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you want to be a collector, not simply a gamer, you will have to commit to spending the money on it. If you don't have the money, then you can't be a collector--at least not of the newest, top of the line, MSRP and then some stuff.
Ah this is false. You don't have to spend a dime.
Ah this is false. You don't have to spend a dime.As a collector, I would very much like to know how to collect things without spending any money on them. And have them be things I would WANT to collect.
Commit the cool, cool crime of robbery?
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Ah this is false. You don't have to spend a dime.As a collector, I would very much like to know how to collect things without spending any money on them. And have them be things I would WANT to collect.
Make your own?
Commit the cool, cool crime of robbery?Ah this is false. You don't have to spend a dime.As a collector, I would very much like to know how to collect things without spending any money on them. And have them be things I would WANT to collect.
That or hope someone else buys you the stuff, I guess. Which just makes you the recipient of another person's fortune, one way or the other.
Make your own?Ah this is false. You don't have to spend a dime.As a collector, I would very much like to know how to collect things without spending any money on them. And have them be things I would WANT to collect.
One doesn't usually "collect" what one makes for themselves. That's just... making stuff for yourself. There's gray lines, I guess.
At least when I meant "collector" I meant someone who enjoys a type of product produced by someone else and is willing to barter or pay for getting as many high quality copies/editions/versions/releases of said product as they possibly can.
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Ah this is false. You don't have to spend a dime.As a collector, I would very much like to know how to collect things without spending any money on them. And have them be things I would WANT to collect.
I just gave away my entire 3.0 and 3.5 collection along with several 3pp books and all my Dungeon and Dragon Magazines to a friend for his birthday. I didn't add it all up but I would estimate it at about $2500 or more in stuff that was in near mint to mint condition. I have no use for it and he does. I could have sold it all off but I would rather give it to a friend.
One doesn't usually "collect" what one makes for themselves. That's just... making stuff for yourself. There's gray lines, I guess.At least when I meant "collector" I meant someone who enjoys a type of product produced by someone else and is willing to barter or pay for getting as many high quality copies/editions/versions/releases of said product as they possibly can.
I suppose a smiley emoticon would have helped there...
Yeah, I get what you are saying, but at the same time I have a couple of hobbies where I "collect" what I make myself.
I tie flies. I need lots of flies for the fishing I do. I need them in batches. If I'm going fishing for trout in beaver ponds, I need lots of tiny dry flies, usually Addams or Light Cahills or even my own moose-hair mosquitoes.. If I'm fishing in a river I need wet flies, nymphs or even grubby or wormy flies. And I need enough of each of them that I can lose some and replace them. So my "collection" of flies is pretty extensive and I've tied the vast majority of them.
I also make miniatures and terrain. I buy them too, but I make quite a few. I have made several "sets" that I made specifically to cover a hole in my "collection".
I make telescopes too. So my telescope "collection" includes three that I made myself.
I suppose it depends on what the purpose of the collection is. If the purpose is just to use the things, then making them yourself is actually a very good way to build a great collection of items. But if the purpose is to gather things from other places, especially if the goal includes treating the items as some sort of investment portfolio, then making your own doesn't really work so well.
Fortunately for me I have zero hobbies that are based around collecting expensive knick-knacks other people make just so I can say I have a bunch of them. I mostly only "collect" things I use, and since I use them I frequently end up making my own because it's cheaper and much easier to "collect" exactly what I need.
Obviously that means I don't collect things like stamps, coins, baseball cards, trademarked items, etc. I do collect dragons, model airplanes, telescopes, flies and a few other things, and in all cases a significant portion of my collection are things I made myself.
But that's just me.
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Like everything else over time most if not all prices on everything go up. It's simple economics. The era of getting tommorows rpg products today at yesterdays prices is long over. Companies have to adapt with increasing prices. Not to mention rpg companies like all other companies are not non-profit organizations. They need to make a profit to pay bills, employees etc. Don't believe me go into your nearest bookstore. Pick up Economics for dummies and look up the defination of inflation.
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Whenever I hear that "X hobby is expensive" I'm always inclined to think of three things:
1) This is that person's only hobby investment, and so they don't have an appreciation for the costs of other hobbies.
2) This is only one of a few, or several, hobbies that that person enjoys and when all things are considered, the feel of the cost of the hobby over time is directly proportional to that person's time or interest (or any other metric) in it relative to their other hobbies.
3) They are somewhere in the middle but have begun to recognize the cost of their hobbies relative to the fact that it's just plain more expensive to live, period. They are starting down a path of having to make 'hard choices' about what they can sustain in their financial situation and it's always easier to place the onus for one's inability to continue investing in something on the company responsible for it.
Well, take running as an example of another hobby. No costs, right? You have shoes and some old T-shirt and sweat pants, and you can go run anywhere. And that is true, after a fashion. If you start getting serious about it, you are going to need GOOD shoes, and why not stylish clothes designed for reducing air resistance, special water bottles and towels while you're at it? A special training program could up your results a little! Oh, and then you strain your knee, which means months of physical therapy to get back into it. Not to mention memberships in running clubs, costs for running various events around the country including hotel fees, travel costs, and so on...
RPGs come in at the very cheapest end, even if you spend relatively much on them.
One doesn't usually "collect" what one makes for themselves. That's just... making stuff for yourself. There's gray lines, I guess.At least when I meant "collector" I meant someone who enjoys a type of product produced by someone else and is willing to barter or pay for getting as many high quality copies/editions/versions/releases of said product as they possibly can.
I suppose a smiley emoticon would have helped there...
Yeah, I get what you are saying, but at the same time I have a couple of hobbies where I "collect" what I make myself.
I tie flies. I need lots of flies for the fishing I do. I need them in batches. If I'm going fishing for trout in beaver ponds, I need lots of tiny dry flies, usually Addams or Light Cahills or even my own moose-hair mosquitoes.. If I'm fishing in a river I need wet flies, nymphs or even grubby or wormy flies. And I need enough of each of them that I can lose some and replace them. So my "collection" of flies is pretty extensive and I've tied the vast majority of them.
I also make miniatures and terrain. I buy them too, but I make quite a few. I have made several "sets" that I made specifically to cover a hole in my "collection".
I make telescopes too. So my telescope "collection" includes three that I made myself.
I suppose it depends on what the purpose of the collection is. If the purpose is just to use the things, then making them yourself is actually a very good way to build a great collection of items. But if the purpose is to gather things from other places, especially if the goal includes treating the items as some sort of investment portfolio, then making your own doesn't really work so well. (snip)
I get what you're saying. I was thinking more about formal collectors. My original post was aimed at the discussion started by the OP -- who was saying he wanted to collect all of Paizo's RPG books, brand new, without having to pay so much. He was not willing to settle for digital copies, used print copies, etc.
Your suggestion, to "make it yourself," would not really apply in this case (although one could always make one's own RPG :) ).
Ah this is false. You don't have to spend a dime.As a collector, I would very much like to know how to collect things without spending any money on them. And have them be things I would WANT to collect.
Sigh. If you want to be a hoarder, if they must all be up in your shelf you will spend a huge amount of money. If you don't want to spend anything or gather new books when others already have them, there are a few ways to do this.
Spend nothing, run anything 101.
1) Be a part of a gaming club. These can be found in some universities or stores. Consult the gaming club library, rent some of what they have out as needed. New adventure coming up? Need some monsters, borrow what you need then return it later. I am in a club in Melbourne that has a fantastic gaming library, this isn't in Amerikka, this is out in the provinces boys.
2) Find a collector, and leech off them. So you know someone that buys all the books for what has just come out (I know two such people) because they just can't stand not owning all that interests them. This is great, it will give you something to talk about, and new ideas as you browse their stuff. Then it all gets put back in their care, doesn't fill your house/flat and you don't have to move it when you move (unless you help the friend out). This leads to:
3) Run games for people, and use the resources these gamers have accumulated over the years. Ask what they want to see in their games and temp borrow it as you are running the game.
4) While making use of the above steps, take notes, memorise rules, maps and adventure paths, use free photocopying/printing if you or another gamer friend has access to it (at a uni/office/a friend's house). Once you've got enough down/photocopied/memorised, there is a lot of weight you don't need from these weighty tomes.
You don't need to own even a single hard-copy book to run or participate in games. Use networks and networking, subterfuge, disguise, diplomacy and ninjutsu.
I just gave away my entire 3.0 and 3.5 collection along with several 3pp books and all my Dungeon and Dragon Magazines to a friend for his birthday. I didn't add it all up but I would estimate it at about $2500 or more in stuff that was in near mint to mint condition. I have no use for it and he does. I could have sold it all off but I would rather give it to a friend.Ah this is false. You don't have to spend a dime.As a collector, I would very much like to know how to collect things without spending any money on them. And have them be things I would WANT to collect.
Two months back, I got given so much good old 2nd ed stuff. A friend knew I love this stuff, he had collected too much and already had copies of most of what he gave me. Gifts.
Now if I wanted to borrow a lot of his new stuff, that wouldn't be a problem, we are dms in it together.
Make your own?Ah this is false. You don't have to spend a dime.As a collector, I would very much like to know how to collect things without spending any money on them. And have them be things I would WANT to collect.
Yes! Don't just buy and consume. MAKE. INNOVATE. DISCOVER and edit to your heart's content.
New book comes out. Well Johnny Ringo, check it out before you buy it, check if you even need it. New rules/classes/feats come out, check they haven't already been done elsewhere. It would be a shame to pay for something that is already done and cheaper in say, a previous edition.
I want to support the company, I want to own all the products.
Okaaay, but you don't actually need to do this. These are costly wants, not needs and not necessary to getting into the hobby or even staying up to date.
Don't even need the bestiary (I do like bestiary 1-2 though). So much is online, dndwiki and if you make many of the monsters yourself, they probably won't be boring as sometimes official monsters are.
Understand various monster types, note down the basics and go from there and do what you want.
Last week I made all manner of magic spiders by adding new spell like abilities to monstrous spiders, and altering the spells of the aranea. The spells were easily found online.
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You don't need to own even a single hard-copy book to run or participate in games. Use networks and networking, subterfuge, disguise, diplomacy and ninjutsu.
So I was right that you were not responding to DQ's post. You suggested that a person does not need to buy the books to collect them, when what you really meant was that you don't need to spend a dime to play the game.