| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Or How to Restore Sanity to Your Game
I realize that this idea will be considered heretical to many modern gamers, who have known only Pathfinder, 3.5, and 3.0, not to mention on-line games such as World of Warcraft. That being said, the idea that any character (or creature) might constantly improve his or her (or its) ability scores to extreme levels is one of the structural problems in the game today. Back in 1st edition, there was no way to improve one’s ability scores and every single race had hard limits that they could transcend only with magic. It made, at least for me, the game a bit more challenging and a touch more in tune with the real-life capabilities of actual historical people.
As the game currently stands, you can start a character at 1st level with a Strength score of 20. That means in game terms you can pick up, carry, and move (20’ per move action, up to 40’ per round) 400 lbs. You can dead lift up to 800 lbs from the ground and stagger around with it (5’ per round). The world record for a dead lift (unassisted, without equipment) is 1,015 pounds in real-life. That would (roughly) equate to a Strength score of 22. And that was a straight lift, no staggering around in 5’ increments.
Yet, in game, that 20 Strength character at 1st level can increase his Strength up to a 30 by the time he retires at 20th level (+5 from the increase every four levels, +5 inherent). That would allow a dead lift of 3,680 lbs, more than three times the world record, more than 1.5 tons.
And more than the raw numbers involved in the weight such a character can lift, his bonuses on attack and damage rolls reach staggering proportions. He deals, on average, with a punch, more damage than a maxed out heavy crossbow bolt!
But what if we turned back the pages and took as our example the 1st edition of AD&D? Restored ability maximums to the rules?
What I am suggesting is this: humans, half-elves, and half-orcs have a maximum of 18 in all of their ability scores, across the board. They still get that floating +2 bonus, but they cannot raise any ability to greater than an 18. All other races, have a maximum of 20 in the ability scores they get a bonus for, and a maximum of 16 in the ability score they receive a negative in. For example, an Elf will have a maximum of Dex 20, Con 16, and Int 20, whereas a Dwarf will have Con 20, Wis 20, and Cha 16. All other ability scores have a hard limit of 18.
You still get a +1 bonus every four levels (4th, 8th, 12th, etc.), but this bonus cannot raise one of your ability scores above your racial maximum. You can still buy inherent bonuses (from tomes, manuals, and wishes), but these bonuses cannot exceed your racial maximums.
Magical enhancement bonuses CAN go over the top, however. Which means that a score of 26 will be the absolute modified magically-enchanted ability score any character can ever have (if that ability was capped at 20), with 24 (for an ability max of 18) being more common, and 22 (for an ability max of 16) there for a few.
We would have to change a few things (barbarian rage, for example), but that is easy to do. For every +2 bonus he would receive in Strength, a barbarian instead would get a +1 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls. For every +2 bonus he would receive in Constitution, he gets +1 hit points per class level and a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves. It is a simple change, but one that works.
How does this affect the game itself? Well, for starters, it makes the characters feel more ‘real’, more ‘heroic’. I mean, sure, some folks want to rival Hercules (a demi-god) in Strength, but not even Conan was that strong. I don’t think that such a change will really impact the fun that people have, but it will provide a means of keeping characters within the realms of what is possible for human beings.
What are your thoughts? What do you think? Would you like to see something like this, or do you prefer the advancement to infinity model of 3.x/Pathfinder as it currently is?
Master Arminas
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or How to Restore Sanity to Your Game
I realize that this idea will be considered heretical to many modern gamers, who have known only Pathfinder, 3.5, and 3.0, not to mention on-line games such as World of Warcraft. That being said, the idea that any character (or creature) might constantly improve his or her (or its) ability scores to extreme levels is one of the structural problems in the game today. Back in 1st edition, there was no way to improve one’s ability scores and every single race had hard limits that they could transcend only with magic. It made, at least for me, the game a bit more challenging and a touch more in tune with the real-life capabilities of actual historical people.
Okay, stop right there... I hear often on these threads about how this game has this feature that isn't realistic, or what not, but messing with caps on abilities like this messes with game balance. Unless your willing to about re-write the game or at least EVERY encounter, like my current awesome GM did for 3+ years, then this is a null issue. The game is just that a game, and a fantasy game at that. It goes against the core design aspect of the game mechanics. So I am sorry you don't like things with this game are, perhaps you should go back to these older games and up-date them a little? I just wouldn't suggest trying to mod the current game along these lines.
Best of luck though!
-Hexen
If you want to avoid redesigning the pregenerated NPCs in the Game Mastery Guide, you would have to allow humans to have one ability score of up to 20. Doing this would also have the advantage of leaving generation of 1st level characters unaffected (as many human, half-elf, and half-orc characters are typically designed in a way that takes one ability score over 18) -- only the future improvements every 4 levels and inherent bonuses acquired via tomes would be affected.
Okay, stop right there... I hear often on these threads about how this game has this feature that isn't realistic, or what not, but messing with caps on abilities like this messes with game balance. Unless your willing to about re-write the game or at least EVERY encounter, like my current awesome GM did for 3+ years, then this is a null issue. The game is just that a game, and a fantasy game at that. It goes against the core design aspect of the game mechanics. So I am sorry you don't like things with this game are, perhaps you should go back to these older games and up-date them a little? I just wouldn't suggest trying to mod the current game along these lines.
Best of luck though!
-Hexen
I am considering doing this (considering, mind you), in my own campaign. But I wanted to talk it out here, and see what folks think, what it would effect, how it might limit existing rules, and what have you have. And to, frankly, see if other folks feel as I do. I mean, in the current rules, a 20th level Barbarian can possibly attain a Strength of 44 (18 Base, +2 racial, +5 level, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement, +8 rage), which lets him dead-lift 5,600 lbs (enough to dead lift a Ford Expedition, hold it over his head, and move 5' every round!).
This isn't something that I am suggesting for Pathfinder, but instead it is a question that I am posing: does the ability to expand ability scores ad infintium have a postive or negative effect on the play of the game?
It is a mechanic that, at least in my opinion, needs to be explored. You may not agree, but that is okay.
MA
Okay, stop right there... I hear often on these threads about how this game has this feature that isn't realistic, or what not, but messing with caps on abilities like this messes with game balance. Unless your willing to about re-write the game or at least EVERY encounter, like my current awesome GM did for 3+ years, then this is a null issue. The game is just that a game, and a fantasy game at that. It goes against the core design aspect of the game mechanics. So I am sorry you don't like things with this game are, perhaps you should go back to these older games and up-date them a little? I just wouldn't suggest trying to mod the current game along these lines.
Best of luck though!
-HexenI am considering doing this (considering, mind you), in my own campaign. But I wanted to talk it out here, and see what folks think, what it would effect, how it might limit existing rules, and what have you have. And to, frankly, see if other folks feel as I do. I mean, in the current rules, a 20th level Barbarian can possibly attain a Strength of 44 (18 Base, +2 racial, +5 level, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement, +8 rage), which lets him dead-lift 5,600 lbs (enough to dead lift a Ford Expedition, hold it over his head, and move 5' every round!).
This isn't something that I am suggesting for Pathfinder, but instead it is a question that I am posing: does the ability to expand ability scores ad infintium have a postive or negative effect on the play of the game?
It is a mechanic that, at least in my opinion, needs to be explored. You may not agree, but that is okay.
MA
Adrenaline rushed children have been known to lift cars off their parents, imagine what would happen if an adult body builder got to these levels of adrenaline rush? Maybe just that. However I feel for you. I have played plenty of games where there are max stats. I suggest the Cortex system personally, this game is too revolved around the set stat limits as is.
Again, best of luck!
-Hexen
Adrenaline rushed children have been known to lift cars off their parents, imagine what would happen if an adult body builder got to these levels of adrenaline rush? Maybe just that. However I feel for you. I have played plenty of games where there are max stats. I suggest the Cortex system personally, this game is too revolved around the set stat limits as is.
Again, best of luck!
-Hexen
I don't disagree . . . but given the mechanics of the system that Pathfinder uses, shouldn't that type of adrenaline feat (i.e., lifting tremendous weights beyond what a person is normally capable of) be set as a Strength check? Something like . . . this:
Strength Surge
Upon rare occassion, an individual may be able to lift more than he is normally capable of. Doing so requires a Strength check (1d20 + Strength modifier) and permits the character to possibly exceed his normal capacity for a brief moment of time. If character manages to equal or exceed a DC of 10 on this check, he can lift up to one and one-half times his normal maximum capacity (and maintain that lift long enough to pull someone out from underneath, for example). By equalling or exceeding a DC of 15 on this check, he can lift up to twice his normal maximum capacity. By equalling or exceeding a DC of 20 on this check, he can lift up to three times his normal maximum capacity.
A character may only maintain his lift for one round, and regardless of success or failure, he is automatically fatigued at the conclusion of this activity.
It plays into the Pathfinder system of allowing a roll with variable effects rather than just flat-out stating that you either can lift it or you can't. And it models that real-life adrenalin surge fairly well (not exactly, but no RPG can precisely model real-life).
MA
This would hurt spellcasters significantly, because they need to get really pump their primary ability scores in order to keep their spell DCs high enough to beat high level enemies. Your rule would make their spells 10-15% more likely to fail.
Also, your barbarian example would weaken that class because it doesn't take into account the bonus from two-handing a weapon.
I must play in anomalously low magic games. I've seen ONE tome the whole time, and that was only +1. A +2 belt or headband is the best stat booster in the whole party. Maybe I should just go play E6 or E8.
A Pit Field has saves of Fort +24, Ref +21, and Will +18, with SR 31. The average CR 20 critter has a good save of +22 and a poor save of +17.
A caster, maxed out with a magically-enhanced ability score of 24 will have a DC of 17 plus spell level. Spell focus adds +1, greater spell focus adds a total bonus of +2.
DC 19 plus spell level. That is a 28 for 9th level spells. 50% chance for the Pit Field to fail against his poor save; 55% for a generic CR20 critter. Sure, against his GOOD saves, the caster isn't going to do so well (20% chance vs. Fort, 35% chance vs. Reflex). But just because his save DCs are not in the stratosphere, doesn't mean that the caster is useless.
For lower level spells, there are plenty of no-save spells available.
MA
...does the ability to expand ability scores ad infintium have a postive or negative effect on the play of the game?
Neutral? I too have struggled with increasing attributes by non-magical means. I have a wizard on the cusp of level 12 and his next point it Int will give him an instant 12 skill points on top of what he normally gets. This is hard for me to fully accept. I could in one level go from knowing nothing about nobility to knowing everything about it without neglecting my other skills. I won't, but it is an option. The increasing ability scores do make me feel heroic, and I like that. However, it can be difficult to imagine a person improving attributes in game. Attributes in RL usually refer to things about you that you cannot really change. Strength is one of the ones I find the easiest to imagine improving, but it is true that a person will eventually reach their personal cap. You are almost focusing on the wrong attribute here, but I will admit that it is the easiest to quantify.
As for your rule variants, I would not finding it too limiting. The fighter may not have as high too hit from strength, but he would have more hit point or a better AC because he was forced to diversify. Your limiters would create more balanced characters. I do have a few issues though. The humans and halves should not be limited to 18. They should get one 20 to the attribute in which they put their +2. Otherwise, they are losing out to all the non-humans that get two 20's and one 16.
The changes to Barbarian Rage are unnecessary. Just call it adrenaline. As Hexen mentioned, humans have done some incredible things under duress. The part about getting a bonus to-hit and damage instead of more Strength makes no sense to me. At this point, it is all semantics. If a person can apply themselves to hit harder, they could do the same to move a rock. The Strength Surge stuff isn't bad, but again, we are only looking at one Attribute. There would need to be something for nearly every attribute. Just make such things an attribute check versus a DC and don't worry about the specifics.
Finally, I cannot recommend the removal of inherent bonuses. Not only is this actually integral to game mechanics, it is also a product of magic. Once magic gets in the mix, all bets are off. If you want true realism, you will need to remove magic from game play. I have played in a low-magic campaign. The game was a lot of fun, but I know the GM did a lot of work to keep the game balanced. Even just removing inherent bonuses will change the game balance significantly in late level. Anyway, this is just my two copper.
Wouldn't this mean no one but elves could cast ninth level spells?
For every +2 bonus he would receive in Strength, a barbarian instead would get a +1 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls. For every +2 bonus he would receive in Constitution, he gets +1 hit points per class level and a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves. It is a simple change, but one that works.
Er...isn't this how the rules already work?
Well, actually, I am not recommending removal of inherent bonuses, just that by adding them, you cannot exceed your racial maximum.
Let's say I have a 12th level Halfling with the following ability scores: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12. He has put his three level ups in Dex, giving him a total of 20. Stats are now Str 11, Dex 20, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12. He finds a ring of three wishes with one wish left, and decides to use it to gain an inherent bonus. He cannot add that +1 bonus to Dexterity, because he is already at his racial maximum. But he could add it to any of his other five ability scores. That's how I see it working.
MA
Wouldn't this mean no one but elves could cast ninth level spells?
See, right here is something I overlooked. Yes, I will probably need to allow humans and half-elfs and half-orcs to boost their one chosen ability score to 20.
And it does mean that only humans, half-elfs, half-orcs, and elves can cast 9th level wizard spells.
Only humans, half-elfs, half-orcs, and dwarves can cast 9th level druid or cleric spells.
Only humans, half-elfs, half-orcs, gnomes, and halfings can cast 9th level sorcerer spells.
Might have to rethink this.
MA
Adrenaline rushed children have been known to lift cars off their parents, imagine what would happen if an adult body builder got to these levels of adrenaline rush? Maybe just that. However I feel for you. I have played plenty of games where there are max stats. I suggest the Cortex system personally, this game is too revolved around the set stat limits as is.
Again, best of luck!
-Hexen
I don't disagree . . . but given the mechanics of the system that Pathfinder uses, shouldn't that type of adrenaline feat (i.e., lifting tremendous weights beyond what a person is normally capable of) be set as a Strength check? Something like . . . this:
Strength Surge
Upon rare occassion, an individual may be able to lift more than he is normally capable of. Doing so requires a Strength check (1d20 + Strength modifier) and permits the character to possibly exceed his normal capacity for a brief moment of time. If character manages to equal or exceed a DC of 10 on this check, he can lift up to one and one-half times his normal maximum capacity (and maintain that lift long enough to pull someone out from underneath, for example). By equalling or exceeding a DC of 15 on this check, he can lift up to twice his normal maximum capacity. By equalling or exceeding a DC of 20 on this check, he can lift up to three times his normal maximum capacity.
A character may only maintain his lift for one round, and regardless of success or failure, he is automatically fatigued at the conclusion of this activity.It plays into the Pathfinder system of allowing a roll with variable effects rather than just flat-out stating that you either can lift it or you can't. And it models that real-life adrenalin surge fairly well (not exactly, but no RPG can precisely model real-life).
MA
Its a class ability called Rage.
-Hexen
I think one of the assumptions being that progressing from level 1 to 20 in game time is a matter of years of constant adventuring. This is more true for melee based characters, as this analogy breaks down on the wizard who gets 12 more ranks in something at level 12 because of +1 to Int.
I think you'd have to radically alter how levels are gained or what they represent and have it be different for different classes. Arcane casters should be studying a lot. Front liners should be fighting constantly. Etc.
Or you'd have to rework skill rank bonus caps and things of those nature too.
Massive undertaking I would not envy you for doing. :) Fun thought exercise though.
Also, I think a lot of people who gravitate towards PF also like the thought of being able to lift that 3,640 lbs, and killing a monster with that Str score, at the expense of all of their other scores.
This just seems like a general nerf to PCs at almost all levels of play. I dont get why you wouldnt just use a system more in line with the power level you want. Then you wouldnt have to spend hours upon hours week after week rebalancing every challenge you throw at your party
^ no because magic items are allowed still.
The problem with MAs explanation is the final %s are based on 9th level spells... a 20th level caster will nearly auto fail with most of their spells, it is only when slinging their very best spells that they even get a coin flip of a chance against poor saves to succeed at having an effect... and that sucks.
instead of capping the increase of attributes, if you don't want to see those crazy high values, create an incentive to raise the lower ones.
here is my suggestion
instead of a flat +1 increase per 4 levels, you receive a bonus buy point (point buy style) per level. this point may either be spent immediately or saved for later.
following the standard point cost progression, some of those numbers are quite expensive. 21 points for a 19 (17 for an 18) 26 points for a 20. takes 9 levels to go from 18-20. requires the next 11 to get a 22. assuming you raise nothing else. while it only takes 2 levels to raise a 13 to a 14.
I mean, in the current rules, a 20th level Barbarian can possibly attain a Strength of 44 (18 Base, +2 racial, +5 level, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement, +8 rage), which lets him dead-lift 5,600 lbs (enough to dead lift a Ford Expedition, hold it over his head, and move 5' every round!).
This isn't something that I am suggesting for Pathfinder, but instead it is a question that I am posing: does the ability to expand ability scores ad infintium have a postive or negative effect on the play of the game?
Nitpicky, but it's not really ad infinitum if the most that can be attained is 44.
My personal feeling is that if a 20th level, raging, magically enhanced barbarian can pick up a Ford Expedition and stagger around with it, then that is perfectly consistent with the rest of 20th level play. It barely even raises an eyebrow compared to the things a 20th level caster is doing. The real world doesn't have people who can lift that much because the real world doesn't have 20th level barbarians or magic. If the current world-record lift would have required a Strength score of 22... Then that makes sense. The lifter was a 8th+ level human expert, who started with a 20 in strength, and raised it at levels 4 and 8. In the real world, there are no inherent or enhancement bonuses. I'd say 8+ is very high level for the real world.
YMMV.
^ no because magic items are allowed still.
The problem with MAs explanation is the final %s are based on 9th level spells... a 20th level caster will nearly auto fail with most of their spells, it is only when slinging their very best spells that they even get a coin flip of a chance against poor saves to succeed at having an effect... and that sucks.
instead of capping the increase of attributes, if you don't want to see those crazy high values, create an incentive to raise the lower ones.
here is my suggestion
instead of a flat +1 increase per 4 levels, you receive a bonus buy point (point buy style) per level. this point may either be spent immediately or saved for later.
Interesting idea. I'll give it some thought.
MA
^ no because magic items are allowed still.
The problem with MAs explanation is the final %s are based on 9th level spells... a 20th level caster will nearly auto fail with most of their spells, it is only when slinging their very best spells that they even get a coin flip of a chance against poor saves to succeed at having an effect... and that sucks.
instead of capping the increase of attributes, if you don't want to see those crazy high values, create an incentive to raise the lower ones.
here is my suggestion
instead of a flat +1 increase per 4 levels, you receive a bonus buy point (point buy style) per level. this point may either be spent immediately or saved for later.
Interesting idea. I'll give it some thought.
MA
following the standard point cost progression, some of those numbers are quite expensive. 21 points for a 19 (17 for an 18) 26 points for a 20. takes 9 levels to go from 18-20. requires the next 11 to get a 22. assuming you raise nothing else. while it only takes 2 levels to raise a 13 to a 14
If you want a game that's more realistic, as in what the characters are capable of,, why not just use something like E6?
Because at level 20, I'm really not concerned with the fighter seeming a little unrealistic, seeing as how a full caster can create their own plane of existence, stop time and generally alter reality.
Well, actually, I am not recommending removal of inherent bonuses, just that by adding them, you cannot exceed your racial maximum.
I understood that, but you will always be removing it from the attribute(s) that actually matter to the character. I realize now that I did not state that clearly enough. My apologies.
You know, I originally thought this would be a bigger blow to casters like some of the previous posters have mentioned, but after some number crunching, I realized it wouldn't be too bad.
By removing inherent bonuses, you will be removing an average of 2.5 from spell-save DC's. You are also removing 2 on average because they cannot raise the base above 20. Spells at the level cap already fail 50% of the time from SR anyway. Your average -4 to their top level saves will end up increasing their total chance of failure by 10%. That will have some game balance issues, but not as many as I originally thought. If you allow Inherent bonuses to exceed the cap (Magic!), this failure rate increase is closer to 5%. Both of these failure rate increases are manageable if you are willing to do some game-balance work on high level encounters. Just keep those kind of things in mind. Still just my two copper.
How about changing Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus to give a +2 each (stackable)?
That means as a caster with a base (pre-magic) stat of 20, an adjusted stat of 26 (for +8 modifier), he is looking at spell save DCs of 18 + spell level. Spell focus would make that 20 + spell level, while greater would be 22 + spell level.
For 9th level spells that is DCs of 27, 29, and 31, respectively.
Against that pit fiend from earlier, that would let a caster with greater spell focus (and spell focus) would have the following chances of failure:
Fort: 10% (standard), 20% (spell focus), and 30% (greater spell focus).
Reflex: 25% (standard), 35% (spell focus), and 45% (greater spell focus).
Will: 40% (standard), 50% (spell focus), and 60% (greater spell focus).
The caster would have a 50% chance to penetrate spell resistance (60% with spell penetration, 70% with greater spell penetration).
Now, that IS for 9th level spells. Each spell level below 9th would reduce the odds of affecting the Pit Fiend by 5%.
8th Level:
Fort: 5% (standard), 15% (spell focus), and 25% (greater spell focus).
Reflex: 20% (standard), 30% (spell focus), and 40% (greater spell focus).
Will: 35% (standard), 45% (spell focus), and 55% (greater spell focus).
7th Level:
Fort: 0% (standard), 10% (spell focus), and 20% (greater spell focus).
Reflex: 15% (standard), 25% (spell focus), and 35% (greater spell focus).
Will: 30% (standard), 40% (spell focus), and 50% (greater spell focus).
6th Level:
Fort: 0% (standard), 5% (spell focus), and 15% (greater spell focus).
Reflex: 10% (standard), 20% (spell focus), and 30% (greater spell focus).
Will: 25% (standard), 35% (spell focus), and 45% (greater spell focus).
5th Level:
Fort: 0% (standard), 0% (spell focus), and 10% (greater spell focus).
Reflex: 5% (standard), 15% (spell focus), and 25% (greater spell focus).
Will: 20% (standard), 30% (spell focus), and 40% (greater spell focus).
4th Level:
Fort: 0% (standard), 0% (spell focus), and 5% (greater spell focus).
Reflex: 0% (standard), 10% (spell focus), and 20% (greater spell focus).
Will: 15% (standard), 25% (spell focus), and 35% (greater spell focus).
3rd Level:
Fort: 0% (standard), 0% (spell focus), and 0% (greater spell focus).
Reflex: 0% (standard), 5% (spell focus), and 15% (greater spell focus).
Will: 10% (standard), 20% (spell focus), and 30% (greater spell focus).
2nd Level:
Fort: 0% (standard), 0% (spell focus), and 0% (greater spell focus).
Reflex: 0% (standard), 0% (spell focus), and 10% (greater spell focus).
Will: 5% (standard), 15% (spell focus), and 25% (greater spell focus).
1st Level:
Fort: 0% (standard), 0% (spell focus), and 0% (greater spell focus).
Reflex: 0% (standard), 0% (spell focus), and 5% (greater spell focus).
Will: 0% (standard), 10% (spell focus), and 20% (greater spell focus).
Zero Level:
Fort: 0% (standard), 0% (spell focus), and 0% (greater spell focus).
Reflex: 0% (standard), 0% (spell focus), and 0% (greater spell focus).
Will: 0% (standard), 5% (spell focus), and 15% (greater spell focus).
Against the Pit Fiend's poor save (Will), a caster with Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus still has a chance (not a good one, but a chance) of the critter failing the save against a cantrip or orison. Really, though, a 20th level caster is probably not going to be using 5th level and lower spells against a Pit Fiend. And for his 6th level and above, he is still reasonably effective against the Pit Fiend's poor save.
Maybe it is just me, but I don't think even a high level arcane caster should have an almost automatic ability to beat his opponents saves. I know, it is something in the game that is baked in. But, from my point of view, the odds are good enough.
MA
It seems like a really convoluted system just to make the game slightly harder for martial characters (unless you have another convoluted system to replace their bonuses). Also, is there a way to give yourself a +5 inherent bonus without magic? Isn't the bodybuilder in your example a magically enhanced bodybuilder with inherent bonuses? Isn't kinda of silly to ask for more realism in your fantasy sword and sorcerer game?
How ironic; my barbarian just found a +4 Ford Expedition of Shocking Burst.
At least it wasn't a Pinto of Flaming Burst.
Okay, stop right there... I hear often on these threads about how this game has this feature that isn't realistic, or what not, but messing with caps on abilities like this messes with game balance. Unless your willing to about re-write the game or at least EVERY encounter, like my current awesome GM did for 3+ years, then this is a null issue. The game is just that a game, and a fantasy game at that. It goes against the core design aspect of the game mechanics. So I am sorry you don't like things with this game are, perhaps you should go back to these older games and up-date them a little? I just wouldn't suggest trying to mod the current game along these lines.
Best of luck though!
-HexenI am considering doing this (considering, mind you), in my own campaign. But I wanted to talk it out here, and see what folks think, what it would effect, how it might limit existing rules, and what have you have. And to, frankly, see if other folks feel as I do. I mean, in the current rules, a 20th level Barbarian can possibly attain a Strength of 44 (18 Base, +2 racial, +5 level, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement, +8 rage), which lets him dead-lift 5,600 lbs (enough to dead lift a Ford Expedition, hold it over his head, and move 5' every round!).
This isn't something that I am suggesting for Pathfinder, but instead it is a question that I am posing: does the ability to expand ability scores ad infintium have a postive or negative effect on the play of the game?
It is a mechanic that, at least in my opinion, needs to be explored. You may not agree, but that is okay.
MA
5,600 pounds? Where did that number come from? It should be a lot higher than that.
You are right, I messed up. It should be 11,200 lbs. Slightly more than FIVE tons.
MA
or 22,400 if you just want to lift it off the ground and move 5 feet a round, lol.
I don't know if you care about Clerics, but they can get some crazy numbers with just few spells/abilities.
If you want a game that's more realistic, as in what the characters are capable of,, why not just use something like E6?
Because at level 20, I'm really not concerned with the fighter seeming a little unrealistic, seeing as how a full caster can create their own plane of existence, stop time and generally alter reality.
My thoughts exactly.
The game assumes the peak for a normal human is somewhere between 4th and 6th level. So why should a 18th level character be realistic?
Also, I feel this houserule hurts martials much more than casters. Sure, casters may not have such a high DC, but they still fly, become invisible, summon demons, create demiplanes and bring back the dead. It's only fair for a high-level barbarian be capable of throwing a house at someone.
I don't see this as flaw in the game, it's actually quite fun to grow from a somewhat skilled warrior to a legendary dragon-slaying hero.
Want to keep things "realistic"? Well, the only viable ways are either limiting character to low levels a la E6 or playing something else entirely.
Even with limits on ability scores, a level 20 archery focused character (+20 BAB, 20 Dex) with a +5 distance comp. longbow can hit a fine-sized (6" wide, AC 11) target 19 times out of 20 at a distance of 1200 ft. Realism has left the building long before.
1st ed, belt of Cloud Giant str = in todays game a 35. And effectively about the same.
A 1st level PC could have a str of 18/00 which was = Ogre str, or in todays game 21. Again, for all gaming purposes, about the same.
Thus, your initial proposition is false. Sorry.
1st ed, belt of Cloud Giant str = in todays game a 35. And effectively about the same.
A 1st level PC could have a str of 18/00 which was = Ogre str, or in todays game 21. Again, for all gaming purposes, about the same.
Thus, your initial proposition is false. Sorry.
Friend, not only did I play and DM back in those games, I wrote stuff for the game.
But, to get that 18/00, first you had to roll an 18 (on 3d6) on the very first roll you made for ability scores (roll 3d6, assigning them in order). THEN, if you were playing a Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger, you could roll percentile dice. Every other class didn't get percentile strength on a 18. And you had to roll 100 on those dice.
In the years I played 1st edition (from '86 until 2000), I never saw anyone roll an 18/00. Even after we 'loosened' the rules and let people assign their rolls to their stats (instead of going in order) and adopted 4d6 drop the lowest. Oh, we had 18/xx plenty of times, but never once an 18/00. Closest we came was this one guy who rolled one die at a time and got excited because he rolled a 10 on the first . . . and a 1 on the second. 18/01. Man, he was frustrated.
MA
Not only do I disagree with your rule, I disagree with your premise.
Characters at 20th level are on the verge of godhood and they should certainly have ability scores well above human potential. Your 20th level Barbarian with 44 Strength isn't just a savage with anger management issues, he's the Incredible Hulk.
As it stands, your real-life example with Strength leaves the maximum human strength at or near the level of Strength that a character can achieve at 4th level-- which is, not coincidentally, at or near the level that a character with high stats and good skills (alone) surpasses human world records.
The scaling of ability scores goes hand-in-hand with the skill progression and class features; these are not bugs in the game system, but features of a game in which the player characters are expected as a matter of course to surpass human limitations.
This would hurt spellcasters significantly, because they need to get really pump their primary ability scores in order to keep their spell DCs high enough to beat high level enemies. Your rule would make their spells 10-15% more likely to fail.
Oh no, Br'er Fox, please don't throw me in that briar patch!
If you want to talk about bugs in the system, Wizards were never supposed to be able to shut down high-level encounters with a single spell-- the game was designed such that the intended role of the Wizard in combat was to cast direct damage spells, and the fact that this is the least effective use of his resources is an indication that the game does not function as intended.
Clerics were supposed to be heal-bots, too. And Fighters and Rogues were supposed to be balanced with them.
Its a class ability called Rage.
-Hexen
Or a hero point.
We addressed this issue years ago with the "roll 3d6, re roll 1s" stat generation method.
We have one character with an 18 dex (elf ronin) and one character with two 18s (half elf oracle/ninja) who COULD have had a 20 cha but changed that when she wanted to go oracle ninja instead of straight oracle.
We also play relatively low magic, as no one crafts magic items and we can only buy stuff that us randomly rolled as treasure (i.e. if we go to a magic shop, we randomly roll whats available and so it's often extremely hard to buy "just the right items"
Generally by games end we might see stats occasionally reach 22-24, but most of the time they hover around 17-19.
the "gimp" characters are fun because the represent much more of a challenge and represent best our favored method of play (running down the halls waving our arms, screaming in horror chased by kobolds)
Why should you be limited to the limits of real humans? Most "action" protagonists of myth and legend were superhumans! Herakles, Gilgamesh, Dietrich von Bern, etc- they could perform their deeds not because of training, but because they were a lot stronger and tougher than any mere mortal.