| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Still going through your spell ratings--here are my thoughts:
You compare Adjuring Step to Sanctuary--but they do not function the same at all. Sanctuary means enemies can't attack you at all. Adjuring Step just means you can make two five foot steps. And that's barely worth a spell known, never mind a precious spell per day or even an action. RED.
Thank you for agreeing with me on Anticipate Peril--sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who finds it too short of a duration to be useful. Under what circumstances are people so often seeing combat coming a minute in advance? Yellow is dead on.
Cause Fear is pretty weak to rate green. I know it's more HD than sleep, but it also doesn't make them helpless. And neither spell is useful past level 2 or 3 or so. I'd never give it more than a yellow.
I think Expeditious Retreat is overrated, too. It's good for a melee bard--kind of pointless for the Archer or Support bards. Maybe a combo yellow/green?
I also think Feather Fall is better than you give it credit for. It can hit your entire party and when you need it, it's fantastic--hell, you could even engineer "needing it" more often when you have it. Why bother climbing down the cliff when you can just jump? Plus, you can't replace it with a wand or scroll, either, since it's immediate. I'd definitely rate it Green. Sure, I would never take it at level 1 or something, when my repetoire is limited, but I'll take it every time with one of my later level 1 picks.
Fumbletongue is only a 20% spell failure. When you combine that with it's pitiful 1d4 round duration, that's not nearly enough for me to consider the spell useful. RED.
Liberating Command is another spell like Feather Fall that I just find invaluable. It saves action economy and provides a tremendous bonus. Maybe grappling happens a lot less in your games than in my experience? I'll never skip this spell (though it shouldn't necessarily be one of my first few). Easily green. I'd even consider blue.
Wow, Lock Gaze is better than I expected--I don't think I ever bothered even reading it since it sounded so stupid. As a half-squishy, however, I'd like to make sure I was at max range when I cast this.
Moment of Greatness actually sucks for Bards because Inspire Courage is a Competence Bonus to attacks/damages--the Morale bonus is only to saves. It's actually best for Barbarians (Rage Prophets, anyone?), because Raging provies a Morale Bonus to stats. I'd have probably called it Red, honestly, but it's borderline if you have a couple of Barbarians in the party.
I think Memory Lapse is too short duration and too limited (only really works on targets that are alone) to be worth a spell known/per day.
For most bards, Timely Inspiration's bonus is too small to be worth it, because Inspire Courage gives a Competence bonuses. It is, however, still great for the few bard archetypes that lose Inspire Courage.
I'm also glad to see you appreciate two of my favorite, usually underrated spells: Solid Note and Unseen Servant. If I'm human, I'm getting both of those (but probably can't spare a spell if I'm not).
On Darkness--I'd still call it red because it's sucky--but your allies don't necessarily need to see you for performances to work. For most of them (obviously not something like Distraction which is specifically visual), you can choose whether they need to see or hear you.
Delay Poison is practically Poison Immunity for a very long duration. I think it's pretty awesome, but level 2 is packed with good spells. If I was human, I would probably take this later on with my favored class bonus. I might consider Green.
Gallant Inspiration is blue for Bard archetypes that lose Inspire Courage. However, the bonus Gallant Inspiration grants is significantly less for everyone else because both it and Inspire Courage grant Competence Bonuses. It's still good, though--I'd probably say Green.
Wait, what?! You think Glitterdust is for the invisible targets and not the blindess? Blind is practically a fight ending debuff, and remains that way for a very long time. Every Bard should have this spell, as should ever Sorcerer. It's easily Blue--I'd put it up there with Grease and Silent Image as 20 level spells (especially if you get Heighten Spell).
Haunting Mists seems really dangerous to use. It's a good debuff and all, but I wouldn't call it blue, maybe not even green (since it equally screws allies and can only be centered on you). If I want Shaken, I'll take Blistering Invective. If I want 1d2 wisdom damage--well, why would you care about that? There's no way this is even close to as good as Glitterdust.
Heroism does (mostly) stack with Inspire Courage--only the save bonus on Inspire Courage is a moral bonus. It's a great buff. Green is still about right, though.
Hold Person is--I don't know how to feel about this spell. When it works, it wins. But it's only one target and get they get so many saves. Plus, humanoids only. I don't know, I don't think I'd make it blue. Green, maybe. I'd never take it, personally, though.
Invisibility is amazing--and no, you don't always need to be seen. Only for a few performances is that necessary.
I don't thinK Mad Hallucination is a good PC spell. It's nasty for the GM, since the duration is so long (just like Blindness/Deafness), but in PC hands, I have to say, who cares? You can give them a -2 to Will saves (the only aspect of the spell that is likely to be relevant most of the time) via many other ways (sickened, shaken, etc.), and I would think since those are more useful overall (as they debuff other stuff, too), you'd only use Mad Hallucination if you already stacked up all the other possible debuffs. Is it really worth another spell known, a spell per day, hell even an action, to stack up the penalties that high? I'd take Blistering Invective over this any day.
Pilfering Hand is green? Really? Maybe early on, a Disarm with CL+Cha is going to be good, but not only are half or more of the enemies you are likely to face going to be using natural weapons, but they're going to have CMDs in the stratusphere, and CL+Cha just won't scale fast enough. No, this is yellow--there's too many other amazing spells at 2nd level.
Shatter is not circumstantial--Shatter is awesome! It totally bones enemy spellcasters. Start shattering holy symbols and spell component pouches and your GM will hate you like never before. I always make sure to grab Shatter if I can. Again, not with my first picks, but eventually.
Other good Silence tricks--your familiar or unseen servant can carry around a pebble or something with Silence on it. Or put it on an ally's stuff--say the main tank, or more nasty, an Invisible Rogue. Mega-blue--as blue as blue can be, up there with Grease, Silent Image, and Glitterdust (and maybe Confusion--I love that spell more than I should).
Sound Burst is awesome, too! AoE stuns rock--the damage is irrelevant. I'd call it Green.
Steal Voice is again, only a 20% spell failure. That sucks for the PCs because they'll feel the pain for a long time. But for the PCs to use on the enemy? Why? What justifies wasting an action and a level 2 spell on giving a enemy a 20% chance to lose their spell? You could have used that spell to Blind them with Glitterdust or Blindess/Deafness and they wouldn't be able to target their spells 100% of the time. How about the Hold Person that you're so fond of? No, no thank you.
Just worthy of note: the base Bard gets Suggestion with a scaling DC as a performance. It's still good for the Bard archetypes that lose it, though (Sound Striker, for example).
I think Tactical Acumen is probably Green. I feel like my own experiences (people practically never flank, not even the rogue) are an outlier. Flanking should happen constantly--every melee character should be maneuvering to get that +2 all the time. So, this spell is great in theory, especially because it's a rare Insight bonus. But yeah, it's very group dependent.
If you get Tongues Permanenced, why would you need it on your limited list of spells known?
Exquisite Accompaniment is not blue worthy in my opinion. Green, maybe, I guess. It competes with a lot, though--I might knock it down to yellow. It saves a few rounds of Bardic Music per day, but is hardly special otherwise. Also note that "having your hands free is irrelevant for the most part" as you don't need to use an instrument for any bardic performances.
Sculpt Sound: So wait a minute--you give green ratings to crappy spells that give spellcasters 20% spell failure chance, but then red to a spell that literally states in it that it can totally shut down a spellcaster from using any spells with verbal components? And it lasts hours per level! 100% spell failure is red, when 20% is green? And crap, yeah, if you're creative, you can do so much with this in addition to complete caster shut down! Man, you're making me want spells I never thought of taking before with this guide.
The boards are always raving about Terrible Remorse and I don't know, I just don't think it's that good. It's like Hold Person--so many saves. And unlike Hold Person, they're not helpless.
Virtuoso Performance is something I'd consider very Blue. And it makes Exquisite Accompaniment more appealing. By level 10, you have an insane number of Bardic music rounds per day--use them!
I don't think Song of Discord is a beefed up Confusion--in fact, I think it's quite a bit worse than confusion. The trick is that Song of Discord never gives more than a 50% chance for them to hit an ally. Confusion, however, chains. If one confused guy his another confused guy, that second guy now HAS to attack the first one, who now HAS to attack the second guy. It locks enemies into duels, essentially, and is thus way better than Song of Discord.
I'm not nearly as impressed with Deadly Finale as you are. The damage just seems anemic for someone who is level 16+
Damn, this is really fun. Maybe I should start making guides.
First of all, thanks for making the guide! As someone who is playing a bard in his current Pathfinder game, I've enjoyed reading current advice on feats, spells and archetypes.
I wanted to point out that the attack and damage bonus from Pathfinder's version of Inspire Courage is a Competence bonus, not a Morale bonus, which means it stacks with the attack and damage bonuses from Heroism, Good Hope, and Greater Heroism. Inspire Courage's save bonus is still Morale, so the save bonuses don't stack. Please revise your spell comments accordingly.
Unfortunately, this change means that Timely Inspiration and Gallant Inspiration don't stack with Inspire Courage. You'll have to decide if that affects your rating.
I would also suggest revising your description of darkness, which implies that people need to see a bard for any of his performances to work. This is only true if the bard is using a performance that requires a visual component, such as Distraction, Fascinate, Dirge of Doom, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics or Deadly Performance. While some of those performances are nice, the default performance of Inspire Courage only requires auditory components.
In your comments on Oppressive Boredom, you say Hold Person is better. In general, I would agree because Oppressive Boredom has a shorter range, inflicts a weaker condition, and only affects an opponent an action if they fail a save before taking their first action that round, which means they get two saves the round it's cast and can act on the round they make a save. However, you might point out that Oppressive Boredom can target any creature, which is useful in campaigns dominated by nonhumanoids.
To my understanding, Arcane Concordance affects your spells because you count as your own ally unless doing so would make no sense or be impossible.
Yeah, I just scanned Inspire Courage, and you're right it's a competence on attack and damage. Silly me I saw moral and thought it was for all three, obviously I will be correcting that. I will add a mention that oppressive boredom does affect other monster types.
Displacement isn't red IMO, it's a very solid buff for your front-liners - while Mirror Image is self onlym and thus useless for this purpose. Also note that it stacks with mirror image, and your images get displaced too, so using both will give you some serious protection!+1 on Arcane Concordance. The "you are always your own ally" clause frequently gets overlooked.
Jester's Jaunt may be quite useful for getting allies out of grapples/into full-attack position. Green may still be a fine rating, though.
YOu might want to mention that Deafening Song Bolt is NO SR for some reason, making it better than many similar spells.
Upped Displacement to yellow.
Changed Arcane Concordance.Jester's Jaunt is Green, because as you note it has some uses but it's not a "must have" necessarily.
Deafening Song Bolt is no SR b/c you're hitting them with a "tangible bolt of arcane energy." It's like your summoned monster doesn't get SR b/c it's been summoned, and then you're just making a physical attack. Good catch though.
I'm going through the spells now and will be doing so more later. A few comments on level 0s:
There's absolutely no reason you have to glow with the Light spell. In fact, that's not even possible, as the range is object touched.
When my bard travels somewhere dark, I cast Light on a feather or marble or something light and use Prestidigitation to hold it out 10' in front of me, and Mage Hand it around corners and stuff.
I've also cast on arrows/sling stones pretty frequently and shot them up ahead to see what's further down the tunnel.
You can also put it on an ally's stuff--your tank, for example--if you must. I think Light is extremely useful, way more so than Dancing Lights.
Message is amazing--you can communicate with your entire party in near silence. It's great.
Oh, and Read Magic is not needed for reading scrolls, by the way--you can use Spellcraft to decipher one, too. I don't have it, and have had no issue with scrolls.
With light you have to cast it on something, and unless you are going to be sticking around where you are (b/c say you are in combat) you have to carry it with you. You can throw a marble down the hall, but you still have to go pick it up to move it. Still it's green.
Message has some uses, but they are uncommon and the range is short.
Read Magic isn't necessary, but it makes it impossible to fail the check.
A tone of very helpful comments
First, I want to say how much I appreciate you taking the time to go through the whole thing. I spend a lot of time writing the guide, so a really appreciate having someone put this much time into it to help make it better. That said the ratings for these spells are more of an art then a science, just because I rate it yellow instead of red isn’t because I don’t think your opinion is correct, but that there is a lot of nuance that goes into the ratings. SO on to the meat!
Abundant Ammunition: I understand that some DMs don’t track arrows but what is a common house rule and what is RAW are two different things. If you are using Manyshot and rapid shot, you go through 5 arrows a round, which means you can easily go through 100 arrows in a decent days work.
Adjuring Step: No save! I can hit you with Sanctuary up I just have to roll an 11+caster stat, not that hard to do that’s why it’s better.
Cause Fear: it’s a green for level 1 spell, I agree it’s pretty weak. CR 4 monster has 5-6HD, so it is useful up to level 5 (non-inclusive). I will add a comment that it begins to lag quickly as you level.
Expeditious Retreat: agree to disagree.
Feather Fall: I agree it’s useful, but it’s still limited.
Fumbletongue: drop it to yellow.
Liberating Command: again, useful but limited. Circumstantial spells are orange. Remember as a spontaneous caster, I want to pick spells that I should use every day, and yes grappling does happen but you won’t be using it every combat, so it’s yellow.
Lock Gaze: thanks.
Moment of Greatness: Yeah the moral/competence for inspire courage was caught a few posts up. What happened was I wanted to make sure that it would stack and I remembered that some of the performances used moral bonuses, so I pulled up the Bard page and hit ctrl-F for “moral” saw it popped up under inspire courage and never looked back. Silly me, I don’t know why they’re two different bonus types. What’re you going to do.
Memory Lapse: I think I just like the idea of this spell a lot; I’m dropping it to orange.
Timely Inspiration: Obviously this is another casualty of the moral/competence mishap. Drops to orange.
Blistering Invective: Demoralize only lasts for one round, maybe 2 or 3 on a very good roll. The reason it’s low is because you have other options to hit enemies for longer duration conditions.
Delay Poison: as with the others, it is situational and a level 2 scroll isn't that expensive. Obviously if you encounter poison more often, this will get a bump in your game.
Gallant Inspiration: agreed.
Glitterdust: agreed as well. I had just spent three sessions fighting invisible rakshasas and I think it was clouding my judgment.
Haunting Mists: not any more so than stinking cloud. It has a range of 20ft, so it effectively appears right in front of you. Obviously I assume that you don’t place it where it will get your allies, just as it is assumed that you don’t fireball your party members either.
Heroism: agreed.
Hold Person: matter of taste, even at high levels it’s common to fight lots of humanoids.
Invisibility: yeah, but if a monster can hear you they can at least locate you.
Mad Hallucination: I like it at green.
Pilfering Hand: Don’t forget it’s not just for maneuvers, it can also be used as a telekinesis effect.
Shatter: again agree to disagree.
Silence: agreed.
Sound Burst: Stun is only for 1 round that’s why it’s orange.
Steal Voice: I agree, since you will likely kill them or never see them again. Dropped to red.
Tactical Acumen: point taken, I still like it at orange
Tongues: you can only Permanence tongues on yourself so you have to know it at least at that point (permanency can be cast from a scroll).
Concordance: this was pointed out in an earlier post, but thanks for the heads up anyway.
Exquisite Accompaniment: I guess I value bardic performance rounds a bit higher that’s all.
Sculpt Sound: Yeah it didn’t even occur to me that you could use this offensively, I was thinking of it as more of an illusion good call.
Terrible Remorse: as you pointed out earlier Hold Person is limited to humanoids, that’s why this is so useful.
Dance of a Hundred cuts: Again with the moral, agree otherwise.
Virtuoso Performance: at level 10, you have about 26+/- rounds per day. Agree it should be blue.
Song of Discord: agreed. Put it at orange.
Deadly Finale: the initial damage is low, but 3d6 bleed each round is high (it’s usually in the single digit) that’s why it is ranked so high. Obviously the duration is low.
Thanks again for the great feedback!
I always read guides--I appreciate the work they take and I enjoy seeing another perspective. I saw several things I would have never taken if not for reading your guide that I am now very interested in. I can agree to disagree on many of these things. Just some return comments:
No save! I can hit you with Sanctuary up I just have to roll an 11+caster stat, not that hard to do that’s why it’s better.
I can hit you while you have Adjuring Step on without making any save at all.
Adjuring Step is no save because it doesn't do anything. Sanctuary does something, so the enemy gets to save against the effect. All Adjuring Step lets you do is take two 5' steps in a turn--and actually prevents you from using any other kind of movement. That's not useful to me at all.
Feather Fall: I agree it’s useful, but it’s still limited.
Liberating Command: again, useful but limited. Circumstantial spells are orange. Remember as a spontaneous caster, I want to pick spells that I should use every day, and yes grappling does happen but you won’t be using it every combat, so it’s yellow.
Bards proportionally to the amount they can cast per day know far more spells than Sorcerers. But I will admit, I play like 90% human characters, so it's hard for me to think of "Spells Known" without assuming I'll be using that favored class bonus to get more of them.
I'm really not arguing that you should take Feather Fall or Liberating Command early on--but with a later spell selection, I think they're both worth it.
I am really curious now, though--what would your full load out of level 1 spells known be for some theoretical bard?
Haunting Mists: not any more so than stinking cloud. It has a range of 20ft, so it effectively appears right in front of you. Obviously I assume that you don’t place it where it will get your allies, just as it is assumed that you don’t fireball your party members either.
Haunting Mists spreads from you just like Obscuring Mist. You are the center of the spell, and it spreads out 20' in all directions from you. That means to avoid your allies, you need to be 20' away from them or more, but for it to be actually useful to you, you also have be near to some enemies. That kind of strands you among the enemy with no nearby allies to bail you out. If you're a tank somehow, I guess it's nice, but otherwise, I would be uncomfortable with that kind of positioning. Further, I don't think you're immune to its effects and you start in the middle of it. Yuck.
Pilfering Hand: Don’t forget it’s not just for maneuvers, it can also be used as a telekinesis effect.
I don't think it can. You can do only four specific things with it: use the Disarm maneuver, use the Steal maneuver, Disable a Device, or pick someone's pockets with Sleight of Hand. After you disarm, steal, or pick pocket successfully, the item you used it on comes to your hand. That's it--it can't do anything else.
Tongues: you can only Permanence tongues on yourself so you have to know it at least at that point (permanency can be cast from a scroll).
Tongues can also be cast from a scroll. I mean, you're the one telling me that you shouldn't have spells you're not going to cast every day, and once its permanent, you won't ever cast it :P
Deadly Finale: the initial damage is low, but 3d6 bleed each round is high (it’s usually in the single digit) that’s why it is ranked so high. Obviously the duration is low.
So, at level 16, you deal 9 average damage initially, and 36.75 average damage with bleeding (10.5 average damage for 3.5 average rounds). That does not seem impressive at all, especially considering any enemy immune to bleed or that can heal themselves or that can make a Fortitude save can ignore pretty much all the bleed. Yeah, you can get 5 or 6 enemies at a time with it, but I'm just totally underwhelmed by that damage for such a high level character and spell slot.
Seriously, this is the spell level at which I can make 16-20 enemies helpless with Overwhelming Presence! If I think they'll fail a save, I might as well make it for helplessness, rather than for some bleed damage.
Anyway, if you're done with spells, I wonder--are you going to touch on the Masterpieces (since you can take one of them instead of a spell known)? I did an unprofessional review of them in a thread a short while back if you're interested.
A lot of useful stuff.
Adjuring Step: your right, my bad.
Liberating Command, Feather Fall: Orange spells aren't a bad choice, but they're not optimal.
Haunting mist- "cloud spreads 20ft radius"
Obscuring mist- "cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius from you"
Regarding Sound Burst:
Stun is only for 1 round that’s why it’s orange.
Stun forces the target to drop everything it's carrying, so the spell can disable item-dependent enemies for two rounds or at least limit them to a standard action attack on the second round. If you have an ally that can take the weapon or kick it away, the debuff can be permanent.
Having said that, an orange or green rating looks correct to me. While I can see a Bard using Sound Burst occasionally, Glitterdust, Cacophonous Call or Hold Person would be better unless the target has an unusually high will save, is immune to enchantments, ignores blindness, or is in a place where Glitterdust would hit allies.
The fact that it's a fort save is another issue for the spell, since item-dependent enemies tend to have great fort saves.
Added in the Gnome Archetype Prankster, can find it on the Racial Feats section.
2) I'm reasonably sure that using it requires ending the performance, which means it's not compatible with finale-type spells. That's certainly the way I choose to run it.
I'm really not sure how you could interpret it that way. Bardic performances continue working 2 rounds after you stop performing. You stop performing as part of the Finale spells. Pretty straightforward.
The finale spells are part of the reason I consider Lingering Performance so very important, but the other part is that performance rounds are important to conserve at every level. Yes, you get more and more rounds per day, but you also get more and more ways to spend them (Masterpieces, for example, or several spells that let you have two songs going at once).
Lingering Performance can almost triple your Performance rounds per day, and in fact I find it more useful later on because it takes less and less of your turn to restart performances (since initially, it's a standard action). Thanks to this feat, I'm never not giving my allies a bonus (well except for round 1 when I haven't acted yet, assuming I don't see it coming).
If the guide allows for it, I'd almost give Lingering Performance a "sky blue" rating--it is the first feat I'd recommend for just about every Bard (not to mention Evangelist and Sensei).
I'm really not sure how you could interpret it that way. Bardic performances continue working 2 rounds after you stop performing. You stop performing as part of the Finale spells. Pretty straightforward.The problem isn't that you can't use Lingering Performance to continue a performance after stopping it for a Finale spell. The problem is that if you actually are using Lingering Performance to get the "almost triple your Performance rounds per day" then that means you have a 2/3rds chance of not having a stoppable performance going that you could stop to activate a Finale spell when you really need one.
So if, say, an ally blows their Fort. save to a Flesh to Stone spell, and you already stopped your performance on the previous round to make use of LP, the situation becomes one of "...well, crap." Whereas a straight-up performance could just slap a Saving Finale on there as an immediate action.
Just personally speaking, I've not found myself to be so performance-round-poor in the (admittedly extremely limited) time I've been playing Pathfinder that it would overshadow other areas my Bard needs feats in much worse. Even when the performance runs out there's still plenty of other stuff my Bard can be doing, and all things considered I actually kinda lean toward buffing those things with my feats, rather than extending my performances at a detriment to my ability to pull off Finales.
If you read up in the thread, you'll see that I originally had it rated at green and most commenters wanted it bumped to blue. I agree that it will not allow you to use a Finale spell, but I think of it more as a "combat is wrapping up so I want to conserve my performance rounds" feat. Also you can use it as a Raging Vitality or Resilient Eidolon, which allows an affect to continue after you fall unconscious.
I'm really not sure how you could interpret it that way. Bardic performances continue working 2 rounds after you stop performing. You stop performing as part of the Finale spells. Pretty straightforward.The problem isn't that you can't use Lingering Performance to continue a performance after stopping it for a Finale spell. The problem is that if you actually are using Lingering Performance to get the "almost triple your Performance rounds per day" then that means you have a 2/3rds chance of not having a stoppable performance going that you could stop to activate a Finale spell when you really need one.
So if, say, an ally blows their Fort. save to a Flesh to Stone spell, and you already stopped your performance on the previous round to make use of LP, the situation becomes one of "...well, crap." Whereas a straight-up performance could just slap a Saving Finale on there as an immediate action.
Just personally speaking, I've not found myself to be so performance-round-poor in the (admittedly extremely limited) time I've been playing Pathfinder that it would overshadow other areas my Bard needs feats in much worse. Even when the performance runs out there's still plenty of other stuff my Bard can be doing, and all things considered I actually kinda lean toward buffing those things with my feats, rather than extending my performances at a detriment to my ability to pull off Finales.
It's worth noting that there's nothing stopping you from starting a new performance in combats that you feel you'll need a finale every so often.
I just had a thought as I was glossing over the Sandman archetype again: In your guide you rated the Dramatic Subtext performance as red because it didn't seem that useful to you but consider the Sneakspell ability that the archetype offers: Disguising your spellcasting as a bardic performance suddenly makes Sneakspell a little more viable. Even though Dramatic Subtext requires two rounds of performance to be useful I'd probably rate it yellow at worst and it might even make Sneakspell green.
Just found this guide and just now starting to look over it.
First, your 20 point for the spellcaster/debuffer build uses 21 points
20 point buy: Str 12 (2), Dex 14 (5), Con 12 (2), Int 12 (2), Wis 10 (0), Cha 16 (10)
2+5+2+2+2+10=21
I'm currently playing a Aasimar Archaeologist Bard with a strength of 7 and a Heavy Crossbow.
-Swiftbrook
As a DM I removed the "run away" element from the Fear mechanic, I impose an additional -2 penalty for each level of Fear [-2, -4, -6]. I've always felt the forced "Benny Hill" mechanic a bit silly.
Does the run away tactic you're using mess up the encounter areas, and make you have to chase down the monsters?
1) When you are using adamantine arrows
These are expensive enough that it will save you thousands of gold.
An adamantine arrow costs 60 gold and 5 copper. A durable adamantine arrow that will never break unless deliberately broken is 61 gold. Abundant Ammunition is still lousy.
2) When you are using poison arrows
I see absolutely no reason to believe that Abundant Ammunition will create poison. It will replace the arrow you take, but it will not replace the poison on that arrow.
If you crafted your own arrow out of wood, metal, and feather and placed poison on it, why would the spell be able to recreate all those other components, but not the poison?
Because it recreates the arrow and the poison is not part of the arrow.
It says it creates the ammunition, and at that point the poison is part of the ammunition. And yes, the poison is a part of the ammunition. If it wasn't, you would have to do two attack rolls.
That doesn't even make sense. Why make two attack rolls? The poison is smeared on the arrowhead. It's not part of the arrow, it's just sitting on the arrow. It doesn't say it duplicates everything attached to the arrow--if that were true, I'd slip a Ring of Three Wishes on an arrow before casting Abundant Ammunition and let this level 1 spell give me infinite wishes.
Or if you want to argue the magical clause, then I'll just make the arrowhead out of a diamond worth 25,000gp. Then I could use a level 1 spell to get infinite material components for Wish or Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrections.
You can't twist the spell to do more than it says. It makes ammo--that's it--not just any random stuff attached to that ammo.
I think mplin is clearly correct on this point.
Hello and thank you for the guide!
Am I missing something about Heroic Finale? It gets a blue rating, but involves burning a standard action, a 4th level spell, and an ongoing performance to grant your ally a move or a standard action. Without being an immediate action where you could use this to save allies or interrupt enemies, I am not sure I see a huge advantage to giving an ally a standard action essentially in place of your own. At least not at the cost of a 4th level spell!
“Sneek Sneek Sneek, away from the scary dragon.”
Really? Not sure if you're making an OOTS joke here, or not, but sneaking is the example specifically given as not being legal.
Yes I was making an OOTS joke. Also, it may be disallowed. Obviously the point of the "sample" songs was more for illustrative purposes than as actual examples of in character actions.
For example, you might cast it to let the party wizard get two powerful spells off in the first round of combatTotally, if that was allowed with Heroic Finale. Can't cast spells with that standard. Tragedy.
The blue 4th level spells for a bard are: Dance of 1000 cuts, Dimension Door, and Virtuoso Performance.
-Cross
I'm not sure why you say it can't be used for a spell
You must have a bardic performance in effect to cast this spell. With a flourish, you immediately end the performance, and one creature within range affected by your bardic performance can make a move action or a standard action of their choice.
It says nothing about restricting the standard action.
Dot
Personally, I don't think you give Sound Striker enough credit, but I won't go any further into that. One thing I would like to mention though, is how powerful a Sound Striker can be when using Virtuoso Performance.
Virtuoso Performance lets you start and maintain two performances, but it doesn't limit you from using the same performance twice. Normally, this doesn't matter as having up two Inspire Courages won't do anything as they don't stack.
But you absolutely can use Weird Words twice a round.
Dealing 20d8+60 (that's using the minimum Cha of 16!) to a target in a round is nothing to sneeze at. Also, since Weird Words requires an attack roll, it could be assumed to work similar to that of Rays and crit on a 20x2. Now that is absolutely up to the GM and is merely a logical observation.
Combining Virtuoso Performance and Shadowbard to give Inspire Courage while blasting foes each round... makes a Sound Striker BBEG a nasty foe.
Or a comma.All the World’s a Stage, and You the Stage DirectorIt's a nice opening, but I think you a verb.
Or both of you need to learn how English works...
"All the world is a stage, and you [are] the stage director". The main verb is there in the 's, and you do not need to repeat a verb twice when it is the same verb:
"My mother took my brother to the store and [took] me to the movies.
If it is good enough for Shakespeare, it is good enough for any English user :P
"is" Does not equal "are" though; the verb's conjugations have to match too.
(Derailing threads? Me? Never!)
Inflection does not change the word itself, any true bard, who has read this guide (see, totally not off topic) would know that from his perform (oratory) skill!
A couple things. 1)Personally, I don't think you give Sound Striker enough credit, but I won't go any further into that. One thing I would like to mention though, is how powerful a Sound Striker can be when using Virtuoso Performance.
Virtuoso Performance lets you start and maintain two performances, but it doesn't limit you from using the same performance twice. Normally, this doesn't matter as having up two Inspire Courages won't do anything as they don't stack.
But you absolutely can use Weird Words twice a round.
Dealing 20d8+60 (that's using the minimum Cha of 16!) to a target in a round is nothing to sneeze at. Also, since Weird Words requires an attack roll, it could be assumed to work similar to that of Rays and crit on a 20x2. Now that is absolutely up to the GM and is merely a logical observation.
Combining Virtuoso Performance and Shadowbard to give Inspire Courage while blasting foes each round... makes a Sound Striker BBEG a nasty foe.
At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10)
2) Weird Words is not a ray, so it can't be modified by feats like a ray (although it may get a crit on a 20).
3) You have to roll an attack separately for each "word." Rolling an attack 10 times means you're going to miss a few times.4) Even if you do hit with all 10, the subject gets a save for half damage, but rolls a separate save for each word. This means that the target is going to get up to 10 chances to save.
Average damage for 10d8+30 (assuming 16 cha) is only 75, but a fort save is a good save for most monsters. A CR 10 monster has a Fort save of +13. A bard 10 w/ 16 Cha would have a save of 18, meaning that monster will save at least 3/4 of the rolls. Which means that the average damage is only 48, and that's if you hit with every one.
5) It maxes at level 10, meaning you will quickly fall behind other blasts.
6) Range is only 30ft, as opposed to a fireball with a range of 100+10/lvl.
7) Because it states that the damage is either slashing/piercing/bludgeoning, it means that this is physical damage that is subject to ...... DR!!!!
I think a Green rating is pretty generous.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Will concede to not having read a large section of the thread (time!) but I would venture to suggest the good old 'Diplomancer' be an aspect of this - a human Celebrity Bard can have a pretty awesome Diplomacy at level 1!
E.g.
Charisma Bonus (+'x'),
Level in Class Skill (+1 & +3),
Famous(+1 and rises with levels),
Feat: Focussed Study (ARG) or skill focus (+3),
Feat: Silver Tongued (ARG) (+2 & can move attitudes 3 steps),
Trait: Patient Optimist (+2 and re-roll),
so say, 18 charisma (+4) that would amount to a +16 Diplomacy bonus at first level PLUS the ability to move attitudes 3 steps PLUS a re-roll shortly after a failed roll ,and this is without the persuasive feat.A lot would depend on the restrictions the DM imposes on 'extreme diplomacy' but it is a viable specialisation for a Bard in my opinion.
Yes, but you just dumped massive resources into Diplomacy. Even with a +16 you sill have to roll a 9 or higher to win over a hostile creature. You also run into the problem that it only works on monster with an Int of 3 or higher that also speaks your language and it requires 1 minute of continuous interaction to work, which means it is of no use in a fight, which is kind of the idea of optimizing. Will you get the best reward from the King after the fact, you bet, but your celebrity won't be helping much to complete the quest before hand since you gave up Inspire Courage for that +1 to diplomacy. Oh and don't forget that the bonus is limited to a specific region dependent on level.
Glad this got bumped into the present day, had not read it before. Very useful for me. Gave me some insights on a few spells and feats I had not considered, even if I did not agree 100% with everything.
The one nit I want to pick with this Guide, is at the end when you highlighted multiclass/prestige class options. You did not list Arcane Archer, which I believe the bard is an ideal choice as the base class.
1) Bard meets the requirements for arcane spells, with better BAB than other arcane casters.
2) As pointed out, a bard is usually a MAD build. Being an archer with a composite bow allows you to make the most out of those spread out ability scores.
3) Obviously an AA bard is not going to be caster dominant, but bard offers very good buffs to compliment the archer.
4) AA with its arrow enhancements (+1 magic, flame, frost, shock etc) gives the bard some spell-like damage options that his spells normally do not.
5) The imbue arrow allows many bard spells to be "cast" at greater range.
6) While AA does not give the bard +1 caster levels on every level, it does give full BAB, which upgrades the Bard's combat ability.
One of the options that you suggested for a bard is to be proficient with a bow, and bow feats. AA seems to be a natural fit.