Updated Pathfinder Bard Guide


Advice

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If I have the cash, I tend to invest in pages of spells known. Wands are also great, because they don't use up my limited spell slots.

Hmm


I have a question about/request of reevaluating the Spellsong feat:

Since you're ranking Spellsong as blue I'd imagine that there are some very good spells with concentration duration that could use the feat? Could you add a few notes in the 'Spells' section about which spells would work well with it?

Out of the 1st to 3rd level spells rated as blue or green I only found 7 spells with the duration of concentration. Among those I'd say that only 3 are actually generally useful in combat. Does this mean that Spellsong isn't that useful and shouldn't be rated as blue (since it's only useful for a very few select set of spells for the first 9 levels of a Bard) or would some of the yellow rated spells be green or even blue with Spellsong? Or is it ranked blue because of later spells (in that case, maybe it should be mentioned that it's not that great the first 9 levels)?

I'm not saying that the guide is wrong, I just wonder why it's rated blue when it's not apparent to me.


Another thing I want to bring up: Doing some research for a post to another thread, I realized that I really shouldn't like Versatile Performance as much as I did (I think).
I'll quote myself from that thread to bring up my point:

Me wrote:

My biggest qualm about Versatile Performance is that it doesn't let you relocate the skill ranks you probably already have invested in those other skills long before level 6, 10, 14 (and 18).

While it does seem like you halve the amount of skill ranks you need to invest to max out, it becomes a trap after certain levels. It's cheaper to keep maxing out the regular skills than to start investing in new Perform skills after a while.
The 2nd level Versatile Performance will save you 18 skill ranks in total (getting both Bluff and Intimidate from 1 rank to 20 would consume 38 ranks, getting Perform (Comedy) to 20 will only cost 20 ranks).
At 6th level, Versatile Performance will save you 10 ranks (30 to max the two regular skills from 5, 20 to max a new perform skill). At 10th level it's 2 ranks saved. At 14th and 18th level it takes 6 to 14 ranks extra, respectively.

So what about retraining? You can retrain skill ranks! Well:
It takes 5 days to retrain a number of skill ranks equal to your INT modifier (or a minimum of 1) which means that it's likely 10*(current level) number of days to retraining skill ranks to gain the full benefit of Versatile Performance (to not have any wasted skill ranks in skills that you replace with a Performance).
60 days to remove all my ranks in both Bluff and Intimidate so that I can invest in Perform (Comedy) and another skill when I gain my second Versatile Performance at level 6. Splitting the retraining up between Bluff and Intimidate equally means that I'll never really hit rock-bottom with any one of the skills and that I'm back on-top after 30 days of retraining while the remaining 30 is to gain ranks in a new skill.
But that's 60 days. And the first 30 I'll actually be worse off than before I started retraining. It doesn't even help to buff Int a bit, since you'll need 14 before it gives any results. And while that would halve the amount of time needed to retrain, 30 days is still a lot and 14 Int is hard to afford.

I remember (a long time ago) thinking that you where allowed to relocate the ranks automatically but I can't find anything supporting that thought.

Waiting till 2nd level isn't a problem. However, 6th level is a bit too long to wait to get some of those skills online, you'll probably want to start putting ranks in some of them before 6th level. The only thing you really can get at that point is the Cha bonus to Acrobatics, Fly, Handle Animal and Sense Motive. Or the Class Skill bonus to Fly, Handle Animal.

Should Versatile Performance really be considered blue in the guide? It seems to grant ~2 skill ranks per level (if you stop putting ranks into corresponding skills as soon as you can switch to Versatile Performance, you'll have conserved a total of 40 skill ranks at level 20 (2 per level), as long as you only make use of the 3 first Versatile Performance gained and ignore those at level 14 and 18) and/or be a taxed by waiting really really long before you get good at some of the staple skills.
Or am I missing something obvious?

EDIT: Should I stop bother posting since the guide is ~4 years old? Or is it still being updated from time to time?


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Rub-Eta wrote:

I have a question about/request of reevaluating the Spellsong feat:

Since you're ranking Spellsong as blue I'd imagine that there are some very good spells with concentration duration that could use the feat? Could you add a few notes in the 'Spells' section about which spells would work well with it?

Out of the 1st to 3rd level spells rated as blue or green I only found 7 spells with the duration of concentration. Among those I'd say that only 3 are actually generally useful in combat. Does this mean that Spellsong isn't that useful and shouldn't be rated as blue (since it's only useful for a very few select set of spells for the first 9 levels of a Bard) or would some of the yellow rated spells be green or even blue with Spellsong? Or is it ranked blue because of later spells (in that case, maybe it should be mentioned that it's not that great the first 9 levels)?

I'm not saying that the guide is wrong, I just wonder why it's rated blue when it's not apparent to me.

Being able to conceal your spellcasting is good. But being able to maintain a concentration and then cast a second spell is what bumps this to blue. Maintain your ____ image spell and still cast another. Since I also rate all the image spells as blue, I think that in itself is enough to rate the feat as blue. These are of course subjective measures and are maters of opinion only.


Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Rub-Eta wrote:

Another thing I want to bring up: Doing some research for a post to another thread, I realized that I really shouldn't like Versatile Performance as much as I did (I think).

As above, It's as much a measure of my opinion as any kind of verifiable fact. I think being able to take skill points you were going to invest anyways and use them in place of another skill check is very valuable. I also rank it as blue because it allows you to use Cha as the modifier for that skill. Instead of putting skill ranks into Acrobatics and needed a decent Dex modifier, I can put them in Perform (dance) which is more useful for me anyways.

If you look at the top page, the guide was last updated about a year ago. I haven't had a chance to include Occult Adventures (although it's mostly just adding spells) and I did not purchase Ultimate Intrigue, but I do update them on occasion.

If you have a question and I don't respond to this thread (most likely b/c I didn't see the post) PM me and I will respond when I can. I am on the message boards most days.


Wouldn't that eat up a lot of Bardic Performance rounds? Or would it be majorly useful in short periods of time? (I'm under the impression that the second usage of the feat must be during a Bardic Performance, unlike the first usage that's combined together with a regular Performance Check).
And btw, only Silent Image is rated blue and has a concentraion duration of the image spells (though many of the others are green).

Many thanks for your time!


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Rub-Eta wrote:

Another thing I want to bring up: Doing some research for a post to another thread, I realized that I really shouldn't like Versatile Performance as much as I did (I think).

I'll quote myself from that thread to bring up my point:
Me wrote:

My biggest qualm about Versatile Performance is that it doesn't let you relocate the skill ranks you probably already have invested in those other skills long before level 6, 10, 14 (and 18).

While it does seem like you halve the amount of skill ranks you need to invest to max out, it becomes a trap after certain levels. It's cheaper to keep maxing out the regular skills than to start investing in new Perform skills after a while.
The 2nd level Versatile Performance will save you 18 skill ranks in total (getting both Bluff and Intimidate from 1 rank to 20 would consume 38 ranks, getting Perform (Comedy) to 20 will only cost 20 ranks).
At 6th level, Versatile Performance will save you 10 ranks (30 to max the two regular skills from 5, 20 to max a new perform skill). At 10th level it's 2 ranks saved. At 14th and 18th level it takes 6 to 14 ranks extra, respectively.

So what about retraining? You can retrain skill ranks! Well:
It takes 5 days to retrain a number of skill ranks equal to your INT modifier (or a minimum of 1) which means that it's likely 10*(current level) number of days to retraining skill ranks to gain the full benefit of Versatile Performance (to not have any wasted skill ranks in skills that you replace with a Performance).
60 days to remove all my ranks in both Bluff and Intimidate so that I can invest in Perform (Comedy) and another skill when I gain my second Versatile Performance at level 6. Splitting the retraining up between Bluff and Intimidate equally means that I'll never really hit rock-bottom with any one of the skills and that I'm back on-top after 30 days of retraining while the remaining 30 is to gain ranks in a new skill.
But that's 60 days. And the first 30 I'll actually be worse off than before I started retraining. It

...

If you use VP for non-critical skills you can make the first three useful without any retraining at all. You suffer through first level on charisma alone and then take oratory. Paladins face without bluff and you can too for four levels without the world ending. Then you grab act for bluff and disguise. The third you take dance. You could live without fly and acrobatics, but having them for based on charisma the price of one skill isn't bad. Past that versatile performance is no longer adding value simply on the basis that there are no more performances where you either want both skills or want one that isn't already charisma based.


If Versatile Performance is to cover non-critical skills, I don't think it should be considered blue.

I can wait till 2nd level. Though it does mean that I have a virtual -4 to the skill, at level 1 (class bonus and 1 rank missing, which is a lot at level 1). But I can't wait till level 6, that's way too late.

This is one of the few things in the game that actually changes value depending on what level you start your character on.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If your GM offers you an auto retrain (something that James Jacobs says he'd wanted to offer to bards), Versatile Performance is awesome. If your GM doesn't (or you're playing PFS), you have to be more careful about how you use your skill points. It's great early on, and not so great the further you go in.

I've played multiple bards. My PFS Kitsune Duettist Bard took Perform Sing for Bluff and Sense Motive, largely because she is an infiltration specialist. She bluffs to blend in and become other people. I decided that I would pay for diplomacy outright and wait on Intimidate and Handle Animal. At level six, I will get Intimidate through bardic performance at the same time that I get Blistering Invective. It'll be perfect timing. I'll never take Perform Dance on Jasmine. My acrobatics as a kitsune with a monkey familiar is awesome. If I trade it in for a perform bonus, my acrobatics will suffer. At tenth, I may decide to just grab something that overlaps my other skills because I don't want to retrain.

My Averakan Arbiter bard on the other hand traded Versatile away for bonus teamwork feats. I dipped an urban bloodrager level in order to get a valet familiar that I can use to self-trigger those teamwork feats, and I'm having a blast with it. It was an okay trade.

Note: If you have some way to boost perform, versatile performance looks much better. It's great on Shelynites with a deific obedience, on musetouched aasimars, and the like. It's a nice ability, but it's not make or break for me when evaluating bard archetypes.

Hmm

Scarab Sages

Even in PFS, retraining skill ranks is an option. How much it will cost is dependent on your Intelligence bonus, so it might end up being expensive. It's 5 days of retraining to change a number of skill ranks equal to your Intelligence bonus (minimum 1). So if you're just putting a single rank in two skills to get the class bonus until you pick up the appropriate Versatile Performance, then you'd only need a 14 Int, 5 prestige, and 300gp to retrain out of them at 6th level. If you only have a 13 Int or lower, you'd double the cost in prestige and gold.

If you're maxing those skills up until 6th level, then it might not be practical, as you'd be looking at retraining 10 ranks (5 per skill).


@Ferious: I'm not playing PFS. Though I'm aware of retraining and mentioned it in one of my earlier posts. And that 30-60 days is too long to be a viable option (and that's already on the 2nd Versatile Performance).


For versatile performance, imo the best option is to invest in a (crimson sphere?) Ioun stone with the associated perform skill.

Scarab Sages

Rub-Eta wrote:
@Ferious: I'm not playing PFS. Though I'm aware of retraining and mentioned it in one of my earlier posts. And that 30-60 days is too long to be a viable option (and that's already on the 2nd Versatile Performance).

Sorry, I missed that you were quoting yourself earlier. Yes, if you're planning to max those skills up until 6th, then it would be a lengthy retrain if you don't have a higher int bonus. In general, though, if the skills you're picking up versatile performance for at 6th are things that you've only thrown 1 rank into to get the class skill bonus, then it's a shorter retrain period. That's what I said in my message. So it all depends on what you're targeting for your 6th level Versatile Performance and whether you're willing to wait to have those skills maxed. You could put 1 rank each into Bluff and Intimidate and end up with somewhere around a +7 or +8 (+10 or +11 with a Circlet of Persuasion). At 6th, you have enough skill points to max Perform: Comedy, giving you around a +13 or so (or +16 with the circlet), then retrain your other two points so you can continue to max your other perform and one other skill (maybe perception or whatever).

Basically, a retrain at 6th level isn't too bad if you're willing to go with less than max ranks up until then. If you absolutely must have max Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate for your first 5 levels, then just choose a versatile performance at 6th that gives you different skills. Like Dance for Acrobatics and Fly.

Yes, this does knock Versatile Performance down a peg. And it's not as useful for your higher level choices, but it's still a 2 for 1 skill investment, so it's not a bad ability.


Looking over the 4th level spell ratings I have to disagree with the poor rating for Greater Path of Glory. Soothing Performance is NOT better than it. GPG heals 5 hit points per round on your entire party. So my 15th level bard can give everyone in my group 75 hit points back in a single casting after the battle ends. And it doesn't use up 4 rounds of performance to do so. It is an awesome spell and should be green at least. Soothing Performance can only heal an average of of 29 hp at 15th level. The only good thing about soothing performance is the cancelling of the listed conditions.


One of my players is a bard, and he has the Spellsong feat, but I'm having a hard time finding good concnetration duration spells that the feat is actually useful for.


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Summon Monster V and Summon Monster VI are awesome spells for EVERY bard not just the spell types. Why? Because those two spells are good for summoning multiple creatures of the level below. For example, with Sum V bring in 1-3 Hound Archons with DR/10 and have them tie up enemies in combat. For Sum VI bring in 1-3 Babau Demons with 73hp each and DR/10 and see how long it takes the enemy to chop through that. Any attacks your opponent's make on a summoned creature means their action was not against you or a party member (so its like they were affected by daze or stun for the round) and the summoned monsters do damage and can cast spells. They also provide flanking, and can block passages, and all kinds of things. With one spell you bring in lots of offfense (withh their spells and attacks) and defense (with their HPs, spells, and ability to tie up enemies). Plus if you take the two summoning feats they are even stronger and you can bring in additional creatures when summoning multiples. These two Summon Monster Spells are the BEST spells available to a Bard and should be the bluest of blue. Heck, even Summon Monster IV is a blue spell because multiple crocodiles are awesome too, for their grab ability. The level 5 Anklyosaurus has a DC 23 stun attack and is a huge creature that is like a wall to the enemy with AC 22 and 75hp. So many options. This is the first spell chosen at each of these levels for a Bard or a Sorcerer.


Bard gets Summon V at level 13; the average AC for that level is 28 and a hound archon has +8 to hit. That means vanilla hound archon needs to roll natural 20 to hit a CR 13 creature. Sure, if you can load them up with buffs, Augment Summons, Inspire Courage, Good Hope, etc, you can greatly improve their use, but you're talking multiple rounds of prep to buff, essentially, trash mobs under your control just so they could, maybe, hit something.

Using a babau at level 16 is a slightly better choice as it only needs a 19+ to hit the average AC of 31, but still much in the same place. One the the things a babau brings, at least, is a SLA worth using in Dispel Magic. You can use them to sit back and spam dispels to try and counter enemy mages if nothing else. Oh, you can, however, use the babau in conjunction with Cloudkill to hem in enemies in a corner as babau are immune to poison. I've used that combo before myself against a party and it really terrified them.

Still, I wouldn't call them the "bluest of the blue" by any means. A good solid choice of a spell? Sure, but not the best choice available of all the spells in the list.


@ Tels - I previously played a lot of Sorcerers so I had forgotten they get the summon monster spells sooner than the Bards. So maybe summoning lower level multiples is not the best choice for offense. But there is still great value in summoning a single Babau or Anklyosaurus as a 13th level caster. Someone in the party (maybe you) should be casting Haste so the Anklyosaurus can make two stunning attacks at a +15 (hasted) and +17 with easy flanking, so then it only needs an 11+ to hit (Buffing will only make it easier). It still makes a good meat shield. For Sum Mon VI bring forth a Dire Tiger (105hp +18 Att) or a Huge Earth Elemental (Reach, DR, 95hp, +17 Att, burrow for easy flanking) or an Erinyes (94hp, DR, True Seeing, three ranged attacks or entangle) or a Succubus. Again the options are many and there are still great choices so I contend this is still a blue spell and should be the first spell chosen for its versatility.


I was looking at this guide because I was looking at making a bard and I have a comment on the voice of the wild archetype:

This guide rates it as red, however, if you are making an archer bard, there is no better archetype. This archetype allows you to add gravity bow, barkskin, named bullet and greater named bullet at levels 1-4.


And those are good spells. Not in comparison to all the things you lose though; check out the arrowsong minstrel for the archer bard done right, or a hunter for a character which gets more use out of them.


Arrowsong has diminished spellcasting and can't get named bullet added to his list. I still prefer voice of the wild. I prefer a dip into a martial class to get longbow and divine hunter paladin gets you precise shot or ilsurian ranger gets you bullseye shot.

The concept I was looking at doesn't resemble a bard (except for inspire courage). I wouldn't say this makes voice of the wild blue, but for certain builds it's not red.


Hi To every one, I have just started to play pathfinder :) we have a DM that play from like 30 years :) :) :)

becouse we are all new, the DM made our pg whith the stats for the 1st level :)

We are 6 in total:

1 witch (she don't play a lot anymore :(:(:( )
1 barbarian (now level 2)
1 cleric (now 2lvl cleric /1lvl oracle)
1 sorcerer (2 lvl conjurer)
1 fighter (2 lvl)
1 bard ( me 3 lvl)[iconic Lem/halfling]

this are my stats:

STR 8
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 10
CHA 18

I already have weapon finesse,
I'll take the feat to deal damage whith dex.

I want to take 7 level in bard, than swich to Dragon Disciple becouse I like the Dragon :) :) :)
I'd like to do some melee and some spell.

and now I'd like to ear something from you.

Please give me some good suggestion

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