Truthfully, It's probably just an oversight on my part. Crosswind is right though, you do lose all performance progression and 3 caster levels and they lack good imbued spells.
Perhaps AA won't work for every bard build. Currently playing an Archaelogist/AA, and having high dex for bow use complements the Archaelogist Disable Device and Stealth. Also, that type of bard does not actually have Perform, and so all I am boosting is the Archaelogist Luck ability. Lingering Performance and using the 1/2 elf favored class option to add a round of bard performance gives plenty of "luck" per day. In the AP our party is in, we are not going to get much beyond 14th level, so have not explored what the highest level bard spells are for Imbue Arrow. At the lower levels, Grease, Silence, and Glitterdust have worked very well, though. I would also add Darkness...but putting Darkness around your target just does not work that well for an archer, until you get a Bow of Seeking, or Improved Precise Shot.
But you absolutely can use Weird Words twice a round.
No you can't
Bardic Performance: A sound striker gains the following type of bardic performance. Neither performance can be performed more quickly than a standard action.
Virtuoso Performance allows you to start a second Bardic Performance while maintaining another. One could start Inspire Courage, then cast Virtuoso Performance (because at this point Bards can start a Performance as a move action). Next round, the Bard can end Inspire Courage and have it linger via the Lingering Performance feat, to perform a Weird Words Performance, and after that is done, Virtuoso Performance would allow him to start another Weird Words.
Spells are designed for characters to break some rules in the game. Normally, you can't stand up from prone without provoking an attack of opportunity, but the spell Blessing of Fervor allows one to not only stand up without provoking, it also allows them to do so as a swift action. The spell Virtuoso Performance is designed to allow a Bard to have use two Performances in a round. Keep in mind, it's taking a 4th level Bard spell, and 3 rounds of performance to use Weird Words twice a round.
A couple things. 1)Personally, I don't think you give Sound Striker enough credit, but I won't go any further into that. One thing I would like to mention though, is how powerful a Sound Striker can be when using Virtuoso Performance.
Virtuoso Performance lets you start and maintain two performances, but it doesn't limit you from using the same performance twice. Normally, this doesn't matter as having up two Inspire Courages won't do anything as they don't stack.
But you absolutely can use Weird Words twice a round.
Dealing 20d8+60 (that's using the minimum Cha of 16!) to a target in a round is nothing to sneeze at. Also, since Weird Words requires an attack roll, it could be assumed to work similar to that of Rays and crit on a 20x2. Now that is absolutely up to the GM and is merely a logical observation.
Combining Virtuoso Performance and Shadowbard to give Inspire Courage while blasting foes each round... makes a Sound Striker BBEG a nasty foe.
At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10)2) Weird Words is not a ray, so it can't be modified by feats like a ray (although it may get a crit on a 20).
Yes, I know, hence the 'similar to that of Rays' comment I bolded above. I didn't mention feats, but in Pathfinder, anything that requires an attack roll and deals damage, can crit. Weird Words does both, so each one can crit, albeit, on a 20x2.
3) You have to roll an attack separately for each "word." Rolling an attack 10 times means you're going to miss a few times.
Keep in mind that each attack is a touch attack and uses your highest BAB; a Sound Striker would probably have close to a +15 at 10th. Most creatures don't have a very high touch AC, so it's likely you'll only miss on a natural 1.
4) Even if you do hit with all 10, the subject gets a save for half damage, but rolls a separate save for each word. This means that the target is going to get up to 10 chances to save.
This is a big downside for Weird Words. The fortitude save and DR a the real weakness for the Words, but I think that's perfectly fine.
Average damage for 10d8+30 (assuming 16 cha) is only 75, but a fort save is a good save for most monsters. A CR 10 monster has a Fort save of +13. A bard 10 w/ 16 Cha would have a save of 18, meaning that monster will save at least 3/4 of the rolls. Which means that the average damage is only 48, and that's if you hit with every one.
I understand that all perfectly well. The Sound Striker is never going to be the main damage dealing member of a party, but what it really does is give the Bard another option of contributing.
10d8+30 is nothing to sneeze at for an average of 75/48 (depending on saves), considering at the same time the Bard might not have many other high damaging effects. An Archer bard is going to be sitting on an attack bonus of something like 14/14/14/9 assuming Rapid Shot, Haste, a +2 bow and a 20 dex, against the average AC of 24, meaning you have a 50/50 chance on your best attack. Conversely, Weird Words is nearly guaranteed damage.
This damage also doesn't take into account the possibility of crits, or the possibility of producing two Weird Word performances a round. It is also with the minimum Cha a Bard should have of 16, for spells. A Sound Striker that focuses more on Cha than Dex would be able to dramatically increase his potential damage output.
5) It maxes at level 10, meaning you will quickly fall behind other blasts.
This is true, but most blasts don't scale well into the later game, unless you dedicate the entire career to one specific blast. Weird Words gives a non-blasting class a somewhat decent blast without any real effort.
6) Range is only 30ft, as opposed to a fireball with a range of 100+10/lvl.
Fireball's range is 400 ft + 40 ft/level, but that's neither here nor there. True, the range isn't great, but that's fine as it limits the ability from being broken.
7) Because it states that the damage is either slashing/piercing/bludgeoning, it means that this is physical damage that is subject to ...... DR!!!!
DR is a weakness for all physical attacks. Some people can overcome them, others can't, At 10th level, some people may just have gotten their first +3 weapon, which helps them overcome certain DR types, but they won't be plowing through everything. Again, Weird Words gives the Bard options. It also excels at dispatching mooks. Against 5 mooks, a 10th level Bard could target each one with 2 Words dealing 2d10+10 (or 4d10+20 using Virtuoso Performance). It's almost like a Fireball (but not as good)
I think a Green rating is pretty generous.
I think a Green Rating is exactly where the Sound Striker should be, but I also felt that the Sound Striker wasn't given enough credit. In my opinion, Sound Striker works good for a support damage dealer, but it works great for a bad guy.
Also, something people aren't taking into account is the bad ass cinematics of the Sound Striker. Consider the image of a a violinist playing a soothing song in a dungeon as a bunch of orcs run up to ambush her. As they approach, they salivate at the thought of destroying such a delicate female, when she turns on the spot. Suddenly the once beautiful music becomes discordant, and painful to hear. Invisible blades of sound slice through the air, shredding the attacking orcs, after which the violinist returns to playing her soothing song as the corpses of her attackers are left dismantled behind her.
Or the image of a guy with a guitar approaching a door that defies all lock picks. He strums a few notes on his guitar, producing a sound that resembles the dying screeches of a rabit, than the beautiful notes of a guitar. Suddenly, after the sound stops, the hinges of the door are destroyed, and the door topples over.
(The above has nothing to do with optimising, but the images produced by what your character is capable of should always be taken into account. Also, I've been playing too much Borderlands Mr. Torgue DLC, so everything has to be bad ass right now)
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But you absolutely can use Weird Words twice a round.
No you can't
Bardic Performance: A sound striker gains the following type of bardic performance. Neither performance can be performed more quickly than a standard action.
Virtuoso Performance allows you to start a second Bardic Performance while maintaining another. One could start Inspire Courage, then cast Virtuoso Performance (because at this point Bards can start a Performance as a move action). Next round, the Bard can end Inspire Courage and have it linger via the Lingering Performance feat, to perform a Weird Words Performance, and after that is done, Virtuoso Performance would allow him to start another Weird Words.
Spells are designed for characters to break some rules in the game. Normally, you can't stand up from prone without provoking an attack of opportunity, but the spell Blessing of Fervor allows one to not only stand up without provoking, it also allows them to do so as a swift action. The spell Virtuoso Performance is designed to allow a Bard to have use two Performances in a round. Keep in mind, it's taking a 4th level Bard spell, and 3 rounds of performance to use Weird Words twice a round.
Virtuoso Performance does not give you an extra standard action for bard songs."While this spell is active, you may start a second bardic performance while maintaining another. Starting the second performance costs 2 rounds of bardic performance instead of 1. Maintaining both performances costs a total of 3 rounds of bardic performance for each round they are maintained. When this spell ends, one of the performances ends immediately (your choice)."
You never maintain Weird Words it is a standard action to activate, done. Your example works until you try and use two Weird Words in one round as you still only have one standard action to use.
Now if that bard was also a 9th level Pathfinder Chronicler it would be a different story.
My favorite Bard is a Diva that spends all his time casting buffs.
First round: Haste
Second Round: Good Hope
Third Round: Tactical Acumen
Inspire Courage first round. Before level 7, do it the second round.
Get into flank position with your BSF. Diva's armor bonus allows you to do this without much worry if you're keeping your armor up to snuff.
8th Level bard (When you can learn both Haste and Good Hope)
Inspire Courage +2 to-hit (+2 damage)
Tactical Acumen +1 to-hit (As long as you keep flank)
Flank +2 to hit (Yes I'm counting this as a "Buff")
Haste +1 to hit
Good Hope +2 to hit +2 Damage (And +2 saving throws - Rival for best buff evah)
Total bonus: +8 to hit, +4 damage. You and your BSF naturally have a second attack at this point - and now it's three better than your unbuffed first attack.
I would equip a big 2-handed sword (Via feat or Exotic Weapon Proficiency) and start bashing on your enemies starting on the 4th round - make sure you keep that flank for the Tactical Acumen bonus.
13th Level Bard is when this build really shines, because you get Bard's Escape if you're having a hard time getting that flank (And your total bonuses are +10 at this point - which makes your third attacks as good as your unbuffed first attacks.)
With a Duo party (Just you and a BSF) this is incredible for damage output already. With a melee Cleric and a Rogue, this is 100% killer, because now they're enjoying their own time as flanking buddies.
(For best results, everyone should pick up the Outflank feat for an additional +2 when flanking. Everyone should also definitely have Power Attack - and if you have a tendency to get to that 4th round attack off - aka the monster isn't dead - then Cornugan Smash isn't a bad idea either.)
Now obviously you couldn't do this every combat since you'll run out of spells likely after the first combat you do this, but it's pretty amazing when you can pull it off.
In either case, I like being a Melee Bard because every melee adventurer likes a flanking buddy and Bards are all about buffing your party. Diva just helps you stay alive as you level up and can use heavier armor.
Arcane Duelist is probably overall better than Diva at higher levels, but in most campaigns I play in, that level 13 I mentioned is about when things are wrapping up.
And Yeah, I'd never give up Inspire Courage. It's an amazing bonus that stacks with everything.
My favorite Bard is a Diva that spends all his time casting buffs.
First round: Haste
Second Round: Good Hope
Third Round: Tactical Acumen
You may want to consider buying a Lesser quicken metamagic rod so in round one you can Inspire Courage, cast Good Hope and Haste 3x per day.
You may want to consider buying a Lesser quicken metamagic rod so in round one you can Inspire Courage, cast Good Hope and Haste 3x per day.My favorite Bard is a Diva that spends all his time casting buffs.
First round: Haste
Second Round: Good Hope
Third Round: Tactical Acumen
Oh, if it's available, definitely.
Under Archaeologist section: Esoteric Scholar is pretty redundant. You keep Bardic Knowledge with this archetype.
Good to see an updated guide; Treantmonk's is getting quite old.
I'm missing the Dawnflower Dervish, though. Are you going to add it? I wonder how it would stack up to Arcane Duelist in your opinion. DD also makes Bard an attractive dipping class for Dex-based characters.
It's not there because I kept the guide to hardcovers only because it's already over 30 pages long.
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It's not there because I kept the guide to hardcovers only because it's already over 30 pages long.Good to see an updated guide; Treantmonk's is getting quite old.
I'm missing the Dawnflower Dervish, though. Are you going to add it? I wonder how it would stack up to Arcane Duelist in your opinion. DD also makes Bard an attractive dipping class for Dex-based characters.
So what's your take on the Dawnflower Dervish, outside the scope of the guide...? ;)
The double effectiveness self only inspire is very nice, I think they'd make great archers / switch hitters. I've not run the maths but I suspect Dervish Dancer is ultimately better for a melee focused character since they (effectively) gain pounce.
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7) Because it states that the damage is either slashing/piercing/bludgeoning, it means that this is physical damage that is subject to ...... DR!!!!
Where do you get this? It is a supernatural ability which bypasses DR as stated in the Bestiary under Damage Reduction. Just because it is a physical damage type does not mean that it loses the benefit of being a supernatural ability. As far as I have seen, there has been no errata or definitive posts showing Weirds Words is affected by DR.
7) Because it states that the damage is either slashing/piercing/bludgeoning, it means that this is physical damage that is subject to ...... DR!!!!Where do you get this? It is a supernatural ability which bypasses DR as stated in the Bestiary under Damage Reduction. Just because it is a physical damage type does not mean that it loses the benefit of being a supernatural ability. As far as I have seen, there has been no errata or definitive posts showing Weirds Words is affected by DR.
Although the Bestiary definition of Damage Reduction (page 299) says "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities," that's actually just referring to damage that isn't specifically called out as being of a particular type, such as fire damage or piercing damage. In other words, DR doesn't protect against "typeless damage" from magical attacks.
However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon. (Otherwise the magical attack might as well not have a damage type, as it would only interface with B/P/S damage in a very few corner cases, such as whether or not an ooze splits from that attack.)
For example, the ice storm spell deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage. If you cast ice storm at a group of zombies, the zombie's DR 5/slashing protects them against 5 points of the spell's bludgeoning damage. Their DR doesn't help them against the spell's cold damage because DR doesn't apply to energy attacks.—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/06/13
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I have a couple questions here...firstly, the Dervish Dancer - you've got it rated really high, but most of its abilities are dances, so they don't stack, unless I'm reading it wrong.
Also...what about Aasimar as a race? They've got the +1/2 level to a performance as a favored class option - that could be very nice. Especially on a dawnflower dervish...
Speaking of dawnflower dervishes, do we know whether they lose normal party buff performances? The way I read it the dance is an option and they keep the normal too:
Also, duh, sorry - I just noticed that the nonstandard races are in a different section. But with azata-blooded I'd definitely rate them higher, personally - dex and cha, glitterdust SLA, diplo and perform bonuses? Want!
Really enjoyed reading your guide, and I learned a lot about the Bard in the process! But I do want to say, I can't help but disagree with your rating of enter image. My group's bard has taken the spell and it has had all sorts of usage already. Uses of note:
- Nothing says it has to be a stationary image. Slide a picture of your face under a door and see the room behind it!
- Attach your picture to your familiar and you can take your direct line of sight all sorts of places.
- Since you can interact with the painting's environment, it's not hard to create a place to hide and spy on stuff. Duration is concentration, too.
- Concentration duration two-way communication can be pretty nifty stuff.
- Paint your face on say, a rock, or an arrow, and you can launch your range of sight pretty far. Over walls, into camps, etc etc.
- Is your scout also the most knowledgeable person in the group? Paint your face on her face and now she is. Same goes for any other skill you need that the bard has. Hell, put your face on things that don't matter, and run diplomacy from the safety of your own home.
Maybe I'm wrong, and these are all useless things, but I feel like maybe they're not? I'm curious either way
This is a great guide, thank you!
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but in the discussion of damage/blaster bard it seems that thundercaller is hands-down way better than sound striker. You get SONIC damage first, then electricity damage later.
And, you don't have to roll to hit EVER. Using lingering performance and an average charisma you will literally have dozens of rounds of use.
Plus if you pick a race like aasimar (with a favored class bonus of +1/2 higher level for a given bard performance) you can be doing good damage earlier and earlier.
I think this would be great for a caster bard. My only question (to anyone who can help) is what do you do until 3rd level when your abilities kick in? It doesn't make sense to invest in weapon/combat feats because once you can thundercall you really don't have to attack with a weapon ever. Use a whip or net? I think aid another is not appreciated enough, so that's one choice to help in combat.
Appreciate the advice. (And if it's relevant, I'm thinking of specifically using an aasimar thundercaller. With the alternate racial trait that gives flight 20' this could be very fun!).
This is a great guide, thank you!
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but in the discussion of damage/blaster bard it seems that thundercaller is hands-down way better than sound striker. You get SONIC damage first, then electricity damage later.
And, you don't have to roll to hit EVER. Using lingering performance and an average charisma you will literally have dozens of rounds of use.
Plus if you pick a race like aasimar (with a favored class bonus of +1/2 higher level for a given bard performance) you can be doing good damage earlier and earlier.I think this would be great for a caster bard. My only question (to anyone who can help) is what do you do until 3rd level when your abilities kick in? It doesn't make sense to invest in weapon/combat feats because once you can thundercall you really don't have to attack with a weapon ever. Use a whip or net? I think aid another is not appreciated enough, so that's one choice to help in combat.
Appreciate the advice. (And if it's relevant, I'm thinking of specifically using an aasimar thundercaller. With the alternate racial trait that gives flight 20' this could be very fun!).
It's worth noting that the Sound Striker is undergoing an errata/slight-playtest at the moment for a huge nerf. In the course of the thread, the Thundercaller has been brought up many times and it seems he may be getting huge nerf as well.
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...in the discussion of damage/blaster bard it seems that thundercaller is hands-down way better than sound striker. You get SONIC damage first, then electricity damage later.
And, you don't have to roll to hit EVER. Using lingering performance and an average charisma you will literally have dozens of rounds of use.
I've read over Lingering Performance and it doesn't seem like it would work for the Thundercaller's performances, as they don't provide bonuses or penalties. Any thoughts on this?
I have a couple questions here...firstly, the Dervish Dancer - you've got it rated really high, but most of its abilities are dances, so they don't stack, unless I'm reading it wrong.
I also understand it that way and would also like to know if others interpret it differently.
Thanks very much for the guide. And thanks a lot that you keep it updated. A lot of things were already obvious to me, but some things I learned. What I like a lot is your rating/evaluation of spells, even if I differ in some cases - it makes it easier for the player to make a preliminary selection.
I would perhaps rate Euphoric Tranquility higher, because I often saw it used efficiently in high level play - virtually no save. Take out dragons, giants and so on (if you overcome their SR).
What about an equipment guide?
Seems like a lot of Pathfinder class guides have little and sometimes no equipment suggestions.
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Can you please amend the feat section? Silent Spells cannot be used by Bards.I started this thread for discussion of my updated Bard Guide. This was one of the few that hadn't been updated since Treantmonk did it and it was somewhat incomplete even then.
Any suggestions are more than welcome. I've only just started the Spells section (as you can likely tell) and I haven't quite gotten to equipment or Multiclassing, but the bulk of the work is there so I wanted to get it out for people to get a look at.
Hope you like it.
I was about to note the same thing. Silent Spell specifically calls out that bard spells can not be silenced.
I was about to note the same thing. Silent Spell specifically calls out that bard spells can not be silenced.Can you please amend the feat section? Silent Spells cannot be used by Bards.I started this thread for discussion of my updated Bard Guide. This was one of the few that hadn't been updated since Treantmonk did it and it was somewhat incomplete even then.
Any suggestions are more than welcome. I've only just started the Spells section (as you can likely tell) and I haven't quite gotten to equipment or Multiclassing, but the bulk of the work is there so I wanted to get it out for people to get a look at.
Hope you like it.
Removed Silent Spell
Removed Silent Spell
Speaking of which... what kind of defence does a Bard have against magical silence? Their spellcasting gets shut down and most of their Performances won't work either.
Are there any good bard stuff in the Advanced Class Guide?
I did not find good bard staff in the ACG, but maybe I've overlooked some.
The feats that boost Dirge of Doom can be useful as well, particularly if you don't play up to 14th level when the bard gets Frightening Tune.
The Spell Lattices are quite nice magic items. They are like having another spell per day and they cost only half the price of Runestones (they only apply to class spells).
Updated spell section with ACG spells
I would give some extra love for Goblins...
Using the Battle Singer feat, you grant your Inspire Courage bonus to all saves to everyone who can speak Goblin in your party... this might seem very limited, but when you combine it with one of the "selfish" performers (Dervish Dancer and Dawnflower Dervish), along with the Goblins naturally high DEX, it can be quite a strong combination.
Does the recent Sound Striker FAQ change your rating for the archetype?
Does the recent Sound Striker FAQ change your rating for the archetype?
Yes it seems you went from Orange/green to just orange?
It seems to be a big buff to me but maybe I'm missing something
Does the recent Sound Striker FAQ change your rating for the archetype?Yes it seems you went from Orange/green to just orange?
It seems to be a big buff to me but maybe I'm missing something
It would be green to me. Actually, I would probably consider it blue, even though it isn't THAT good. I just REALLY like it because it is very "Dune-like" and yet keeps the important bard qualities/abilities.
Weirdword=Weirding way! "Moah-DHIB!"
Is Expanded Arcana a good feat for a bard?(1 extra spell of any level or 2 of 1 level below highest)
Possibly, though wands and scrolls may be better.