I just wish they'd resolve him and move on. The whole rest of the show is gritty and filled with angst, and then there's Ray.
No thanks. Ray makes the show tolerable.
And I'm tired of ganking allies. Gets old, fast. (Keeping Firestorm alive, and a potential ally when the writers feel like it, made Flash that much of a better show.)
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But in any case, the dumb has been strong in this show for the last little while (well... stronger than usual).
Everything from the previously-mentioned-in-this-thread Arrow's return, to the hilarious comment from Slade (paraphrased) "You're growing apart from Thea - I can see it in your eyes". Ah, the most overused CW nonsensical quote, used yet again. Especially hilarious when it's abundantly clear in the show that - due to events/skills - Oliver has never been as close to Thea as he is right now. But... CW.
Oh, and the city seems to be filled - entirely - with the worst investigators the world has to offer. Ray: "Hood! Arrows! The Arrow must now be EVIL!" Right. Because no one else in the world can wear a hood and shoot arrows.
Gah.
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My biggest issue with this season so far has been the major down step in villain influence in the city, Starling city's importance in the overall narrative and the importance of Oliver Queen the secret identity as a whole to that narrative.
Like the whole 1st season was a setup for how important his hometown, his company, and the remains of his family were to Oliver and how a lot of this quest was focused on his quest to both protect and better all of them in a more meaningful way. And what's been really sad is how little that has started to matter as this season moves on. I mean hell S1 his villains were literal corporate villains that no one else could reach and had the power to hire super villains but this season excluding Ras and co most of his antagonists have been low level goons that have been shown to be well within the capacity for the police to handle with maybe the exception of Brick.
The other thing that's bothered me is how little we get to see of what Oliver Queen's been doing as Oliver Queen since this season started. Like he just lost his mom, his girlfriend, his company, and until recently his sister. What the hell is he doing when not under the hood? Is he trying to recoup Queen Consolidated since it's been so important to him for the last 2 seasons, where/what the hell does the rest of the city think of him now that he's lost control and had basically become a shut in as far as we've seen, and does he think that his plain clothes self is even worthwhile or useful in his crusade?
Seriously this is the stuff I wanted/want/wanting to see this season talk about but fear we're not going to get. Like it would be great to actually see Oliver Queen the secret identity become important again in the narrative and start pulling his weight as a force for good for the city alongside his arrow slinging counter part. Like trying to legitimately fix the damage in the Glades and help bounce their city out of the corrupt economic depression it's been in while as the Arrow fighting legit threats to that like Brick, Super powered heavies, and the forces who benefit from Starlings decline like Brother Blood or S1 Malcolm. That would be cool.
The other thing that's bothered me is how little we get to see of what Oliver Queen's been doing as Oliver Queen since this season started. Like he just lost his mom, his girlfriend, his company, and until recently his sister. What the hell is he doing when not under the hood? Is he trying to recoup Queen Consolidated since it's been so important to him for the last 2 seasons, where/what the hell does the rest of the city think of him now that he's lost control and had basically become a shut in as far as we've seen, and does he think that his plain clothes self is even worthwhile or useful in his crusade?
And how does he PAY for all that gear in the Arrow Cave? Being filthy rich is a time honored explanation for massive toys... but going bankrupt and not getting a day job? He goes through a LOT of arrows/fuel/food... how's he paying for it? Who's he mooching off of? Is Felicity embezzeling from Palmer?
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soap operas make more sense than this show
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And how does he PAY for all that gear in the Arrow Cave? Being filthy rich is a time honored explanation for massive toys... but going bankrupt and not getting a day job? He goes through a LOT of arrows/fuel/food... how's he paying for it? Who's he mooching off of? Is Felicity embezzeling from Palmer?
The other thing that's bothered me is how little we get to see of what Oliver Queen's been doing as Oliver Queen since this season started. Like he just lost his mom, his girlfriend, his company, and until recently his sister. What the hell is he doing when not under the hood? Is he trying to recoup Queen Consolidated since it's been so important to him for the last 2 seasons, where/what the hell does the rest of the city think of him now that he's lost control and had basically become a shut in as far as we've seen, and does he think that his plain clothes self is even worthwhile or useful in his crusade?
Thea has Merlyn's dosh (hence why they froze her assets today, so Ollie couldn't use them to escape).
Plus, I was under the impression that Oliver still had money. He just went from "stupid rich" to "comfortably well-to-do".
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And how does he PAY for all that gear in the Arrow Cave? Being filthy rich is a time honored explanation for massive toys... but going bankrupt and not getting a day job? He goes through a LOT of arrows/fuel/food... how's he paying for it? Who's he mooching off of? Is Felicity embezzeling from Palmer?
The other thing that's bothered me is how little we get to see of what Oliver Queen's been doing as Oliver Queen since this season started. Like he just lost his mom, his girlfriend, his company, and until recently his sister. What the hell is he doing when not under the hood? Is he trying to recoup Queen Consolidated since it's been so important to him for the last 2 seasons, where/what the hell does the rest of the city think of him now that he's lost control and had basically become a shut in as far as we've seen, and does he think that his plain clothes self is even worthwhile or useful in his crusade?
Thea has Merlyn's dosh (hence why they froze her assets today, so Ollie couldn't use them to escape).
Plus, I was under the impression that Oliver still had money. He just went from "stupid rich" to "comfortably well-to-do".
Yeah they say he still has his trust fund but it's not like it was. Also you'd think Thea wouldn't get much from Merlin considering his actions in S1 which I assume would have seized most of his assets and likely bankrupted the company for ya know, sinking half the city in an attempted economic genocide.
The big thing for me though is why hasn't he been focusing on trying to wrest control of his company back or build anew? We know he thinks of that company as his birthright and as something he can use as a net good to help Starling but so far we've seen nothing on his side to get it back. On top of that his impact as the Arrow by fighting crime has kind of gone down this season with him cycling from fighting corrupt business tycoons, war profiteers, and bad politicians and his segway is to street level crime? It's probably the biggest issue the season has had thus far.
Also what do the people of Starling think he's been doing? I mean tabloids were likely already following him and considering in his 3 years here he/his family have been the center of all the biggest stories in likely decades. What do they think he's been up to this whole time?
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Couple of comments.
IQ: It depends on what scale you use. One of the widest known and used tests is the Wechsler adult intelligence scale (or WAIS). Genius level (or "Very Superior") on that scale starts at 130, so Ray is well into to the genius level if his 140 is on that scale. He's also shown to be very smart in some areas, while still stumbling in others (hence why Felicity has been able to solve some of his problems).
Ray Palmer/ATOM: He's going to be around as he's one of the people who'll be in the spin-off series. As for his shrinking abilities... yeah, there'll probably be "side-effects" to him being injected with his nano-technology (que flashback of the hospital scene and his seizure). Then they just have to figure out how to shrink his suit too, but, as mentioned above, Felicity will apparently help with that too.
Stupid show/complaints: I'll reiterate what I've written several times before. If you think the show is that stupid, stop watching it!
If you continue watching it and then come here to b$*@$ about how stupid, sad, wrong, boring, CW'esque etc. it is, then all that does is show you to be someone who watches a show they don't like in order to go online and b&#@@ about it.
But maybe that's your sthick...
There has been a constant theme this season of everybody telling Ollie he's wrong and that he should listen to other people.
And almost universally so far, if they'd listened to Ollie instead, things would be a whole lot better than they are right now =\
Roy just does not think straight. How does this logic work?
"While I was under the influence of a drug that was forced on me, not in control of my own actions, I killed a man so I deserve to be in prison. I'll claim to be the Arrow, so prison can be avoided for a man who made the choice to kill several people while in full control of his faculties."
Yeah, Roy killed a cop, Ollie killed "bad guys." Yes, I feel bad for the cop's family. Did Ollie's victims not have families? Roy's involuntary manslaughter would seem to fall way short of the straight-up serial killings Ollie carried out at the start of the Arrow's career in Starling.
I love the show, but it continues to bug me that everyone is willing to give Ollie a pass on multiple murders simply because he's decided not to do it any more.
Roy just does not think straight. How does this logic work?
"While I was under the influence of a drug that was forced on me, not in control of my own actions, I killed a man so I deserve to be in prison. I'll claim to be the Arrow, so prison can be avoided for a man who made the choice to kill several people while in full control of his faculties."
Yeah, Roy killed a cop, Ollie killed "bad guys." Yes, I feel bad for the cop's family. Did Ollie's victims not have families? Roy's involuntary manslaughter would seem to fall way short of the straight-up serial killings Ollie carried out at the start of the Arrow's career in Starling.
I love the show, but it continues to bug me that everyone is willing to give Ollie a pass on multiple murders simply because he's decided not to do it any more.
Should police that shoot suspects who shoot at them be considered bad guys and locked away? Does the badge on their chest suddenly make killing morally right? I ask, because the only difference is that one is directly sanctioned by the state.
But if you stop and say, "Whelp, Ollie deserves to go to jail for that", then... well, that's the end of the series, right?
He certainly deserves to go to trial for that, even if he ends up being acquitted or has the verdict set aside for some reason. I realize that was problematic while keeping his identity secret. It doesn't bother me that the show runners give him pass as much as it does that the other characters do. For varying lengths of time he's had Det./Capt. Lance being willing to overlook it, along with ADA Laurel, and the group's moral center, Felicity. No one seems even a little conflicted.
Should police that shoot suspects who shoot at them be considered bad guys and locked away? Does the badge on their chest suddenly make killing morally right? I ask, because the only difference is that one is directly sanctioned by the state.
The response to this becomes tricky because of all the recent press cops are getting about pumping 41 shots into unarmed persons, or beating people to death after they've been fully restrained. I have my opinions about that, and don't care to discuss it here. For purposes of this discussion I'll assume all cops are "good guys" doing their job as they've been trained. With that in mind...
Police that shoot suspects who shoot at them, or at innocent bystanders, are doing their jobs and should not be punished or vilified for doing so. Police are empowered to do this, by society, because they've been screened, hired and trained to do the dangerous job of protecting the public. Lethal force is not their first or preferred option; it's used when necessary after they've tried to de-escalate the situation, or use non-lethal means to counter the suspect. Their uniforms, badges and methods of engaging suspects (i.e., ) serve to notify bad guys that certain consequences may result from failure to comply with an order to desist.
Early Season One Ollie, OTOH, didn't wait for, or limit himself to responding to, life-threatening situations. He'd show up at someone's office, declare they'd failed the city while aiming a lethal weapon at them, and thereby provoke an armed response. He wasn't screened or hired by anyone, has no mandate from the public to act on their behalf, and unlike policemen, pretty much all of his training has been on the effective kill. He never made an effort to de-escalate a tense situation (still doesn't) and lethal force was at the time his first, preferred and only option.
Later declaring oneself a Hero doesn't suddenly put a person above law or morality, or erase past actions. Ollie can't go to jail; the show would shut down. But someone needs to call him on his past BS.
Technically speaking, as a former CADMUS agent/hostage he was at least at one point sanctioned by the government to kill.
In fact, they were the people who forced him to do so in the first place.
He never got training in de-escalation, it was a 2 year period of "kill or die" followed by a 3 year period of "Torture, murder, and steal or we'll kill you and your whole family" working for a shady government branch.
And then he was just back, I guess. Meaning he started his crusade of cleaning up the city with the same mindset he'd had for the past 5 years, which was the ONLY mindset he knew of to have in these scenarios.
In short...I'm honestly surprised Ollie isn't even more f$!~ed up than he is.
Maybe someone needs to call him out, but I'm doubtful on that. If only because this show has way too much f+&+ing melodrama as it is.
In what way does he need to be called out though? He's already LEARNED the error of his way. He does regret the methods that he used, and swore not to go back down that road...
This is a lot like constantly berating someone in AA or on a diet about all the horrible stuff they did BEFORE they tried to get help and be a better person...
The constant killing was something that bugged the heck out of me in season one, and I LOVE the new 'heroic' direction. I REALLY don't want to wallow in all of his past mistakes and just make the show an angst-fest.
This is a lot like constantly berating someone in AA or on a diet about all the horrible stuff they did BEFORE they tried to get help and be a better person...
The constant killing was something that bugged the heck out of me in season one, and I LOVE the new 'heroic' direction. I REALLY don't want to wallow in all of his past mistakes and just make the show an angst-fest.
Pigging out on junk food before deciding to diet is not remotely similar to committing multiple murders without consequence and then deciding, "okay, that's enough."
I appreciate that he's decided to be a better person, but there's no legal statute of limitations on murder, why do you feel there should be a moral one? No matter how heroic he is now, the people he killed then are no less dead, and no less deprived of their right to due process.
Because we need the character for the show, he can't go to jail. I get that.
Because constant wallowing in self-pity is a waste of the viewer's time, I get that Ollie mostly needs to see himself as a different person and just move on.
I would just like to see some acknowledgement from some character that unlawful death remains unlawful death no matter how sorry you are about it later. Yet everyone on the show treats it like "hey, the past is the past, forget it."
This is a lot like constantly berating someone in AA or on a diet about all the horrible stuff they did BEFORE they tried to get help and be a better person...
The constant killing was something that bugged the heck out of me in season one, and I LOVE the new 'heroic' direction. I REALLY don't want to wallow in all of his past mistakes and just make the show an angst-fest.
Pigging out on junk food before deciding to diet is not remotely similar to committing multiple murders without consequence and then deciding, "okay, that's enough."
I appreciate that he's decided to be a better person, but there's no legal statute of limitations on murder, why do you feel there should be a moral one? No matter how heroic he is now, the people he killed then are no less dead, and no less deprived of their right to due process.
Because we need the character for the show, he can't go to jail. I get that.
Because constant wallowing in self-pity is a waste of the viewer's time, I get that Ollie mostly needs to see himself as a different person and just move on.
I would just like to see some acknowledgement from some character that unlawful death remains unlawful death no matter how sorry you are about it later. Yet everyone on the show treats it like "hey, the past is the past, forget it."
Well, as much as I hate the justification 'They were all BAD guys...' That seems to be where their mind is at and most were involved in that undertaking thing that killed a LOT of innocents. So really I wouldn't hold my breath for any guilt over killing them.
What would be the BEST thing they could do, would be to introduce some new opponent who is basically good, but after arrow BECAUSE he killed his father or something.
Something that says 'Yeah, they were all bad... but my actions had ramifications that I can't take back..."
Atom had potential there. He seems to be a 'good guys do good things' kind of guy. He could have been the superman to Ollie's Batman... but that ship seems to have passed :-/
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So anyway, Lazarus pits.
Marginally more successful than the Red Wedding, am I right?
That was... disturbing. I loved it but at the same time I kept yelling at the TV "stop not telling each other things!!!"
I have a hard time figuring out how the League is any sort of threat when Laurel ("I take boxing lessons 2 times a week. I'm a superhero!") And f&%$ing FELICITY of all people can take one or several of them down.
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I've always hated conservation of ninjutsu (which was here in spades, even to the point that Laurel dropped them like flies, then had trouble with the last one left).
If something is a threat alone, it is moreso in a group. If they aren't threatening, don't imply they are anything more than mooks. Each assassin is, nominally, roughly as skilled as Oliver at the start of the series. Which means Laurel should struggle, and possibly Diggle too (though they do a good job of showing his victories are largely gun fu. He needs a wrist mounted gun like Deadshot.).
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Clearly, the assassins in Nanda Parbat must be the rookies in training, as all the really competent ones are out on assignment (such as the ones they've fought in Starling City several times).
The lesson to be learned: Always leave some of your best at home so you don't have to defend your base with second-stringers in case a small group of moderate to highly trained invaders attacks.
Actually conservation of ninjutsu kinda makes sense. When you're attacking en masse, you have to be careful of your allies as well. So you're more easily distracted.
This gets less and less true as you train to fight in a group.
Which, if they don't, makes Ra's kind of a moron considering he has his assassins zerg rush like it's going out of style.
The League of Assassins is about as threatening as a mob of Putties in group combat. That's sad.
I don't object to Oliver, Nyssa, Merlyn, or even Thea and Roy (to a lesser extent) getting the better of league mooks. They are all pretty badass at this point, and have training with the same root. I might not even object to Laurel getting the better of a couple right now, after training with Nyssa, if they were consistent about it.
Which is really where the problems start and end for me. You can have the league guys as mid level enemies that would stomp a random guy off the street but still lose to the higher level heroes, but you don't get to show Laurel getting her ass kicked by a random mugger literally the episode before, then cut to her taking out several members of the league in the very next episode.
It undermines the world building and the very idea that the league is dangerous.
Beyond that, some spoiler stuff for the episode
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'm quite curious how the next episodes of Arrow and Flash will work chronologically.
Obviously, it's not really Ollie. It's Roy!
More seriously, they've already shown that the timelines are slightly askew in the other cross-over episodes.
I don't object to Oliver, Nyssa, Merlyn, or even Thea and Roy (to a lesser extent) getting the better of league mooks. They are all pretty badass at this point, and have training with the same root. I might not even object to Laurel getting the better of a couple right now, after training with Nyssa, if they were consistent about it.
Which is really where the problems start and end for me. You can have the league guys as mid level enemies that would stomp a random guy off the street but still lose to the higher level heroes, but you don't get to show Laurel getting her ass kicked by a random mugger literally the episode before, then cut to her taking out several members of the league in the very next episode.
It undermines the world building and the very idea that the league is dangerous.
I suspect that there is more to being an assassin then beating the crap out of people in melee. Really there hasn't been a lot of indication that is what these mooks are good at anyway. True assassins shine when their target simply dies from poison or stabbed in the shadows, or killed in their sleep, maybe even sniped from a rooftop if they want a 'message' sent.
Mob combat really SHOULDN'T be their thing...
In weird Arrow news, anybody going to watch Stephen Amell (as Green Arrow...as himself...or something) wrestle some guy in the WWE for shiggles?
Thank you CW
Looking forward to it...
Oh Hells yes! Now if hulu or Prime would pick up the series. (or lesser TNT). I assume Netflix wouldn't, because of their Marvel/Disney contracts.Thank you CW
Netflix has Arrow
In weird Arrow news, anybody going to watch Stephen Amell (as Green Arrow...as himself...or something) wrestle some guy in the WWE for shiggles?No interest. Apparently Stephen Amell is a huge wrestling fan and is incredibly stoked about it, so good for him being able to live his dreams. I might watch it on YouTube or something after the fact if people find it entertaining, but I pretty much lost interest in wrestling when I was 12.
Well, yeah, I wouldn't watch it on tv either since I'd have to watch everything else too.
But it sounds interesting at least. I watched the bit where he "made the match" and it was s delightfully cheesy. Might be worth watching to see him ham it up some more.
As a fan of both I am stoked. The only thing is missing is a comeback from Hurricane Helms. Though Stardust as a foil is delightfully appropriate.
DC seems to have its fingers in more networks than Marvel. I am not sure they have much to gain by going...say Amazon, what with 3 shows on the CW, 1 show on Fox, and 1 show on CBS (and last year they had one show on NBC as well)
DC has the advantage of being a subsidiary of Time-Warner.
Marvel is pretty much limited to showing their shows on ABC only as far as networks go.
DC has the advantage of being a subsidiary of Time-Warner.
Marvel is pretty much limited to showing their shows on ABC only as far as networks go.
I'm not sure that is a disadvantage for Marvel. Everyone knows that if they want to see a Marvel show, it will be advertised on ABC. DC can't cross promote its shows, so people who don't actively look for what is new wont find out about Supergirl from watching Arrow.
edit: I wouldn't be surprized if that was a contributing factor for the death of Constantine
DC has the advantage of being a subsidiary of Time-Warner.
Marvel is pretty much limited to showing their shows on ABC only as far as networks go.
I'm not sure that is a disadvantage for Marvel. Everyone knows that if they want to see a Marvel show, it will be advertised on ABC. DC can't cross promote its shows, so people who don't actively look for what is new wont find out about Supergirl from watching Arrow.
edit: I wouldn't be surprized if that was a contributing factor for the death of Constantine
Actually they did just recently announce that CBS and CW will be advertising each others DC shows during commercial breaks, although probably only when the DC show is playing
Bah ninjad
But the most recent post before yours was over 6 hours ago