Arrow


Television

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Peter Stewart wrote:


Yeah, I don't think so. Not a chance. Sara's reaction was too weird and familiar for it to be a random stranger, plus there's the bit Felicity mentioned about how the arrows hit her. Finally, I don't think they'd kill off a character as important as Sara with a relatively minor and incompetent villain.

Not if there's a history between the two we don't know about. Like I said, I have zero evidence to back it up, just a theory.


The Cupid theory quickly falls apart when you consider the fact that she uses very special arrows (heart shaped tips). Why would she deviate from her MO in that particular instance?


I didn't notice her arrows were heart tipped. My premise was weak to begin with. So far, the lead suspect is Ras, whom it most likely is.


Fallen_Mage wrote:
I didn't notice her arrows were heart tipped. My premise was weak to begin with. So far, the lead suspect is Ras, whom it most likely is.

Do you think Ra's himself, or a League-trained flunky?


Most likely one of his 'Most Trusted Lieutenants'.

Sovereign Court

Holy cow are obsessive crazy people creepy...


Didn't really like that episode... except for the very end.


I didn't even catch his name was Ray Palmer until this episode. I am teh dumbz.


Hama wrote:
Holy cow are obsessive crazy people creepy...

I just got a kick of how she's an archery Harley Quinn... and I still like her better than Laurel. The fact that they are pushing Laurel to be the new Black Canary hurts my soul.


As far as the show is concerned, Sara wasn't technically Black Canary, she was just "Canary" - her honorific title or whatever granted by the League of Assassins. Similarly, Malcom Merlyn's League of Assassins handle is "Magician".

Having her sister's death spur Laurel into becoming Black Canary is an interesting angle I didn't expect the show to take. I just wish I liked this show's version of her enough to be invested in it.

As it is, right now with the show I'm finding that I enjoy Ollie and Roy's developing mentor/student relationship and the formation of Arsenal the most. I thought the, "You OK? Not Really. You? Not Really," exchange they had at the end of this last episode was particularly good.

Sovereign Court

Arsenal?


Roy's had a number of hero names over the years in the comic-verse, but one of them (instead of Speedy or Red Arrow) has been 'Arsenal'.


Dal Selpher wrote:

As far as the show is concerned, Sara wasn't technically Black Canary, she was just "Canary" - her honorific title or whatever granted by the League of Assassins. Similarly, Malcom Merlyn's League of Assassins handle is "Magician".

Having her sister's death spur Laurel into becoming Black Canary is an interesting angle I didn't expect the show to take. I just wish I liked this show's version of her enough to be invested in it.

I just wish this show wasn't afraid of super powers. It seems that in the creators' minds Arrow is for the "normal" heroes and Flash is for the "super" heroes.

Black Canary without the super scream is disappointing.


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Dal Selpher wrote:
Roy's had a number of hero names over the years in the comic-verse, but one of them (instead of Speedy or Red Arrow) has been 'Arsenal'.

I'm not super up on Roy in the comics, but my understanding of the Arsenal name (as opposed to the others) was he took it up after he expanded his weaponry beyond bows and trick arrows. It seems kind of out of place here.

I figured we'd have Red Arrow and Green Arrow first (as people start coming up with ways to distinguish between the two archers in similar get ups except for the color scheme.)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

GregH wrote:
Dal Selpher wrote:

As far as the show is concerned, Sara wasn't technically Black Canary, she was just "Canary" - her honorific title or whatever granted by the League of Assassins. Similarly, Malcom Merlyn's League of Assassins handle is "Magician".

Having her sister's death spur Laurel into becoming Black Canary is an interesting angle I didn't expect the show to take. I just wish I liked this show's version of her enough to be invested in it.

I just wish this show wasn't afraid of super powers. It seems that in the creators' minds Arrow is for the "normal" heroes and Flash is for the "super" heroes.

Black Canary without the super scream is disappointing.

Well, with the Flash in the same universe, and cross over events happening (they've announced that they're planning a second one for the later half of the season already), Arrow might start to have more super powers pop up. Who knows, they could have Black Canary develop a power rather than technological scream, we still haven't seen her develop into her super-hero persona yet.

Sovereign Court

ATOM is there for a reason.


Which is?

Sovereign Court

To deal with superpowered criminals?


Was Green Arrow (in the comics) not capable of handling superpowered criminals? Or was it always "gadget-on-gadget" as it were? (Never read much DC outside of Batman, Superman and a bit of Teen Titans.)


GregH wrote:
Was Green Arrow (in the comics) not capable of handling superpowered criminals? Or was it always "gadget-on-gadget" as it were? (Never read much DC outside of Batman, Superman and a bit of Teen Titans.)

Pretty sure Green Arrow has taken on the same types of foes that challenge Superman with his trick arrow stuff.


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More accurately, like Batman he has the most amazing superpower of all: Plot contrivance.


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Rynjin wrote:
More accurately, like literally every literary hero ever he has the most amazing superpower of all: Plot contrivance.

Fixed that for you. A pointless observation though.

Sovereign Court

WHAT THE HELL

Damn, who can now wait for the next episode.


I'm slowly losing interest in this series after all of the rediculousness that goes on storywise. The mid-season was not up to par at all, especially that ending. I really like the show, and I really want it to be big, but it keeps just putting itself in mediocrity with buildup and letdown. I'm gonna watch next season and hopefully they actually start killing people off that need to go.


Who, exactly, do you think "needs to go"?

The only character I can think of the show wouldn't be too much worse off without is Laurel (who they can't really get rid of after building up her storyline beginning) and Roy (who while he doesn't add much...doesn't detract from anything either).

I think about the best you're going to get is Roy maybe moves onto a new show if they decide to spin-off into a show with him and Nightwing and other such characters.

Sovereign Court

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The mid season was amazing. Maybe it's just not the show for you.


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I actually thought it was pretty weak too, as far as a finale goes. Compare to the Flash finale, which was very well put together, answered a few questions, raised more, had good action, etc.

The Arrow mid-season was more disjointed, kinda oddly paced. This would have been a great episode to drop the flashbacks entirely, and the flashes of him climbing the mountain seemed distracting and out of place.

If they'd dropped the flashbacks for an episode (since they didn't really tie into anything except that whatsisnuts shows up), and put the whole climbing scene in one continuous chunk, sort of as a moment of reflection before the big fight, to lend it a sort of gravitas, it would have been stellar.

As-is, it was kinda meh.

Not to mention them still trying to push the ABSOLUTELY HORRENDOUS idea of Olicity.

DON'T.

STAAAAAHP.

NOOOOOOOOOO.


Oh by the way:

Rynjin wrote:
Spoiler:
Who wants to bet it was Thea that shot Canary?
Hama wrote:
Spoiler:
Wasn't Thea

Neener neener.

Sovereign Court

:D

That took some searching.

You were right. I was wrong. :D


Rynjin wrote:

Who, exactly, do you think "needs to go"?

The only character I can think of the show wouldn't be too much worse off without is Laurel (who they can't really get rid of after building up her storyline beginning) and Roy (who while he doesn't add much...doesn't detract from anything either).

I think about the best you're going to get is Roy maybe moves onto a new show if they decide to spin-off into a show with him and Nightwing and other such characters.

I guess i'm just getting tired, in general, of this buildup to the penultimate battle, and it's to the point that the hero loses all of them, all the time. I had hoped that Oliver would defeat Ra'as, but there would be a way that a deal would be brokered with the League, but going in I pretty much knew that Oliver would lose. Because all of the shows lately have the same setup: hero loses. i guess that's where the frustration lies, that every show feels the need to go away from the hero winning in the finale, to "buck the trend" they think. Well it seems now "bucking the trend" would be to have the hero actually kill the bad guy and have to live with the consequences.

I enjoy the show, and I guess I'm in the minority that wants to see Oliver and Felicity get together (could just be that I have a crush on Felicity :) ). But I guess I was just disappointed about that and, like Rynjin pointed out, it seemed a bit all over the place and disjointed. I never followed the comics, so i'm just watching and enjoying the show as-is, so I don't know the actual lore behind it.


I know a bit of the lore, and IMO Ollie being able to easily beat Ra's and previously Slade on his first attempt would be selling the characters way short, especially since Slade was super powered.

Both have a ton of experience on Ollie, Ra's especially (on the order of CENTURIES).

I'm a bit biased in Slade's case (Deathstroke is one of my all time favorite DC characters).

Ollie's still new on the scene. If he was able to take out every big bad m*%%$#**!!*# on the planet in hand to hand combat the character would have nowhere to improve, skills-wise.

Plus you're also forgetting this is NOT the finale. It's the MID-SEASON finale. The shows both come back in January to finish out this season.

This is not a loss in the final act, this is a loss in the second act, basically.


Rynjin wrote:

I know a bit of the lore, and IMO Ollie being able to easily beat Ra's and previously Slade on his first attempt would be selling the characters way short, especially since Slade was super powered.

Both have a ton of experience on Ollie, Ra's especially (on the order of CENTURIES).

I'm a bit biased in Slade's case (Deathstroke is one of my all time favorite DC characters).

Ollie's still new on the scene. If he was able to take out every big bad m*+&~*%*&!%# on the planet in hand to hand combat the character would have nowhere to improve, skills-wise.

Plus you're also forgetting this is NOT the finale. It's the MID-SEASON finale. The shows both come back in January to finish out this season.

This is not a loss in the final act, this is a loss in the second act, basically.

Fair enough, sir. Your knowlegde on the lore is definitely greater than mine. This show was my first intro to mirakuru(sp?) and other than Batman, I'd never heard of the League.

Valid points on the Ollie vs Ra's and Slade battling as well, I guess I was just expecting more, maybe, as much as they show Ollie training?

I guess what is frustrating is when they just keep bringing people back from the dead. I don't know if that's part of the series lore, but just when you think someone's been offed, they're back. I'm definitely watching the next half, as I like the character, probably because I've always had an affinity for bows.

Sovereign Court

Nobody dies. Ever.


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lorenlord wrote:


Fair enough, sir. Your knowlegde on the lore is definitely greater than mine. This show was my first intro to mirakuru(sp?) and other than Batman, I'd never heard of the League.

Mirakuru is something they made up for the show. Though it's almost identical to the inspired naming of the "super soldier serum" Deathstroke has in other media.

And bringing up Batman in reference to the League and Ra's is actually a very good reference point. To my knowledge, Batman is one of the top 3 or 5 martial artists in the DC universe.

Ra's is evenly matched with him, at worst, or superior at best.

Ollie, meanwhile, is in his early days as of yet, and the sword is not exactly his weapon of choice. He honestly probably would have done better going after Ra's barehanded.

lorenlord wrote:
Valid points on the Ollie vs Ra's and Slade battling as well, I guess I was just expecting more, maybe, as much as they show Ollie training?

Well, again, Ollie trains three things, for the most part:

1.) General strength training (his use of the salmon ladder being the most common shown).

2.) Basic hand to hand combat.

3.) And by far the most common, his archery skill.

Ollie can hold his own in a had to hand fight, but his specialty is far and away ranged combat, whether it be with a bow or with a gun as he showed in one episode this season.

He is definitely one of the best archers on the planet, but in close quarters? Not so much.

Ra's is a CQC specialist. Bad match-up. Just like in Pathfinder, really. Get close and start hitting the archer in the face and he's gonna have a rough time. Sure, he might have a back-up melee weapon, but he sure ain't nearly as good with it.

Essentially, Ollie's got full BaB and Weapon Focus/Specialization, and Weapon Training in the bow.

All he's got going for him in CQC is full BaB and good enough stat rolls to have a high Str AND Dex. =)

lorenlord wrote:
I guess what is frustrating is when they just keep bringing people back from the dead. I don't know if that's part of the series lore, but just when you think someone's been offed, they're back. I'm definitely watching the next half, as I like the character, probably because I've always had an affinity for bows.

That's comic books for you, but I can understand why it can be frustrating. Deaths hardly have any impact in them for the most part, at least when it comes to popular characters.

Though at least in this case, if Ollie actually DOES die him being brought back probably won't be an ass-pull, since while the Lazarus Pits (which are the reason Ra's is still alive after 600 odd years) haven't been explicitly mentioned, they've certainly been hinted at ("It's been 67 years since someone challenged me" from someone who look to be about 40, and a pretty well preserved 40).


Thanks for the explanation, things are a bit clearer now that a little of the lore as far as that episode and Martial arts skill comparison have been explained. Thank you. I was always a big Marvel Comics geek, but always liked Batman cause of the gadgets and (especially the Dark Knight) because he wasn't a "goodie-goodie", and I guess that's what I like about Arrow, beside the bow as noted before. Is his reluctance to kill from the comic, or is that for the show as well? Also, I feel like these flashbacks are a little more muddled than the ones from when he was on the island, might just be me though.


Green Arrow from the comics (I believe. I'm assuming his portrayal is the same as in the cartoons) is basically "Liberal hippy Batman".

So he's definitely got the "No killing" clause in spades. Just like most of the other classic DC characters, since it was a standard back in the day.

Sovereign Court

The only thing that is bothering me is that we seriously lack the traditional Green Arrow wisecracks.


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I thought the episode's biggest problem wasn't the flashbacks, it was the Ray stuff. It felt like it was breaking up an otherwise pretty good storyline. That said, I understand why. Episode 10 is likely to pick up with a time skip, and this gives an opportunity to have Ray in action later without it being a surprise to anyone.

I thought they did a great job with Ra's. I'd been worried about how he would be handled, and was even faintly worried that they might have Oliver beat him. Painting him as Oliver's vast superior was absolutely right, and his actions leading up to Oliver's death were also fantastic. Overall very happy with how he was managed. It'll be interesting to see what brings him back to Starling later on, since he's supposed to remain a villain. Maybe some kind of back-alley deal with Merlyn that set this entire thing in motion? Not sure, but it seems too good to be true that Sara (who Ra's didn't like) and Oliver (who Merlyn wants out of the picture) both got killed off as part of the same deal.

Oliver will come back (probably in episode 14 of this season [60 overall], titled "The Return"). The next four our five episodes will deal with everyone else having to come to terms with Starling no longer having the Arrow to protect it. It'll give Laurel a chance to step into the Black Cannery pants, Ray a chance to get developed into Atom, Roy a chance to step out of Oliver's shadow, Thea an opportunity to learn the truth and turn from her father, ect. It'll probably also cause the Felicity / Ray romance to become a thing, rendering her unavailable when Oliver returns (which ties in with his eventual relationship with Laurel). Inter cut will probably be the rejuvenation of Oliver, probably at the hands of Maseo (who's now presence with Ra's is just too coincidental). Whether he's stuck in a pit (which might heal his scars and save them some makeup) or simply recovers over time I couldn't tell you.


Was it my imagination, or did Ra's grab Ollie's blade with his bare hand right before the final stroke that won him the duel?


DM Barcas wrote:
Was it my imagination, or did Ra's grab Ollie's blade with his bare hand right before the final stroke that won him the duel?

Not your imagination.


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Rynjin wrote:
Green Arrow from the comics (I believe. I'm assuming his portrayal is the same as in the cartoons) is basically "Liberal hippy Batman".

At times this has been true in the comics, usually it was done in a very ham-fisted way that didn't do the character (or the causes) any favors. Basically, they took the Robin Hood angle and amped it to 11. Which made him a bit of a hypocrite being a billionaire. Unfortunately, many writers were fond of making him a hypocrite in most facets of his personal interactions as well.

Much of this was (thankfully) jettisoned with the New 52 reboot. Unfortunately, it took a bit for rebooted Green Arrow to find his New 52 footing but the recent run by Lemire has quickly become a fan-favorite take on the character. The current writing team, I believe, are actually from the Arrow show and even before that, the show had begun to positively impact the comics with the introduction of characters like Diggle.

The take on Green Arrow and his progression/evolution from vigilante to hero in the show has been far superior to many (not all) portrayals in the comics and if the show can continue to not only take content from the comics and reimagine it, but then also positively influence the comics then I'll be a happy viewer & a happy reader for years to come.

Silver Crusade

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They also drew on Mike Grell's The Longbow Hunters miniseries... heavily, I might add. The grimmer attitude, the uniform, in addition to certain characters (Shado, Fyers, and the Slasher) all come from that phase of Green Arrow's development.


Rynjin wrote:

. . .

The Arrow mid-season was more disjointed, kinda oddly paced. This would have been a great episode to drop the flashbacks entirely, and the flashes of him climbing the mountain seemed distracting and out of place.

If they'd dropped the flashbacks for an episode (since they didn't really tie into anything except that whatsisnuts shows up), and put the whole climbing scene in one continuous chunk, sort of as a moment of reflection before the big fight, to lend it a sort of gravitas, it would have been stellar. . .

I thought it was a somewhat traditional literary effect.

In a man vs. nature moment (climbing the mountain) he is examining himself (man vs. self), trying to keep only the things that matter and letting the rest fall away. For him, the bonds that he has been able to maintain are the motivation to keep going, the motivation to fight. It is also (sort of) his life flashing before his eyes.

If martial arts movies are any indication, use of the external natural event to force internal contemplation is very par for the course. It's the process of self whittling until weaknesses are exorcised.

I can see where what you suggest could work, but I also see what they did, and I kind of think I get why they did it that way. I didn't really see a problem with pacing, but maybe I liked it more than I realized and it was just easier for me to stay with it.

I also think its both a psychological and physical tool against an enemy (in Ra's case) because he forces one to 'ascend' to Ra's level (mental attack) and one has been physically stressed from the climb (physical attack). You can't tell me Ra's @$$ climbed up there. It's tactical and calculated. It's also unnecessary as all get out at this point because he has centuries of fight experience.

I also wonder what Merlyn's endgame is. A grudging respect for Arrow is what has kept the League out of Starling, which is what gave him some temporary breathing room. I don't think it was smart for Merlyn to risk his daughter's life just to manipulate Arrow. I don't think he really wanted Arrow dead, but I also don't entertain any notions that Merlyn thought that Arrow could beat the Demon's Head. I think this is only a part of Merlyn's attempt to pull one over on the League some how, but I just don't know what.

Rynjin wrote:

. . .

Not to mention them still trying to push the ABSOLUTELY HORRENDOUS idea of Olicity. . . .

Ok. I'll bite. Why is that horrible?

She's really funny and attractive. She also is helpful without purposefully throwing herself in harms way like some of the other love interests so far. I figure a hero would value a partner who helps out and is smart enough to get the hell away from danger on their own rather than run towards it. She knows her limits.

Unlike some ridiculous attempt to transform a whiny idiot into a cool hero (the new canary plan). *shudders* Lauren is not a hero. She's not competent. I will never buy her as canary. That is enough cognitive dissonance for me to disconnect from the fun I've been having with the show.

I still love the crap out of The Flash, though.


I get why the ascension of the cliff is good, I just didn't like HOW they did it.

As for why Olicity is horrible, I think you misunderstand what I mean. I like Felicity. I don't like Felicity and Ollie together.They just...don't fit.

First and foremost, they have ZERO chemistry on-screen. Her and Barry, I could kinda buy. Her and Ray have this oil and water thing going on that's fun to watch.

Her and Ollie seems dead and lifeless. And wangsty.

Second, Ollie's still pretty immature when it comes to relationships. He's quite obviously still not into commitment, and he's pretty selfish to boot. Look at his last two love interests, Laurel, who despite her job is still basically just a ditzy college bimbo, and Sara the "dangerous", "mysterious" girl who also happen to be his old sweetheart.

They just don't mix. If Ray and Felicity are oil and water, her and Ollie are an acid and a base of equa and opposite pHs. They cancel out anything interesting about each other and just leave a bland gray mess in the tray.


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Rynjin wrote:

First and foremost, they have ZERO chemistry on-screen. Her and Barry, I could kinda buy. Her and Ray have this oil and water thing going on that's fun to watch.

Her and Ollie seems dead and lifeless. And wangsty.

Second, Ollie's still pretty immature when it comes to relationships. He's quite obviously still not into commitment, and he's pretty selfish to boot. Look at his last two love interests, Laurel, who despite her job is still basically just a ditzy college bimbo, and Sara the "dangerous", "mysterious" girl who also happen to be his old sweetheart.

I was going to respond with some detailed counter-arguments here, but it doesn't seen worth it to say more than: I disagree strongly with pretty much everything you say here. I'm not even particularly a fan of Laurel, and I still think your description of her is a major disservice, and I think Ollie and Felicity have plenty of chemistry on-screen.

Sovereign Court

Felicity has chemistry with anything. Ollie on the other hand...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Peter Stewart wrote:


Oliver will come back (probably in episode 14 of this season [60 overall], titled "The Return").

I read somewhere recently (I think on Stephen Amell's FB page) that "The Return" was not referring to Oliver's return. I'm sure he'll be returning, but it sounds like it might be longer than that.


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I can't imagine that they will go more than 1 episode without their star. In a comic, maybe, but not in a CW show.


Who wants to put money in the pot that the mid-season takes place 1-2 years later and we find out all about how he came back to life next season in a bunch of flashbacks? =)


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Rynjin wrote:
Who wants to put money in the pot that the mid-season takes place 1-2 years later and we find out all about how he came back to life next season in a bunch of flashbacks? =)

Not taking that bet.

edit: but now that I think about it, it is probably a good one because they probably want to keep Flash and Arrow at roughly the same time, and they wont do a 2 year gap in Flash right now.

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