Um, not bad. Though my first thought was isn't DC the one with the 'heroes don't kill' baseline?
And is 'Speedy' in this one going to be his sister? She already has the 'drugie' bit down.
I had wondered about the ex-girlfriend until they said her name at the end and I went 'Oh, Black Canary'. And then I saw the preview. That wig looks stupid.
My daughter commented that the guy playing Oliver didn't seem to emote at all. I pointed out that, in this case, with him spending 5 years alone on an island, it almost made sense he'd forgotten how to react.
Still, it was fun and cool while it was on.
Um, not bad. Though my first thought was isn't DC the one with the 'heroes don't kill' baseline?
Everybody had that, BitD. Does anyone still have it now?
And is 'Speedy' in this one going to be his sister? She already has the 'drugie' bit down.
Looks that way.
I had wondered about the ex-girlfriend until they said her name at the end and I went 'Oh, Black Canary'. And then I saw the preview. That wig looks stupid.
Yep, Dinah Lance. And the best friend's name is apparently Merlyn, which was the name of one of Green Arrow's foes in the comic.
My daughter commented that the guy playing Oliver didn't seem to emote at all. I pointed out that, in this case, with him spending 5 years alone on an island, it almost made sense he'd forgotten how to react.
Still, it was fun and cool while it was on.
Yeah, it was better than I expected.
It strikes me more as Longbow Hunters, than your traditional Green Arrow.
Yeah, although no Asian dragon archer girl (what was her name again?) yet.
OTOH, while the arrows used were mainly pointy arrows and were shot into people, there were a couple of "trick arrows" in the episode.
And speaking of Longbow Hunters, there was a character named "Grell" in the TV ep. ;)
Very cool.
For me, it hit the right marks. Good blend of "now" and "origin". Seems it will be taking the flashback route to reveal the origin over time which I greatly prefer to a rushed "got to get this out of the way" style origin that you often see in movies.
Like Smallville's approach to Superman, it appears that it will diverge from Green Arrow canon where it wants to while providing nods to the lore. Speedy is now a nickname for his sister. Will she eventually go the route of sidekick? Merlyn is the name of Ollie's best friend. Will he evolve into the Green Arrow nemesis of the same name?
The Deathstroke mask on the beach was very, very cool. It was almost a visceral reaction for me, all from seeing a freakin' cloth mask...
Honestly, while I've always liked Green Arrow, he never made it into my top-tier of heroes. I'm totally fine with them not hewing directly to the pre-New52 canon.
But then, I really enjoy the New52 version of Green Arrow. A more accessible Olliver without the goofy goatee & in-your-face liberalism.
The thing I'm wondering about the most, however, is how much the "super" aspect will be in the show. Will we ever see a Black Canary with Canary Cry or will we keep the more "realistic" street-level tone...
On my watch list.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I really enjoyed it too. I don't know enough about Green Arrow to know where they diverge from the comics, which makes any such changes a non-issue to me, unlike for characters that are better known. As long as it's good, I'll keep watching (plus John Barrowman starts his recurring role in episode 5!)
I didn't recognize the mask at first. I should have. We played Champions with a friend who based his character of Deathstroke. I never understood the fascination with an assassin who couldn't even kill a few teens - with help.
I am really enjoying this show, much more than I ever expected. They need to work on the balance between flashback and current day (I'm tiring of the coming to be overused trope where you have a present day storyline but then you flash back over time to fill in the gaps... I'd rather just know the history and then move into the present) and but it's very interesting and entertaining stuff all around.
Only major disappointment so far was... (spoiler for most recent episode)
That he killed Deadshot. Floyd Lawton is awesome and deserves better than to be an easily disposed of villain of the week. He could have become a very cool recurring character. Unless somehow Deadshot got his mask on someone else, but that seems unlikely.
I thought this week's episode was the weakest so far, which is especially disappointing, considering it had Deadshot in it.
I'm actually kind of neutral on the show, but my girlfriend is really enjoying it. The only characters I really like so far are Digg and Detective Dresden, err Lance.
Given in the comics, the original Dinah Lance's husband and Dinah Laurel Lance's father Detective Lance came into existence decades ago, I think he beats who ever the heck Dresden is for being first by a long shot. Do correct me if I am wrong, however.
Regarding the spoiler:
Spoiler:
I'm hoping that Deadshot didn't die, but his eyepiece saved him somehow and he crawled away while Ollie was dragging Digg back to his lair to get him the antidote.I hope so. He's too good a character to waste, and they set him up too well to just kill him off.
That said, I found the poisoned bullets rather ridiculous for someone who is said to "never miss". I could almost buy the poisoned sniper rounds as a calling card, but why he would poison a whole magazine of bullets in his holdout weapon strikes me as ridiculous.I did not have a problem with it. It is amazing sometimes what wounds people can survive, especially with the miracle of modern medicine--there are people who are living who have been directly shot in the head. A rare poison is unexpected and helps guarantee that even a graze can become a kill shot, let alone a well-placed blow. After all, he has never missed, but not all of his shots were immediately fatal. If he's a professional assassin, he's probably paranoid and thorough enough to have the poison as a backup plan just in case of bad luck or miracles. Plus since it's rare it makes a nice calling card.
Plus, dude got shot in the chest by a machine gun. Not sure Ollie with some pliers and thread in a dirty warehouse is the best place for Digg to get medical treatment for multiple chest wounds.First, Ollie had the antidote to the poison.
Second, remember one of Ollie's main priorities is, for now, to keep his identity secret. If he called for emergency services, either he'd have to come up with a heck of a cover story as to why he was in the middle of a shootout between Deadshot and Digg, and/or Digg himself might reveal his secret, if he had figured it out (I don't remember the sequence of events exactly), before Ollie could talk to him about his goals.
And Ollie at least feels he has enough field medicine skills to save him, even if he's using his survival techniques, not state of the art equipment.
I also don't remember Digg being wounded that badly--I don't remember how many shots hit him (or if he wore an undercover kevlar shirt to absorb some of the shots, bearing in mind TV "realism" as far as how that kind of thing works). I think Ollie was more concerned about healing him from the poison than the gunshot wounds themselves, and what I recall from him treating his wounds is there weren't that many wounds to patch up.
The actor who plays Detective Lance is the same one who portrayed Harry Dresden in the short lived Syfy series "The Dresden Files"
Ah. I've never seen it so I didn't understand. Thanks.
Paul Blackthorne was one of the few bright spots in the Dresden Files TV series. (Terrance Mann's Bob being the other.) Sorry if the joke came across as attacking his character on Arrow. Obviously wasn't the intention.
Side note, the actual Dresden Files books are a lot of fun. They're about a wizard working as a private detective in Chicago. Lots of snark and geek references.
I've heard good things about the books.
I understand Ollie trying to keep his ID secret. Though why he didn't keep the antidote on him once he knew what he was dealing with seems a little odd.
That's a fair point. Maybe there was... special... dark creepy room... chemical requirements.... TV reasons. ;p
He still wanted to keep Digg out of the hands of the EMTs to protect his identity anyway.
Digg took enough of a hit to stagger him instantly (remember Ollie didn't start to feel the poison's effect until after he'd already got back to his base and treated his wound) and come up with a hand covered in blood when he touched his chest back at the Arrow Cave.
Well, I think anyone'd be staggered by gunshot wound but, *shrug* IDK. Ollie clearly has his own sometimes skewed priorities, and obviously felt he was capable of treating Digg's injuries himself, regardless of how severe they were.
Though I do wonder about how the whole poisoned bullet thing would work, anyway. Looking around, it seems the pressure/heat in the gun would destroy any poison the bullet was coated in. A hollow-point filled with poison and capped appears to be the way to go, but that wouldn't explain Ollie getting poisoned by the grazed arm.
Quickly looking up how such a thing would work on the Internet, which therefore makes me an expert on such things, you would put the poison in a hollow tip, and cap it with something soft enough that would allow it to rupture upon impact (the shape of the bullet keeps it from rupturing . Theoretically, as long as the bullet hit him hard enough that the poison casing would release, he could have been poisoned even by a graze.
The one unbelievable part is that it should, according to my extensive googling, work better on smaller calibre bullets. Doing it with sniper rifle ammo seems unlikely.
I also don't know the nature of curare that might make it ideal for lacing a bullet with.
I liked this episode too. I wasn't expecting to see so many wrenches thrown into the works so soon but I will be really interested in seeing how they work with them in the next couple episodes.
Digg was able to get up and talk and fight (poorly) so I guess he wasn't hurt too bad. Said he took a shot to the shoulder, not the gut, so that could account for it. I am really liking the development of the relationship between Ollie and Digg--I think as the Chinese archer dude taught Ollie to kill and survive, I am seeing Digg as the mentor who slowly starts teaching Ollie to be human again.
Laurel of course is obviously playing a strong role in that too. I like that her Lois Lane fascination for Arrow lasted for only about 15 minutes (metaphorically speaking). And that she had the guts to stop him from unnecessarily killing the prisoner.
I keep wanting Laurel to be more badass, and have to remind myself she is not a superhero (yet). I do like that while she didn't fight much in this ep, she is obviously very alert and relatively calm in combat/ stress situations, which shows she has a lot of good potential.
As an aside, I am wondering if they are keeping, in some form, the comics continuity bit that Laurel's mother is Dinah Drake, the original Black Canary. In golden age comics, Dinah Drake was BC and was allied with Detective Lance, whom she eventually married; Dinah Laurel Lance was their daughter. I wonder if in Arrow, if Mom was still some kind of vigilante herself, if that is part of why Dad Lance is really insistent on Laurel sticking to the lawful side of justice and not getting enamored by vigilantism (maybe in Arrow continuity, Mom Lance's vigilantism got her in trouble--or at least at odds with Dad). And at least if her mom is Dinah Drake, it makes more sense why her daughter is going by her middle name. :)
The ending with Walter finding the boat was WHOAH. They have done really well with some of the ending twists. I was convinced Walter was as corrupt as the rest of them but he may actually be one of the few good guys (or just corrupt in a different way than I expected).
As another aside, I wonder if Felicity Smoak is going to perform sort of an Oracle role in Arrow. We have Dinah Laurel Lance, and it is publicized news that the character Helena Bertinelli will be showing up in episode 6. We'd need Babs Gordon for the 3 most iconic Birds of Prey, but I'm fairly certain Arrows creators are trying to avoid the Gothamverse (and, outside Big Belly Burger, the Metropiverse), and Babs has too much character history/baggage to try and fold into another person's show. Felicity (who is a lesser known software guru in the DCU) plays a very similar tech expert role here though, and I wonder if she's been chosen as an Oracle proxy. She's already doing the de-tech-tive work most excellently.
And oh god, who is John Barrowman supposed to be? Is Moira evil or is he manipulating her? Some speculate he might be Maxwell Lord.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well if they put her in a wheelchair she could litterally be Proxy (Wendy's id in the preboot Brian Q Miller Batgirl).
I think it would be savy to toss in some reference to The Man of Steel movie coming out. But DC has apparently decided doing the exact opposite of Marvel's Phase One is the way to go.
This show is aggravating.
The action sequences, notably for TV, are really excellent. And the story motivations and plot are also fantastic. The show sets the scene very well.
But there we go - that's just the beginning and the end. The entire middle of the show is nearly unwatchable. It is definitely - very clearly - a CW show. TEH ANGST! Holy cow is it bad. And repetitive. And dumb. That idiot of a sister has got to be one of the most annoying written-for characters in CW-land. She says the same stupid thing episode after episode after episode - and says it like it's supposed mean something.
B~&&+! The guy's essentially been dead (or in true, absolute misery) for 5 years! Your whining about him being a "hypocrite" and "judgmental" really is (or should be) falling on deaf ears, and makes you look really really dumb, you drunk, drugged-up idiot. Who cares what you think? (Especially when you really are worthy of judging.)
And the idea that almost-dead-guy really cares anymore (that anyone cares, really, because the viewer sure as heck doesn't) that his long-time ex has been seeing someone else is just... astonishing. What are the writers thinking?
Oh - and see Kalshane's post above. That kind of stuff isn't uncommon.
Suffer through the lame-ass drama to get to the good stuff. (Sort of like Smallville - another CW angst-fest - in the middle years.) And the good stuff really is good.
/rant (much of it courtesy of my wife, who I agree with)
I had the opposite reaction to this week's episode.
Sorry you didn't enjoy it.
Laurel's character was really inconsistent in this, and her dialogue incredibly clunky. Arrow shows up, scares the crap out of her, gets her on the case. "OMG, he's a guardian angel." Arrow saves her life and helps her free an innocent man, but loses control while saving her life. "OMG, he's totally evil!"
The dialogue was clunky, I agree. I still was okay with the arc of her opinion of Arrow. Maybe it was just me, but I felt like it made sense--he's frightening, but then he does make her realize an innocent man might die, which is a good thing. There's also a bit where she's justifying to herself why she is willing to work with him--he HAS to be good for her to feel okay about it.
He saves her life, but then he went wild. She saw his willingness to kill. I am totally okay with her freaking out about that. She might be more grateful for being saved, but she was also frightened by him and realizing she was blinding herself to part of him. Her final denouncement of him might have been OTT (again, clunky dialogue) but I think it's also as much as she kind of talked herself into trusting him, she is now talking herself out of it.
Also, I didn't see her cool under pressure during the prison riot.
I was referring more to Arrow's invasion of her home. She knew something was wrong, she stayed alert, she grabbed her weapon, she stayed watchful. She didn't get weepy or careless.
As for the prison riot, I DO really wish she had fought more--they can't seem to decide how good at fighting they want her to be--but she also kept close to her client and didn't flip out that badly considering there was suddenly a horde of convicted criminals crashing down on her. Remember she is NOT Black Canary, she is a young and largely untrained Dinah Laurel Lance.
I saw her playing stereotypical TV damsel in distress and completely forgetting how to fight when attacked, despite being able to clobber two professional bodyguards in the previous episode.
I don't think it was that bad but again I do agree she should have fought more.
I really don't grasp why Moira would embezzle $2.6 million dollars in order to dredge up the yacht she had sabotaged from the bottom of the ocean and then store the pieces in a warehouse.
I assume we will find out next week. Perhaps there was something of value on it. Perhaps she was keeping it to look for clues as to Robert or Ollie's whereabouts--a vain hope, but grieving parents do vain things (we know she knows it was sabotaged, but we don't know if she knew beforehand amongst other issues -- after all someone planned the sabotage, they didn't plan the storm the boat sailed into, which may have turned what was intended to be a delaying "accident" into a fatal tragedy). Perhaps she collects broken boats.
Ollie really should avoid stashing his costume directly in front of security cameras.
Given how cautious he is, I thought that seemed rather shoddy writing too.
That said, a video of him pulling said costume out of a garbage can is really flimsy evidence to arrest someone on.
This is true. It may even be a factor as to why Ollie eventually goes free, as I'm pretty sure this show is going to have more episodes beyond next week.
My prediction is Digg will go cause a ruckus in the Arrow gear to give Ollie an alibi.
That would be interesting to see.
I agree there's flaws in the storytelling -- as Arnywn notes, it is a fricking CW show, after all (for a CW show, it's freaking Shakespeare, even if it's a pulp novel by other standards). But I am enjoying this filmed pulp novel more than enough not to sweat what I saw are minor flaws in a show that's still finding its footing. It's all about setting the right level of expectations.
I agree with Arnwyn that Thea has been inexplicably annoying (some television writers do not know how to write organic teen girls) but I thought she was better in this episode than previously. I hope the trend continues.
Finally got to start catching up. We're really enjoying it here. We like the slight turn to the darker, grittier side for a DC show. We'll download the most recent episode here shortly and probably watch it tonight.
You know you can just watch it streaming on the CW webpage, right?
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Finally got to start catching up. We're really enjoying it here. We like the slight turn to the darker, grittier side for a DC show. We'll download the most recent episode here shortly and probably watch it tonight.You know you can just watch it streaming on the CW webpage, right?
Its easier for me just to have the season pass through Amazon
Its easier for me just to have the season pass through AmazonFinally got to start catching up. We're really enjoying it here. We like the slight turn to the darker, grittier side for a DC show. We'll download the most recent episode here shortly and probably watch it tonight.You know you can just watch it streaming on the CW webpage, right?
Okay. I was just wondering why you were downloading it, but I guess that makes sense for future viewing.
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Okay. I was just wondering why you were downloading it, but I guess that makes sense for future viewing.Its easier for me just to have the season pass through AmazonFinally got to start catching up. We're really enjoying it here. We like the slight turn to the darker, grittier side for a DC show. We'll download the most recent episode here shortly and probably watch it tonight.You know you can just watch it streaming on the CW webpage, right?
Also makes sense when you're Internet speed sucks that you can't really stream stuff at a decent quality. I mean who wants to watch something streaming below DVD quality on a 42" TV
Also liked tonight's episode. Without trying to spoil much of anything...
So he did it on purpose! Some of it seemed a little too pat but it still explained a lot.
And the reference to fishnets made me smile.
I am surprisingly liking Quentin Lance more and more. He is making for a good antagonist -- not a villain, obviously, but a good antagonist. His own levels of obsession mirrors Ollie's quite a lot, which is interesting and appropriate.
The flashbacks worked well into this one, a lot more was revealed as to what went on there.
Mom's activities are getting more and more interesting too.
I SO cannot wait till next ep! Royal Flush Gang AND my very favorite crossbow wielding vigilante! Woot!
That you are enjoying the show gives me reason to watch it, tmdq. Will attempt to catch an ep.
That you are enjoying the show gives me reason to watch it, tmdq. Will attempt to catch an ep.
Oh, sure, now I feel the pressure. ;)
I think all the eps are on the CW so you can see it from the start if you wish.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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One thing I'm curious about.
(We don't know for sure that this Deathstroke is/will be Slade. I was sad that Deadshot didn't really follow the Floyd Lawton I know and love from Secret Six.)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I think Teen Titans got a way with a bit because of the animation style (which I didn't like).
IF we see more of Deathstroke, I'd love Ron Perlman to cameo as Wintergreen. It would be interesting to introduce Rose as a peer Mia's age. Espeically if Deathstroke comes hunting...
One thing I'm curious about.
Deathstroke's catching of the arrow. Is that going to by typical hollywood martial arts or is it a hint that he has Slade Wilson's augmentations?
(We don't know for sure that this Deathstroke is/will be Slade. I was sad that Deadshot didn't really follow the Floyd Lawton I know and love from Secret Six.)
I think he is going to be Slade, although what augmentations they will go for is unknown, as the writers say they want to stick to no/low superpowers.
I was disappointed in Deadshot's appearance but I am kind of hoping somehow that he's not actually dead (the eyepiece kept him from dying, etc.) and that we will get to see more of him.
I think the 'flutter' was poor writing. Her saying that he was in Iron Heights as a kid and he passed would be enough to say that she's suspicious.
I *think* I figured out the logic of this, although it's still sketchy...
But I think where she's coming from is --
1. She thinks Oliver actually remembered the field trip but lied, because he was afraid that if he had admitted he had been at the prison, it would open him up to deeper questioning. And thus...
2. That an intentional lie showed up only as a barely noticeable flutter means that he could have successfully masked other lies he told during the interrogation.
The reason Laurel pays attention to it when Quentin and the lab tech don't is because she knew Oliver either lied or misremembered something answering that question, and thus knew to look for something (I don't think she told her father about it). The "flutter" was probably within normal parameters so not having further information, the analysts had no reason to think anything was up. And that's also why Laurel doesn't have a lot of room to keep questioning Ollie--she notices a flutter, but it's so small it could be she only picked it out because she was looking for it.
And as a random DC comics trivia note, William Moulton Marston invented the systolic blood pressure test used to help detect deception, which later became a component of the polygraph machine. His contribution to the art of detecting lies was, intentionally or not, reflected in his OTHER invention, the character Wonder Woman, who carries the lasso of truth. :)
Kalshane,
If this is in response to my response to Matt: what I am saying is, Laurel thinks Ollie DOES remember going on the field trip. But she thinks he said he didn't because he was afraid to admit he had been to the prison at all. Remember that while she says she thought he might have forgotten, she also thought he answered that way "because he got nervous."
I.e., this is from Laurel's point of view. She thinks he lied about visiting the prison (and he did, though not for the reasons she thinks he did). She is worried that the lie she suspects him of making only registered so minimally on the polygraph that he might have lied on other answers as well and it didn't register. In other words, she agrees with you about the polygraph's limited accuracy.
Make sense?
I like the show. Its not without flaws (as others have noted above), but I still like it. My major complaint is that Ollie is too murderous for me. Shooting someone trying to shoot you doesn't bother me, but "You have failed this city" followed by shooting down an unarmed man does bother me.
I don't recall when Ollie killed an unarmed man in Arrow. When was this? I know he has taken out several that has shot at him. I am not saying it didn't happen, I just don't recall the episode or the scene, and did we see him killing the person?
Also, in the pilot Ollie kills one of his kidnapers after beating and disarming him to protect his secret.
Were the men that were killed bad ones? Sure. But killing them that way is still murder.
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I don't recall when Ollie killed an unarmed man in Arrow. When was this? I know he has taken out several that has shot at him. I am not saying it didn't happen, I just don't recall the episode or the scene, and did we see him killing the person?** spoiler omitted **
Now the fact that the Arrow is a vigilante, any deaths that occur by the vigilante is in effect a murder, since his purpose was confrontational from the beginning. Plus he is working outside the law. To do this without casualties would relegate Arrow to a cheesy 60's Batman serial, and quite frankly IMO a far less interesting show.
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We often see stories about a good hero's dark turn toward vengeance and murder. What interests me about Arrow is that I am getting the sense--especially with Diggle and even Laurel's growing influence on Ollie--that we are seeing instead a story about a vengeance-driven anti-hero who sometimes murders who is on a slow path toward becoming a hero. And I find that a lot more interesting! Redemption stories are always good, and this one has a good twist in that somewhere in there, he does have good reasons for doing what he is doing, but his ends do not always justify the means.
Huh. I didn't get the same vibe that his sister would become Speedy.
My first thought upon hearing the nickname was "she's totally going to die in the season finale to give him a reason to call his sidekick that."
Interesting.
OK, so...Ollie can shoot arrows under almost any circumstances, run as fast as a motorcycle but can't
Also, on the Merlyn thing...
Also