What's wrong with just using charisma?
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Charisma is NOT a direct measure of attractiveness. Charisma could stand for a character's force of personality, his personal sense of who he is within his universe. It could also be a measure of his innate social understanding. Or his sanity. Characters with low Charisma are generally inept at dealing with other people, or with changes to his own universe.
I know of many amazingly beautiful people who have turned out to be vain, shallow, heartless airheads who couldn't hold a conversation in a bucket. These people actually have LOW Charisma, because they don't deal with interpersonal relations well. Yes, they look hawt. Still, low charisma.
I generally go with "the character looks like he or she wants to look, dependent upon her circumstances and social standing". A noble-born woman who is amazingly beautiful may be selfish, cruel and vain and turn everyone around her against her as the spits her vitriolic poison to those who will listen to her -- she probably has a low(er) Charisma. A peasant of the streets may have some disfigurements, but wherever she goes she puts a smile on the faces of people who meet her -- she has a high Charisma despite her facial disfigurements, ratty clothing and dirt-smudged face.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I just leave it to the player. After all with the number of drop dead gorgeous charisma 3 NPCs that paizo has put out coupled with the number of absolutel hideous charisma 20+ NPCs and monsters paizo has put out I'm comfortable just letting the PCs tell me what their characters look like.
After all looks are not everything.
Charisma is NOT a direct measure of attractiveness. Charisma could stand for a character's force of personality, his personal sense of who he is within his universe. It could also be a measure of his innate social understanding. Or his sanity. Characters with low Charisma are generally inept at dealing with other people, or with changes to his own universe.
I know of many amazingly beautiful people who have turned out to be vain, shallow, heartless airheads who couldn't hold a conversation in a bucket. These people actually have LOW Charisma, because they don't deal with interpersonal relations well. Yes, they look hawt. Still, low charisma.
I generally go with "the character looks like he or she wants to look, dependent upon her circumstances and social standing". A noble-born woman who is amazingly beautiful may be selfish, cruel and vain and turn everyone around her against her as the spits her vitriolic poison to those who will listen to her -- she probably has a low(er) Charisma. A peasant of the streets may have some disfigurements, but wherever she goes she puts a smile on the faces of people who meet her -- she has a high Charisma despite her facial disfigurements, ratty clothing and dirt-smudged face.
Well said.
Charisma is NOT a direct measure of attractiveness. Charisma could stand for a character's force of personality, his personal sense of who he is within his universe. It could also be a measure of his innate social understanding. Or his sanity. Characters with low Charisma are generally inept at dealing with other people, or with changes to his own universe.
I know of many amazingly beautiful people who have turned out to be vain, shallow, heartless airheads who couldn't hold a conversation in a bucket. These people actually have LOW Charisma, because they don't deal with interpersonal relations well. Yes, they look hawt. Still, low charisma.
I generally go with "the character looks like he or she wants to look, dependent upon her circumstances and social standing". A noble-born woman who is amazingly beautiful may be selfish, cruel and vain and turn everyone around her against her as the spits her vitriolic poison to those who will listen to her -- she probably has a low(er) Charisma. A peasant of the streets may have some disfigurements, but wherever she goes she puts a smile on the faces of people who meet her -- she has a high Charisma despite her facial disfigurements, ratty clothing and dirt-smudged face.
Sounds like a job for both Circumstance Penalties and Circumstance Bonuses.
My paladin loves drop-dead gorgeous charisma 3 NPCs. They generally don't defend against social skill usage all that well, and he needs fresh meat for his brothel.
What? It's a legal business, and a well-established and highly-paid profession. It's not like I'm enslaving them. I offer prospective employees meals, clothing, and training in a prestigious and lucrative career field.
Paladin with a deity (if yes, which one) or without?
Like I said, circumstance factors.
Attractiveness scores are only for petty people who want to lord their character's looks over those unfortunate enough to roll low. 'If I were going to use a score' is irrelevant. I would not. My games are not this petty. Look like how you want to look like. Attractiveness gives you no in-game benefit.
Remember too that Pathfinder is a game of many many many races, and what is attractive to one race will not necessarily be attractive to the rest. Inner beauty and personality are much more interesting and what social interaction would be based upon.
If you really want to have some sort of score so you can point to the people who rolled low and laugh, go ahead. You wouldn't find me playing in your game, ever, and I have the feeling that if you do this, you will find yourself short of players. I'd like to think you're more mature than that, but eh.
Although if you REALLY need rules for that sort of thing, you might want to check out the Book of Erotic Fiction. It's not Pathfinder, but neither is what you're suggesting.
You can make your character look like whatever u want
Personally, i look at my abilities.
High strength = large and well formed muscles
High con = tough or even worn skin (for example)
High dex = thin appendages, but well defined muscles
the other scores are mental based, not physical
If its really an issue make Attractive a feat, takeable to a maximum of 2 times. Each time you take it you get a bonus of +2 on social skill interactions with the opposite sex(if they swing that way). This is what they do in Mutants & Masterminds, also a d20 based system, and it works pretty well from what I've seen to describe the high end lookers.
Changelings of a Green Hag heritage actually have a racial bonus against lesbians and straight men.
You can be pretty as a peach, but for real inner fire, for your capacity at seduction, for those eyes that promise delights, well, you need charisma and skill at seduction (which has for a while in 3.5 been bluff).
You don't need a great charisma to seduce, you could just know what you are doing.
Attractiveness is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but it really depends on the target audience. I find some "pretty" blondes look awful like half-finished paintings, but I also have yellow fever. Darn.
That reminded me, why is Bluff the seduction skill instead of Diplomacy?
Do you really need to lie every time you want to bed someone in the D&D / Pathfinder world?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That reminded me, why is Bluff the seduction skill instead of Diplomacy?
Do you really need to lie every time you want to bed someone in the D&D / Pathfinder world?
I think you could use different CHR based skills to seduce.
Diplomacy = "I'll show you mine if you show me yours."
Bluff = "I have Huge Tracts of Land, and I am going to show them to you just after you do this one little thing for me...please." *Flash Smile and Wink*
Intimidate = "Ohhh, she has such Huge Tracts of Land and she might show them to me." *Sweaty Palms and Hyperventilating* "What do I do if she shows them to me?"
Perform = Good Night Kids!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One problem is that physical attractiveness is fashion-dependant. Sometimes a fair skin is desirable, other years we all should get a tan. Both a high and a low Constitution score have made people swoon over the centuries, and whether being bulked-out lets you "score" also changes with the seasons.
Currently though, a decent Strength score outweighs Dexterity in importance, but Constitution should be even bigger. Wisdom can be dumped and Intelligence doesn't get you anywhere either. Charisma is possibly the nearest thing to a constant requirement to be "hot".
Also: low weight, high length.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That reminded me, why is Bluff the seduction skill instead of Diplomacy?
Do you really need to lie every time you want to bed someone in the D&D / Pathfinder world?
Bluffing isn't (necessarily) lying, it's making someone believe something. So yes: telling a person you love them is a Bluff check, regardless of your motivation.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you insist on attractiveness being connected to game stats, very attractive person will have ALL of his ability scores on the high end. Most people will search for "the perfect person" (with high scores in everything)but will settle for lower scores according to what they value more important:
Str: a person with bigger muscles or that looks physically capable is attractive. It is usually more important in male objects of attraction.
Dex: a person who looks like he is in control of his body is attractive. This person is nimble, can probably dance well jump high and so on.
Con: a person who looks healthy is attractive. Health is perhaps one of the most evolutionary driven criteria for the way we chose partners. If str/dex can be overlooked in a female, no one ignores con. Does she have "child bearing hips?" is a mans most primitive observation of a potential woman partner. We also look for symmetry in someones face and body (good genes) and good complexion (not sickly). If I had to chose the most important factor in physical attractiveness, it would be constitution.
Int: an in intelligent person is attractive. A person who can understand many things, can provide a better income and solve problems is a desirable mate. True, some people may not think this to be the most important bit, but most people will find an intelligent person more attractive than a stupid one.
Wis: a wise person is attractive. The person who is profound, logical and "get's me" is desirable person. The Wis-Int division is an old debate in D&D but if Int is "booksmart" and Wis is "people smart" it is obvious both variably important for attractiveness according to taste...
Cha: a charismatic person is attractive. The one who always says the right thing, who makes me feed special, who is full of positive energy - that's an attractive person. I think it is sort of agreed that good looks doesn't equal Charisma in the game and that was also the assumption by the OP.
In the 3rd party book Book of Erotic Fantasy (D&D 3.5) are rules for appearance. Charisma is split up in two abilities, charisma and appearance. Some skills use CHA and some APP.
|
I've been wondering about the concept of attractiveness and how to go about calculating general attractiveness. So far I have the strength modifier and charisma modifier as appart of the equation but I want to know what you all think
It's solely character description. You look like how you want to look like. Charisma score allows you to affect the game with it.
Pretty simple.
Wayyyy back, in AD&D days, an article in Dragon magazine introduced a "Comeliness" stat; it was in independent 7th ability statistic which was primarily descriptive (ie. had few mechanical effects).
Beyond that, it's a matter of player desire. Granted, there are a few archetypes and so on which may imply physical ugliness (the Bloatmage comes to mind), but outside of introducing some lightweight feats (maybe "Dashing" or "Lovely" to grant a +2/+4 bonus to social interactions with like types which might plausibly be romantically interested).
Plenty can be done with the existing mechanics. Ex: my sorceress, who is vain beyond belief (and is portrayed as being extraordinarily beautiful independent of her 29 charisma), uses magic to "improve on perfection", such as using prestidigitation to effect cosmetic improvements (like complicated makeup application or hair styles), Alter Self in extreme cases where she might want to be, say, a beautiful... gnoll or something (hey, you never know), maybe a modified "pretty" version of Haunted Fey Aspect ("Otherworldly Fey Beauty"), and, someday (when she's old), the various "age reduction" spells.
I describe her as "supernaturally beautiful", which is rather fitting for a fey-bloodline sorceress.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
My fey sorceress keeps a breeze cantrip active more or less constantly, for the shampoo commercial effect.
But are we sure attractiveness is measurable. Why can't there be uncountably infinite degrees of attractiveness.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Although if you REALLY need rules for that sort of thing, you might want to check out the Book of Erotic Fiction. It's not Pathfinder, but neither is what you're suggesting.
the crossbreeding chart in that still makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.
OP: simple answer; how the character is described.
slightly longer answer; differing concepts by the numerous species as to what "beauty" is, as well as the misconception that the beholders are hoarding it all--I can assure you there is none in their eyes, all that's in there is blood and goo. I know, I've checked.
My fey sorceress keeps a breeze cantrip active more or less constantly, for the shampoo commercial effect.
because she's worth it.
The RP description of the character? If it sounds attractive, it is. If not, it isn't.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The RP description of the character? If it sounds attractive, it is. If not, it isn't.
Problem is, not everyone finds the same things attractive.
What's wrong with just using charisma?
A number of things have already been pointed out as detractors for just using charisma but one that I haven't seen mentioned is that if charisma = hottness then certain classes will always be gorgeous and cerain classes will usualy be hideous.
You would not for example be able to make a mechanicly effective but hideously ugly sorcerer or a monk that also happens to be quite alluring.
- Torger
What's wrong with just using charisma?A number of things have already been pointed out as detractors for just using charisma but one that I haven't seen mentioned is that if charisma = hottness then certain classes will always be gorgeous and cerain classes will usualy be hideous.
You would not for example be able to make a mechanicly effective but hideously ugly sorcerer or a monk that also happens to be quite alluring.
- Torger
yeah, even the sorcerers who are literally rotting away in front of you (undead bloodline) or have freakish disfigurements (aberrant bloodline), and then theres those insanely-high-charisma monsters that are absolutely hideous both physically and spiritually (like hags, among several other things)
actually, what monster has the highest listed charisma score, i'm curious now.
yeah, even the sorcerers who are literally rotting away in front of you (undead bloodline)
And Oracles with the Rotting curse.
yeah, even the sorcerers who are literally rotting away in front of you (undead bloodline)And Oracles with the Rotting curse.
and knight of the sepulcher antipaladins.
The RP description of the character? If it sounds attractive, it is. If not, it isn't.Problem is, not everyone finds the same things attractive.
And this is diffrent from real life how?
Just for kicks, when my players want to have a value assigned to attractiveness, we use the equation of (Charisma+Constitution)/2. Apply the resulting number to the same scale the attributes are based on (10 being average) and you have a number that we've had no problems with.
That being said, yeah..you could always just say "He's extremely attractive" or "She looks like an angel" and be done with it.
|
I agree with most of the post being that its just how u describe the character. If u want to give an equation though id say for girls it would be dex + cha + con and for dudes it would be str + cha + con. Dex for flexibility XD. Con is the character's general health, i dont kno about u but a person coughing up a lung and is catching every known disease is not attractive. And cha for how out going they are and general b****ness they are.