Magus question, concerning metamagic rods and spellstrike


Rules Questions


Can use use a metamagic rod with a 2 handed weapon and spell strike ?


Anyone have any ideas?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

No. You need one hand free to hold the rod.


Keep in mind that you can only use spell combat with 1 handed weapons.


I said spell strike not spell combat.

Grand Lodge

You need one hand to cast. You need one hand to hold the rod.(can't be the same hand) So using the two-handed weapon method with spell strike you would need an additional limb. This can be done with prehencile tail (tiefling) or alchemist extra limb, or a race with more than two hands.


jyster wrote:
I said spell strike not spell combat.

Wrong, you typed it. Saying something requires sound.

I was giving you advice. Using a 2 hander is foolish for a magus because you're giving up spell combat for a slightly higher damage die. Not worth it.


Jyster:

YES you can..there IS a way.

Use a Weapon Cord.

Step 1: Drop weapon (free action)
Step 2: Draw Metamagic Rod (move action)
Step 3: Cast spell (standard action)
Step 4: Drop Metamagic Rod (free action)
Step 5: Retrieve weapon (swift action)
Step 6: Make attack (free action)

Now, the reason you do not discharge your spell the moment you retrieve the weapon is because the Spellstrike FAQ Here states that picking up a weapon does not discharge the spell like a normal touch spell would.

Note: a Glove of Storing would prevent you from having to drop the Metamagic Rod.

- Gauss


If you have a spell you want to use a lot like this then magic linage for it and still spell take out the need a hand to cast


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Gauss is correct.

In order to use Spellstrike, you must cast a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list. As long as you've done that, then you can deliver the spell through any weapon you are wielding as part of a melee attack.

In order to use a metamagic rod, you need to hold it while you cast the spell.

You don't have to be wielding the weapon at the time of casting, just at the time you make the attack to deliver the spell. You can use weapon cords, quickdraw, held charges, extra limbs, gloves of storing, etc.


Talonhawke wrote:
If you have a spell you want to use a lot like this then magic linage for it and still spell take out the need a hand to cast

It's an interesting concept. Can a magus use still spell metamagic to eliminate the somatic component of the spell, and therefore use spell combat while wielding a weapon two-handed? I think this should work by RAI, not so sure about the RAW though.


Gauss wrote:

Jyster:

YES you can..there IS a way.

Use a Weapon Cord.

Step 1: Drop weapon (free action)
Step 2: Draw Metamagic Rod (move action)
Step 3: Cast spell (standard action)
Step 4: Drop Metamagic Rod (free action)
Step 5: Retrieve weapon (swift action)
Step 6: Make attack (free action)

- Gauss

Or another way:

Step 0: Start with metamagic rod in hand.
Step 1: Cast spell (standard action).
Step 2: Drop rod (free action).
Step 3: Move to opponent (move action).
Step 4: Draw weapon during movement (free action).
Step 5: Make attack to deliver spell (free action).

Steps 3&4 can be combined if movement beyond a 5' step is unneeded. In that case quick draw could also allow one to (move action) stow the metamagic rod rather than dropping it.

-James


D'arandriel wrote:
Can a magus use still spell metamagic to eliminate the somatic component of the spell, and therefore use spell combat while wielding a weapon two-handed?

No.

Spell Combat (Ex): "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand."


On a somewhat related note, even though they are not the best type of weapon for a magus to use, how would metamagic rods, spell strike, and cesti work together?

Since you can still use the hand your wearing a cestus on, could you have a metamagic rod in it, have the other hand free, cast your spell and then punch with the cestus using spell strike?


Krigare wrote:

On a somewhat related note, even though they are not the best type of weapon for a magus to use, how would metamagic rods, spell strike, and cesti work together?

Since you can still use the hand your wearing a cestus on, could you have a metamagic rod in it, have the other hand free, cast your spell and then punch with the cestus using spell strike?

Yep. Just like a spiked gauntlet. You can do that with Spell Combat, too, since they're both light weapons, and your other hand is free.


If you use spell combat, can you cleave afterwards?


jyster wrote:
If you use spell combat, can you cleave afterwards?

It depends on what you mean by afterwards. Cleave is a standard action, and Spell Combat is a full-round action. Under normal circumstances, you will need to wait until your next turn to use Cleave after Spell Combat.

If you mean Cleave during Spell Combat, no.

If you mean use Cleave with Spellstrike, sure.

Here's A Guide to Touch Spells, Spellstrike, and Spell Combat.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

why does ultimate combat have Arcana: Rod Wielder and Rod Mastery
Rod Wielder almost makes it sound like you can spellstrike with any rod... using the rod to hit someone. I know some rods count as light maces or whatnot. but metamagic rods don't, do they? are they improvised clubs?

Quote:

Rod Mastery (Su): Whenever the magus uses a rod, he calculates the DC for any spell it contains using his Intelligence modifier (minimum 0) instead of the minimum modifier needed to cast a spell of that level.

Rod Wielder (Su): The magus adds his Intelligence bonus (minimum 0) on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance when using a spell contained within a rod or when making a spellstrike attack channeled through a rod.

Dark Archive

Seraphimpunk wrote:

why does ultimate combat have Arcana: Rod Wielder and Rod Mastery

Rod Wielder almost makes it sound like you can spellstrike with any rod... using the rod to hit someone. I know some rods count as light maces or whatnot. but metamagic rods don't, do they? are they improvised clubs?

Quote:

Rod Mastery (Su): Whenever the magus uses a rod, he calculates the DC for any spell it contains using his Intelligence modifier (minimum 0) instead of the minimum modifier needed to cast a spell of that level.

Rod Wielder (Su): The magus adds his Intelligence bonus (minimum 0) on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance when using a spell contained within a rod or when making a spellstrike attack channeled through a rod.

Nope. There is nothing in the listing for either of those abilities that speaks about or interacts with spellstrike or spellcombat.

These arcana as written are designed to be used when you don't have a weapon in your hand.
Not everything about the Magus class revolves around hitting things with a weapon.


Krigare wrote:

On a somewhat related note, even though they are not the best type of weapon for a magus to use, how would metamagic rods, spell strike, and cesti work together?

Since you can still use the hand your wearing a cestus on, could you have a metamagic rod in it, have the other hand free, cast your spell and then punch with the cestus using spell strike?

Not in one round. You can cast the spell in one round with the rod, then attack the next round using the cestus. The same is possible with unarmed strike, natural attacks, armor spikes and a few other weapons.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

1. you always have to have a weapon in your hand to attack as a magus, as its been said you can't enhance an unarmed strike via your arcane pool.

2. one of the arcanas specifically says when spell striking with the rod.

Quote:
Rod Wielder (Su): The magus adds his Intelligence bonus (minimum 0) on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance when using a spell contained within a rod or when making a spellstrike attack channeled through a rod.

a spellstrike channeled through a rod indicates that you've cast a spell via spell combat, and are now using spellstrike to hit someone with the rod to deal damage and discharge the held spell.

which indicates that its possible to spellstrike with a rod, and use the rod as the weapon.
its confusing because there's also Wand Wielder, which lets you do spell combat from a wand in one hand instead of a free hand, and a weapon in your main hand.


How about bashing someone with the rod?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

right? that'd make it a weapon, an improvised club or something? or just a club?
i know some rods count as light maces, or even +1 or +2 light maces.


Seraphimpunk wrote:

right? that'd make it a weapon, an improvised club or something? or just a club?

i know some rods count as light maces, or even +1 or +2 light maces.

That section is a little odd. Some of them are light maces, but none of them are called out specifically as being clubs.

Its a three foot rod of metal. Considering you can get a club for free as a stick they should work as clubs.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

yeah, same damage, 1d6 for medium. same crit.
don't have a range increment for a thrown light mace,
and its light, aka a light weapon vs. a club's one handed weapon.

an immovable rod can support 8,000lbs of pressure, but doesn't say whether it can act as a club or mace.

it just says in the general rod physical description section:

Quote:
(Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction.) These sturdy items have AC 9, 10 hit points, hardness 10, and a break DC of 27.

it'd make it a lot easier to metamagic a spell if you're spellstriking through the rod itself =P lol

which can be a con in allowing characters to do it. = P


I was thinking along the same vein as Seraphimpunk would a Rod build work for the Magus with spell storing the Arcana's look much more attractive like that and DC and Spell Penetration would be a lot higher.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
jyster wrote:
Can use use a metamagic rod with a 2 handed weapon and spell strike ?

Only if you're improvising the rod itself as your (lousy) two handed weapon. What you need is something like a metamagic helm.


Would you need improvised weapon for that or just use them as a "can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction." It seems a little vague.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
stealthymonkeyman wrote:
Would you need improvised weapon for that or just use them as a "can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction." It seems a little vague.

Some one who wants to go so far that they are looking for two handed weapon damage on top of spell strike is generally looking for something better than either option.


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Are you referring to munchkin like behaviour with spell combat and magus switching weapon grips as a free action that seems legit raw wise but I Don't know if that was intended that way. My question is directed in a different vein can you not use the ROD as the weapon itself. It would be weapon which you can then enchant with spell storing and then using arcana's spell strike through the rod with high SR and DC because of rod mastery and rod wielder. You give up spell crit but at least your spells will hit.


Tiefling. Prehensile tail.

Rod states it has to be held not wielded(which the tail can't do). Done.

Note, this doesn't let you spell combat with a 2 handed weapon for a full round of attacks, it just lets you cast as a standard action normally, and deliver a single strike through a 2 handed weapon as the free touch "Spellstrike" attack.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
TGMaxMaxer wrote:
Rod states it has to be held not wielded(which the tail can't do). Done.

Not entirely true:

Rods wrote:
Activation: Details relating to rod use vary from item to item. Unless noted otherwise, you must be holding a rod to use its abilities. See the individual descriptions for specifics.

Metamagic rods specify that you have to wield them. For example:

Empower meatamagic rod wrote:
The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are empowered as though using the Empower Spell feat.


Except that for non-weapon/shields being "wielded" just means being held or worn.

They can't mean the same "wielded" as in the defending weapon usage, since they can't be used in the same round as an attack (magus being the exception, which wasn't there when they were first used, or swift action castings).

Wielded means different things for different item categories, so for the purpose of Metamagic Rods a Tiefling's Tail is sufficient.


Pointing out retrieval via weapon cords has been errata.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
TGMaxMaxer wrote:

Except that for non-weapon/shields being "wielded" just means being held or worn.

They can't mean the same "wielded" as in the defending weapon usage, since they can't be used in the same round as an attack (magus being the exception, which wasn't there when they were first used, or swift action castings).

Wielded means different things for different item categories, so for the purpose of Metamagic Rods a Tiefling's Tail is sufficient.

Citation please.


There are a ton of threads to dig through. It was a post by SKR on one of the many Wielding arguments.

He stated that for things like the Defending weapon property, the weapon had to be used that round to make an attack to count, but for non-weapon/shield items that they merely needed to be held or worn.

I didn't post to the thread myself, so I can't just look it up, but it's here on the forums.

This gets re-hashed about every 3-4 months, like people have never seen it before, even though it's been around since 3.0, 3.5, and now carried into pathfinder since different writers use "wielded" to mean different things depending on their understanding (or lack thereof) of the insane parsing people will do later.

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