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just to put my two coppers in. I think one of the worst feats in the game is Diehard......That one in my point of view is a PC killer.
I saw an interesting discussion that pointed out Diehard doesn't actually do anything as it is written.
Because when you go to negative HP, you have more non-lethal damage than HP, and immediately go unconscious.
...huh. Who'da thunk? Diehard goes on the list then, I guess.
There really do need to be two lists at this point though: Rules errors and just g~*@&&n awful. Die hard and prone shooter on the first list, powerful sneak and it's insidious ilk on the second. Anybody know a feat that deserves to be on both lists?
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Monkey Lunge could be used for an a defensive build focusing on AoOs to hamper enemy movement. If all i want to do is stand in this door and irritate the crap out of everything, Monkey Lunge.
Yes, this may work... see readied actions.
"I ready an action to attack anyone moving out of a squre I might threaten with Monkey Lunge plus my free 5 foot step that comes with my readied action."
So, at the point when the foe triggers your readied action you take a 5 footer as needed and burn a standard to extend your reach as the enemy attempts to move through that square, thus really being able to reactively swat targets in a very wide area...
Then, should he/she/it survive, "...he continues his actions once you've completed your readied action..."
... and your reach returns to normal as your turn has now ended and your initiative is reset.
Maybe. The rules lawyers will realy have to look that interpretation over.
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On another common use note...:
Fighter: I remain standing where I am and ready and action to use my longspear to stab that evil sorceror 15 feet from me...
Evil Sorceror: I step back another 5 feet and begin casting Ray of Stupidly Painful Death at that silly warrior over there...
Fighter: 'Ere we go! I step forward 5 feet for free, use my standard to Monkey Lunge, and now that guy is casting within my 15 foot reach! Hah haaa! <JABBITY JAB!>
Evil Sorceror: Where the **** did that come from?!? Arrrgh... <FIZZLE... THUMP> I would have done it too if it wasn't for you pesky Murder Hobos and you Monkey Lunge..... <DIES>
You people should read the SRD more, Monkey Lunge and Elephant stomp work now.
Elephant Stomp (Combat)
You deliver a crushing blow to downed enemies.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, Improved Overrun, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space and knocking her prone, you may stop in the space directly in front of the opponent (or the nearest adjacent space) and make one attack with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon against that opponent as an immediate action.
Normal: When your overrun maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and she is knocked prone.
I think this fear was meant for the mount to take though, hence the unarmed/natural attacks only
Monkey Lunge (Combat)
You can quickly recover from your lunges, helping you to avoid counterattacks.
Prerequisites: Lunge, Acrobatics 1 rank.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can use the Lunge feat to increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn, without suffering a penalty to your AC. You cannot use this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load.
Normal: You take a -2 penalty to your AC until your next turn when making a lunge attack.
You spend a standard action, to get a standard action that can only be used to attack with the lunge feat and not take the -2 AC penalty
My vote for worst feat ever goes to HAMMER THE GAP. Not because it doesn't do anything but because the feat promises so much.
I first saw it and was reminded of Tome of Battle's move: Girrillon Windmill Flesh Rip.
Because the feat adds extra damage based on consecutive hits.
For a TWF with some 7 odd attacks it sounded awesome.
Till you do the math realizing the word CONSECUTIVE kills the feat. You need to hit like 5 consecutive times to equal Weapon Spec.Do the odds of 5 consecutive hits.
This is only to be taken for 20th level with a hasted, +45/45/45/40/40/35/35/30 attack routine. Before that it blows.
Improved Critical or Crit focus is sooo much better.
Hammer the gap is awesome on specific builds, Pistolero gunslinger with it and Clustered Shots is doing LOTS of massive damage in a full round.
Also, hammer the gap is one of the few forms of bonus damage you can get that is multiplied on crits.
just to put my two coppers in. I think one of the worst feats in the game is Diehard......That one in my point of view is a PC killer.
I saw an interesting discussion that pointed out Diehard doesn't actually do anything as it is written.
Because when you go to negative HP, you have more non-lethal damage than HP, and immediately go unconscious.
... What... I don't... I don't think that's right.
Unless you got hit with a non-lethal attack sometime during combat, you should have no non-lethal damage. Not 0 non-lethal damage, none.
You people should read the SRD more, Monkey Lunge and Elephant stomp work now.Uh...what changed?
Elephant Stomp is an immediate action (so it's usable in a charge) and Monkey lunge spends a standard action to use lunge AS your standard action instead of spending a standard TO use lune without the -2
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I don't see how that fixes any of the problems. I'm not sure that is even a change.
What would fix them is having Elephant Stomp allow you to make an attack as an immediate action during a successful overrun that beats the enemy CMD by 5 or more without aborting the overrun, and Monkey Lunge allow you to make one attack with the Lunge feat while ignoring the -2 to AC as a standard action.
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Those didn't change. You just don't get why they don't work as written in the first place.
Elephant Stomp lets you, when you pass an overrun check, stop moving and make a single attack. A standard charge lets you do exactly the same thing without requiring an overrun check. Elephant Stomp does nothing.
Monkey Lunge lets you use Lunge as a standard action. All using Lunge does is increase your range; it doesn't actually include making any attacks. But now you can't use any attacks because you spent your standard action increasing your range.
Those didn't change. You just don't get why they don't work as written in the first place.
Elephant Stomp lets you, when you pass an overrun check, stop moving and make a single attack. A standard charge lets you do exactly the same thing without requiring an overrun check. Elephant Stomp does nothing.
Monkey Lunge lets you use Lunge as a standard action. All using Lunge does is increase your range; it doesn't actually include making any attacks. But now you can't use any attacks because you spent your standard action increasing your range.
Okay after re-reading Lunge your right, Monkey lunge is a bad feat.
Elephant Stomp lets you do an extra attack when you are mounted and doing a charge (since overrun can be done as part of a charge. You attack once, your mount attacks twice if it has elephant stomp instead of once as well) at the cost of stopping the overrun. Is it good? not really, but it's still usefull
I might get flamed to a crisp, but I strongly believe that any Improved, Greater and Superior feat is worst than the previous one.
There's this huge argument that Pathfinder gets to be too feat-reliant at some points, and I'm starting to see why: it takes a lot of feats to get what you need.
For instance, there is the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree. Improved and Greater are considered "worst" because you need to take them. My complain is more that Two-Weapon Fighting should be only one feat that gets progressively stronger as you level up. That'sa just one example, because there are more feats like that.
So yeah, any Improved and Greater feat is worst.
So yeah, any Improved and Greater feat is worst.
No, that's not worst by any stretch. I agree that there's a problem with the system there and you're right that it's a pain in the ass needing a feat to do that stuff, but the fact is, taking the feat still tangibly benefits your character.
A tangible benefit is in no way as bad as something which can only ever hinder you, does nothing at all, or benefits you so little or infrequently that it never sees noteworthy use.
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Not a feat, but if we're finding enough worthless stuff to make the most pointless character ever, I have to bring up Researching the Blot: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/second-darkness/researching- the-blot
It lets you use Spellcraft to identify magic items with a DC of 20 + the item’s caster level... even though you can already identify magic items with Spellcraft with a DC of 15 + the item’s caster level.
just to put my two coppers in. I think one of the worst feats in the game is Diehard......That one in my point of view is a PC killer.
I saw an interesting discussion that pointed out Diehard doesn't actually do anything as it is written.
Because when you go to negative HP, you have more non-lethal damage than HP, and immediately go unconscious.
It still lets you auto-stabilize, so at least it does something (very marginal). It's like, nearly worth a trait.
And it's a matter of interpretation - if you have no subdual damage, is that equal to 0 subdual damage? It's vague, I think, and in other circumstances one would have a different answer. Look at Animal Growh. It says "The creature's existing natural armor bonus increases by 2". Is having no armor bonus equal to having a 0 armor bonus? Would it work if the target had a 0 armor bonus? I think the intent is that it wouldn't work (hence why "existing") but the RAW logic is the same case as the Diehard feat.
How many cantrips do you need? Sorcerer eventually knows 9 cantrips without a feat. How many are worth knowing?
It's a pretty bad use for a feat, IMHO.
Remember that not everyone is a PC going into the high levels. For a DM creating a village soothsayer (lvl 1 oracle that hopefully never will get into a fight), knowing Mending and Purify Food and Drink in addition to Create Water, Detect Magic, Stabilize, and Guidance might be very flavorful.
Not to mention it can fool metagaming PC's who's seen the oracle cast all of them into thinking it's at least 4th level ;D
Several of those very circumstantial feats are probably as much for npc's as players.
And it's a matter of interpretation - if you have no subdual damage, is that equal to 0 subdual damage? It's vague, I think, and in other circumstances one would have a different answer. Look at Animal Growh. It says "The creature's existing natural armor bonus increases by 2". Is having no armor bonus equal to having a 0 armor bonus? Would it work if the target had a 0 armor bonus? I think the intent is that it wouldn't work (hence why "existing") but the RAW logic is the same case as the Diehard feat.
I think the intent there is that it does work, and the wording is just designed to make it clear that this stacks with any existing natural armor. After all, PC's with no natural armor from their race can still gain an enhancement bonus to their natural armor with an Amulet of Natural Armor.
Arguing that "zero =/= none" feels like hairsplitting, and leads to weird situations where the guy with Diehard will remain standing if you smash him for 10 lethal damage but will collapse if you slap him for 1 nonlethal damage. That is very obviously not the intent.
(It also seems obvious to me that Diehard is intended to allow you to remain conscious in spite of nonlethal damage as well as lethal damage but was just badly-worded.)
I think the intent there is that it does work, and the wording is just designed to make it clear that this stacks with any existing natural armor. After all, PC's with no natural armor from their race can still gain an enhancement bonus to their natural armor with an Amulet of Natural Armor.
Arguing that "zero =/= none" feels like hairsplitting,
In other parts of the game, "zero =/= none" is explicit RAW (ability scores, spells/day etc) so it's not a new concept.
I don't think the intent is that it's there just to stack with for example the NA of a horse - because it says "increase". I can't see how the "existing" word makes any difference at all unless 0 =/= none.
But Diehard still doesn't work very well, I agree. Personally I'd make the ability more something like "if hit point damage would cause you to become unconscious, you may choose to ignore that effect unconscious for a full round. After you've used this ability it can't be used again until you've rested for an hour." or something similar.
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Re-looking at the feat, and comparing it to Expanded Arcana (which is otherwise simply better in all ways to it), it seems that you might be able to add spells from other spell lists to your known cantrips/orizons, though limited to the same arcane/divine type you use.
SRD text:
"Extra Cantrips or Orisons
You are a master of minor spells.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast cantrips or orisons.
Benefit: Add two cantrips to your cantrips known or two orisons to your orisons known.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, add two cantrips or orisons to your spells known. "
SRD:
"Expanded Arcana
Your research has revealed new spells.
Prerequisites: Caster level 1st, see Special.
Benefit: Add one spell from your class's spell list to your list of spells known. This is in addition to the number of spells normally gained at each new level in your class. You may instead add two spells from your class's spell list to your list of spells known, but both of these spells must be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast in that class. Once made, these choices cannot be changed.
Special: You can only take this feat if you possess levels in a class whose spellcasting relies on a limited list of spells known, such as the bard, oracle, and sorcerer.
You can gain Expanded Arcana multiple times."
Note that Expanded Arcana notes that it must be from the same spell list - Extra Cantrips does not.
Rather, it says you add two cantrips to your cantrip known (or the same for orizons, but no adding cantrips to orizons known). Since the feat is made for spontaneous casters, there's no issue of spell slots for the cantrips/orizons.
I see no RAW reason a sorcerer can't use this to add the stabilize and lullaby cantrips to his cantrips known (from the witch and bard spell lists).
It's not like it'd be a great feat regardless, but it wouldn't make it completely superflous compared to expanded arcana, and it would give it some niche usefulness. EDIT: I could see an oracle adding Brand from the inquisitor list - it's a really cool spell, though not very powerful.
Confused about the Diehard comments above.
You are especially hard to kill. Not only do your wounds automatically stabilize when grievously injured, but you can remain conscious and continue to act even at death's door.Prerequisite: Endurance.
Benefit: When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.
When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.
Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to negative hit points is unconscious and dying.
Which has nothing to do with lethal, nonlethal or whatever.
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When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round (in addition to free, immediate, and swift actions). You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.
When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.
Diehard does not change anything about the bolded text. It should read 'You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than unconscious and dying.'
Babble-Peddler - If you fail the role, bad things happen. Depending on what you want to do, you could get a -4 on you roll, your DM is allowed to say no you can't do that, and if you are allowed and pass the roll, bad things will likely happen. Oh and certain people are immune to this feat.
So, wait. Why is it bad?
Your average sneak attack die increases from a 3.5 to a 3.67. It's not even an average of +1 damage until you're at eleventh level and have a 6d6, and it never reaches a total of +2 damage. A -2 attack penalty for less than a +2 damage bonus is a horrible exchange.
If you later spend a second talent to get Deadly Sneak (which isn't even possible until tenth level), your average sneak attack die increases from 3.5 to 4. When you get your 10d6 sneak attack at nineteenth level, that's a +5 to damage for a -2 to hit, which wouldn't be a terrible trade if you received it for free. But at the cost of two talents, being forced to wait until endgame levels to get that kind of bonus, and taking into account that rogues already have trouble hitting? It's still not very good.
But whereas Deadly Sneak is merely not very good, Powerful Sneak is actually useless, since using it makes you deal less damage.
I see this feat as very useful if you get multiple standard actions. Call in the Time Stop!
You can't affect/attack creatures while time stopped, so it would only serve to waste one of your time stop rounds, diminishing the usefulness of a 9th level spell. This only makes it look even worse.
Just houserule away the -2 penalty to hit. It's still less of a damage boost than Weapon Specialization, so it's not treading on the fighter's turf.
How is Elephant Stomp helping here? Seriously, explain it. ES requires forgoing every benefit of the overrun, both the knocking prone and the moving through the victim's space. And it requires you yourself to be the one that made the overrun attempt. I'm guessing you mean in tandem with the Trample feat.
I declare mounted charge and overrun, I hit the target with my weapon and my mount hits with it's natural weapon, if I beat the overrun by 5 or more I can stop and my mount can hit the guy with it's main natural weapon AGAIN at NO PENALTY.
vs Trample where your mount gets to attack with a foot for a small amount of damage with a +4 to hit and knocking the guy prone
Either way I get 3 attacks, one results with the enemy receiving a status penalty, while the other results in more damage done
As I said, it's not GOOD, but it's not BAD either. I use it all the time with my Rhino riding Cavalier
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If you're using Overrun, you don't get your normal melee attack.
So, "I declare mounted charge and overrun, I hit the target with my weapon and my mount hits with it's natural weapon" doesn't happen. One of you two is *not* hitting with your weapon for damage.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.
You don't get the Overrun AND the charge attack.
If you're using Overrun, you don't get your normal melee attack.
So, "I declare mounted charge and overrun, I hit the target with my weapon and my mount hits with it's natural weapon" doesn't happen. One of you two is *not* hitting with your weapon for damage.
** spoiler omitted **
You don't get the Overrun AND the charge attack.
where in that does it say I CAN'T hit the target? as RAW I can do charge attack damage AND Overrun
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Smell Fear: Tangible benefit that NEVER comes up.
Theurgy: If you were going to take advantage of this feat you'd plan be a Mystic Theurge (which gains much the same ability) (Is Mystic theurge the worst class?)
Toppling Spell: It's a trap feat. The higher your level, the weaker it gets - and it doesn't start out strong.
Channelled Revival: Poor wording means the cleric has to be 5' away from the character that dropped to use this feat, which is very unlikely.
Deadly Finish: When does this ever need to get used? Just coup-de-gras once all opponents have dropped.
Sorcerous Strike: This feat does nothing. Any character can deliver a touch spell through a melee attack, they just target normal AC instead of touch AC.
This thread almost makes me want to go from being a RAW guy to a RAI guy.
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I'll prefer being a DM of mixed RAW and RAI heritage.
The problem is that it's hard to figure out the RAI for some of these feats. Some of them it's easy; Monkey Lunge seems to be "That -2 AC penalty from Lunge doesn't exist when you use a standard action to attack". And Diehard clearly shouldn't let nonlethal damage knock you out. But it's not always so simple. Prone Shooter is clearly supposed to make it easier to shoot while prone... but how much easier? Should it give a +2 bonus to attack rolls while prone? Or allow shooting while prone without provoking attacks of opportunity? It's not just worded poorly like Diehard - its actual function is unclear.
Here's my solution for Prone Shoo-
...what? I've never heard of that feat.
Well there's also that.
That's true of most of these Worst Feats Ever - nobody cares about them so nobody has any interest in fixing them. I think Powerful Sneak is the only one that sees any use, mainly because it's a newbie trap that looks shiny, so it draws in new players who don't realize how painful that -2 to hit is.