Worst feat ever

[Nicos]

I think this feat have been discused before, but does somebody know a worse feat than

Monkey Lunge (Combat)
Paizo Peripheral

This content is from material published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, but is not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.
You can quickly recover from your lunges, helping you to avoid counterattacks.
Prerequisites: Lunge, Acrobatics 1 rank.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can use the Lunge feat to increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn, without suffering a penalty to your AC. You cannot use this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load.

Normal: You take a -2 penalty to your AC until your next turn when making a lunge attack.

[Kitsune Knight]

Prone Shooter

At least Monky Lunge eliminates a penalty that actually exists.

[Nicos]

Kitsune Knight wrote:

Prone Shooter

At least Monky Lunge eliminates a penalty that actually exists.

good try but no. Prone shooter do nothing but a least does not impede you in any way. Monkey lunge is a standar action to waste your turn.

[Ciaran Barnes]

Skill Focus: Profession (Lackey)

Unless you have a lackey hireling, and he gets the feat.

[TheRonin]

Does Monkey Lunge have a use? Was it a misprint somewhere? is there an improved monkey lunge?

[Starcoffin]

How is Monkey Lunge a bad feat? Hardly does it waste your turn. I could see great use with a pole arm and combat expertise to keep yourself away and still to a bit of damage against a boss-like opponent.

[TriOmegaZero]

...because you don't have an action to make an attack with?

[Tarondor]

Starcoffin:

It takes a standard action to use the feat. You haven't attacked yet, just increased your threat range. And now all you have left is a move action.

The only way this feat is useful is with attacks of opportunity...and they're the only kind of attacks you can make.

BAD FEAT!

[Ravingdork]

It doesn't even really work for attacks of opportunity, since it ends AT THE END OF YOUR TURN. Most things that provoke attacks of opportunity from you are traditionally made on other peoples' turns.

Still, there are worse ones out there:

Weapon Specialization (net)

;P

[Starcoffin]

Wow... after re-reading it, I see what you mean. I just mentally added something along the lines as "As a standard action, you can give your weapon reach and swing once" kinda deal... wow... I hope that was errated...

[Starcoffin]

ninja'd

[Nicos]

Tarondor wrote:

Starcoffin:

It takes a standard action to use the feat. You haven't attacked yet, just increased your threat range. And now all you have left is a move action.

The only way this feat is useful is with attacks of opportunity...and they're the only kind of attacks you can make.

BAD FEAT!

sadly no. The benefits of the feast only last until the end of your turn.

EDIT: also ninja`d by RD.

[Harrison]

Damn. Monkey Lunge is as worthless as Prone Shooter.

[Harark]

I see this feat as very useful if you get multiple standard actions. Call in the Time Stop!

[Bearded Ben]

At 12th level a monk of the four winds can spend 6 ki for 3 standard actions - monkey lunge is still totally not worth a feat, though.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Skill Focus: Profession (Lackey)

Unless you have a lackey hireling, and he gets the feat.

Skill Focus: Profession (Lackey) is worth 1.5 gp per week of lackeying (not sure exactly what it's worth for PFS Day Job rolls), not to mention giving you a bonus to answering questions about lackeying. Sure, most traits are probably better than it, but it has some value.

[Benly]

Monkey Lunge can theoretically be used to get a benefit, albeit a small one. Aside from situations where you have extra standard actions somehow, consider a situation where you are ten feet away from an enemy who has readied an action to cast a spell requiring an attack roll on you as soon as you move - Scorching Ray, let's say, and you don't have many HP left. With your standard action, you use Monkey Lunge to extend your reach until the end of your turn. Now you threaten him when you move, and he must cast defensively or take an AoO. At the same time, you have avoided taking a -2 AC penalty in case the spell does go off, making it slightly less likely that he will hit you with the spell.

Not that it would ever happen, because seriously, who would take a feat that requires such a convoluted situation to be useful?

[Epic Meepo]

This feat is entirely dependent upon the meaning of the undefined phrase, "lunge attack." If "lunge attack" is being used here because activating Lunge is supposed to be a part of making one or more attacks, then Monkey Lunge does allow you to attack, since "using Lunge" would mean making an attack and choosing, before rolling, to apply the benefits of Lunge, all rolled into one "use Lunge" action.

I'm assuming that's the intent of the rules, here. But the actual wording isn't terribly clear, since Lunge doesn't define "lunge attacks."

[Ciaran Barnes]

Bearded Ben wrote:

At 12th level a monk of the four winds can spend 6 ki for 3 standard actions - monkey lunge is still totally not worth a feat, though.

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Skill Focus: Profession (Lackey)

Unless you have a lackey hireling, and he gets the feat.

Skill Focus: Profession (Lackey) is worth 1.5 gp per week of lackeying (not sure exactly what it's worth for PFS Day Job rolls), not to mention giving you a bonus to answering questions about lackeying. Sure, most traits are probably better than it, but it has some value.

I will agree in that it is very useful for my lackey, whom performs tasks such as cleaning, fetching, and cooking. The difference between successfully laundering with a DC 10 and a DC 15 is noticeable with even a DC 5 Perception check where is concerns an ironed shirt.

[StreamOfTheSky]

We've had this sort of thread before, but if we're starting anew, I really must put forth Elephant Stomp as the worst feat in the game.

Monkey Lunge is also pretty bad. Prone Shooter merely does nothing. In order to be the worst feat, the feat has to either make you worse off than before or be such that using it is worse than your typical options.

[Nicos]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

We've had this sort of thread before, but if we're starting anew, I really must put forth Elephant Stomp as the worst feat in the game.

Monkey Lunge is also pretty bad. Prone Shooter merely does nothing. In order to be the worst feat, the feat has to either make you worse off than before or be such that using it is worse than your typical options.

wow that is an awful feat but at least let you attack ;)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Nicos wrote:

...but at least let you attack ;)

I say the same thing when an NPC wizard dominates me into turning on the party! :)

[Nicos]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Nicos wrote:

...but at least let you attack ;)

I say the same thing when an NPC wizard dominates me into turning on the party! :)

it is the fist time i read about that feat. it seems like it let yo attack twice after move.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Except that's not what it does at all.

That might be what the intent was. As written, you make an overrun check, win it by a wide margin, choose to not move or inflict the overrun (ie, make them prone) and then make a single melee attack with a restricted choice of weapons, in return for burning your immediate action!

Instead of just attacking to begin with.

[Nicos]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Except that's not what it does at all.

That might be what the intent was. As written, you make an overrun check, win it by a wide margin, choose to not move or inflict the overrun (ie, make them prone) and then make a single melee attack with a restricted choice of weapons, in return for burning your immediate action!

Instead of just attacking to begin with.

what happens to the standar action? i believe overrun is just a part of the movement.

[TriOmegaZero]

Overrun wrote:

As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.

[Andrea1]

Profession: Lackey can also help a lackey not duie by remembering lines from 'If I am a lackey of an Evil Overlord' ;)

[Nicos]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Overrun wrote:

As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.

Then elephant stomp is a strong candidate to the worst feat ever.

[Benly]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

We've had this sort of thread before, but if we're starting anew, I really must put forth Elephant Stomp as the worst feat in the game.

Monkey Lunge is also pretty bad. Prone Shooter merely does nothing. In order to be the worst feat, the feat has to either make you worse off than before or be such that using it is worse than your typical options.

I don't know. To be worse than Prone Shooter, a feat has to be worse than no feat at all. By definition, this doesn't apply to any feat you can choose not to use - it is, at worst, as bad as Prone Shooter. By establishing that there is an incredibly niche and unlikely situation in which Monkey Lunge has a beneficial effect, it is established to be better than Prone Shooter, because you can choose not to use it when it has no beneficial effect and there is a situation in which you can benefit from it.

I can't think of a situation in which Elephant Stomp is better than no feat, but at worst that makes it as bad as Prone Shooter - you never have to use it, so it's just a dead feat.

[Mergy]

It's not technically a feat, but the rogue talent Powerful Sneak should be in the running.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Benly: You mean it's at best equal to prone shooter. If you don't use it ever, it's =. If you do use it, it's much worse.

That said, newbs aren't as well versed in how things work as us, and the expectation is that you want to use your feat, it'll help you. So ES is a trap. So even though you can choose not to use it, I think the trap aspect still makes it worse than prone shooter.

...Are there actually feats that 24/7 make you worse off, that have no sort of "activation" at all?

Mergy: Definitely. It lowers your damage output, but w/o running the math, you'd never realize it.

[Benly]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Benly: You mean it's at best equal to prone shooter. If you don't use it ever, it's =. If you do use it, it's much worse.

That said, newbs aren't as well versed in how things work as us, and the expectation is that you want to use your feat, it'll help you. So ES is a trap. So even though you can choose not to use it, I think the trap aspect still makes it worse than prone shooter.

...Are there actually feats that 24/7 make you worse off, that have no sort of "activation" at all?

Mergy: Definitely. It lowers your damage output, but w/o running the math, you'd never realize it.

I think that for purposes of evaluating whether a feat is good or bad, we have to assume it's intelligently used. For a bit of an extreme example, Elemental Channel will improve the effect of channeling energy in a few situations and render it entirely ineffective in others. If we assume that the feat is not used intelligently, you could say that Elemental Channel is a feat that is worse than not having it, because if you use it unintelligently your channeling will frequently do nothing.

Used intelligently, and assuming there is no situation in which it is beneficial (I can think of some but they rely on effects which don't specifically match any published spell or creature), Elephant Stomp is equivalent to no feat. I don't know of any feats which, used intelligently, are still worse than no feat at all, but they're not hard to postulate.

edit: That said, I agree that Elephant stomp is a trap. The "used intelligently" bit is just with regard to the Worst Feat Ever Olympics. :)

[Nicos]

Benly wrote:

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Benly: You mean it's at best equal to prone shooter. If you don't use it ever, it's =. If you do use it, it's much worse.

That said, newbs aren't as well versed in how things work as us, and the expectation is that you want to use your feat, it'll help you. So ES is a trap. So even though you can choose not to use it, I think the trap aspect still makes it worse than prone shooter.

...Are there actually feats that 24/7 make you worse off, that have no sort of "activation" at all?

Mergy: Definitely. It lowers your damage output, but w/o running the math, you'd never realize it.

I think that for purposes of evaluating whether a feat is good or bad, we have to assume it's intelligently used. For a bit of an extreme example, Elemental Channel will improve the effect of channeling energy in a few situations and render it entirely ineffective in others. If we assume that the feat is not used intelligently, you could say that Elemental Channel is a feat that is worse than not having it, because if you use it unintelligently your channeling will frequently do nothing.

Used intelligently, and assuming there is no situation in which it is beneficial (I can think of some but they rely on effects which don't specifically match any published spell or creature), Elephant Stomp is equivalent to no feat. I don't know of any feats which, used intelligently, are still worse than no feat at all, but they're not hard to postulate.

edit: That said, I agree that Elephant stomp is a trap. The "used intelligently" bit is just with regard to the Worst Feat Ever Olympics. :)

I agree with stream. Prone shooter in the best circumtance does nothing and in the worst circumstances still does nothing.

monkey lunge and elephant stomp can actually make you worse.

[Roberta Yang]

Anyone who thinks Elephant Stomp is worth taking probably isn't using it intelligently.

[Toadkiller Dog]

I'd very much like to hear devs' response to these feats. How in the nine hells did they manage to get into print? Ok, I can imagine that whoever made up Prone Shooter didn't know that there isn't a mechanical benefit to it, which is an error of omission, but to actually think of a feat that makes you worse is a different thing entirely. Why would someone with so little knowledge of the system be allowed to make feats? And why wasn't that double-checked?

It boggles me how anyone who read that feat during the writing of Sargava, the Lost Colony didn't recognize the uselessness of it.

[Icyshadow]

I remember the days when Toughness (back in 3.5e) was the worst feat ever.

Kind of funny to see how very different the worst feat in Pathfinder (Elephant Stomp) is in comparison.

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

Tarondor wrote:

Starcoffin:

It takes a standard action to use the feat. You haven't attacked yet, just increased your threat range. And now all you have left is a move action.

The only way this feat is useful is with attacks of opportunity...and they're the only kind of attacks you can make.

BAD FEAT!

Sorry if this was mentioned before, but....

There is one problem with that "until the end of your turn"

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

Toadkiller Dog wrote:

I'd very much like to hear devs' response to these feats. How in the nine hells did they manage to get into print? Ok, I can imagine that whoever made up Prone Shooter didn't know that there isn't a mechanical benefit to it, which is an error of omission, but to actually think of a feat that makes you worse is a different thing entirely. Why would someone with so little knowledge of the system be allowed to make feats? And why wasn't that double-checked?

It boggles me how anyone who read that feat during the writing of Sargava, the Lost Colony didn't recognize the uselessness of it.

It is clear to me. The dev's first response to any feat is "How can we add an action type to this to reduce its power?" They move down the list from full round, to standard, to move, and then to swift. Sometimes swift before move actions for casters. Find which one gives the least functionality while still being functional.

One of the first things the devs did when Pathfinder was being made was an attempt to Nerf feats, specifically "Combat Feats", trying to simplify the rules by making a large quantity of feats require actions. Personally this design concept/tactic was not my a favorite of mine.

So in this case, they accidentally stopped at step 1, standard action, and forgot it was actually supposed to be one of the other 3. Considering how much they seem to judge/hate reach, I would say this is supposed to be a move action.

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

We've had this sort of thread before, but if we're starting anew, I really must put forth Elephant Stomp as the worst feat in the game.

Monkey Lunge is also pretty bad. Prone Shooter merely does nothing. In order to be the worst feat, the feat has to either make you worse off than before or be such that using it is worse than your typical options.

I don't understand how using Elephant stop is a worse option than what you had?

With Monkey Lunge no only does it do nothing, but if you attempt to use it you use up all but your move and swift action.

[Noir le Lotus]

Nicos wrote:

monkey lunge and elephant stomp can actually make you worse.

There is a much worse feat than those 2 :

Death or Glory !!

The feat that helps your enemy kill you.

[AdAstraGames]

So, can we get a sample build that uses all three of these feats? Let's see if we can make a 20 level fighter with NOTHING but the worst feats in the game...

[Hoplophobia]

AdAstraGames wrote:

So, can we get a sample build that uses all three of these feats? Let's see if we can make a 20 level fighter with NOTHING but the worst feats in the game...

Make it so, number one.

[Sloanzilla]

these are good ones. I opened this thread planning to suggest the new gnome feet that lets a gnome get back his ability to talk to pouched animals, but that still is a very, very slight plus on the useful side.

[Nipin]

Monkey Lunge could be used for an a defensive build focusing on AoOs to hamper enemy movement. If all i want to do is stand in this door and irritate the crap out of everything, Monkey Lunge.

[TriOmegaZero]

How do you get AoOs if your reach goes away before the enemy acts?

[Pol Mordreth]

Nipin, no. As stated above it ends when your turn ends. therefore it doesn't count for AoO's.

[Mergy]

Nipin wrote:

Monkey Lunge could be used for an a defensive build focusing on AoOs to hamper enemy movement. If all i want to do is stand in this door and irritate the crap out of everything, Monkey Lunge.

Except Lunge doesn't work on other people's turns. So you wasted a Standard action to remove the penalty for something you didn't do.

Actually, hold on, you have irritated me. So mission accomplished! :P

[Are]

Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

I don't understand how using Elephant stop is a worse option than what you had?

The only reason to activate Elephant Stomp is if you want to attack the person.

But if you use Elephant Stomp, you first have to beat the overrun DC by 5 in order to do that, plus you only get to use a limited selection of weapons.

If you don't use Elephant Stomp, then you're able to attack without needing to beat any overrun DC, plus you can do so with any weapon.

***

I think that the original intent of Elephant Stomp might have been a very different one: If it was instead intended to let you have an attack as an immediate action if you failed the overrun attempt by 5 or less, then it would be a quite useful feat.

[Ragnarok Aeon]

Hmm, can we get a list somewhere of these trap feats?

[Epic Meepo]

I still think Monkey Lunge allows you to attack, because it says it lets you "use Lunge" as a standard action. If you activate Lunge but don't attack at least once, you still haven't yet "used" the benefits of Lunge. It's poor wording and a lame benefit, but I do think it lets you attack.

Elephant Stomp and Prone Shooter, on the other hand...