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It does by RAW, as much as it shouldn't, at the moment it does. It shouldn't, as one is a "armor" enchant(bashing on the shield) and one is "enchanted as a weapon"(the shield spikes are a separate weapon).
And use Lead Blades on the shield, to get even more stupid, just like you can lead blade and enlarge person stack on a greatsword AFAIK(greatsword is a bad example, lets go Dw Waraxe 1d10->2d8->3d8).
I actually have the spiked armor, spiked shield bashing, spiked destroyer, brawler archetype, dwarven fighter of Gorum in play at the moment in PFS. Although I hadn't really done the numbers on the damage when I built him, I love the older editions of DnD's dwarven battlerager fluff, he's goin barb later on in his life to reflect this.
RAW It is a 2d6 weapon with a free bullrush for 2 feats and 4200g. I'm personally saving up to get a 7350 adamantine version before I buy it, but that's cause I don't like hardness/DR getting in the way. And with the third feat, Shield Master, it'll count as a +5 weapon that gives +7 AC for 28500g or so.(adamantine, 3k bought as weapon, ~same weight as a greataxe, so it should cost the same IMO) At 1 level to retirement in PFS, not really cheesy anymore.
Well, here is the post in question I was talking about.
Once you have 11 BAB you can invalidate that requirement with Shield Master.
Well, that answers my question. I was going to ask if it was possible to give a shield both a weapon and an armor enhancement bonus, but with that feat, there's no need.
That said, I'm pretty sure that TWF is PFS legal, so there's that to bring up as well.
I love the haters out there that believe that just because it isn't well known, (by them) or because not many people practice it (hard to master), that something isn't a viable and effect martial art. Maybe, those who actually do master two shield fighting in real life are a lot more effective in combat than someone else, and its art form is actually limited because it is only for those who have the possible patience and skill to master a superior fighting style. There is no reason to bash someone else's culture of which you have absolutely no clue about with actually doing some research into it. I definitely think that a female wearing a metal beard is pretty hot!
I love the haters out there that believe that just because it isn't well known, (by them) or because not many people practice it (hard to master), that something isn't a viable and effect martial art. Maybe, those who actually do master two shield fighting in real life are a lot more effective in combat than someone else, and its art form is actually limited because it is only for those who have the possible patience and skill to master a superior fighting style. There is no reason to bash someone else's culture of which you have absolutely no clue about with actually doing some research into it. I definitely think that a female wearing a metal beard is pretty hot!
I didn't bash anybodies culture. I simply stated that it, the two shield style in the video, is not a widespread or popular martial art, then or now. The very limited evidence for it as well as it's lack of spread is pretty solid evidence for that. If it was a "superior fighting style" to more conventional martial arts people would take the time to learn and master it. When your life is at stake (as historically it would have been), time isn't that important. Nitokenjutsu, for example, isn't a simple art, but Mushashi's success (winning 69 mortal duels iirc) certainly made it viable and visible. He established his own school, other styles were developed along similar lines; the premier school of Bujutsu in Japan today, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, teaches a 2 sword style. I would say it takes time and effort to master, or just study, any martial art. While there are certainly cultural and historical reasons for some arts to be more popular, in the end effectivness is king. I do admit that some styles don't transmit effectively, Jeet Kun Do (? spelling) for example. Bruce Lee was a superior martial artist but his style was so personal, and to an extent, based on his own physical abilities that it hasn't become as widespread as one might have expected given his popularity. All imo, of course. As for the metal beard... maybe for dwarves :)
Reminds me of the good old dwarven buckler axes.
Take shield related feats and go to town.
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What bothers me is not that it is effective in the game, but that it is so much better than TWF with weapons!
No attack penalties for TWF, automatic bull rush without provoking AoOs on every hit, effective 'weapon' enhancement for the price of shield enhancement, still gets shield bonus to AC!
Where are the feats that let you fight with two proper weapons? Feats that completely eliminate the TWF attack penalty even with a non light weapon in your off hand. That let's you do combat manoeuvre with each hit without provoking. I can't even think of an equivalent to half price magic weapons. Maybe 'treat your off-hand weapon as if it had the same magical enhancement bonus as your primary weapon'. Maybe 'treat the magical weapon enhancement bonus on your off-hand weapon as if it were also a shield bonus to AC'.
Do these imaginary feats seem overpowered? If they existed it would still not be as good as Shield Master.
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You will still have a lower DPR than many other two weapon fighting builds.
You may have a slightly higher AC, but AC is, more or less, meaningless at higher levels.
Being focused on that one feat seems to blind many to the numbers.
If you have your nose to the map, you will have no idea where you are.
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A heavy shield does 1d4 damage, a longsword deals 1d8, a greatsword 2d6. Average damage for each is 2.5, 4.5, 7.
As a fraction of the damage dealt, 1d4+20 (or 22.5 average) isn't so much worse than 1d8+20 (24.5) or 2d6+20 (27).
Shields do less damage, but not so much that this disadvantage outweighs the advantages of Shield Master.
I know you're looking for a 'big hit build', and twin shields is not that. But it's more effective overall.
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Yes you can, but you wil earn the enmity of many.
And for added cheese, get the Dual-Style Ranger archetype from the Expanded Spell-less Ranger 3PP book and choose the Two-weapon and Weapon and Shield styles.
At 2nd-level, you get TWF and Improved Shield Bash. At 6th-level, you get Improved TWF and Shield Master and you're a combat monster.
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I'll use more precise language.
I'm not saying that this is the most powerful possible melee build. I am saying that the Shield Master feat means that when building a two-weapon fighter and deciding which weapons to use when TWFing, using two heavy shields is far better than any other weapon choice.
Take a character of level 13 who wants to optimise TWF. Every character gets feats at odd levels, which gives at least 7 feats. TWF, ImpTWF, GreaterTWF, Dual slice, Imp Shield Bash, Shield Slam, Shield Master. Every attack is a free bull rush on top of the damage. No attack penalty. Both shields are enchanted to the max.
Compare this to any other TWF build using any weapons that aren't also shields. Other weapons will do slightly more damage, but still won't compare to the Shield Master.
Where are the feats for TWF that don't require shields that are that good?
As I noted in the other post, you are using an extremely restrictive definition of 'another weapon'.
Standard definition is 'another weapon' = a second weapon. You are trying to say it means 'any second weapon except for another shield.'
This falls down because shields are also weapons, and there's no language excluding another shield as the other weapon.
Furthermore, feats are applied per weapon, not per wielding. Weapon Spec gives you +2 to damage when wielding a longsword. So, you don't get the benefit if you wield 2 longswords?
No, the feat is applied independently to each longsword. Ditto, Shield Mastery is applied independently to each shield.
==Aelryinth
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Weapon specialization uses the wording "the selected weapon" you are specialized with the long sword not a long sword. Feats and class features that denote a "weapon" only apply to that weapon and if you lose that one weapon you have to do specific things to replace said weapon.
If fighting with 2 shields yes on of them is another weapon or you can say both are another weapon but the feat still only allows for the reduction on penalties to "A" one shield.
You've got to be kidding.
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That +2 hardly seems a game breaker.
It wouldn't be. If Shield Master just said 'Reduce TWF penalties by 2 when attacking with a shield' then there would be no problem.
It makes it 'zero penalty', even if the penalty would be -4. It also allows you to have two +5 weapons for 50k, when it should be 100k, and you still get a +7 shield bonus to AC. All this alongside a free bull rush per attack. That's a long way from 'That +2 hardly seems a game breaker'!
Also, the wording of the feat does not limit it to one shield, any more than Weapon Specialisation only applying to one of the two short swords you're wielding.
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Because I'm not a RAW munchkin who is happy enough to destroy verisimilitude and flavor just to take advantage of a corner rule.Once you get your head around this, why would you choose any other TWF combination?
That makes two of us.
I'm not celebrating this feat, nor looking to take advantage of it. I'm pointing out that it is broken! It needs fixing.
No weapon combination should be so clearly superior than the rest in the rules.
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How the heck would Weapon Focus(Longsword), and Weapon Specialization(Longsword), apply to one Longsword, but not the other?
If I have those feats, I can pick up any Longsword, and they will apply.
That's right, every single Longsword, even if it's inappropriately sized, or broken, or made of some odd material.
All of them.
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That +2 hardly seems a game breaker.It wouldn't be. If Shield Master just said 'Reduce TWF penalties by 2 when attacking with a shield' then there would be no problem.
It makes it 'zero penalty', even if the penalty would be -4. It also allows you to have two +5 weapons for 50k, when it should be 100k, and you still get a +7 shield bonus to AC. All this alongside a free bull rush per attack. That's a long way from 'That +2 hardly seems a game breaker'!
Also, the wording of the feat does not limit it to one shield, any more than Weapon Specialisation only applying to one of the two short swords you're wielding.
Don't forget that you can take your Weapon Training: Close, and all your weapon focus and weapon specialization feats to get an aditional +7 to hit with both shields and +9 to damage.
Don't forget that you can take your Weapon Training: Close, and all your weapon focus and weapon specialization feats to get an aditional +7 to hit with both shields and +9 to damage.That +2 hardly seems a game breaker.It wouldn't be. If Shield Master just said 'Reduce TWF penalties by 2 when attacking with a shield' then there would be no problem.
It makes it 'zero penalty', even if the penalty would be -4. It also allows you to have two +5 weapons for 50k, when it should be 100k, and you still get a +7 shield bonus to AC. All this alongside a free bull rush per attack. That's a long way from 'That +2 hardly seems a game breaker'!
Also, the wording of the feat does not limit it to one shield, any more than Weapon Specialisation only applying to one of the two short swords you're wielding.
There's definitely great incentive to do it, but it's ultra feat intensive, and you lose out on the wonders of a 15-20 critical, which standard two-weapon fighting will give you. You also lose out on a lot of cool potential weapon enhancements, which shields, not being weapons, can't actually have.
It has some wonderful advantages, but I'd be hard pressed to call it better.
aCTUALLY, you can put any weapon enchantment onto a shield that you could onto a normal weapon. Shields don't miss out on any of that.
The kicker is the COST. A +10/+10 Shield is 300k. If you make it yourself, 150k. 2 of em is going to eat up so much of your money you're going to wonder if you made the right choice.
So, you never have the joy of maxing out your shields, because it costs too much. Which, in the end, is just as it should be.
==Aelryinth
Don't forget that you can take your Weapon Training: Close, and all your weapon focus and weapon specialization feats to get an aditional +7 to hit with both shields and +9 to damage.That +2 hardly seems a game breaker.It wouldn't be. If Shield Master just said 'Reduce TWF penalties by 2 when attacking with a shield' then there would be no problem.
It makes it 'zero penalty', even if the penalty would be -4. It also allows you to have two +5 weapons for 50k, when it should be 100k, and you still get a +7 shield bonus to AC. All this alongside a free bull rush per attack. That's a long way from 'That +2 hardly seems a game breaker'!
Also, the wording of the feat does not limit it to one shield, any more than Weapon Specialisation only applying to one of the two short swords you're wielding.
That would be +6/+8 :) +4 WM, +2/+4 GWS. Add Gloves of Dueling for +2/+2.
==Aelryinth
All this alongside a free bull rush per attack.
It is worth pointing out that in a large number of cases you will accomplish nothing with this free bull rush other than robbing yourself of a full attack.
Also, on optimization:
Every party is different of course and will have different optimization requirements. From a pure optimization standpoint... no, under most circumstances I would not consider trading 15-20 crit threat on eight attacks for 19-20 crit threat on eight attacks to be worth gaining a 7 point shield bonus to AC. Especially at high level - which it would have to be, because for most of his career, prior to Shield Master, a two heavy shield fighter would suck horribly.
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How the heck would Weapon Focus(Longsword), and Weapon Specialization(Longsword), apply to one Longsword, but not the other?
If I have those feats, I can pick up any Longsword, and they will apply.
That's right, every single Longsword, even if it's inappropriately sized, or broken, or made of some odd material.
All of them.
Or two, and it will apply to both.
The Fighter could just claim that he has discovered a new style of fighting, and hopes it will be picked up by future generations after he proves how effective it is. Not all Fighters have an Intelligence score lower than 10 (except maybe for people who never roll their stats or who go for Combat Expertise), after all.
I think there is a little too much chatter over whether this is the most optimal build.
Imagine it this way:
Fighter is walking down the street wielding 2 shields and someone is like.
"Sir warrior, why do you wield those two great shields?"
"Because I can"
Lets start a thread with things that a two-shield fighter can not do efficiently :)
- Ride, climb, grapple
- Drink a potion or give a potion to an unconscious party member
- Catch a slope while falling or catch a falling party member
- Apply silver sheen/weapon blanch etc. to his weapon
- Open a door
- Do anything else other than fighting while holding his weapons
All in it sounds like a one trick pony and this kind of animals often smells like cheese.
I think there is a little too much chatter over whether this is the most optimal build.
Imagine it this way:
Fighter is walking down the street wielding 2 shields and someone is like.
"Sir warrior, why do you wield those two great shields?"
"Because I can"
Lets start a thread with things that a two-shield fighter can not do efficiently :)
- Ride, climb, grapple
- Drink a potion or give a potion to an unconscious party member
- Catch a slope while falling or catch a falling party member
- Apply silver sheen/weapon blanch etc. to his weapon
- Open a door
- Do anything else other than fighting while holding his weaponsAll in it sounds like a one trick pony and this kind of animals often smells like cheese.
Could a fighter wielding two shortswords or a longsword and a shortsword or a sword and board do those things more efficiently?
prototype00
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Well, the guy with the giant pointy metal beard strapped to his chin, carrying a 4 foot battle ladder gets not a eye batted at him.
Of course, that guy with two shields will send common folk into full on seizures due to the sheer ridiculous nature of such a thing.
In fact, those that don't convulse at sight of such a fellow, instead foam in rage, as the desire to kill such a man is uncontrollable.
The madness is not just present in the common man, animals, Angels, Demons, and even the Gods feel themselves driven mad with the desire to kill such a man.
So, lest madness spread across the planes, and the Gods the destroy all in the chaos, do not pick up that second shield.
Such is the act that sunders reality.
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I think there is a little too much chatter over whether this is the most optimal build.
Imagine it this way:
Fighter is walking down the street wielding 2 shields and someone is like.
"Sir warrior, why do you wield those two great shields?"
"Because I can"
Lets start a thread with things that a two-shield fighter can not do efficiently :)
- Ride, climb, grapple
- Drink a potion or give a potion to an unconscious party member
- Catch a slope while falling or catch a falling party member
- Apply silver sheen/weapon blanch etc. to his weapon
- Open a door
- Do anything else other than fighting while holding his weaponsAll in it sounds like a one trick pony and this kind of animals often smells like cheese.
Every sword and board fighter (unless they use a buckler) and every TWF and every 2H and every Archer has those problems as well...Basically the only people who don't have those problems are characters who only wield one weapon or no weapon.
Every sword and board fighter (unless they use a buckler) and every TWF and every 2H and every Archer has those problems as well...Basically the only people who don't have those problems are characters who only wield one weapon or no weapon.
Not really. With a two-handed weapon, you can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, drink a potion, and (with another free action) hold it two-handed again next time you want to attack.
With shields, taking them off and putting them back on normally requires move actions.Note though that with a light shield strapped to your arm, you have that hand free to do pretty much anything apart from attack.
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Every sword and board fighter (unless they use a buckler) and every TWF and every 2H and every Archer has those problems as well...Basically the only people who don't have those problems are characters who only wield one weapon or no weapon.Not really. With a two-handed weapon, you can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, drink a potion, and (with another free action) hold it two-handed again next time you want to attack.
With shields, taking them off and putting them back on normally requires move actions.Note though that with a light shield strapped to your arm, you have that hand free to do pretty much anything apart from attack.
Ok, point taken with the 2H weapons, but basically what I said is true. Any character who holds a weapon in each hand has those kinds of problems. And even then: "Oh, I drop my shield as a free action, drink a potion, and then retrieve my shield as a swift action using my weapon cord." So big deal.
aCTUALLY, you can put any weapon enchantment onto a shield that you could onto a normal weapon. Shields don't miss out on any of that.
The kicker is the COST. A +10/+10 Shield is 300k. If you make it yourself, 150k. 2 of em is going to eat up so much of your money you're going to wonder if you made the right choice.
So, you never have the joy of maxing out your shields, because it costs too much. Which, in the end, is just as it should be.
==Aelryinth
the price is even worse than that,
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.so best case you would be looking at 150,000 for shield +10, and 200,000 for weapon +10, as DM I would onestly charge the extra 50% to the weapon bonus which would make the +10 sheild +10 weapon 400,000
That rule is for items using slots.
Shields are both weapons and armor and don't get surcharged for being both.
So, it's bad, but it's not THAT bad.
Note also that you don't have to pay a surcharge for enchanting spiked armor, either.
=Aelryinth
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Sarcasm aside, BBT has a point.
How many feats does a dual shield wielder take to optimise? How many does a beard wielder take?
It just emphasizes the 'heroic' aspect of Pathfinder (even w/o epic/mythic rules). By 6th level you're (to most people) one of the great wonders of the world. That orge that tears through the militia? You barely break a sweat and are hardly hurt taking it down.
A 6th level barbarian with one rank in acrobatics and a 12 dex can take 20 and make the world record for a long jump. If he maxed out the ranks, he can break it on a take 20. (a 6th level monk with a 16 dex can take 10 and break the world record.) A 6th level rogue/ranger/anyone who maxes out the climb skill can free climb a cliff at full speed. 6th level maxed out escape artist can get out of shackles in two minutes (take 20 on a DC 30 roll) You can speak at least 7 languages with a 10 int, etc.
Wally Warrior is never going to be a shield master. Freddie fighter *can*, because he's the 'Big Damn Hero.'
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The only thing you could potentially compare to it is a high crit range weapon, like a scimitar. In which case you are giving up 25,000 gp per weapon (assuming +5), 2 points of attack, 8(!) points of AC, the ability to reflect missiles and rays, etc... for critting more often.
If you think that's a good trade, that's all you.
One way or the other, we play at a strictly no-cheese table, and this certainly falls into that category.
Tell This fellow it's cheese
Maasai bad ass.
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Well, the guy with the giant pointy metal beard strapped to his chin, carrying a 4 foot battle ladder gets not a eye batted at him.
Of course, that guy with two shields will send common folk into full on seizures due to the sheer ridiculous nature of such a thing.
In fact, those that don't convulse at sight of such a fellow, instead foam in rage, as the desire to kill such a man is uncontrollable.
The madness is not just present in the common man, animals, Angels, Demons, and even the Gods feel themselves driven mad with the desire to kill such a man.So, lest madness spread across the planes, and the Gods the destroy all in the chaos, do not pick up that second shield.
Such is the act that sunders reality.
In my campaigns, pretty much any martial weapon identifies you as a "man of arms"-- soldier, mercernary, or the like. Any exotic weapon draws raised eyebrows and looks of confusion-- surely he's not going to try to slay the zombie horde with THAT, is he? Why wouldn't he use a proper weapon?
Given those pictures somebody posted of a shield basically being a broad, flat spiked gauntlet, I'd say two shields would get the townsfolk to chuckle to themselves and say "Well, any battle you can walk away from, I suppose..."
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Like, can I wield a Heavy Steel shield in my main hand and a light steel shield in my off hand and TWF with them?
Absolutely. You'll only benefit from whichever shield gave the higher bonus to AC (or possibly neither if you're using them as weapons and don't have all the appropriate feats). Also, since it specifically says you can treat your light shield as a light weapon, you're good to go for all TWF penalties.
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Ok, point taken with the 2H weapons, but basically what I said is true. Any character who holds a weapon in each hand has those kinds of problems. And even then: "Oh, I drop my shield as a free action, drink a potion, and then retrieve my shield as a swift action using my weapon cord." So big deal.Every sword and board fighter (unless they use a buckler) and every TWF and every 2H and every Archer has those problems as well...Basically the only people who don't have those problems are characters who only wield one weapon or no weapon.Not really. With a two-handed weapon, you can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, drink a potion, and (with another free action) hold it two-handed again next time you want to attack.
With shields, taking them off and putting them back on normally requires move actions.Note though that with a light shield strapped to your arm, you have that hand free to do pretty much anything apart from attack.
You cannot "drop as a free action" Light and Heavy Shields. They're strapped on. It is a move action to remove them.