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Thanks Cheapy, very helpful link there!
Yep. They nerfed that ring almost immediately after it came out. It's kind of sad though, as the FAQ drastically reduces it's usage. They took a lot of great spells out just to prevent the time-stop cheese (and probably others that they saw).
It needed to be done. That ring was super crazy. The problem now is that it is just grossly overpriced for it's new level function. We still have our staff of the master metamagic fest cheese though as far as I can tell, so it's all good. ;) There are so many tricks for casters that losing even half a dozen just doesn't hurt their power.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Will this errata affect other archetype combos, like Urban Ranger/Guide? Rebuilding to remove the Guide would be easy, I just need to know whether I actually need to rebuild or not.Sure. Everyone with this specific build who wants to rebuild it to make sure they stay away from being nerfed in the future have until March 31 to do so.Lastly - If you have this build as a character, I would take Mike's warning to heart. You may end up with a character you just can't play.Indeed. You would have a character stacking two archetypes illegally for its entire career, with no options for rebuild. I would call that a retired character.
Mike, any chance you would allow rebuilds at this time?
TO get with the Clint vibe:
What you've got to ask yourself is this: is this archetype combo abusively cheesy, or is it a pleasant combinations of flavours? We'', whaddaya think, punk?
It makes sense for my character. He's a private eye, so he doesn't really have much of a connection with animals. He should probably be able to jimmy locks, though. The ranger is a dip from my gunslinger main, and I can't see why he would, in-world, have a favored enemy. It's much more justified if he's done his investigation that day to know his enemy's weak points by the end of the encounter.
Edit: Also, and please don't take this the wrong way, but it seems to me as if you're telling me that I have to guess whether or not someone else will think my build is "cheesy" and, if I'm wrong, my character is then illegal to play and I don't get a rebuild. That doesn't really sit well with me.
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The archetype combo is not being banned for cheese.
It isn't really being banned at all.
It never was legal.
There is an obvious misprint in Ultimate Combat on the Pistolero archetype, that by the strictest (and IMO irresponsible) RAW interpretation you can combine the two archetypes.
If you have two archetypes that are legally combined (as in you didn't realize a misprint allowed you to combine them when they otherwise would be illegal--i.e. the archetype forgot to tell you that it replaced something as the Pistolero did), then don't worry about it.
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What I will advise is it is a loophole that allows a very cheesy build. A large majority of people know it is a loophole. Do not be surprised when the loophole is closed through errata and we do not allow any type of rebuild. If you are abusing the combo now due to the loophole currently in place, do not complain when you do not get any form of rebuild what so ever in the future.
I'll spread the word!
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The answer right now is expect table variation. However, it won't fly at a lot of tables, and that includes mine. I've had to shut down a pistolero who wanted to apply both firearm training and pistol training to his damage, and even with only single Dexterity to damage, he still blew through encounters.
As the pistolero in question I'll admit that Adam was absolutely right in making this call and I have since elected to "self-errata" my damage down to a single application of DEX, whether are Adam's table or not. RAW or no, any gunslinger even remotely decently built can deal some serious damage without needing to double-up on the bonus.
To be fair, however, while I have indeed absolutely decimated what should have been difficult encounters I have also spent entire scenarios missing easy shots and breaking guns. The gunslinger has a very spiky and unreliable damage track and dice can be jerks.
To everyone saying "we know it's wrong": respectfully, no you don't. You suspect it is wrong and you are likely correct. I too suspect it is wrong and I was, admittedly, taking advantage of that when I built the character. Were I to start now from scratch I'd build her very differently.
Also, regarding applying more than one archetype to a character, the rules are pretty unambiguous. To whit: "characters may take more than one archetype as long as they meet the requirements."
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Hey now what?
I've had a Mysterious Stranger/Pistolero for quite a long time and it occurred to me today that they actually have this RAI conflict.
Whilst I'm ready to say that yes, Pistolero is broken as it is, I'm inclined to support the *combination* of Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero, which isn't 'cheesy' at all. In fact, Mysterious Stranger by itself is actually a very, very poor choice because of the lack of Quick Clear deed (which it basically gets back at 5th level) and gun training.
I dearly love this character and do not wish to rebuild it. I didn't realize it's a "loophole", and if I were to make it a simple Mysterious Stranger, well, it'd suck in combat. A lot. Seeing how the scenarios in Season 4 have gained a level in powercreep, I won't let my characters fall behind.
A bit off-topic, but I think all gunslingers should be more like the mysterious stranger archetype. Charisma-based, not wisdom-based.
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I don't use HeroLabs, actually oppose it. The thing is I didn't see it overpowering or gamebreaking, thus not a loophole. If a combination isn't superstrong or somehow ridiculous, I don't see it necessarily a loophole.
It might be that I somehow 'felt' that Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero belong together and didn't realize that a Pistolero alone would gain 'double dex'. I merely thought "Okay I get my dex to damage still", just like any other gunslinger. I'd happily give away the Mysterious Stranger's ability which replaces Gun Training.
I didn't see a problem RAW, so I made it. I understand there's a problem RAI, however. Still, I feel this is a design error more than anything else.
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While it does seem to me that pistol training should replace gun training, I cannot blame anyone that does not realize this.
Pathfinder is enormously rife with wierd combos that are legal. In the case of the Pistolero, I can understand if a player just follows the rules as written without questioning it, especially if he hasn't compared the ability to the Musket Master.
As someone who has been the "rules guy" for a nationally run living campaign, I fully understand that people and will interpret rules differently across the board. I early on made the firm commitment to never ever "blame" a player for using an abusive loophole. I left that loophole in place, it's MY damn fault, not the player's. Certainly, if I identifed a loophole that needed fixing, I'd fix it, and throw players who were affected a rebuild.
But I don't throw blame of recriminations around at anyone but myself, because I know the truth. In any system involving people, a significant percentage WILL take advantage of anything that will give them an edge. This is inevitable. It will always happen. There is no point in obsessing over it or pointing fingers. Just fix the damn problem and move on.
-j
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I don't use HeroLabs, actually oppose it. The thing is I didn't see it overpowering or gamebreaking, thus not a loophole. If a combination isn't superstrong or somehow ridiculous, I don't see it necessarily a loophole.
It might be that I somehow 'felt' that Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero belong together and didn't realize that a Pistolero alone would gain 'double dex'. I merely thought "Okay I get my dex to damage still", just like any other gunslinger. I'd happily give away the Mysterious Stranger's ability which replaces Gun Training.
I didn't see a problem RAW, so I made it. I understand there's a problem RAI, however. Still, I feel this is a design error more than anything else.
Whether it is a design error, a typo, or misprint...
If the two are mutually exclusive and one of the errors above allow them to work together... then its a loophole.
A loophole doesn't have to create an overpowered or game breaking character. To be considered a loophole, all it needs to do is allow something that the rules don’t allow, but for the mistake or error in editing.
So whether you were doing so maliciously (I believe you are innocent of this) or not, you were still taking advantage of a loophole (again, I’m not sure how one couldn’t consider that pistol training replaced gun training, and as such is mutually exclusive with another archetype that also replaces gun training).
It would behoove you to do your rebuild now, before March 31st, as Mike is allowing.
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You have two archetypes that don't work together, so just rebuild with one of them removed. Choose pistolero or mysterious stranger.Remove Mysterious Stranger and have fun with a negative wisdom modifier and no grit? Yeah sure. Obviously this just forces everyone to pick the Mysterious Stranger.
I'm pretty sure, based on precedent of how the rebuild options work when rules are changed, that you'd get to rebuild everything affected by such a change.
If you remove Mysterious Stranger, and now need Wisdom to use Grit, I'd assume that flopping Wisdom and Charisma would be acceptable.
Although this would make your character a lot less of a face than you originally intended I'm sure.
I would think that "rebuild" would include the ability to make other adjustments so the character is viable, not just the removal of the archetype. More or less rebuild the character as close to the original as possible, just adjust as if the removed archetype had never been part of the build.
-j
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You have two archetypes that don't work together, so just rebuild with one of them removed. Choose pistolero or mysterious stranger.Remove Mysterious Stranger and have fun with a negative wisdom modifier and no grit? Yeah sure. Obviously this just forces everyone to pick the Mysterious Stranger.
No more than "everyone" was forced to pick both archetypes to begin with.
Unless I've misread the earlier post anyone employing this combination to rebuild[ the character, not simply remove one of the offending archetypes. While I would not think this means a complete ground-up change as is allowed prior to 2nd level, I would imagine that rejigging stats as required to bring them in line with the revised version would be a given. So you could leave the WIS low and the CHA high and remain a Mysterious Stranger, or lose the high CHA and increase the WIS if opting for the Pistolero.
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Maybe I can live with him being just a Mysterious Stranger. Still, not realizing it's faulty and then ordered to fix it does make pretty much anyone sour up.
Sorry for the outcry. I just felt like a character I've grown fond of is forced to retirement. After some research I concluded that he can still gently prod people's behinds with a boot.
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There is nothing particularly wrong the the mysterious stranger. Ignoring misfires is powerful, and you can get your charisma to damage, which means you stack everything onto that one stat. Even if you're just removing pistolero, you should still be entitled to shuffling your stats around. Deadly Aim and the occasional grit point to get charisma to damage should mean you're still blasting faces off.
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I would assume the rebuilds are the same as 4.2(when a bunch of archetypes got banned)
If you have a character affected by the changes above, I am offering a rebuild along the following guidelines:You may rebuild any class levels affected, to levels of other classes as necessary. (For example, if you have a 10th-level character with one level of rogue and nine levels of the synthesist summoner archetype, you may rebuild the nine summoner levels into any other class or another summoner archetype).
You may retrain any feats that directly apply to the changes above as necessary.
You may sell affected equipment for the full price paid when you purchased them (as listed on past Chronicle sheets).
This gives you a lot of freedom for your rebuild and hopefully you'll still be able to make the class work as you intended.
If I am making an erroneous assumption that "rebuild" means the same thing it did a few months ago I apologize.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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What I will advise is it is a loophole that allows a very cheesy build. A large majority of people know it is a loophole. Do not be surprised when the loophole is closed through errata and we do not allow any type of rebuild. If you are abusing the combo now due to the loophole currently in place, do not complain when you do not get any form of rebuild what so ever in the future.
While this is not official errata, it might as well be as far as I am concerned. Thank you for chiming in Mike. I'll be dropping 1 archetype or the other. I only played him once anyway so its not a big deal for me.
Nope! UC hasn't had errata yet. Feel free to make a post in the rules questions forum about this, but try not to make it leading. The devs have been pretty active with the FAQs lately!
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That was FAQed a few days ago. It's 40'.
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Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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Sorry to jump into such an old thread, but perhaps not reading the other arguments adds a fresh set of eyes.
Both Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero alter the Deeds class feature - therefore, they cannot both be taken by the same character.
Of course, that still leaves open questions about the Pistolero - does Pistol Training stack with Gun Training? Is it intended to replace it? If so, why haven't they made this simple update?
Once again, they only release errata when they reprint books. Paizo has gotten very good at estimating the number of books to print so they don't have to reprint too often.
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In my humble opinion, a player character with a given class should have ONE and only ONE Archetype. If a player has more then one character class, then each class could have an Archetype, but NEVER more then one per character class -- even if each Archetype does not overlap in what is altered in the base class.
Sorry to jump into such an old thread, but perhaps not reading the other arguments adds a fresh set of eyes.
Both Mysterious Stranger and Pistolero alter the Deeds class feature - therefore, they cannot both be taken by the same character.
"Deeds" is not a class feature, it is a category of class features, the same way that "Bardic Performance" is a category of such.
Two Gunslinger archetypes would have to replace the same individual Deeds to not stack, the same way that two Bard archetypes would have to replace the same individual Bardic Performance.
Of course, that still leaves open questions about the Pistolero - does Pistol Training stack with Gun Training? Is it intended to replace it? If so, why haven't they made this simple update?
That is a good question. It's been nearly another half year since the thread started, and well into years, plural, since the issue started getting raised back in 2011.
-j
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Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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Two Gunslinger archetypes would have to replace the same individual Deeds to not stack, the same way that two Bard archetypes would have to replace the same individual Bardic Performance.
Is that just conjecture, or in an FAQ somewhere?
Cause, just looking at the PRD, 'Deeds' is the bolded name of the class feature...just like Gunsmith and Grit.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It seems to me that the problem isn't the combination of mysterious stranger and pistolero, since pretty much everyone seems to agree that it makes pistolero weaker rather than stronger. The problem is that pistolero is broken.
I assume that the reason it was written that way is that it was supposed to run along the same lines as pistolero gunsmith and pistolero weapon proficiency and pistolero starting weapon. Namely that none of them replace their gunslinger equivelents, they just can only chose pistol from the choices available. So no you don't get pistol training or gun training, and pistol training doesn't replace gun training. You just get gun training but can only pick pistol from the list of weapons. Just like you just get gunsmithing but can only pick pistol. (Or are you really telling me that you let pistoleros have gunsmithing *and* pistolero gunsmithing because it doesn't say that pistolero gunsmithing replaces gunsmithing.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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My point is that pistolero "pistol training" just modifies the gun training the same way that the gunsmithing entry under pistolero modifies gun smithing.
under the logic that says pistoleros get pistol training *and* gun training, pistoleros would get gun smithing with all guns and also gunsmithing just pistols, after all, the gunsmithing entry under pistolero doesn't say it replaces gunsmithing.
I did miss that they get a bonus damage bonus after every four levels.
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Wow, one of my very first posts on these forums and it's still going. I should be impressed.
And for the record, I ended up going with a Mysterious Stranger rather than Pistolero. And I can happily state that my character can kick butt quite well without having to add the Pistolero Archtype even if it proved legal.
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How could you not think this was a loophole?
I've effectively disallowed firearms from our long-running tabletop games (one is Greyhawk, one in Golarion), but finally decided to take the plunge into rolling up a gunslinger for PFS so I can readily judge them when the time eventually comes that I fail my Will save against my players.
I'm a highly experienced player savvy with all the rules save firearms (until recent efforts to address such).
First, and I know it's a terrible excuse, but let's start with the fact that HeroLab allows it.
Then, as a person rolling up a gunslinger you decide to check the FAQ and search the forums just to be sure.
This particular thread (the one where Mike B. says it's a "loophole") actually isn't one of the ones that comes up on top via Paizo's default "most relevant" sorting, and there's a half-dozen threads you can dig into where various folks recommend it, or leave it essentially in a grey area.
If I'm reading everything right, it seems it comes down to the Pistolero granting "Pistol Training" which folks believe is intended to replace Gun Training. And because the Mysterious Stranger also replaces Gun Training, the two archetypes wouldn't be stackable.
I absolutely don't believe that Pistol Training is meant to stack with Gun Training (i.e. double Dex to damage and that's how I'd houserule it), but I actually walked away from the forums thinking that the misprint was having Pistol Training exist at all in the Pistolero description. Effectively, the Pistolero's Pistol Training is just saying that for the gunslinger's base Gun Training that they should be choosing a one-handed firearm (i.e. a pistol) and not a two-handed firearm (i.e. a musket).
This really should be a FAQ item, especially with looming threats that should a character that combined both archetypes be in existence at a time when a FAQ ruling comes about, it would be disqualified (i.e. banned) because there's an inferred "loophole abuse" intent.
I could see going either way on how this becomes official:
1) Add "This ability replaces Gun Training" to the Pistolero's Pistol Training
2) Strike "Pistol Training" from the Pistolero completely, or a revised (non-Ex) Pistol Training is simply that the Pistolero must choose one-handed firearms/pistols when it acquires Gun Training from it's base gunslinger class, ignoring misfires at 13th. (EDIT: I see now this is less likely because of a precedent in Musketmaster mirroring Pistolero, but I guess you never know how the coin will land...)
Long story short - now that I've discovered this thread (which only happened when someone saw my character and pointed me to it; thankfully said PFS character was still level 1), I'm at least playing it safe and not combining these, but given that at least I fell into the trap of thinking it would likely be a safe decision, and am fairly actively engaged on the forums and up on rules, I can see how others may unknowingly fall into the same trap.
At the very least, a PFS ruling can be made on the Additional Resources page, even as we wait for an overarching FAQ ruling, no?
EDIT: sorry if this is necromancy, but:
From a purely Mathematical point of view:
Start with GS
Apply Pistolero:
Pistol Training is a SUBSET of Gun Training. i.e you still Have GT, but hyper-focused ONLY for pistols.
Apply M.S.:
MS replaces "BLAH" Training. That means Whatever training you had... is GONE.
I'd rule you could have both MS&P, but have to apply P first, then MS takes ANY training away...