Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Philosophically speaking, I want my players to weigh risk versus benefits, not get clobbered by bad dice rolls when they're playing well. Deciding to fire a broken or uncleared weapon is a risk, and if a character decides to chance it, then there we go. But firing a gun in good shape is what a Gunslinger ought to do. Destroying the weapon immediately doesn't help the game.
I agree with your philosophy 100%. I do not feel punitive rulings against players simply because the GM thinks they have an unbalanced character is good for the game. As a GM, I do understand the temptation, but that doesn't mean that giving into the temptation is good GMing.
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I would bet that the developers did not intend double-barreled muskets to be destroyed on a single shot like most people here are describing.
Your ruling would have the gun destroyed 8.25% of the time. A player could expect to get about 12 shots out of the thing. This works out to a little over 200 gp per shot.
That is assuming they are using regular bullets. A double-barreled musket loaded with paper cartridges would be destroyed 16% of the time. A player could expect to get about 6.25 shots out of it. This amounts to 400 gp per shot.
I believe your math is wrong, though I dont know the most about these guns.
Doublke barreled pistol has a 1-2 misfire. Paper cart adds 1 to that, so 1-3. A single barrel will misfire 15% of the time. Since we are needing both to misfire, that will only happen 15% of that 15% (.15), that means it would be destroyed 2.25% (0.0225).
The Musket has a 1-3, with paper cart making it 1-4. So a 20% chance. 20% of 20% is 4% (0.04).
Now, those percentages are still pretty high, but there are ways to help you avoid misfires (Slate Spider for one), and of course there are ways to get rerolls in this game.
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I would bet that the developers did not intend double-barreled muskets to be destroyed on a single shot like most people here are describing.
Your ruling would have the gun destroyed 8.25% of the time. A player could expect to get about 12 shots out of the thing. This works out to a little over 200 gp per shot.
That is assuming they are using regular bullets. A double-barreled musket loaded with paper cartridges would be destroyed 16% of the time. A player could expect to get about 6.25 shots out of it. This amounts to 400 gp per shot.
I believe your math is wrong, though I dont know the most about these guns.
Doublke barreled pistol has a 1-2 misfire. Paper cart adds 1 to that, so 1-3. A single barrel will misfire 15% of the time. Since we are needing both to misfire, that will only happen 15% of that 15% (.15), that means it would be destroyed 2.25% (0.0225).
The Musket has a 1-3, with paper cart making it 1-4. So a 20% chance. 20% of 20% is 4% (0.04).
Now, those percentages are still pretty high, but there are ways to help you avoid misfires (Slate Spider for one), and of course there are ways to get rerolls in this game.
You forgot that if there is a misfire, then the misfire range for subsequent shots increases by 4.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Well the one thing that's clear about all this is that the Mysterious Stranger and the Pistolero archetypes cannot be applied to the same character.
If I ever come upon a double-barrel firing gunslinger when I'm GMing, I'll have to ask them how they'd like it ruled and make a decision at that time. Without more RAW or developer information it doesn't look like there's much more to do here but express opinions on the subject.
Perhaps starting a rules thread is in order? Outside the PFS forum, of course.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I pity the 4th level character that just got enough gp/fame to purchase his first masterwork double-barrel weapon but didn't have enough to make it +1.
Related--I recommend to my players to upgrade defensive items in the earlier levels. The difference between a +1 sword and masterwork sword is just +1 damage in most cases. Having +1 to all your saves and AC nearly the same price is a much better deal.
I'd give the same advice to a fledgling gunslinger looking to invest in that first double-barreled pistol.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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My point is that at some point, some how, you are applying two misfire events to the gun. And the rule says that applying one breaks it, and that if a gun is broken and has a misfire applied it is wrecked or destroyed.
You are saying that if two damaging events happen simultaneously, you can ignore one of them. I don't agree.
I suppose I could see an argument that says that the gun is only destroyed if it is broken when the trigger is pulled, but I don't see any language for that.
Even then, you would still be applying two misfires to the gun, so the misfire chance would go up twice, and you would presumably have two clear both misfires, but it doesn't sound like you are even doing that. It sounds like you are saying "if two misfires occur, ignore one."
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Just a question, for perspective: a gunslinger is firing a double-barreled pistol. In round 1, she fires two shots, and gets 1 misfire. In round 2, she elects to "fire only from the clear barrel", loads one alchemical bundle into the firearm, and pulls the trigger. And rolls a "2".
Does that destroy the item, or rather does it "break" the second barrel?
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Just a question, for perspective: a gunslinger is firing a double-barreled pistol. In round 1, she fires two shots, and gets 1 misfire. In round 2, she elects to "fire only from the clear barrel", loads one alchemical bundle into the firearm, and pulls the trigger. And rolls a "2".
Does that destroy the item, or rather does it "break" the second barrel?
Either an item has the broken condition or it doesn't, right? One end of a double bladed sword can't be broken--either the whole thing is or it isn't. Following this logic, either the gun is broken or it isn't. One barrel can't fire without the -2 penalty and be treated as non-broken. There's no text to support this.
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Here's how I'd rule it, for lack of a definitive answer:
There doesn't appear to be any distinction between the two barrels. Either the gun is broken or it's not. So if you misfire with one barrel, the gun is broken. Using the other barrel still incurs the penalty and carries the risk of breaking the weapon.
When a firearm misfires, it gains the broken condition.
If both misfires are simultaneous, the firearm does not have the broken condition prior. So you end up with a gun that is broken. The "second" misfire doesn't matter. The gun doesn't get "double broken" (two barrels to clear) or destroyed, because RAW, neither misfire occurred on a broken gun.
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A double barrel pistol is not a double weapon, each barrel is not a separate weapon. If one barrel misfires the weapon is broken, not just that one barrel. If the second barrel misfires then the weapon is still wrecked or destroyed even if that wasn't the barrel that misfired before. Clearing the weapon clears both barrels. It only seems fair that a double barrel weapons that fires two shots at once would have both applied to make the weapon destroyed or wrecked.
That's my take at least, and the rules I followed for my Gunslinger.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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What I am saying is this. According to the rules, a gun is destroyed if it misfires while it has the broken condition. It two events occur simultaneously, regardless of what they are, that cause a gun to misfire, than by definition of the word, 'simultaneous' the gun cannot have the broken condition at the time of either misfire, ergo it is not destroyed, only broken. If the shots are not simultaneous, then the rules support the idea that you should be able stop the second attack based on the results of the first because all other cases in the rules where one attack occurs after the other allow you to do this. Since firing both barrels of the weapon must either be simultaneous or not simultaneous, then at the very least the gunslinger would get a choice of risking the second shot.
Even then, you would still be applying two misfires to the gun, so the misfire chance would go up twice, and you would presumably have two clear both misfires, but it doesn't sound like you are even doing that. It sounds like you are saying "if two misfires occur, ignore one."
I agree with the Fox that this is reasonable, though not really what the rules say. By the rules, the weapon gains the broken condition, not the barrels. Albeit, the barrels being broken has a certain amount of real world logic to it. Of course, if you rule the barrel is broken, then that would mean that a gunslinger could continue firing the second barrel safely if it too had not misfired.
For the record, when my gunslinger does have 2 simultaneous misfires, that is still two misfires for purposes of using my Stranger's Fortune if I want to avoid the effects of both misfires, because while the end result of a misfire and 2 simultaneous misfires may be the same, that doesn't mean I didn't have 2 misfires.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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You forgot that if there is a misfire, then the misfire range for subsequent shots increases by 4.
That is actually very strong evidence for my argument. Double misfires can only destroy a gun if they are not simultaneous. And if they are not simultaneous, them the misfire of one barrel should cause the second barrel to have a greater chance of misfiring because you are now using a broken weapon. So both shots should not be rolled simultaneously if this is the case and would thus be sequential shots which would allow the stopping of the sequence. So, again, either way, the gunslinger should have an out.
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I have to agree with Jeffrey Fox... it is a single weapon, that happens to have 2 barrels. I have ruled that way in the past, and will continue to rule this way until I see something official contradicting my ruling. However, both shots (if done simultaneously) are fired without the "broken" condition, but if both misfire, the gun is destroyed.
Think of it this way, there are a lot of things other than just the barrels that can break on an archaic gun. We tend to focus on the gun jamming being how it breaks, probably because of the "quick clear" deed. However, it could be the trigger mechanism has slipped... or perhaps the flint has cracked, or any number of things (I don't claim to be an expert on flintlocks, or the like). Maybe the masterwork double-pistol was a wheel lock, which, although they were typically very effective (no slow-burn match to worry about, and faster firing than a flintlock), they were very complex, and thus less reliable.
Finally, please remember that "destroyed" is just a condition that means that the item cannot currently be used. If it is not a magical gun, it can be repaired by using the Mending spell (assuming all parts are there). If it is magical, and just "wrecked", you could use Make Whole instead if the caster level of the caster is at least twice that of the item, or the Gunsmithing feat (which takes time, but all PFS users of guns will have).
So, the gunslinger wishing to add to his DPR by using double-pistols or muskets is risking losing the use of the weapon for the scenario, not for good. He should have a back-up weapon (probably his original gun, which will not be double-barreled), so I can see that as being an acceptable risk. But, a risk it is, and like many things surrounding the Gunslinger, a risk that needs to be taken into consideration in order for the character class as a whole not being unbalanced.
So, in conclusion... 2 misfires on 1 trigger pull == 1 destroyed/wrecked gun.
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You forgot that if there is a misfire, then the misfire range for subsequent shots increases by 4.That is actually very strong evidence for my argument. Double misfires can only destroy a gun if they are not simultaneous. And if they are not simultaneous, them the misfire of one barrel should cause the second barrel to have a greater chance of misfiring because you are now using a broken weapon. So both shots should not be rolled simultaneously if this is the case and would thus be sequential shots which would allow the stopping of the sequence. So, again, either way, the gunslinger should have an out.
Trollbill, this is perhaps the first argument I have seen that actually makes sense as to why a double-misfire would not destroy a gun... because you might not be able to double-misfire. However, thematically, this doesn't feel right, unless a misfire from either barrel causes both shots to fail... and I could see that. A little harsher than what you were proposing, but perhaps something I could live with.
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there is a Rule that I came across when I was Preping Bonekeep level 1 somewhere that unless the broken condition comes from Damage that it cannot be destroyed by the same effect (I dont recall where it is)
Not Broken + Apply Broken = Broken
Broken + Apply Broken = Still Broken
I dont play Gunslingers to know if 2 misfires is a destroyed ... but this would be the exception to the Rule if that were so
I'll try to find Citation in a few min
ok ... looked it up ... Gunslingers that misfire 2x in PFS do indeed Explode ... no HP Damage just Boom
Advanced firearms (which arent legal in PFS) do not go past Broken
by RAW it should explode if you double misfire ... however I can see it from both sides ... Honestly untill something came down Id have to rule that it exploded :-(
The idea that both barrels misfiring breaks the gun because there is only one "weapon" is reasonable from a gamist point of view.
It makes the inner simulationist and gun nut in me scream, though.
Just because one barrel is having problems does not mean the gun breaks if the other barrel also has problems, it should just mean you need to clear both barrels.
Then again, the very idea that you can still load and fire a misfired weapon in the first place makes my brain hurt. It shouldn't physically possible to reload and fire out of a misfired barrel, you need to clear the old round and powder first before it works at all. But I'm fairly sure whoever came up with the firearms rules for pathfinder did not have a heck of a lot of real world knowledge about firearms.
-j
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Can you quote a rule that says magical firearms don't explode? All I see is this:
Early Firearms: If an early firearm with the broken
condition misfires again, it explodes. When a nonmagical
firearm explodes, the weapon is destroyed. Magical firearms
are wrecked, which means they can’t fire until they are
fully restored (which requires either the make whole spell
or the Gunsmithing feat). When a gun explodes, pick one
corner of your square—the explosion creates a burst from
that point of origin. Each firearm has a burst size noted
in parentheses after its misfire value. Any creature within
this burst (including the firearm’s wielder) takes damage as
if it had been hit by the weapon—a DC 12 Reflex save halves
this damage.
The way I read it, all early firearms explode if it misfires twice. Nonmagical FA that explodes are destroyed, while magical ones are just wrecked. It doesn't say they don't explode, just that they aren't destroyed.
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The way I read it, all early firearms explode if it misfires twice. Nonmagical FA that explodes are destroyed, while magical ones are just wrecked. It doesn't say they don't explode, just that they aren't destroyed.
There is nothing indicating that a firearm explodes if it misfires twice.
A firearm explodes if it has the broken condition and misfires.
The difference is that with two simultaneous misfires, the weapon doesn't have the broken condition for either of them. So it is just broken.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The idea that both barrels misfiring breaks the gun because there is only one "weapon" is reasonable from a gamist point of view.
It makes the inner simulationist and gun nut in me scream, though.
Just because one barrel is having problems does not mean the gun breaks if the other barrel also has problems, it should just mean you need to clear both barrels.
Then again, the very idea that you can still load and fire a misfired weapon in the first place makes my brain hurt. It shouldn't physically possible to reload and fire out of a misfired barrel, you need to clear the old round and powder first before it works at all. But I'm fairly sure whoever came up with the firearms rules for pathfinder did not have a heck of a lot of real world knowledge about firearms.
-j
Jason, if you want to see what a game system looks like when people who really know guns write the rules, go track down a copy of 3rd ed Gurps High Tech. (Followed by 3rd ed Gurps Vehicles which shows what happens when people use rocket science to write the vehicles rules...)
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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The way I read it, all early firearms explode if it misfires twice. Nonmagical FA that explodes are destroyed, while magical ones are just wrecked. It doesn't say they don't explode, just that they aren't destroyed.There is nothing indicating that a firearm explodes if it misfires twice.
A firearm explodes if it has the broken condition and misfires.
The difference is that with two simultaneous misfires, the weapon doesn't have the broken condition for either of them. So it is just broken.
I think you've made your position perfectly clear. But no matter how many times you repeat it, you're not going to convince everybody that your viewpoint is the only one that could possibly be true.
I find it ironic that this comes in a thread started to discuss a gunslinger build that, while supported by an ultra-strict parsing of RAW, was felt by a significant number of people to be beyond the bounds of RAI.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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The way I read it, all early firearms explode if it misfires twice. Nonmagical FA that explodes are destroyed, while magical ones are just wrecked. It doesn't say they don't explode, just that they aren't destroyed.There is nothing indicating that a firearm explodes if it misfires twice.
A firearm explodes if it has the broken condition and misfires.
The difference is that with two simultaneous misfires, the weapon doesn't have the broken condition for either of them. So it is just broken.
I think you've made your position perfectly clear. But no matter how many times you repeat it, you're not going to convince everybody that your viewpoint is the only one that could possibly be true.
I find it ironic that this comes in a thread started to discuss a gunslinger build that, while supported by an ultra-strict parsing of RAW, was felt by a significant number of people to be beyond the bounds of RAI.
Nothing ironic about it. Neither redward nor myself feel that a self-destructing $2000+ gp weapon is RAI. I base this on the fact that the rules have no precedent for such a thing, and the fact that this is such a harsh penalty for using this weapon that if the designers had intended it to work this way they would have made it very clear that this was the case.
While I completely agree it can be interpreted the other way, I would question whether it should be interpreted that way as I find it to be a player hostile ruling which I do not feel benefits the game, especially if GMs decide to 'surprise' their unsuspecting players with it.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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There were harsher readings that got official on much weaker classes, combinations, abilities and euqipment in this game.
I don´t think the strict reading here is so bad. It´s balancing.
After all, gunslingers have the ability to repair guns, clear msifires or ignore them.
When a double barreled gun misfires on the first shot whole taking two shots, that´s bad luck. Most probably this happens in a level range where you normaly don´t have two shots, especially not on one action. So it´s something that comes at a price. When you have a magical gun, you can still repair it.
Guess why there have been so many discussions about gunslingers and double barreled guns and the FAQ about weapon cords. Perhaps because people are reading or want to read some stuff a bit too liberal?
I´m pretty sure gunslingers work perfectly fine even though.
Perhaps combat takes one or two rounds longer now. Who cares?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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There were harsher readings that got official on much weaker classes, combinations, abilities and euqipment in this game.
"Official" being the key word here. It's one thing to have a harsh ruling that everyone is on the same page with. It's another to have one that is subject to table variation.
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Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover
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Yeah only most cases of table variation i met in person so far were either boarderlining on wrong rules or just wrong. Most often people didn´t read the rules or only part of them. Sometimes people read them with certain preconditions. I´m myself not 100% warded against that.
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I think you've made your position perfectly clear. But no matter how many times you repeat it, you're not going to convince everybody that your viewpoint is the only one that could possibly be true.
I find it ironic that this comes in a thread started to discuss a gunslinger build that, while supported by an ultra-strict parsing of RAW, was felt by a significant number of people to be beyond the bounds of RAI.
I just don't see how there's a different interpretation unless you choose to ignore the words "at once".
Can you explain to me what I'm missing? (for Internet's sake, I'm not being sarcastic or intentionally obstinate)
I am willing to see a different interpretation, I just need to understand where it's coming from.
I see two possibilities:
"At once" means 'simultaneous'
The shots occur at the exact same instance, in which case the weapon never has the broken condition until after both misfires are resolved.
"At once" does not mean 'simultaneous'
You have to designate which shot happens first. If the first shot misfires, the misfire range increases from 1 - 3 on the die to 1 - 7 on the die (1 - 5 with Gun Training). If there are two misfires, the weapon explodes (or is wrecked).
Third possibility I don't see:
"At once" means the shots are 'simultaneous' and not at the same time
If either shot misfires (1 - 3 on the die, without other modifiers) then the other shot's misfire range changes, and you have to see if the other shot is 1 - 7 on the die (or 1 - 5 with Gun Training). If so, there's another misfire.
What I'm saying is that with your interpretation (both misfires count) the misfire range of the weapon becomes variable dependent on which of the simultaneous misfires happens first. You have a Schrodinger's misfire.
EDIT: some edits for clarity
