Apparently there is still some stigma surrounding role playing games. How that's possible in this day and age with the proliferation of MMOs and fantasy RPG PC and console games is beyond me, but I assure you it is out there.
So here's the background: I run a club at the high school where I teach, in a somewhat conservative semi-rural community in the Midwest. Occasionally I'll get parents emails or phone calls asking things like: "what's this game all about?" or "how do you play that game with other people?" etc. Obviously that latter question comes from parents who think that all RPGs must be played on a computer or console. The first question comes from naivete or total ignorance. Which is not to say that these people are complete buffoons, rather that they've never had the great experience to encounter tabletop RPGs, and so don't know exactly "how they work."
When these questions come up I have a, now almost patented, response about telling a story in our collective imagination using a set of mechanics and physics described in the rulebooks, and a fantasy setting as detailed in other books. It's always worked pretty well, and when parents realize their (sorry to further support stereotypes, but in my years of running this club it is 75% the reality) socially awkward son actually has in interest in a social game, they are more than happy to let them play.
Turn to the now. I have a parent that has said, "we don't allow 'little Johnny' (obviously the name's changed to protect the innocent) to play D&D here, and I wondered if that's like what you are playing." Can there really still be some moral or ethical questions about role playing games? Does anyone actually believe Chick Publications blatant lies about this game?
As I said, apparently so. So I'm looking at you community? Help me find some scholarly articles, research, and or just general pro-gaming material to throw out when these questions arise.
As of right now the only things I have found to show are these:
Attacks on Role Playing Games
RPGs and Learning Skills
RPG Studies
The Pulling Report
Tracy Hickman's essay about faith with a small hiccup at the end that discusses gaming
Has anyone amassed a stockpile of pro-gaming, or gaming defense literature over the years? If so, let me know, as I'd like to have a stockpile of my own to use in defense of my favorite hobby.
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Back in the 70s or 80s there was a movie called Mazes and Monsters that really played into this fear of RPGs. Basicly an individual took his character too seriously and was a bit crazy. Personally I do not think the game made him crazy, it only gave him a vehical to explore his crazy.
Defending RPGS- It is a game that requires not only imagination, but reading, math(basic math, but still math), Spacial Recognition, and hones improvisational skills simular to Dramatic/Comedy skits. If they can't understand that then you are wasting your breath.
Not sure if it helps, but this is the text (translated from Swedish) of a full-page ad at the back of a magazine I recently bought:
If you want to go to camp to both take confirmation and play role-playing games, the diocese of Västerås in cooperation with the Church of Sweden's Young Camelot organises role-playing camps every year.
During a few weeks camp at the Finnåker conference centre traditional conformation tutoring is mixed with table top roleplaying, LARPs, costume creation, board games, and a lot more. The roleplay confirmation has been active since 1994, and has since then united many friends for life. Everyone is welcome, age or prior knowledge of roleplaying unimportant.
www.rollspelskonfirmation.org
Is there a nearby group that does table top wargamming in your area?
Direct them thatway.
Sadly, there are still religious organizations that teach RPG's a being devil worship, black magic etc.
I live in the ultra liberal Northeast, in my 40's, and I still have on a rare occasion a person, or two shocked that I play, or my kids and their friends play.
No where near the misinformation of the 80's but it still exists. Of course these people see video games and rock music the same way . .
I run games for schools, and youth programs here and there and I find if there is someone with a concern, invite them to a gaming session and see how "evil" it really is.
I have been in a similar situation years ago. What I found is that unfortunately the majority of people who are anti-RPG are also the sort of people who are essentially impervious to logic and evidence. I only hope that the children who grow up in such households will eventually be able to throw away a lot of that religious/intolerant/knee-jerk conditioning. The ironic part is that RPGs are a great way to help them on that road.
There are some peolpe, however who are willing to honestly inquire because the only context that they know of RPGs in is from the ridiculous Christian propaganda. In these cases, your bit about stressing the social aspects of the game is an excellent start. I would also stress the idea that "D&D" is a toolset for storytelling more than it is any sort of content. Walk the parents through the sorts of things that will be in the campaign. Showing concerned parents that the game is essentially PG-13 and is essentially heroic in nature goes a long way to allaying some of their reservations.
I believe Jerry Lewis once said something like this :
To those who understand, no explanation is necessary. To those who don't, no explanation will suffice.
The difference between them and us is that we emulate a game that has a Dark Ages atmosphere whereas they still live in the Dark Ages.
As to how to change their minds about RPG's, maybe set demo's in shopping centres. Set up gaming tables and tables with arts and crafts so as to de-misyfy the games. If anyone mentions these games as vilolent, remind them that chess is a wargame.
Prejudice is hard to vanquish. My son is in a death metal band. To all those who say that his music is trash with just someone yelling at the top of their lungs to music he answers : So, opera is trash then!?!
I wanted to write more, and had begun to, but you're going to have to deal with the parents on a case-by-case basis. I mean, if they believe that RPGs involve subversive behavior, then you may not be able to convince them otherwise. But you want tips, so I'll try.
RPGs both encourages and reward: teamwork, community, logic and creativity.
RPGs rely on pretense, which is the cornerstone of humanity: its what separates humans from the other animals. Pretense builds personality (both good and bad, but bad is better than none). And heck! Pretending you're an 8th level paladin can't be any worse than watching two competing sports teams and pretending it has any effect on your life. At least the paladin has a say in his fate. Maybe don't bring this one up to parents though.
Oh, and all the other kids are doing it.
These people still exist?
Draw parallels to LotR and if that goes nowhere, you'll probably just have one less player at the table. LotR will allow a mental connection to "Christian Allegory" and that should hopefully counteract any negative garbage the parents have picked up elsewhere.
And another thing, why hasn't anyone dropped a house on Jack Chick yet? I get disagreeing with other people's opinions, but outright lies and slander should never go unpunished.
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Jack Chick can never die! Only the actors who portray him.
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Check this site its the Christian Gamers Guild Chaplan's Corner. Its got a lot of articles/links to articles really close to what you're looking for, if not exactly what you're looking for. :)
Turn to the now. I have a parent that has said, "we don't allow 'little Johnny' (obviously the name's changed to protect the innocent) to play D&D here, and I wondered if that's like what you are playing." Can there really still be some moral or ethical questions about role playing games?
If the question is that direct, then the answer really should be, "Yes. This game is like D&D." I would then ask the parents why he is not allowed to play D&D. If they say that the game leads to using magic, devil worship and/or demon posession, it's likely a lost cause and you won't be able to sway them to your point of view. My old pastor (a man I still greatly respect) believes that all RPG's are evil. I can't change his opinion, I just never mention to him that I play Pathfinder.
If they are open to discussion, I would ask if he is allowed to play World of Warcraft (or Skyrim, or that LOTR computer RPG...)? If so, you can emphasize that this is JUST LIKE World of Warcraft, except that it is not a computer game. You calculate all the player stats by hand and have to learn the rules of the game...[launch into discussion of the social and mathematical merits of RPG's].
If the problem is that the game is called (or based on or similar to) D&D, or because the game has magic in it, would the student be allowed to play a Star Wars tabletop RPG? Or a Superhero tabletop RPG? You could run the club with a table for those games so that he is allowed to participate. An acquaintance from college would not play any RPG with magic (specifically D&D), but he loved to play a Superhero RPG.
I don't know if that helps. I was not allowed to play D&D growing up in the 80's and 90's because it led to devil worship and demon posession. I discovered the game in college and have been hooked ever since.
-Aaron
I find myself having this conversation a lot now. My fiance, who is vehemently anti-videogame, actually likes me playing with my group. Because of the social aspect. When she asks "What is this D&D thing all about" I give her the answer about storytelling, as a group, as a DM, and making it interactive. I talk about the imagination part. The math. The logic. The acting. Physics.
I generally downplay the combat aspects, for me because I love the RP portion so much more, but because that does tend to put a bit of a negative light on it.
She loves our 4 year old daughter watching us play.
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You can always tell them that their child will be involved in creative storytelling in which he/she will act out a good and righteous man/woman of faith destroying demons and devils in the name of his/her just and benevolent god. If that doesn't scream "we want do good and destroy evil" they may be deaf. Of course now said child is stuck playing a LG cleric, and your campaign must focus on destroying evil outsiders, but that's the price of intolerance.
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that's the price of intolerance.
No, that's the price of labeling ignorance as intolerance so that you don't have to be bothered to educate and can instead take the easy way and write them off as a lost cause.
Want to guess why the situation in the OP's post has gone on so long?
Check this site its the Christian Gamers Guild Chaplan's Corner. Its got a lot of articles/links to articles really close to what you're looking for, if not exactly what you're looking for. :)
I wanted to thank all those that have replied already. Excellent advice all the way around. Thank you Eric in particular; that site has a lot of useful links. I encourage the community to keep the advice coming.
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that's the price of intolerance.No, that's the price of labeling ignorance as intolerance so that you don't have to be bothered to educate and can instead take the easy way and write them off as a lost cause.
Want to guess why the situation in the OP's post has gone on so long?
I was not trying to imply that one should not attempt to educate others on gaming. I was merely pointing out (in a ridiculous way) an example of how the game can fit even the most stringent morals, and that I'd rather let someone play a morally black and white game than not be allowed to participate at all. Educating others on the reality is first and foremost; however, there will always be some who will not listen to even the most logical/impassioned arguments. Try your best to make your point, but don't let it become a conflict.
I wouldn't bother with accumulating literature. I doubt it would be an effective way of putting the parents' fears to rest.
It's important to understand that fear is at the root of this. The parents are afraid of the consequences of their children playing the game. They're afraid because they are ignorant, and they have been lied to, and - this part is important, if unpleasant - they lack the fundamental critical thinking ability necessary to challenge those lies before internalizing them.
Expose them to the game. Invite them - in person, if at all possible - to talk with you about the game. Demonstrate how the game is played by having them watch you and your students play, if that's something that you can arrange. That is the most effective way to change their minds. It's possible that some of them will be beyond helping. Ignore them as best you can; they deserve the lives they lead. It's also possible that you might replace nonsensical concerns with more legitimate concerns (you might allay a parent's fear that the game involves satanic rituals, for instance, but they might object to the game's violent nature instead). There's nothing you can really do about that.
Good luck.
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they lack the fundamental critical thinking ability necessary to challenge those lies before internalizing them.
I agree with most of your post, but wanted to point something out here: there is only evidence of a lack of critical thinking if the parent has already been exposed to data showing RPGs to be A-okay but chose to reject that conclusion due to unsound reasoning. If they've never seen that data, then the opposite is true: if all the data someone possesses points to exactly one conclusion, then of course they're going to come to that conclusion; a lack of critical thinking skills would be shown by them rejecting that conclusion, not by their acceptance of it.
No, a lack of critical thinking skills is when someone has sufficient data to come to the right conclusion yet fails to (*cough*RulesForum*cough*), and in my experience that's not the situation with people like this; from what I've seen, we're talking about people who have never seen an RPG (or sometimes even a Eurogame), don't know anyone who has, and have only second- or third-hand information to go on. It'd be a bad parent who heard only negative stories about something they'd never encountered themselves, yet let their child partake.
This is actually why your idea of talking to them personally and assuaging their fears is such a good one - let them encounter it, give them something to trump the remote stories. When I was a kid, my parents wouldn't let me play RPGs (or Magic: the Gathering). I eventually introduced them to my parents directly, and they had something to go on. Now they think Pathfinder is the bee's knees! :)
they lack the fundamental critical thinking ability necessary to challenge those lies before internalizing them.I agree with most of your post, but wanted to point something out here: there is only evidence of a lack of critical thinking if the parent has already been exposed to data showing RPGs to be A-okay but chose to reject that conclusion due to unsound reasoning.
While true in the absolute, it doesn't hold up in the real world. I very much doubt that any of the parents in question have been so incredibly sheltered that a well-reasoned mind would find no cause to question the idea that Dungeons & Dragons is, for instance, a tool of Satan.
Let's imagine ourselves in a similar situation. Something new comes out, and people are all over it. A media frenzy quickly erupts over the controversy that this new hot thing is actually a government-sponsored gateway to hard drugs! Shocking, I know! Confronted with this information, would you a) accept it as true and allow that acceptance to shape your actions going forward, or b) approach it with skepticism and avoid making judgments until you've looked into it enough to feel well-informed?
There is a mammoth difference in how an individual with an agile, critical mind handles new information, and how an individual without such a mind handles new information. If you know someone who has bought into the idea that D&D is a tool of Satan (or is a cult, or is a gateway to drugs, or causes children to commit suicide, or any other notion that is equally ridiculous on its face), chances are they fall into the latter group.
The point is not that they haven't seen an RPG. There are tons of people who haven't seen someone play a tabletop RPG who wouldn't think twice about they children playing a board game with some friends (which is undoubtedly how it would appear). There are also tons of people who have heard all the scare-stories and Satanic conspiracy theories about D&D who have had the presence of mind to reject or question those stories. We are talking about the people who heard these stories - stories that are clearly nonsense even if you don't have first-hand knowledge of what D&D is or how it plays - and still chose the path of acceptance rather than critical thought.
The reason this is important is because it's way harder to reason with someone who lacks that critical mindset, and the OP needs to be prepared for that.
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There are also tons of people who have heard all the scare-stories and Satanic conspiracy theories about D&D who have had the presence of mind to reject or question those stories. We are talking about the people who heard these stories - stories that are clearly nonsense even if you don't have first-hand knowledge of what D&D is or how it plays - and still chose the path of acceptance rather than critical thought.
I myself am a Christian, and I (obviously) have no qualms about playing RPGs (especially D&D). It has been my experience that the majority of the people (other Christians) that have negative things to say about D&D do so because of its inclusion of magic and spell-casting. These are not idiots that still believe that the game has us running around and literally casting spells; quite the contrary... They know the spell casting is fictional. However, typically, these same Christians do not let their children read books like Harry Potter either, for the same reasons...
Those reasons? The Bible tells us that magic comes from one source, and that source (and its use) is evil. The Bible also tells us to "abstain from all appearance of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:22). Unfortunately, many Christians take this passage out of context as well as too literally, so they end up applying it to things unnecessarily.
While misguided, I'd hardly attribute it to a lack of critical thinking...
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The answer is "yes, this is a lot like D&D".
If they don't want to sit in on a session or let their kid play, then that has to be respected. They are the kid's parents, after all...it's up to them to "raise their kid up right" as they see fit, as long as it's not violating the law in some way.
There are some folks who are able to hear something beyond their biases, and there are others who just can't for some reason. Maybe they aren't ready. Maybe they have life lessons to learn yet. You can send them all the articles you wish, but they just might not be able to hear your side quite yet.
Good luck.
There are also tons of people who have heard all the scare-stories and Satanic conspiracy theories about D&D who have had the presence of mind to reject or question those stories. We are talking about the people who heard these stories - stories that are clearly nonsense even if you don't have first-hand knowledge of what D&D is or how it plays - and still chose the path of acceptance rather than critical thought.I myself am a Christian, and I (obviously) have no qualms about playing RPGs (especially D&D). It has been my experience that the majority of the people (other Christians) that have negative things to say about D&D do so because of its inclusion of magic and spell-casting. These are not idiots that still believe that the game has us running around and literally casting spells; quite the contrary... They know the spell casting is fictional. However, typically, these same Christians do not let their children read books like Harry Potter either, for the same reasons...
Those reasons? The Bible tells us that magic comes from one source, and that source (and its use) is evil. The Bible also tells us to "abstain from all appearance of evil" (1 Thessalonians 5:22). Unfortunately, many Christians take this passage out of context as well as too literally, so they end up applying it to things unnecessarily.
While misguided, I'd hardly attribute it to a lack of critical thinking...
That is exactly what it is.
I would argue, without hesitation, that taking something both out of context and too literally is either a question of malice or lack of critical thought. In this case, I very much prefer to frame it as a lack of critical thought, as framing it as malice paints a much less rosy picture.
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I would argue, without hesitation, that taking something both out of context and too literally is either a question of malice or lack of critical thought.
I can agree with some of that...
However, a lot of Christians know that Paul was speaking to the Church at Thessalonica and are able to take that Bible passage in the context in which it was written and yet still retain their negative view of D&D because they believe that it [D&D] is a stumbling block to their Faith because the Bible also says: "Everything is permissible - but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible - but not everything is constructive." (1 Corinthians 10:23).
Do not defend it, show why it is great and fun.
If they won't sit down and role some dice for a simplified game, they aren't worthy of your time.
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Back in the early 90s I picked up Dragon Magazine once a month at my local comic book store. I knew the woman who owned it, having grown up with her son. One day I walked in to get the newest issue and she said she'd seen a documentary about how D&D caused people to go insane and that she would no longer order it for me. Turns out she'd watched "Mazes and Monsters" and like so many people actually believed this was based on a Rona Jaffe's account of a true story. I never understood how people actually believed this was a documentary, and I STILL run into people who do.
Incidentally, if anyone has the stomach for it, you can watch the entire movie on Youtube.
You can point out contrary to video games like WoW or Call of Duty, you often must have real friends you have met or will meet to play. At least it can get them out of the house and socializing if nothing else.
Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.
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Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Back in the early 90s, the very first D&D campaign I was going to play in because the GM's mother told him D&D was satanic and he couldn't play it anymore. He was 16 years old or so so while a minor, not especially young or incapable of discerning fantasy from reality.
I would not be surprised, especially in certain areas, if this idea was still perpetuated 20 years later.
To a degree, some folks will not change their minds. They need to stick to the kool aid they've been drinking, or admit they've been feed BS by someone they trusted, and that's a damned hard thing to do. It's not fair, but all you can do is keep playing with those who are allowed. Sometimes by example of their turning out to be fine upstanding kids, that's the best proof you can provide that RPGs are okay.
What I would do is invite the parents to play through a demo of the game with you. Show them what it's about hands on and from there let them decide whether they think it's appropriate for their child. They may still decide it's a bad thing, but it's still a more informed decision.
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There is no better way to break though that barrier of non-critical thinking than showing the parents an example of the game.
And there is no better felling than seeing someone become able to think critically about thinks they just blindly believed before. Best of luck.
I very much doubt that any of the parents in question have been so incredibly shelteredThen it sounds to me like there's a lie that your critically-thinking mind has failed to challenge. I'm related to people who are that incredibly sheltered.
It looks like you're trying to take me down a peg or two, or something. I can't really be sure, but it's a pretty snarky reply.
First, I didn't say they don't exist. It's a big world, and someone with a robust, critical mind can lead such an insanely insular life that they are never given cause to question ideas as silly as "D&D is a satanic board game." What I did say is that I don't think any of the parents in question fall into that category. I'm pretty sure they don't. It's much more likely that they just aren't inherently critical, or weren't when they were first told about D&D.
See, what happens when you have a critical mind is that you hear something like, "Hey, there's a new board game out and it's being used to conduct satanic rituals by children!" you say to yourself, "Hey, that sounds absolutely ridiculous!" or at the very least, "Wow, that's so far beyond the pale that I'd better look into it a little bit more and withhold an opinion until I can consider myself well-informed!" This is what you were being taught in school whenever someone gave you a critical thinking exercise. You were literally being taught to think in a certain way, because the ability to think critically informs how you will absorb and process knowledge for the rest of your life.
I'm not sure if you didn't understand what I was saying, or if you're trying to be contrary, or what, but it's okay to ask for clarification before firing off a snark barrage.
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I like that Jack's icon is a troll...
Back in college, a fellow-gamer friend of mine actually bought a few dozen copies of the unintentionally-hilarious Chick tract Dark Dungeons, which he regularly handed out at the gaming club as a joke. ["It's advertising! Who wouldn't want to get real magic powers?"]
Pack to the OP's point-- if these parents are still believing 30-year-old anti-RPG propaganda, this may be a lost cause. You can point to the fact that thousands of Christians are gamers, and accusations of linking "D&D" to Satanism were completely debunked decades ago.
For that matter, I'm a Christian-- I'm an ordained elder in the Presbyterian Church (USA)!
Back in the early 90s I picked up Dragon Magazine once a month at my local comic book store. I knew the woman who owned it, having grown up with her son. One day I walked in to get the newest issue and she said she'd seen a documentary about how D&D caused people to go insane and that she would no longer order it for me. Turns out she'd watched "Mazes and Monsters" and like so many people actually believed this was based on a Rona Jaffe's account of a true story. I never understood how people actually believed this was a documentary, and I STILL run into people who do.
Incidentally, if anyone has the stomach for it, you can watch the entire movie on Youtube.
Unholy Evil Outsider Crap!!!! I watched the first nine minutes of that "movie" (and I use that term very very loosely) and just about gouged out my eyes with my yogurt spoon. That has got to be one of the, if not the, worst written, produced, directed, and acted pieces of "cinema" (and I use that term very very loosely) in all of theater history.
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Dude, Mazes and Monsters is definitely So Bad, It's Good.
I love the way at the end when he's on the road to recovery how his friends come back around and feed his delusions some more. Because, you know, the best way to deal with delusional people is to enthusiastically validate their delusions.
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Dude, Mazes and Monsters is definitely So Bad, It's Good.
The new three musketeers movie falls deeply within this category. Wow.
Back in the early 90s I picked up Dragon Magazine once a month at my local comic book store. I knew the woman who owned it, having grown up with her son. One day I walked in to get the newest issue and she said she'd seen a documentary about how D&D caused people to go insane and that she would no longer order it for me. Turns out she'd watched "Mazes and Monsters" and like so many people actually believed this was based on a Rona Jaffe's account of a true story. I never understood how people actually believed this was a documentary, and I STILL run into people who do.
Incidentally, if anyone has the stomach for it, you can watch the entire movie on Youtube.
I've seen players go temporarily insane when rolling a natural 1, no long lasting insanity though.
That situation though, wow. So many good counters to that claim that a doco taught me it makes people go insane. Such as:
Do I look insane?
Are you high?
You believe everything in documentaries?
It's rolling dice with storytelling, does that sound insanity inducing?
Weird paranoid fears from some groups come out, whenever there is a newish form of entertainment.