Hey all,
Is it just me or is Angelskin mispriced? I not only mean powerwise, but also from a roleplaying perspective.
It is made out of the skin of angels. It is prices at +1000 for light armor and +2000 for medium armor. It gives you an undetectable alignment at a 20% spell fail chance.
If you play an evil guy (Way of the Wicked campaign anyone?), this is a no-brainer item. First sign of mispricing :) Maybe it is not very, very high-powered, but the fact that it is a no-brainer for 2k says it all.
Furthermore: angelskin? The skins of angels? For the price of only three or six masterwork swords? For the price of a +1 weapon? I assume it is much, much more rare than diamonds? How many angels die and are skinned and preserved afterwards?
My GM houseruled it as unavailable immediately. Unless we flayed an angel ofcourse ;)
What do you think?
Best,
Henk
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I think of Angelskin the same way I think of Dragonhide: The additional cost represents the cost of the special tools/materials/whatever you need to work properly work the material. You have to actually go out and get said skin/hide because it's almost certainly not on sale, unlike mithral, cold iron, and the like, because those can be obtained by non-adventuring miners or blacksmiths pretty easily. Basically, if you have to kill a thing that could look at an average NPC and have them explode to get a material, NPCs probably aren't gonna go looking for a fiery doom.
*stunned* Just where the heck can this thing be found?
On the plus side if you go out and skin an angel you are definitely going to need it.
The failure is based on alignment specific spells/effects. When wearing the armor there is a 20% chance of something like smite evil not functioning, basically it is like alignment SR vs spells that target evil alignments.
How many more people necroing threads with their 2cp are we away from affording this must have angel skin armor?
2cp
There are plenty of angels and they get offed all the time, and they are always making more of them.
This stuff should be dirt cheap!
Who said anything about summons?
Angels visit the prime all the time.
I'm fairly certain that they don't send out a US Marine style kill squad for every single harry hard luck and sally sob story that manages to get their halo in a pinch.
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Who said anything about summons?
Angels visit the prime all the time.
I'm fairly certain that they don't send out a US Marine style kill squad for every single harry hard luck and sally sob story that manages to get their halo in a pinch.
You need at least a 4th level spell to call a "single harry hard luck and sally sob story" and an arcane spellcaster (divine spellcaster calling a servant of their divinity to skin him/it/her will have some serious, immediate problem) and that will get you an angel with 6 HD or less, so either an Iophanite or a Cassisian. Both have a small problem when you farm them to make leather or hide armor, they are made of metal:
Iophanite
This disc of flying metal is about the size of a wagon wheel and burns with yellow-white flame.
Cassisian
This finely crafted golden helm is decorated with intricate filigree, and flutters gracefully through the air on feathered wings.
So you need Planar binding and a level 11 arcane spellcaster that will summon some angel with 8 or more HD.
Then, to make a human sized armor you need at least a large Angel or several smaller ones. Their disappearance will be noted.
Angels coming to the material plane by themselves? They need Plane shift, a permanent gate or to be sent on an errand by stronger angels. That means strong angels or angels on a mission, not exactly "harry hard luck and sally sob story".
And angels are Good, with a capital g, so yes, they will go and help people in distress, especially if they are other angels.
Aren't angels just another Outsider?
Aren't there LOTS of encounters involving Outsiders?
Why would angels be freaking special?
Especially, why would angels be special enough to warrant replying to an 8 year dead thread?
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Summons disappear, so you need a gated angel or one called with Planar ally to get the skin. Killing them tend to be noticed by other angels.
Speaking of necroing: you don't need to kill an angel just to get their skin. A Solar has Regeneration 15 but no fire immunity, so self-skinning seems like a really convenient way to deal with sunburns. :D
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OTOH while supply is likely low, demand is probably low too - you have to be evil, to want to wear pale leather armour, and to want to make it clear to many who see you that you should be buried face down at a crossroads.
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I assume most of the evil people will want to dye it some other color or wear something else on top, since the whole point is to look less evil. Either that or so few people would know what it was on sight they wouldn't need to bother.
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OTOH while supply is likely low, demand is probably low too - you have to be evil, to want to wear pale leather armour, and to want to make it clear to many who see you that you should be buried face down at a crossroads.
You know, it's weird how it's always the good people who want kill the evil people on sight...
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OTOH while supply is likely low, demand is probably low too - you have to be evil, to want to wear pale leather armour, and to want to make it clear to many who see you that you should be buried face down at a crossroads.You know, it's weird how it's always the good people who want kill the evil people on sight...
Probably cause of that whole “I did evil stuff” thing.
Getting a puppy for a child, and killing a child prompts two very different reactions.
OTOH while supply is likely low, demand is probably low too - you have to be evil, to want to wear pale leather armour, and to want to make it clear to many who see you that you should be buried face down at a crossroads.You know, it's weird how it's always the good people who want kill the evil people on sight...Probably cause of that whole “I did evil stuff” thing.
Getting a puppy for a child, and killing a child prompts two very different reactions.
Yes, BUT... not every Evil person kills every child they see. They don't have Detect Child, or Smite Child... they have plans, and children may be expendable or bait or whatever, but it's part of the plan.
Not some random Paladin in the market seeing some random "Evil" character and smiting them with divine justice.
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Not some random Paladin in the market seeing some random "Evil" character and smiting them with divine justice.
Only Awful Stupid paladins do that.
Detect evil is hardly foolproof. That 5th NG commoner that is thinking to emasculate the guy that raped his daughter register as evil. The CE 4th level bandit that raped her and is thinking that he wants a beer doesn't register as evil.|
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OTOH while supply is likely low, demand is probably low too - you have to be evil, to want to wear pale leather armour, and to want to make it clear to many who see you that you should be buried face down at a crossroads.You know, it's weird how it's always the good people who want kill the evil people on sight...Probably cause of that whole “I did evil stuff” thing.
Getting a puppy for a child, and killing a child prompts two very different reactions.
Yes, BUT... not every Evil person kills every child they see. They don't have Detect Child, or Smite Child... they have plans, and children may be expendable or bait or whatever, but it's part of the plan.
Not some random Paladin in the market seeing some random "Evil" character and smiting them with divine justice.
Random Evil person wearing the skin of angels, remember that pertinent part.
No, that poor "Evil" person in the market HAS to wear angel skin BECAUSE of awful stupid Paladins that will smite them on sight.
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I feel like this is getting a bit serious for a silly joke about both sides having funny hypocrisies.
There is no real hypocrisy...
Paladins are just the only ones walking around checking everyone's alignment, and killing the ones they disagree with on sight.
For literally everyone else, you don't care what anyone elses' alignment is. Even if you CAN detect it, you generally don't. And, even IF you do, you generally don't take up arms and kill random people in the market that show up as Evil.
I don't care if the guy selling me armor is Evil, nor do I care if the gal over there buying a butchering axe is evil. Until they actually DO something evil, I just don't care. Paladins do. And that's why Paladins are awful and stupid.
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There is no real hypocrisy...
Paladins are just the only ones walking around checking everyone's alignment, and killing the ones they disagree with on sight.
Only Awful Stupid paladins do that. Someone with a modicum of intelligence and wisdom knows that the cleric with the evil aura can be a LE cleric of Adabar that wouldn't cure anyone if his fee isn't paid, is avaricious, and think that slavery is the natural state of not-rich people, but that at the same time hasn't violated any law, heal the rich people of the city, and manage the local bank.
For literally everyone else, you don't care what anyone elses' alignment is. Even if you CAN detect it, you generally don't. And, even IF you do, you generally don't take up arms and kill random people in the market that show up as Evil.
I never GMed a player doing that. Maybe because in my group action have consequences.
And even when other people are the GM, I have never seen someone play that way.
I don't care if the guy selling me armor is Evil, nor do I care if the gal over there buying a butchering axe is evil. Until they actually DO something evil, I just don't care. Paladins do. And that's why Paladins are awful and stupid.
In RL I do care about what the shopkeepers in the area do. If someone regularly mistreats clients, insult people because of race or social class, I will avoid his shop if possible.
If someone is kind, keep dog biscuit for the clients walking their dogs, is kind to kids, and generally smile and is courteous, I will travel a bit more to buy from them.Alignment, in game, means exactly that. A mean shopkeeper or a nice shopkeeper probably are a evil or a good shopkeeper.
Charisma and diplomacy matter, and competence in their too job, so it is not automatic that mean equate to evil, but is a reasonable indicator.
I think that generally people care about how the shopkeepers behave, but not kill them on sight when they behave badly. It is not different while playing.
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Paladins are just the only ones walking around checking everyone's alignment, and killing the ones they disagree with on sight.In your games maybe.
Until they actually DO something evil, I just don't care. Paladins do. And that's why Paladins are awful and stupid.
Because they care that someone might done something evil before or are about to?
You not caring what other people do or what happens to them does not make the Paladin class bad.
Nah, being willing to kill others because of your religion is what makes the Paladin class bad.
Even with deities being real in this game, if they were so concerned with the actions of THAT evil person, or that one, or that one over there, they could do something about it themselves. They don't actually need a bunch of judgemental bullies walking around doing their business for them. Why? Because even the gods literally don't care as much as their Paladins seem to.
Maybe nothing is wrong with the class itself, only the players who use it...?
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... what the f#+% are you even talking about?
It's not Paladin specific to be opposed to Evil Gods and their followers.
As for in game no deity directly intercedes on the material plane to that extent, that's precisely why they have followers. It's not a matter of not caring, it's because they can't. The meta reason being that if they did, there'd be a lot less stuff for PCs to do.
This is very much apparent an issue with the people you've played with, either in how they've played paladins or in how they've presented the lore of a setting since none of that syncs up with Pathfinder.
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I assume most of the evil people will want to dye it some other color or wear something else on top, since the whole point is to look less evil. Either that or so few people would know what it was on sight they wouldn't need to bother.
Even if dyed or otherwise hidden it's still leather armor. Aside from understrength bards and rogues and the odd druid, who wears that?
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Leather, Studded Leather, and Chain Shirts all have the same total AC+Maxdex, so it's perfectly reasonable for someone to wear leather instead of a chain shirt.
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Even if dyed or otherwise hidden it's still leather armor. Aside from understrength bards and rogues and the odd druid, who wears that?
The point is to avoid combat. If you're an evil cleric and you're summoning demons in your dark lair, you wear your breastplate, in case you're interrupted. If you're in town, trying to avoid the attention of one of VoodistMonk's sociopathic paladins, you wear angelskin leather. It's more comfortable, if nothing else.
Mmm... So soft against my skin. Feels like I'm wearing nothing at all!
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Leather armour is the rigid boiled leather stuff, not a gimp suit or a leather jacket. Those are clothing not armour. You'll feel wearing it alright.
And yeah, a world infested with Voodist paladins has a demand for angelskin armour. For some reason that scenario didn't spring into my mind.
@AD: mithral chain shirts and darkleaf cloth (studded) leather have a higher AC + max dex though.
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Leather armour is the rigid boiled leather stuff, not a gimp suit or a leather jacket. Those are clothing not armour. You'll feel wearing it alright.
And yeah, a world infested with Voodist paladins has a demand for angelskin armour. For some reason that scenario didn't spring into my mind.
Hmm, Voodist paladins, must be a new archetype, the ones I know generally will have to atone (as a minimum) if they kill people simply because they register as evil. Killing someone for that, in the middle of a city without any provocation is, as a minimum, a chaotic act. Depending on circumstances it can be easily considered an evil act.
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Why Chaotic? I can envision a religious nutcase appointing himself legislator, police, judge, jury and executioner, reciting his law while attacking and killing someone that was detected as Evil. From the point of view of the paladin, the wicked person was armed, resisted arrest and tried to escape.
I do not see Chaos there, on the contrary, I see following the letter of the law, to punish the wicked and show them no mercy.
- pure Awful Stupid -
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@AD: mithral chain shirts and darkleaf cloth (studded) leather have a higher AC + max dex though.
They do, but you can also stud the studded armor with mithral, and darkleaf the regular leather. The only difference then is where the dex score stops.
You'll never know what kind of leather evil people like. I remember an adventure where the bad guy had polymorphed his bedsheets to feel like the soft skin of young women.
At least I hope it was just a polymorph...