Sell me on (Improved) Familiar vs Bonded Object


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While familiar is generally the better choice, unlike a lot of similar choices in PF, the other option is still useful (I prefer rings. You can hide them under gloves to stop sundering and Forge Ring is the least valuable of the possible feats you get.


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While I think Bonded Item and Familiar, or even Improved Familiar (and don't forget this takes one of your very few feats) are a matter of courses for horses, I will point out the silliness of one claimed weakness of Bonded Item.

Stealing your Bonded Items isn't a weakness. It's simply called your GM dicking with you. If someone is going to steal from you they take your Spell Books, which unlike a Bonded Item, is worth heaps at resale. And guess what? It screws over ANY Wizard, whether they have a Familiar or a Bonded Item.

As for scouting with your Familiar? Isn't that what the party Rogue is for?

Basically it comes down to a choice -

Bonded Item - More Spell Versatility + cheap magic Item (The Amulet of +4 Int, +2 NAC, +2 Deflection, Dimension Door x 3/day, Speed and anything else you can think off and afford)

Familiar - More non-spell versatility + Role play opportunities. Improved Familiar is spending a feat to makes these options stronger (how much stronger is dependent on the kindness and/or stupidity of your GM). Something that most posters have been skipping over is that the Player DOESN'T have automatic full control over the Familiar unless the GM decides to give it to them. As a general rule the GM gives the PC that control 99% of the time for ease of play but per RAW there is nothing stopping the GM going "Your Familiar does "x"" when you want him to do "y". Although if the GM does this he's probably doing the same as a GM stealing a Bonded Item, namely he's dicking with you and you have reason to get mad.


Forgot to mention. If you do go the Bonded Item path but want the Roleplay opportunity of a Familiar then make your Bonded Item an Intelligent Item. You might consider this the equivalent of taking the Improved Familiar feat to boost your Familiar. :-)

Just be warned, as any one with experiance of Intelligent Items can probably tell you. This could come back to bite you. :-)


Of course, given you are the creator, a purpose that is "serve me" (but with loopholes removed via your crazy intelligence score) is possible.


Removing loopholes is wisdom more than intelligence.

"Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over."

Remember HAL knows what's good for you. :-)


Stephen Ede wrote:

Removing loopholes is wisdom more than intelligence.

"Look Dave, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over."

Remember HAL knows what's good for you. :-)

This thread should probably have started and ended with:

Actions are the scarcest commodity in the game at high levels, and the most impactful.

Improved Familiar gives you additional actions.

At mid to high levels, Improved Familiar is much better than Bonded Item.

-Cross


They are actions you don't fully control and the actions are more limited than your PC actions.

So no, it's not that simple.


Stephen Ede wrote:

They are actions you don't fully control and the actions are more limited than your PC actions.

So no, it's not that simple.

Many GM's do allow you to control your familiars - or at least you can talk to them (as a free action) and tell them what you want. Even if they're not under your control, actions are actions. Unless your GM is a complete jerk, he's not going to be having your familiar making perform checks during combat - he's going to have them do something useful. You can discuss strategy with your familiar in advance, etc.

It is absolutely that simple. Familiars are a bigger benefit, without the potential penalty. Bonded item isn't terrible, but not terrible isn't the same as just as good.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Most of my wizards went raven...I just liked to roleplay a wise-cracking familiar. In fact I never ended up taking Improved Familiar. Just didn't want to give him up.

On a side note: having a Raven do some scouting of an enemy fortress was amazingly effective. He just was one bird in a flock and the guards pretty much ignored him. He listened in on conversations and took a quick peek through some key windows.

Definitely got the "knowing is half the battle" down pat. My wizard then provided the red and blue lasers for the other half of the battle.

As for Bonded Item...well in a low-wealth campaign it can be a big money-saver if you use it for enchantments. But I just didn't like feeling my wizard was dependent on a focus.

Dark Archive

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Is everyone ignoring the fact that Treantmonk just posted on Paizo for the first time in two years?


He comes and goes at will, he is a Treantmonk after all.


Mergy wrote:
Is everyone ignoring the fact that Treantmonk just posted on Paizo for the first time in two years?

My thoughts exactly!


MyTThor wrote:
Stephen Ede wrote:

They are actions you don't fully control and the actions are more limited than your PC actions.

So no, it's not that simple.

Many GM's do allow you to control your familiars - or at least you can talk to them (as a free action) and tell them what you want. Even if they're not under your control, actions are actions. Unless your GM is a complete jerk, he's not going to be having your familiar making perform checks during combat - he's going to have them do something useful. You can discuss strategy with your familiar in advance, etc.

It is absolutely that simple. Familiars are a bigger benefit, without the potential penalty. Bonded item isn't terrible, but not terrible isn't the same as just as good.

If you make your Bonded Item an Intelligent item then you can give it the ability to cast spells of your choice which means that you get Action Economy and that those additional Spells can be designed to fit your character much better than the Spell-like abilities of an Improved Familiar where you have to take what you get and try and work your character to fit. And much like the Familiar, while strictly speaking the item is a NPC your GM will probably leave it to you to control most of the time.

If you are a player who spends large amounts of non-game time working out the optimal spell-list, and your GM gives you enough information that this is a viable activity, then yes, Familiars are better beyond low level. Given that this isn't an accurate description of most players the simple truth is that the Bonded Item IS as good as the Improved Familiar. Indeed since most players almost never play over about level 12 (at least according to every survey I've seen) then the advantage of action economy is a relatively minor point.

In short, depending on Player and Campaign, Bonded Item will be better, and with a different Player/Campaign Improved Familiar will be better. As I think I said in my 1st post in this thread - It's horse's for courses.

From the perspective of the OP I think it's been made amply clear how strong Improved Familiar can be, and how you use it to do so. He can workout if these advantages apply to his campaign. To claim anything beyond that IMO requires someone saying "the way I play the game is the only way people (should/does?) play the game" which is simply silly. If there is one thing everyone should get from these forums it is that there is huge variance in styles of game/campaigns people play.


I'll give you one reason why a Bonded Item may be better than a Familiar: Free Mastercrafted Weapon.

I had a player playing a Transmuter Wizard select a Light Repeating Crossbow for his Bonded Item. (He also took the Exotic Weapon Feat to be able to use it.) As a result he's got a repeating crossbow that has a +1 to hit from the getgo. He also can access any spell in his spellbook that he is capable of casting. This does include Opposition School spells; he took Abjuration and Necromancy as his Opposition Schools so that means Dispel Magic would normally take two spell slots; if he's in a jam, he can throw one out. And he has one extra spell a day he can cast as a result which has come in useful on more than one occasion.

He's also planning on becoming an Eldritch Knight. A familiar would stop gaining abilities as he's not leveling up as a Wizard. The Bonded Item will continue to improve (insofar as spells that can be cast from it and any enchantments he puts on the item).

I've an GMPC (going toward Arcane Trickster) who took a regular familiar (Hawk). It has attacked an enemy once. Most of the time it's forgotten (sort of like the raven in OotS). Because when you're going underground a hawk isn't very useful! ^^;; (Yes, I knew full well what was in store for the campaign. I didn't optimize the GMPC - instead I created a background and have her choices based off of it.)

If you go straight Wizard... then yes an animal familiar may prove handy. But if you are going to multiclass... then you may be better off with a Bonded Item.

Grand Lodge

I agree that a bonded item goes great with multiclassing.

But for dedicated wizards,using the bonded item for its utility (always having that ONE spell you need) I find its better to leave some slots open and invest in the Fast Study feat at level 5. Having an improved familiar to throw alchemist's fires for the pyrotechnics spell, tanglefoot bags for flying creatures, and caltrops for enemies on the ground is exceptional utility. That's not even factoring that many are capable of using magic devices.

Personally, Scribe Scroll, is what I use for those "must need" spells that I don't always prepare.

Sczarni

Treantmonk wrote:


Yes, you are missing the "Improved Familiar" Feat.

This allows you to take a familiar who has hands and can (potentially) use wands, throw tanglefoot bags, do healing checks, aid another, throw a net, etc. It's like an extra action every round.

On top of that many improved familiars have very nice spell like abilities, and often make great scouts (sometimes with natural invisibility, good stealth scores and flight)

Holy Cow! Treantmonk. There is a name I haven't seen (and quite missed seeing) in a couple years! Welcome back sir!

Nothing to add to TM's post really. Actions are the one thing that limits almost every class to the same degree. When you gain an ability or feature that lets you destroy the standard limits of action economy (such as a familiar or improved familiar) it is somewhere between potent and amazingly potent.

The variability of the potency depends on the party wealth mostly. If you cannot afford the wands or skill points needed to make your improved familiar a secondary caster, they lose some potency. On the other hand, even with no UMD on the familiar, careful consideration and thought into the party roles that need improving can make improved familiars amazing even without casting. An Imp, for example:

Constant—detect good, detect magic
At will—invisibility (self only)
1/day—augury, suggestion (DC 15)
1/week—commune (6 questions, CL 12th)

Very nice! Throw in DR 5/good or silver; Immune fire, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10, and you have one hell of a scout!


Oooo! A scout! Now we can tell that player who's playing a rogue he can stay home. Efficiency! Lol, rogues are so inferior.

I haven't played all the high-level games many of you have, but I can tell you my Bonded Object has allowed me to save someone's bacon no fewer than four times. i.e., the versatile battlefield-control wizard.

I propose wizards ought to choose between Bonded Object or Familiar, and Universalists can choose "Improved Bonded Object" at 7th level, giving them a second open spell.

(Yeah, I know there's already a third-party pub. "Imp.Bonded Obj.")


No love for the Witch? She gets a familiar also. She does have a considerable downside. The familiar IS the spellbook, and costs 2.5 times as much to replace (and it has fewer spells then).

/cevah


My eighth level wizard in an evil party has an Kyton Augur as their improved familiar which grants the ability to Commune. As such I'm now the herald of the archdevil that we serve, since even the cleric in the party can't communicate directly with them.

Things might change in a level or so, but for now it's providing me an ability that no one else of my level has or can easily get.


Does the bonded object spell count for a memorized spell slot when used, or is it an extra spell?


It's an extra spell.

Also, Treantmonk! Woah. O.O


Mystically Inclined wrote:

It's an extra spell.

Also, Treantmonk! Woah. O.O

Thank you!


Neo2151 wrote:

So the one glaring weakness with being a Wizard is the phrase, "If only I had prepared X today!"

So a familiar grants you some sort of bonus, usually very minor (+4 Init and, arguably, +2 Fort being the exceptions), and allows you to cast your touch spells through it.
Improved Familiar replaces the list with more powerful creatures, but you lose out on the minor bonus for... what exactly? A CR 2 creature instead of a CR 1/2? That's still not very impressive after, what, 4th-5th level?

Bonded Object allows you to bypass that one weakness I just discussed. On paper, that seems 1000x times better than a familiar. And yet, when I look around on the forums here, familiars almost always tend to be more popular.

Am I missing something?

Bypass one weakness to gain the weakness of item dependence vs wand monkey


I would choose either object pointy hat or familiar homunculus

Scarab Sages

I have some experience to offer on this one.

I played a wizard character from 1-5th level, then changed campaigns and played THE SAME wizard character from 1-6th level. The ONLY difference between the two characters was that the first time I chose the bonded object and the second time I chose the familiar.

My experience was that the bonded object was better for the first 4 levels. At these levels, your options were few, and the one extra “wild card” spell per day made a big difference.

Once I hit 5th level though the familiar became much better and here is why: I took the Shrink Item spell.

Using shrink item I can have my familiar start to break the action economy. For example:

1) Make a long, shallow square box our of wood, fill it with long pointy sticks, so that it looks like a porcupine.
2) Pack the box with river clay in order to hold the sticks in place, and surround it with more clay.
3) Wrap the box in a burlap sack to hold the clay in place and tie It off.
4) Shrink it and turn it into cloth
5) Dip the bottom in mud and dry it in the sun. This makes it bottom heavy (like a cloth lawn dart)

Now it can be tossed by your familiar on a solid surface, creating an obstacle on the battlefield. The total cost is like 1 silver piece if that.

Alternately you can do the same trick with the box and the clay, but have a wooden barricade come out of it, so you can use it for cover.

These simple devices mean that the familiar is an extra action per round. Even a rat familiar can “toss” an item in its teeth.

As you get the improved familiar things get much better, of course, but the turning point really was 5th level. I have played very high level wizards before and have found that action economy is much more important as you go up in level, because you have so many options that the extra spell per day becomes less and less important.


Neo2151 wrote:

So the one glaring weakness with being a Wizard is the phrase, "If only I had prepared X today!"

So a familiar grants you some sort of bonus, usually very minor (+4 Init and, arguably, +2 Fort being the exceptions), and allows you to cast your touch spells through it.
Improved Familiar replaces the list with more powerful creatures, but you lose out on the minor bonus for... what exactly? A CR 2 creature instead of a CR 1/2? That's still not very impressive after, what, 4th-5th level?

Bonded Object allows you to bypass that one weakness I just discussed. On paper, that seems 1000x times better than a familiar. And yet, when I look around on the forums here, familiars almost always tend to be more popular.

Am I missing something?

I might actually sell you on the opposite. You can make your bonded object an intelligent magic item. Basic sentience only costs +500 gp (+250 gp to add yourself) which grants the item Int/Wis/Cha 10 and causes it to be treated as a construct. Now you have a magical item-familiar that can serve you.

You can add magic effects to your bonded item and the bonded item gets its own set of actions and can activate its own magic item abilities.


This sounds very promising. Has anyone tried this? I'd love to hear a play test comparison between a familiar and an intelligent bonded item.

Scarab Sages

An intelligent item is cool, but it's not a familiar. For one thing, unless you build it arms and legs, it's not going to be able to manipulate items for you.

so yes you can build in a set of at will abilities but that's it.

Most wizards take craft wondrous (if they don't they should).

What does it even take to enchant an intelligent item?


All this intelligent item talk makes me think of Munchkins' "Two-Handed Sword".


A problem with the intelligent item solution could also be that it would have problems acting on its own wile the wizard was Holding on to/ wearing it?
I like the Arcane Bond class feature because it is a Real choice where both are great and you can only have one.

The Exchange

Not particularly creative, but I use my bat familiar as a radar. 20ft blindsense is better then none when see invis isnt on your spell list. Doesn't cost a spell slot too. Now I wish psuedo dragons could umd, but think it would be too powerful, as they can act as a permanent telepathic bond between the entire party...


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Ashiel wrote:
I might actually sell you on the opposite.

You do realize that this is a necro thread right? Chances are he has decided by now.

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