I discovered the Thunder and Fang feat last night, did some research and found it in A History of Ashes (Curse of the Crimson Throne) and saw the art for Krojun Eats-What-He-Kills and now I wanna make an Earthbreaker/Klar wielder.
What barbarian/ranger/fighter class/archetype would reap the most benefit from the T&F feat?
Since the Earth Breaker is a 2h and the Klar a 1h shield/weapon, you'd have to pick the Titan Mauler archetype for the feats to even be Feasible; unless your character has 3+ arms, or is able to wield 2h weapons as 1h's (in regards to size mechanics, it is treated as a size greater when using a 2 hander as a 1 handed weapon), the feat doesn't even seem feasible.
Then again, it isn't from one of the official rule books, so a feat like that might not be allowed in PFS games, which has specific guidelines and such, mostly having very strict (if not purely) RAW rulings, but that doesn't answer the question.
You'd have to be a Titan Mauler archetype (or whatever it's called, I forget at the moment) for it to even be feasible, and that's being generous. It's otherwise meant for a creature with 3+ arms, which most PCs, if not all, aren't allowed to utilize.
Actually IIRC you can carry the Earthbreaker with the Klar. You just can't attack with Either. Thunder and Fang allows you to attack with both as a Double Weapon.
OR
Alchemist dip take the Vestigial Arm Discovery.
Mind you I can't confirm this. It is just how I would rule it if it was brought into my games.
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Since the Earth Breaker is a 2h and the Klar a 1h shield/weapon, you'd have to pick the Titan Mauler archetype for the feats to even be Feasible; unless your character has 3+ arms, or is able to wield 2h weapons as 1h's (in regards to size mechanics, it is treated as a size greater when using a 2 hander as a 1 handed weapon), the feat doesn't even seem feasible.
Then again, it isn't from one of the official rule books, so a feat like that might not be allowed in PFS games, which has specific guidelines and such, mostly having very strict (if not purely) RAW rulings, but that doesn't answer the question.
You'd have to be a Titan Mauler archetype (or whatever it's called, I forget at the moment) for it to even be feasible, and that's being generous. It's otherwise meant for a creature with 3+ arms, which most PCs, if not all, aren't allowed to utilize.
Thunder and Fang does not require 2 hands for the earth Breaker.This feat is from the new Player Companion Varisian Birthplace of Legends.
Thunder and Fang
You have mastered the ancient Shoanti Thunder and
Fang fighting style, allowing you to fight with increased
effectiveness when wielding an earth breaker and klar.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon
Focus (earth breaker), Weapon Focus (klar)
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were
a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one
hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus
your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to
attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of
determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon,
preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing
penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar
can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it
does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it
is used as a weapon.
Special: This is a combat feat, and may be selected with
class features that grant bonus combat feats.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Varisia, Birthplace of Legends
Archetypes: Kapenia dancer and thundercaller are legal for play. Equipment: All equipment on pages 14–15 are legal for play except Varisian idol. Feats: Thunder and Fang is legal for play. Roles: Duskwarden, Frontier Defender, Magnimarian Warden, Professional Gambler, Sable Company Marine, Sczarni Tough, Shingles Dweller, Shoanti Outrider, Shoanti Totem Shaman, Sky Magistrate, Varisian Bravo, and Welcome Wanderer are legal for play. Traits: Coincunning, cypher resistance, emissary, empyreal cultist, humble beginnings, local know-it-all, regional influence (except Magnimar), regional recluse, roof racer, savage breaker, Shoanti steed, Shoanti tattoo, town gossip, underbridge dweller, Varisian tattoo, and winner’s luck are legal for play.
I bolded the relevant bit.
This is the miniature for Krojun.
It's a great feat: get a two-hander, a light weapon and a shield bonus! You need TWF and Weapon Focus for both weapons, but WOW! Just keeping your shield bonus while shield bashing is already a feat by itself! Needing the Weapon Focuses makes it take a while before you can take it but that helps mitigate the TWF penalties, anyway.
For class/archetype I'm thinking probably two-weapon ranger or two-weapon fighter even though the feat was written for a barbarian. I'm open to suggestions for any of these three classes, though, and don't mind multi-classing if the payoff is worth it.
Thunderstriker fighter archetype from Ultimate Combat, treating the klar as a buckler.
Good call. A human vanilla fighter can take T&F at 2nd level, and just go barbarian from there.
It will be higher than level 2... now you might have the prerequisites, but not Thunder and Fang.
Wait: rechecked my math... yea you can get it.
Well, I think I'm going to make him a TWF Ranger, even though it'll take longer to take T&F. Since the TWF chain are bonus feats for rangers that exempt the prerequisites, I can build my Shoanti Thunder and Fang warrior without having to stack DEX. I won't have the rage [8'(] but I'll have an animal buddy (maybe a badger - that way HE can rage!) so all is not lost. Thanks, all.
Oh dear Shelyn... a badger...
The Ranger will be a good idea. Though having a little DEX is good.
Oh, yeah. I'm keeping DEX. I just won't have it high enough to ever get greater TWF without it being a bonus feat.
The badger? Probably not, he'll probably be a Falconer of the Shriikirri-Quah (Hawk Clan).
It was more of the fact I have a Ranger with a badger...
They are brutal when used well...
i think its strange nobody mentioned human paladin getting 2 weapon fighting and weapon focus on lvl 1
Might have been that I didn't mention pallies in my list of possible classes. With a paladin build I'd be wasting the high DEX or the heavy armor proficiency whereas with the ranger I don't even need that high of a DEX. The only reason I even mentioned fighters is the huge number of bonus combat feats.
Don't get me wrong, now; there is no reason why a paladin can't work for this guy, but I don't really see my Shoanti warrior as the lawful type. I'd be happy to see how you would build the T&F Pally (just to like lvl 5). As a matter of fact, anyone who wants to post a T&F build - I'd be happy to see it! Don't worry about building him through to the end, just high enough to get T&F would be great.
Speaking of a Klar can it be enhanced as a shield?
The description of a Klar says:
As Armor: The klar functions as a light wooden or light steel shield when used to defend in combat.
Yes. Krojun, the barbarian I mentioned in the first post, has a +1/+1 klar listed in his equipment, so, like a normal spiked shield, both the shield and the spikes can be enchanted but must be done separately.
What aobut Shield Master.
Klar states that attacks with the Klar ate treated as shield-spikes/spiked shield, which is a shield bash attack.
Shield master says that attacks with a shield (which a Klar is) use the Shield enhancement bonus as the Weapon attack/damage bonus for attacks.
And T&F lets you keep the shield bonus to AC when you attack, so if you go Shield/weapon Ranger, you get it at Lv 3, but miss out on the rest of the twf chain
Hmm... a lot of options... I actually have a pretty decent TWF Fighter that could easily be modified into a T&F Fighter.
What aobut Shield Master.
Klar states that attacks with the Klar ate treated as shield-spikes/spiked shield, which is a shield bash attack.
Shield master says that attacks with a shield (which a Klar is) use the Shield enhancement bonus as the Weapon attack/damage bonus for attacks.
And T&F lets you keep the shield bonus to AC when you attack, so if you go Shield/weapon Ranger, you get it at Lv 3, but miss out on the rest of the twf chain
Shield Master is pretty sweet for this guy. It would limit how expensive all of his enchantments would be, for sure! So, let's see:
H)Weapon Focus: Klar
1)Weapon Focus: Earthbreaker
2Bonus)Two Weapon Fighting
3)Thunder and Fang......
6Bonus)Shield Master......
10Bonus)Hmmm, I don't know...Shield Bash?
i think im gooing to get some fighter lvls with my half elf barbarian(lvl 1) so i can get it at lvl 4 being able to use a shield aswell as dual wield a 2h and shield spikes seems to be awsome after those 2 fighter lvls ill go back to barbarian(invul rager) lvls :-)
lvl 1 power atack
lvl 2 (bonus fighter1) weapon focus earthbreaker
lvl 3 two weapon fighting (bonus fighter2) weapon focus klar
lvl 4 (fighter3) thunder and fang
this way i have decent atack rols aswell as alot of damage when raging. ill go all barbarrian from there (i should have gone human fighter from the start tho)
Darkflame, you seem to have seen the Thunder and Fang light! I can't blame you, the only problem I have with the feat is that at some point in your career you have to have Weapon Focus with a Two-handed Weapon and a Shield which are clearly useless together...at least until T&F.
It's worth noting, I think, that the version that I was reading at the time of my original post, was way old and that the feat has been updated since. Depending how you look at it, it could be considered worse since you won't be able to attack with your Earthbreaker two-handed without first removing your Klar. However, by the updated wording of the feat, you can now wield the Earthbreaker one-handed. Anytime. With or without a Klar.
And I discovered (but haven't explored) another T&F option: the Skirnir. Not especially Shoanti-flavored, but already very dependent on sword-and-board methods (like T&F!).
Would using thunder & fang feat allow you to use a large earth breaker one handed when used in combination with the Titan mauler's Jotungrip for a -4 penalty?
Also that way you could use a large klar as the feat states you treat your klar as a light weapon.
doesn't jotungrip only work with appropriately-sized weapons?
Would using thunder & fang feat allow you to use a large earth breaker one handed when used in combination with the Titan mauler's Jotungrip for a -4 penalty?
Also that way you could use a large klar as the feat states you treat your klar as a light weapon.
No. Like AndIMustMask mentioned, Jotungrip only works on appropriately sized weapons. It's late so I'm not going to look too deeply into this, but you may want to look into using the Titan Mauler's 3rd level class ability, Massive Weapons, in conjunction with T&F.
i actualy made a human fighter and he wil be using thunder and fang at lvl 2 afther that only paladin lvl's
its more of a roleplay thing i do think barbarian would make more sense from lvl 3 and up
just like to play Paladin will be nice wielding a 2hander a shield and lay on hands yourself during combat using shieldbash and shieldslam at lvl 6 dont forget weapon focus on both earhtbreaker and klar toughter with 2 weapon fighting is -1/-1 at lvl 2 with 16 STR that is +4/+4 with 2d6+3(x3) and 1d6+1(x2) damage and not forget you keep your Ac from your shield at lvl 3 you can buy a +1AC or MWKklar(offense) and earthbreaker maybe both and getting Powerattack aswell but i would rather get some defense as a feat
dot
I am surprised no one suggested getting it at First Level!
Human Fighter can get 4 feats at level one by 1. Normal feat everyone gets. 2. Bonus Feat for the Human. 3. Level 1 Bonus Fighter Feat. 4. Trading in the 2 traits for 1 Feat.
You know, I thought it was on Page 326 in the Advanced Players Guide, but I can not find it. My GM said it was there. However, it just says that 2 traits are the equivalent of a feat. He allowed me to trade in the two traits for the feat. So I am not sure at this point.
but lvl 2 doenst realy take long doese it :-) fighter feats rule for this.
Benefit: You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon. When using an earth breaker in one hand and a klar in your off hand, you retain the shield bonus your klar grants to your Armor Class even when you use it to attack. Treat your klar as a light weapon for the purposes of determining your two-weapon fighting penalty.
Can It be safe to assume you don't even need to use the klar to use the earth breaker as a 1 handed weapon? If that is the case you could potentially dual wield earthbreakers if you felt so inclined, albeit the -4 penalty from twf.
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That is correct, but since you most likely have 20 STR to crush puny men, that is a +5, on top of the +2 BAB, on top of the Weapon Focus, as well as most likely a set of Masterwork Earth Breakers.
so 5+2+1+1=9 Base - 4 TWF = +5/+5 2d6+5/2d6+2. Puny men will fall before pair of kitchen utensils. Me call them Tender and Eyes.
I'm totally stealing this idea for my next fighter.
Just be sure to report back here! I never got around to making my T&F character for whom I started this thread, but I'm eager to hear how a couple of T&F builds worked out off-paper.
I just posted this guy in another thread and he could totes use some tweaking but... not a bad start. Might trade out 2Weapon Fighter for strait fighter and MC Barbarian @3rd and forward just for fun.
Thundar
Thundar the Hammerfang
Male Human (Shoanti) Fighter (Two-Weapon Fighter) 1
CN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +1
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Defense
--------------------
AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 12 (1d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee Earth breaker +6 (2d6+6/x3) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +5 (1d3+4/x2) and
. . Javelin +1 (1d6+4/x2) and
. . Klar +6 (1d6+4/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +5 (1d3+4/x2)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +6; CMD 17
Feats Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Earth breaker), Weapon Focus (Klar)
Traits Bred for War (Shoanti), Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics -2 (-6 jump), Climb +4, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Intimidate -1, Ride -2, Stealth -2, Survival +5, Swim +4
Languages Common, Shoanti
Other Gear Scale mail, Earth breaker, Javelin (4), Klar, Pathfinder's kit, 35 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Javelin - 0/4
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Steal away, i have no idea if or when i'll use him.
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Here is my current character for PFS:
Weapon Master Fighter 4
Favored Class (Fighter): +1 HP per Level
Ability Points:
STR: 20 (18 Base + 2 Racial Trait) - Mod: 5
DEX: 16 (16 Base) - Mod: 3
CON: 14 (14 Base) - Mod: 2
INT: 7 (7 Base) - Mod: -2
WIS: 8 (7 Base + 1 Level) - Mod: -1
CHA: 7 (7 Base) - Mod: -2
HP: 40 (10 Base + 18 (Level 4) + 8 (2 CON Mod x4) + 4 Favored Class)
DR: 0
Speed: 30 ft.
Initiative: 3 (3 DEX Mod)
Skills (2 Base - 2 INT Mod; Min 1):
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 2 (1 Rank + 3 Bonus (Class Skill) - 2 INT Mod)
Knowledge (Engineering): 2 (1 Rank + 3 Bonus (Class Skill) - 2 INT Mod)
Profession (Repo Man): 3 (1 Rank + 3 Bonus (Class Skill) - 1 WIS Mod)
Survival: 3 (1 Rank + 3 Bonus (Class Skill) - 1 WIS Mod)
Racial Traits:
Bonus Feat: Bonus Feat
Heart of the Streets: +1 Racial Bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 Dodge Bonus to AC when adjacent to at least two other allies. (Replaces Skilled Trait) (Advanced Race Guide)
Bonus Traits:
Race - Superstitious (Kellid) - +1 trait bonus on saving throws against arcane spells. (Pathfinder Companion: Humans of Golarion)
Religion - Defensive Strategist (Torag): Never flat-footed when an unaware combatant, including the surprise round and before acting at the start of a battle (Pathfinder Companion: Faiths of Purity)
Feats:
Weapon Focus (Klar)
Weapon Focus (Earth Breaker)
Two-Weapon Fighting - -4/-4 when fighting with 2x 1-H
Thunder and Fang - Earth Breaker is considered 1H
Weapon Guard (Earth Breaker) - +1 bonus to CMD against Disarm and Sunder. This bonus also applies on saves against any effect that targets his chosen weapon
Double Slice - Regular Strength bonus to Damage made with Off-Hand Weapon.
Weapon Training (Earth Breaker) - +1 Attack/Damage with Earth Breaker
Weapon Specialization (Earth Breaker) - +2 Damage with Earth Breaker
Offense:
Earth Breaker (1H) - +8 Attack 2d6+9 Damage
Earth Breaker (OH) - +8 Attack 2d6+9 Damage
8 Attack (1H/OH) = 5 STR Mod + 1 Feat (Weapon Focus) + 1 Masterwork + 4 Base Attack Bonus - 4 (Two-Weapon Fighting) + 1 Class (Weapon Training)
9 Damage (1H/OH) = 5 STR Mod * 1 Damage Multiplier + 1 Class (Weapon Training) + 1 (+1 Weapon) + 2 (Weapon Specialization)
Defense:
AC: 17+1 (10 + 4 Armor (Chain Shirt) + 3 DEX Mod)
Touch: 13+1 (10 + 3 DEX Mod)
Flat-Footed: 14 (10 + 4 Armor (Chain Shirt))
Note: If next to two companions, add another +1 Dodge AC to total (Heart of the Streets Trait).
Never Flat-Footed (Defensive Strategist Trait)
Saving Throws:
Fortitude: 6 (4 Base + 2 CON Mod)
Reflex: 4+1 (1 Base + 3 DEX Mod)
Will: 0 (1 Base - 1 WIS Mod)
Note: If Adjacent to 2 Allies, + 1 Racial to Reflex Saves (Heart of the Streets Trait)
Base Attack Bonus: 4
Spell Resistance: 0
CMB: 9 (4 BAB + 5 STR Mod)
CMD: 22+1 (10 + 4 BAB + 5 STR Mod + 3 DEX Mod)
Note: If Adjacent to 2 Allies, + 1 Dodge to CMD (Heart of the Streets Trait)
If I really wanted to force every opportuinty to damage, I would had set my two traits to be Dirty Fighter Combat Trait from APG, and Militia from Dragon Primer, giving me +1 to Attack/Damage while Flanking. I chose Defensive Stratagist because TORAG! Superstitious because magic is the bane of all fighters.
Would the 2handed fighter ability work with this feat? The earthbreaker is still a 2 handed weapon you just treat it as a one handed.
*first post*
Just started playing Pathfinder (and tabletop games in general) this month and I'm trying to think of the best way to multiclass Foehammer and Flowing monk together with Thunder and Fang.
My goal is to make a build that can Quick BullRush into my free Trip and AoO twice with Vicious Stomp and Greater Trip(Flowing monk is to keep my Unarmed Strike doing decent damage with Monastic Legacy) and use Rhythmic Blows to keep adding to my attack rolls and eventually end with a Greater Sunder against a Flat-Footed (by the Flowing Monks Unbalancing Counter), Prone.
does that sound any good? I'm still getting used to the game mechanics.