So you think the monk is underpowered; what now?


Homebrew and House Rules

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Liberty's Edge

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I've read all threads about the monk, and generally agree that the monk is a less then capable class. (If you disagree, then this is probably not the thread for you.) As a GM, I'd be happy to fix that but I don't have a coherent set of rules changes to make. What type of minimal changes would you make to bring the monk up to a credible meleer -- or to credibly fulfill another role you think they're designed to fulfill but don't?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Oh boy. There are a lot of different ideas on this. Prepare for info dump.

Shadow Lodge

My info dump!
Increase BAB to fast (1:1 progression), change Flurry of Blows to a bonus attack available either on standard attacks or full-attacks (of which may or may not stack with TWF? I dunno), increase the class' HD to d10 per level, and increase the Unarmored Bonus benefits? I don't know about the rest though, sorry.

Scarab Sages

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None. They are fine as they are. And again, I'd like to point out that someone read a bunch of threads where a bunch of negative nellies posted about why the monk is the suxxors and now here we are again.


Well firstly I'd fix that their two main class features flat out don't work with eachother.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Bomanz wrote:
And again, I'd like to point out that someone read a bunch of threads where a bunch of negative nellies posted about why the monk is the suxxors and now here we are again.

Duly noted. However this thread is about suggested changes, and you are off-topic.

Scarab Sages

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Off topic, but right. Its a real burden being this right all the time, let me tell you.

Shadow Lodge

Full BAB, d8 HD.
Grant an actual enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes as a class feature.
Two-Weapon Fighting as bonus feats.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Bomanz wrote:
Off topic, but right. Its a real burden being this right all the time, let me tell you.

Being right in a tabletop game is subjective.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Bomanz wrote:
And again, I'd like to point out that someone read a bunch of threads where a bunch of negative nellies posted about why the monk is the suxxors and now here we are again.
Duly noted. However this thread is about suggested changes, and you are off-topic.

I suggested my change; which is to not have whiners/negative nancies play the Monk class.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Full BAB, d8 HD.

Grant an actual enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes as a class feature.
Two-Weapon Fighting as bonus feats.

They don't need a Full BAB, their special capability for Flurry of Blows makes up for the lack of BAB.

Now you're defeating the purpose of having items like Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Flurry of Blows says hi. Only reason they'd need to go TWF is if they were using actual weapons instead of Unarmed Strikes, and even then Flurry of Blows operates like TWF as it is, so it's very redundant.


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And it took all of about 10 minutes to show how it is virtually impossible to have an intelligent discussion about a class without someone getting obnoxious.

If you don't have something constructive to contribute just go back under your bridge and wait for some billy goats gruff to wander along.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

They don't need a Full BAB, their special capability for Flurry of Blows makes up for the lack of BAB.

Now you're defeating the purpose of having items like Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Flurry of Blows says hi. Only reason they'd need to go TWF is if they were using actual weapons instead of Unarmed Strikes, and even then Flurry of Blows operates like TWF as it is, so it's very redundant.

Don't care.

Don't care.

And I was talking about replacing Flurry of Blows.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
prosfilaes wrote:
What type of minimal changes would you make to bring the monk up to a credible meleer -- or to credibly fulfill another role you think they're designed to fulfill but don't?

Monk Revision.

3.5 Revised Monk.
Kirthfinder Monk.
Monk Secret Techniques.


Gallo wrote:

And it took all of about 10 minutes to show how it is virtually impossible to have an intelligent discussion about a class without someone getting obnoxious.

If you don't have something constructive to contribute just go back under your bridge and wait for some billy goats gruff to wander along.

How is it not constructive to say what a Monk's strengths truly are and how they have a larger superiority over the other classes, and that their strengths make the other classes pale in comparison? It's constructive in that it shows that a Monk doesn't truly need change, but that the player needs it instead. Crazy-level saves, insane AC and unique Style feats, scaling unarmed strike damage to levels that no other character can physically pump out without the use of magic, what the heck more do you want from the Monk?

As a melee class, I would kill to have half the stuff Monks get as Class features and bonuses. The only one that wouldn't is a Paladin, and they're about as broken as it gets.

@Tri: If you really don't care, then that's you. I don't see what the heck a Monk needs "changes" for, since they seem to be just fine and on a competent level as it is.

Liberty's Edge

Please. I said right at top that I'd rather not have the discussion of whether or not monks are weak here, and I really don't think calling monk players "whining nancies" has a place anywhere.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

How is it not constructive to say what a Monk's strengths truly are and how they have a larger superiority over the other classes, and that their strengths make the other classes pale in comparison? It's constructive in that it shows that a Monk doesn't truly need change, but that the player needs it instead. Crazy-level saves, insane AC and unique Style feats, scaling unarmed strike damage to levels that no other character can physically pump out without the use of magic, what the heck more do you want from the Monk?

1: And with nothing to force the enemy to target it you, pure defenses are of little value.

2: Not actually unique, just free, in-fact unarmed fighter gets the same no-requirements thing a Monk does.
3: Ninja gets it. It's also harder to enchant. It also takes till level 16 to outdo the Greatsword any melee type can wield at level 1, and even at 20, it's a huge 4 damage over the greatsword.

Liberty's Edge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
It's constructive in that it shows that a Monk doesn't truly need change, but that the player needs it instead.

Go. Away. Specifically, you were asked not to bring this here, and yet you did anyway. I'm sorry you can't see how that's intrusive, rude, and not at all constructive.

Shadow Lodge

Found some! Though, two of them are for 3.5 >.>"
[3.P] Buffing the Pathfinder Monk by StreamOfTheSky
The DDO Monk by Sor0_Lost
Monk Fix by dman


One of the things I've seen and considered is allowing monks to either:

- Increase their 5ft step range
- Spend a ki point to move as a swift action

There are variations depending on how powerful you want the change to be, but a big disconnect is a monk's mobility and how moving makes them worse at combat. Let them move for free a little extra distance and the issue goes away.

Another option, that instead of making them a solo melee class, make them a teamwork melee class. Give them bonuses to Aid Another, let them do it with faster actions (like a Swift), or to replace an attack, etc. The problem with that is it becomes a one-trick pony and doesn't work for small parties or independently.

Even if monks don't get a permanent enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks, something along the lines of the Paladin's Divine Bond would work well. It's limited in usage per day, but it's effective and provides a big boost when the monk really needs it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

What about allowing the Monk to use Wisdom as their melee & CMB/D modifier?

Shadow Lodge

Burn 1 ki or stunning fist can flurry as a standard action.
The way of combat: at 5th a monk may add half his Wis mod to his atk and dmg rolls with unarmed strikes, at 10th this bonus increases to full wisdom bonus, at 15th this bonus increases to half his wisdom score, and at 20th this bonus increases to his full wisdom score.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Gallo wrote:

And it took all of about 10 minutes to show how it is virtually impossible to have an intelligent discussion about a class without someone getting obnoxious.

If you don't have something constructive to contribute just go back under your bridge and wait for some billy goats gruff to wander along.

How is it not constructive to say what a Monk's strengths truly are and how they have a larger superiority over the other classes, and that their strengths make the other classes pale in comparison? It's constructive in that it shows that a Monk doesn't truly need change, but that the player needs it instead. Crazy-level saves, insane AC and unique Style feats, scaling unarmed strike damage to levels that no other character can physically pump out without the use of magic, what the heck more do you want from the Monk?

As a melee class, I would kill to have half the stuff Monks get as Class features and bonuses. The only one that wouldn't is a Paladin, and they're about as broken as it gets.

@Tri: If you really don't care, then that's you. I don't see what the heck a Monk needs "changes" for, since they seem to be just fine and on a competent level as it is.

The value of what you are trying to convey varies greatly with the manner in which you convey it....


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


TriOmegaZero wrote:

Full BAB, d8 HD.

Grant an actual enhancement bonus to unarmed strikes as a class feature.
Two-Weapon Fighting as bonus feats.

They don't need a Full BAB, their special capability for Flurry of Blows makes up for the lack of BAB.

Now you're defeating the purpose of having items like Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Flurry of Blows says hi. Only reason they'd need to go TWF is if they were using actual weapons instead of Unarmed Strikes, and even then Flurry of Blows operates like TWF as it is, so it's very redundant.

1)Flurry of blow do not compensate the lack of Full BAB, for example the monk needs an aditional ability, maneuver traning, to not suck at maneuvers. Not to mention the monk can not flurry if he move more than 5 ft that round.

2) Amulet of migthy fist is good for an octopus not for a monk, it is too expensive.

3)Flurry is like TWF excep it is somewhat more restrictive, for example you can not take two weapond rend and TW defense. Having the actual feats is better (coupled of course with a full BAB)


The Once and Future Monk

Flurry of Changes to Flurry of Blows

Tattooed Mystic

The top link is the most recent change that I have done to the monk class. I think it holds true with the original concept of the monk class from 1st edition AD&D.

The second thread is a discussion of the monk issues.

The third thread is a different take on the monk, with everything but the bare bones of the class being options represented by magic tattoos. Some folks like it, some don't. Take a look and feel free to use what you want.

MA


Baka Nikujaga wrote:

My info dump!

Increase BAB to fast (1:1 progression)
change Flurry of Blows to a bonus attack available either on standard attacks or full-attacks (of which may or may not stack with TWF? I dunno), increase the class' HD to d10 per level, and increase the Unarmored Bonus benefits? I don't know about the rest though, sorry.

This is similar to me.

Mine is
Increase BAB to full outside flurry.
3.5 version of Flurry; can be done as standard action or full attack action (when standard attack flurry just highest BAB attk and extra attacks from 3.5 flurry: 1st, 11). So stacks with TWFing.
D10 hp
Can wear light armor, but only apply 1/2 Wis mod to AC when do so or unarmored and add full as normal.
No more Monk simple weapons that are exotic Kama (just a sickle); just state those are exotic names for them (because they are).
Monks are proficient in all simple weapons (can flurry with any weapon proficient), flail (call it a nunchaku), Shuriken, and temple sword.
When flurrying, Monks get a level based bonus to hit. Starts at +1, raises by +1 at level 5, 10, 15, 20.
Unarmed damage is 1d6, 4th: 1d6+1, 8th: 1d6+2, 12: 1d6+4, 16th: 1d6+6, 20: 1d6+8. This is instead of larger damage dice.

Slow Fall: "When first gaining this ability, he takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. This distance is dopubled if within 5 ft of a wall."
See it benefits the flavor text, but works outside of a wall. Really Feather fall shouldn't be that much better.

Wholeness of Body: Swift or standard action, your choice on your turn (can do both).

Abundant Step doesn't end turn like Dimension door, but you take a penalty to attack rolls (-6) from being shifted so rapidly.
Dimensional Agility removes this penalty.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Style Feats say hi. Being able to negate whole lines of feats because of said Style Feats say hi.

Indestructible Weapons and limbs say hi. Amazing saves say hi. Greater advantages in certain Combat Maneuvers say hi. Awesome Martial Artist moves say hi.

I'm sorry, what do we need to change about a Monk again, other than the fact that Monk players are a bunch of whiners and negative nancies?

Not a damn thing. Get back to your Emo Corner.

This is one of the most condescending things I've read on these boards in a long while that doesn't even try to contribute to the topic.

I'm impressed, kudos.


I like the idea of adding Wisdom bonus to attack damage. I've never understood Strength as adding one's to-hit modifier; with a Monk, how about giving them automatic Weapon Finesse.

Of course, many of these fixes would entice players even more to take a dip into a level of Monk. I don't think monks should be a dip; they should be cool enough to be desired as the whole enchilada.

As an aside, Master Arminas, I like The Once And Future Monk, but I feel that the requirement for many attributes at 12 or above increases the MAD-ness of the monk, and sets the class further apart from other classes. I would personally be happier with a class that fits better in the same environs as fighters, clerics, and wizards. Of course, this is just my opinion and I'm glad you've put the work into the problem.

I wonder if there are other ways to disincentivize a dip.

I can see how FoB and Fast Movement wouldn't occur in the same round. (Unless you blow a ki point to do so?) I'm just going off watching Ip Man movies of late, but it seems that the flurry is done when a martial artist has a solid stance and a clear opening--in other words, not just after rushing at the opponent.

As a compromise, what if Flurry of Blows was reduced by one blow by Fast Movement? That way, one could Flurry at level 6...well, maybe that's too late. Something like that.

One silly little fix I would like to see is that monks are proficient in all monk weapons. And add Meteor Hammer to monk weapons. That thing is from the Shaolin Temple, for crying out loud.

Props to all of the fix-builders.


wisdom to hit and damage, old fob, 1 ki to full move and full attack(allowing movement between attacks). Fixed


Axolotl wrote:
I like the idea of adding Wisdom bonus to attack damage. I've never understood Strength as adding one's to-hit modifier

It's part of what the AC system models: Armor either blocks a blow entirely, or does nothing. Hitting harder means you have a better chance of breaking through the armor.

Silver Crusade

Personally, one of the biggest problems for the monk is the critical gear dependence in a class that evokes anything but.

As far as helping monks actually feel like monks, here's Ashiel's alternate take on ascetic/Vow of Poverty characters. Especially useful and fitting for monks.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Gallo wrote:

And it took all of about 10 minutes to show how it is virtually impossible to have an intelligent discussion about a class without someone getting obnoxious.

If you don't have something constructive to contribute just go back under your bridge and wait for some billy goats gruff to wander along.

How is it not constructive to say what a Monk's strengths truly are and how they have a larger superiority over the other classes, and that their strengths make the other classes pale in comparison? It's constructive in that it shows that a Monk doesn't truly need change, but that the player needs it instead. Crazy-level saves, insane AC and unique Style feats, scaling unarmed strike damage to levels that no other character can physically pump out without the use of magic, what the heck more do you want from the Monk?

As a melee class, I would kill to have half the stuff Monks get as Class features and bonuses. The only one that wouldn't is a Paladin, and they're about as broken as it gets.

@Tri: If you really don't care, then that's you. I don't see what the heck a Monk needs "changes" for, since they seem to be just fine and on a competent level as it is.

This thread disagrees with yourself and Boman. Boman is good at optimizing, and he claims to have a posted a build online that a noob could make that was decent IIRC, but I could find evidence of such a build.

The style feats are ok, but the fact that the monk needs them as "another monk fix" only shows how bad the monk really is. Now there are archetypes that are ok, but the core monk sucks, and if you don't take an archetype such as the zen archer or the mastery of many styles then the monk does not stand up on its own. Even then it has issues, but less than the core monk. A player should not be forced to use ultimate combat or be a zen archer to have a decent monk build. A player should also not need a high level of system mastery to make the class work. Just to be clear the message is not that the monk is incapable of working. The message is that the amount of effort need is higher than it should be, and most of the time a player is better off picking another class, and calling it a monk.

What advantages does the monk have that help the party? I am sure you will says save and high AC. That just means I ignore the monk and kill the PC's that matter, saving the monk for last.

The paladin is not broken either. If a GM can't deal with the paladin then it is a playstyle issue or a lack of system mastery causing the problem.


These were some of the abilities I used to buff the Monk during my Alpha testing version.

Monk's Stride: Effectively since a Monk is so fast when moving full speed it makes no sense that they can only 5 ft step, so it ended up being an extra 5ft for every 4 or 5 levels I think it topped out at 20ft step. This allows those monks with a move bonus to really control the battlefield.

I also dropped the dimension door penalty from abundant step.

Monk's Wisdom let monks use their Wisdom to modify their attack/dmg instead of relying on STR. Making them less MAD.

Oh and made their unarmed attacks become inherently magical every 4 levels, so at level 20 their unarmed attacks were +5 weapons, in and of themselves, combined with ki powers to cause elemental dmg, this made them not need to buy specific weapons.


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d4 HD
Low BAB
Keep Fort good, nerf Ref and Will
Monks are way too strong as written. It's almost like what was that person thinking when writing them in Core Rulebook?


Ive just been following along casually, but it seems like some level based bonus to hit with unarmed attacks and the ability to eventually penetrate DR without weapons (possibly via one or more feats) might do it.

Given there are apparently effective monk builds if you know what you're doing, I think one should be careful about an across-the-board boost or those builds will presumably become too powerful.


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prosfilaes wrote:
I've read all threads about the monk, and generally agree that the monk is a less then capable class. (If you disagree, then this is probably not the thread for you.) As a GM, I'd be happy to fix that but I don't have a coherent set of rules changes to make. What type of minimal changes would you make to bring the monk up to a credible meleer -- or to credibly fulfill another role you think they're designed to fulfill but don't?

OK, as I see it (and I fully accept that this is subjective) the monk has a number of issues. It is NOT IMPOSSIBLE to build an effective monk, but you have to optimize the sh1t out of it to get just half as good as other classes can get.

The monk's role includes some things that he simply cannot do effectively: striking enemies when they are vulnerable just doesn't seem to work as the monk has trouble striking effectively.

The problems the monk has:


  • MAD as hell. The paladin was de-MADed to need only two stats, strength and charisma, but the monk wasn't, he still needs four (strength, con, dex, wis).
  • Poor availability of enhancement for their supposed major weapon. The AoMF is over priced and cannot be bought piecemeal, and it capped off at +5 to boot. Yes, unarmed strikes are indestructible and cannot be disarmed, but I have yet to run across a dungeon full of sundering, disarming monsters.
  • These two factors combine to make the monk's odds to hit worse than any other melee class - and like it or not, the monk DOES have to get into melee in order to have an effect. It's not like he can sit back and cast spells.
  • On top of that, lower enhancement means getting through DR is tough for the monk. It's not like your fist can be made of different materials, after all.

All that said, the monk does NOT need to turn out the damage of a fighter. He just needs to be able to do something that lets him contribute effectively to the battle. That means hitting the enemy, as the monk's main attack methods all involve this in some form or another, even the maneuvers.

My suggested solutions are:


  • Allow ki-strike to add an enhancement bonus to hit (NOT to damage) to unarmed strikes (or attacks through ki-focus weapons) equal to the monks AC bonus. This is actually still 'behind the curve' a little to what most combat classes will have weapon wise, but it's a big improvement - and hardly broken or classes like the bladebound magus wouldn't be legal. This bonus can stack with the AoMF so that it can add bonuses to damage and effects.
  • Let the monk gain Wisdom bonus instead of strength bonus to hit on attacks with unarmed strikes, monk weapons and maneuvers (not on damage, I stress, just on hitting). This reduces strength dependency without imposing a feat-tax on the monk. It's not much use for druids and clerics, as they cannot make much use of monk weapons.
  • Wholeness of Body should cost 1 ki-point and take only a swift action. This reduces Con dependency much as the paladin's lay-on-hands does for the paladin. Not as good as that, but still useful.
  • For one ki-point, the monk may select a target and strike said target while bypassing it's DR for one minute with their unarmed strike or a ki-focus weapon.
  • I'd consider using flurry attack bonus for single attacks with flurry-able weapons too. It seems very silly to me that you can hit more accurately with them in a full attack than in making a single strike.

These are one-line little fixes that will make a huge difference to the monk. Other fixes I would do are all in this monk redesign I did a while back. Still a work in progress, but useful to look through for ideas if you want.


I think it would be sufficient to make him less MAD.
To do this I'd give out weapon finesse as a bonus feat and let them use wis for damage.

Add to that a hand wrap that works for one hand and uses the same rules as a weapon enchant (same cost, same limitation)would make him work.

Shadow Lodge

my suggestions is to make him able to spring attack while vital striking. this would stop his lack of mobility while doing damage

also a +1 to attack every 6 levels


I honestly don't understand why everyone is always freaking out about monk BAB.

If you are making a full round attack, you essentially have full BAB.

If you are making a CMB check, you essentially have full BAB.

If you are power attacking while making a full round attack, you still essentially have full BAB.

The only situation in which 3/4 BAB ever comes up is when you first fly across the room with your crazy move speed, and thus only have a standard action with which to attack, but so what? Just open with one of those crazy accurate combat maneuvers you get for free or something. Granted, you suck in terms of ranged attacks but I don't think that's where the complaints are coming from here, because the whole concept of the class is about getting up close and personal, and hey, zen archer.

My only real complains with monks are that even with totally crazy bonuses, vertical leaps never get you the height you need to pull flying monsters out of the sky, or show off about not needing a climb check. (When I'm blowing a ki point on it, an acrobatics check of 51 really should just launch me 51' into the air I say!). The other issue is that there really aren't enough practical options for spending money. Bracers of armor, amulet of mighty fists, cloak rings belt, maybe a headband of inspired wisdom, but all the other classes grab that stuff on top of more colorful items that are frankly redundant here.

I wouldn't object to having more HP too, but I've really honestly never found them particularly lacking on that front as-is.


Umbranus wrote:

I think it would be sufficient to make him less MAD.

To do this I'd give out weapon finesse as a bonus feat and let them use wis for damage.

Add to that a hand wrap that works for one hand and uses the same rules as a weapon enchant (same cost, same limitation)would make him work.

That would be a great start, but they would still be behind on enhancement - and paizo have been very emphatic that the monk will get no weapon that replaces the AoMF. Going by WBL, the differences are stark - if you allow max of 1/3 WBL spent on a single weapon/item for a melee class, max 1/2 on weapons for TWFer (and this is generous), then you get:

4th level: +1 weapon - monk -1 behind
5th level: two +1 weapons
6th level: AoMF +1 - all level
7th level: +2 weapon
8th level: two +2 weapons
9th level: +3 weapon at a stretch
10th level: +2 AoMF
11th level: two +3 weapons
12th level: +4 weapon
13th level: +3 AoMF, two +4 weapons
14th level: +5 weapon
15th level: +4 AoMF, two +5 weapons
16th level: +6 weapon, two +6 weapons
17th level: +5 AoMF, +7 weapon

Above 17th level the AoMF can't get any better. From 4th level through to 17th, the monk is at least -1 behind the single weapon (often -2) and usually -1 behind the TWFer as well. That's just to hit, above 16th level they have additional properties as well.


A couple of big ones for me:
1. Allow monks to qualify for feats that need a minimum BAB bonus with their Flurry of Blows progression rather than with their BAB.

2. Every level that a Monk is granted a movement speed increase give them a bonus +5 ft to their 5 ft move.


Googleshng wrote:

I honestly don't understand why everyone is always freaking out about monk BAB.

If you are making a full round attack, you essentially have full BAB.

If you are making a CMB check, you essentially have full BAB.

If you are power attacking while making a full round attack, you still essentially have full BAB.

Big one that is explicitly mentioned in the rules just to put Monks down further: Requirements.

Also of mention is AoOs


deuxhero wrote:
Googleshng wrote:

I honestly don't understand why everyone is always freaking out about monk BAB.

If you are making a full round attack, you essentially have full BAB.

If you are making a CMB check, you essentially have full BAB.

If you are power attacking while making a full round attack, you still essentially have full BAB.

Big one that is explicitly mentioned in the rules just to put Monks down further: Requirements.

Also of mention is AoOs

And let's not forget that the 'full BAB' is at -2 for 'two weapon fighting' which is a poor combat style; then there's the lower hitting stat thanks to MAD which loses you another 1 or 2, and top it off with lack of enhancement (see above) which takes away another 1 or 2, and you end up at around -5 to hit compared to a full BAB class from 2nd through to around 17th level. It's a bit less above and below that I will conceded, but it is ALWAYS down on what a full BAB class can pull out if they have to.


Removed some fighty/aggressive posts. Please don't do this thing and revisit the messageboard rules.

Moved thread.


I'm totally willing to throw Amulets of Mighty Fists under the bus, but I already said I'd like to see more monk-specific/monk friendly gear. I suppose the case can be made that since monks are never spending one single copper on armor and eventually get the best possible base damage from their "weapon" we need to charge extra for their upgrading. Feels like a pretty kludgey fix to me though. Plus, I think you're already paying for the base damage by being min-maxed into 5' reach melee mode, and the lack of armor costs eating into your cash could be offset with something costly that complements their non-combat abilities. Anyway though, that's an equipment issue more than a class issue anyway.

Dabbler wrote:
And let's not forget that the 'full BAB' is at -2 for 'two weapon fighting' which is a poor combat style;

It's not fair to directly compare flurry of blows to two-weapon fighting though. Off-hand attacks, normally, require a light weapon, which halves the bonus from strength and power attack. So... as a fighter who doesn't dig shields, your options are hit once at your full bonus for 1dX+Str and a half, or you can hit twice at -2 for a combined total of 2dX+Str and a half... on full attacks only, after blowing a feat... and another feat every time you get an extra attack... and enchanting that spare weapon up... and then there's DR. You're paying a ton of extra costs that don't apply to two-handing, and all you get out of that is doubling up on the die-roll portion of your damage, which usually is not a significant portion of the total damage a well-oiled melee character is putting out there.

With Flurry of Blows though, you're taking that -2 penalty to hit for two full strength attacks. You're not paying a feat tax, you're not paying for a second weapon, and if you run up against DR, your unarmed attacks (which don't require you to put any weapon you may otherwise be using down) can probably ignore it. Basically, you're just trading -2 to hit for an extra half a str/power attack bonus and full die roll, which I think is worth it more often than not. You can even keep your 1.5 damage mod on standard attacks if you're fighting with, say, a staff (although then you're back to that 3/4 BAB thing, but then again, you can get around the whole issue by starting off with a combat maneuver opener).

It's also worth mentioning, even though it doesn't come up very often, that Flurry of Blows works with shurikens. Off hand, you get cut off after two shots since I think you need to spend a move action at some point to pull more out, but 2 thrown weapons at -2 is still nice. Especially if you're going with bare handed attacks, you can just walk around with a shuriken in each hand, just in case. And if I am forgetting some feat or magic item or something that'd let you get 7 throwing weapons in hand, that's a pretty nice option to have available.

Oh yes, and there's also the ki point for an extra attack option upping the value of flurries somewhat. And the fact that you can use them while grappling.


That part will weaken them, curtailing any feats that are non-team they cannot get for themselves.

In fact, the majority of all the classes are 'solo' per se, the option to use Team Feats are optional to the said character.

They should not be 'forced'....

Irontruth wrote:

One of the things I've seen and considered is allowing monks to either:

- Increase their 5ft step range
- Spend a ki point to move as a swift action

There are variations depending on how powerful you want the change to be, but a big disconnect is a monk's mobility and how moving makes them worse at combat. Let them move for free a little extra distance and the issue goes away.

Another option, that instead of making them a solo melee class, make them a teamwork melee class. Give them bonuses to Aid Another, let them do it with faster actions (like a Swift), or to replace an attack, etc. The problem with that is it becomes a one-trick pony and doesn't work for small parties or independently.

Even if monks don't get a permanent enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks, something along the lines of the Paladin's Divine Bond would work well. It's limited in usage per day, but it's effective and provides a big boost when the monk really needs it.


I may be wrong, but somewhere in the Player's Guide Core or DM section. High and Veritcal jumps are not suppose to go pass the full movement rate *land speed* number of the PC's mobility.

Jumping around as it suggested here at 51' ft, can lead massive abuse by clever and creatively players *I know, I am one of them :)*

I tend to use the environment a lot, to attain further height if doing a straight vertical jump is not feasible.

Plus some folks may forget to add their own height on top of the clearance height of a jump, e.g. attaining a VJ of 8 ft is around DC 32, add that with the PC's own like 5 ft +, and you gaining around 13 ft and some plus inches in height.

If you add some magical equipment or spell, the additional bonus will get you further up or across.

But if you can't reach them, then you can't reach...simple as that.

Googleshng wrote:

I honestly don't understand why everyone is always freaking out about monk BAB.

If you are making a full round attack, you essentially have full BAB.

If you are making a CMB check, you essentially have full BAB.

If you are power attacking while making a full round attack, you still essentially have full BAB.

The only situation in which 3/4 BAB ever comes up is when you first fly across the room with your crazy move speed, and thus only have a standard action with which to attack, but so what? Just open with one of those crazy accurate combat maneuvers you get for free or something. Granted, you suck in terms of ranged attacks but I don't think that's where the complaints are coming from here, because the whole concept of the class is about getting up close and personal, and hey, zen archer.

My only real complains with monks are that even with totally crazy bonuses, vertical leaps never get you the height you need to pull flying monsters out of the sky, or show off about not needing a climb check. (When I'm blowing a ki point on it, an acrobatics check of 51 really should just launch me 51' into the air I say!). The other issue is that there really aren't enough practical options for spending money. Bracers of armor, amulet of mighty fists, cloak rings belt, maybe a headband of inspired wisdom, but all the other classes grab that stuff on top of more colorful items that are frankly redundant here.

I wouldn't object to having more HP too, but I've really honestly never found them particularly lacking on that front as-is.


Island Hopper19 wrote:

I may be wrong, but somewhere in the Player's Guide Core or DM section. High and Veritcal jumps are not suppose to go pass the full movement rate *land speed* number of the PC's mobility.

Jumping around as it suggested here at 51' ft, can lead massive abuse by clever and creatively players *I know, I am one of them :)*

I tend to use the environment a lot, to attain further height if doing a straight vertical jump is not feasible.

Plus some folks may forget to add their own height on top of the clearance height of a jump, e.g. attaining a VJ of 8 ft is around DC 32, add that with the PC's own like 5 ft +, and you gaining around 13 ft and some plus inches in height.

If you add some magical equipment or spell, the additional bonus will get you further up or across.

But if you can't reach them, then you can't reach...simple as that.

Googleshng wrote:

I honestly don't understand why everyone is always freaking out about monk BAB.

If you are making a full round attack, you essentially have full BAB.

If you are making a CMB check, you essentially have full BAB.

If you are power attacking while making a full round attack, you still essentially have full BAB.

The only situation in which 3/4 BAB ever comes up is when you first fly across the room with your crazy move speed, and thus only have a standard action with which to attack, but so what? Just open with one of those crazy accurate combat maneuvers you get for free or something. Granted, you suck in terms of ranged attacks but I don't think that's where the complaints are coming from here, because the whole concept of the class is about getting up close and personal, and hey, zen archer.

My only real complains with monks are that even with totally crazy bonuses, vertical leaps never get you the height you need to pull flying monsters out of the sky, or show off about not needing a climb check. (When I'm blowing a ki point on it, an acrobatics check of 51 really should just launch me 51' into the air I say!).

...

If an obstacle is X feet high your feet still have to clear that distance. You being taller is not a factor.

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