I need your feedback and advice please


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Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Mourne wrote:
For example, if the Winter Witch PrC becomes a reward and I want to play it, I'm not going to play a fighter through that scenario.

So if everybody else feels that way, you're going to have everyone at the table running a witch through that scenario. No rogues, no barbarians, no fighters ...

It's hard to know where to draw the line. On the one hand, I think using detailed information of the contents of a module goes too far. But I'm not sure I want total secrecy. Some modules have a (well-deserved, IMO) reputation for killing characters (and, sometimes, entire parties). Given a total lack of information from the Decemvirate beforehand on how dangerous the mission is, and what might be a good party makeup, despite the fact that these are supposed to be hand-picked teams sent to solve the problem, using out-of-character information is the only avenue to address this shortcoming.

5/5

Todd Morgan wrote:
I completely disagree Kender. That ruins the surprise totally. The way Mike envisioned it was even if they played the scenario with a non-Hellknight class, they could then go back and GM it to get the boon for their actual Hellknight. It was a win-win for both PCs and Coordinators.

Once I had heard the PrC's were going to be boon accessible, I was assuming/hoping that this is how they'd be handled. It makes them truly a reward for the player, not just the character IMO.

4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Joshua O'Connor-Rose wrote:

PS:

There was a goblin pc boon at GenCon! . . . I'm sad.

No goblin Alchemist gleefully tossing mayhem all about the table for you! :-P

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Todd Morgan wrote:
I completely disagree Kender. That ruins the surprise totally. The way Mike envisioned it was even if they played the scenario with a non-Hellknight class, they could then go back and GM it to get the boon for their actual Hellknight. It was a win-win for both PCs and Coordinators.

It might be a win-win, Todd, if that were an easy-to-GM scenario like First Steps or something. But an exclusive goodie isn't good motivation for new GMs. (Half-arsed judges who kill off the party after three encounters will get the same boon as somebody who puts in the time to prep the scenario and run it right.)

And, playing Devil's Advocate:

JohnF wrote:
So if everybody else feels that way, you're going to have everyone at the table running a witch through that scenario. No rogues, no barbarians, no fighters ...

Which actually might be cool.

There are the sorts of adventures you can have if the whole party is capable of mounted combat. Let word get around that the Chronicle sheet includes a cool magical saddle as an exclusive Item Found, and watch the party of mounted fighters, samauri, and cavaliers assemble.

3/5

Telling players that successfully completing a certain scenario (or an extra mission in a scenario) will grant access to a prestige class I believe is a good idea. Your PC is knowingly doing something to gain access to a prestige class. It just makes sense. Which sound better:

'Why did Swiftbrook attend the Rune Carved Key auction ... he was asked to.'
'Why did Swiftbrook journey deep into the Fierani Forest? ... to learn the ways of the Lantern Bearers'

That said, stating ahead of time that a certain magic item or boon is available at the end of a scenario is just crazy.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Captain, Special Projects—Discord

JohnF wrote:
Mourne wrote:
For example, if the Winter Witch PrC becomes a reward and I want to play it, I'm not going to play a fighter through that scenario.

So if everybody else feels that way, you're going to have everyone at the table running a witch through that scenario. No rogues, no barbarians, no fighters ...

It's hard to know where to draw the line. On the one hand, I think using detailed information of the contents of a module goes too far. But I'm not sure I want total secrecy. Some modules have a (well-deserved, IMO) reputation for killing characters (and, sometimes, entire parties). Given a total lack of information from the Decemvirate beforehand on how dangerous the mission is, and what might be a good party makeup, despite the fact that these are supposed to be hand-picked teams sent to solve the problem, using out-of-character information is the only avenue to address this shortcoming.

However, if you don't know that the boon is on the chronicle sheet, how do you know what class to play? You play it with your fighter, see the boon and want it for your witch, so you go around and build a table to GM and then get that boon for GMing. It's a win all around.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Todd Morgan wrote:
I completely disagree Kender. That ruins the surprise totally. The way Mike envisioned it was even if they played the scenario with a non-Hellknight class, they could then go back and GM it to get the boon for their actual Hellknight. It was a win-win for both PCs and Coordinators.

No, it's sometimes a lose for players, as they're the ones who get stuck with the GM who's only doing it for the shinies, rather than because they'd GM the scenario anyway.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas

Todd Morgan wrote:
JohnF wrote:
Mourne wrote:
For example, if the Winter Witch PrC becomes a reward and I want to play it, I'm not going to play a fighter through that scenario.

So if everybody else feels that way, you're going to have everyone at the table running a witch through that scenario. No rogues, no barbarians, no fighters ...

It's hard to know where to draw the line. On the one hand, I think using detailed information of the contents of a module goes too far. But I'm not sure I want total secrecy. Some modules have a (well-deserved, IMO) reputation for killing characters (and, sometimes, entire parties). Given a total lack of information from the Decemvirate beforehand on how dangerous the mission is, and what might be a good party makeup, despite the fact that these are supposed to be hand-picked teams sent to solve the problem, using out-of-character information is the only avenue to address this shortcoming.

However, if you don't know that the boon is on the chronicle sheet, how do you know what class to play? You play it with your fighter, see the boon and want it for your witch, so you go around and build a table to GM and then get that boon for GMing. It's a win all around.

Not necessarily.

First question for you Todd: How many PFS characters do you currently have?

Second question for you: Do you have more than one of them in the same PrC?

Third question for you: If you have two of them in the same PrC, how likely is it that you would have played one of them through a scenario granting access to that PrC, if you didn't have metagame knowledge that scenario X granted Y PrC access?

Fourth question for you: If you had 2 or more PCs that you wanted to be members of the same PrC, how happy would you be with having access to that PrC on one of your other PCs, which was not building toward that PrC; and having to choose which of your Z PCs which would be perfect fits for the PrC is going to be your only member of the PrC?

Some answers from me:
I have 13 active PFS PCs, with one or more Chronicles on them.

I don't currently have any PCs in a PrC or planned to become a member of a PrC. Then again, I have never been a great fan of PrCs, my primary LG PC was in two PrCs because of advice from the CharOp boards, which was essential because of the power creep that LG was suffering from.

However, if there were a PrC I liked, I am not sure how many PCs I would want to have levels in that PrC. Maybe I am strange, I tend to run variations on a theme type characters, so a significant portion of my PFS PCs are all ranged builds. I do try to experiment with other builds, but I tend to gravitate to archer builds.

Then again, many of my non-archer builds tend toward reach or ranged attacks...

TL,DR: The problem with scenario boon access to PrCs is that it still limits it to a maximum of 2 PCs that can join the PrC.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Captain, Special Projects—Discord

kinevon wrote:
Stuff

I have 24 PFS characters, with 25 and 26 on the way.

Currently none of them have PrCs.

I believe you missed my point. If my fighter character played through a scenario with a perfect PrC for my Magus, I would GM that same scenario to add credit to my magus. However, I would NOT read the scenario beforehand to see which character would be best suited for it, instead I would play through it once and go from there.

There are too many options for PFS as it is, I would never double up on PrCs. You miss out on the loads of other options if you do that.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Couldn't an easy fix of getting the boon with X scenario is have the scenario have a second chronicle that can be used with any future class if you can also show the original. To better explain since I think I'm confusing myself, the PrC boon would say in a fillable blank, "Check X chronicle on Y character for validity."

That way a player could build their class the way they'd like the PrC to fit their character. No need to game the system beyond just playing the game to get it on the character they want.

Silver Crusade 2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Daniel Luckett wrote:

Couldn't an easy fix of getting the boon with X scenario is have the scenario have a second chronicle that can be used with any future class if you can also show the original. To better explain since I think I'm confusing myself, the PrC boon would say in a fillable blank, "Check X chronicle on Y character for validity."

That way a player could build their class the way they'd like the PrC to fit their character. No need to game the system beyond just playing the game to get it on the character they want.

Like I posted earlier, completing the scenario grants you a boon transferable to another character of appropriate level. Just fill in their PFS ID number on the boon and call it a day. You earn something special for completing a scenario, but you don't get ambushed and lose out on a cool bonus.


Michael Brock wrote:

At Gen Con, I received quite a bit of feedback, both positive and negative. One of the things that came up a large majority of the time was access to new things. People were unhappy I had not opened up the specific named magic items from the Ultimate equipment. People were angry I had not opened up Hellknight Signifier PrC. I also heard that Chronicle sheets are worthless and people want us to make them count and mean something and be desirable.

With Hellknight Signifier, I originally wanted to have it as a boon reward on a Chronicle sheet and thus did not open access to it when Paths of Prestige was released. I saw the perfect opportunity later in season 4 when the PCs will spend the vast majority of a scenario in a Hellknight compound to actually earn the PrC. If a player didn't earn it during the playing of the scenario, it would give him incentive to GM the scenario and earn the boon. Nothing like putting a carrot in place to recruit new GMs. I thought it was a win for the players and a win for coordinators.

Subsequently, I've learned that a good number of players don't trust in me or the system and would rather just be given cool stuff instead of earning it through play. Not only had I envisioned earning PrCs through play, but also earning unavailable equipment such as the specific named items in UE, the acquiring of new improved familiars such as the faerie dragon, and the like. I hadn't come out and said these things before because I didn't want to spoil some of the cool things we had planned for Season 4. But, I have also learned if I don't share these, there is vitriolic feelings toward me that I am just ruining everyone's fun.

So, I need your feedback and advice. Do you just want me to go back to the old way of doing things and open everything that is not broken to be accessible as soon as the book is released? Would you rather earn cool things through play and have it as a reward on a Chronicle sheet? What is it that you want because it can't be both ways? I've asked in the past for...

I have yet to play a PFS game, but as a person I don't mind waiting for things that are good or exceptional(to also include out of the norm). As an example boons should be for things like non-core races(such as aasimars), powerful prestige classes, and so on. In short I am saying if you are going to make a person wait it should be worth waiting for.

I would also never GM just to get a PrC. Most GM's do it out of enjoyment, and if I did GM(fill in any other example) just to get something, I would stop GM'ing as soon as I got it.

I don't know anything about chronicle sheets yet so I can't comment on those.

PS:No matter what you do someone will be unhappy.

PS2: I am not saying the Hellknight PrC mentioned above is not worth waiting for.

Dark Archive 3/5 **

Chaosthecold wrote:


2) In 3.5 PFS each faction had SPECIFIC magic items available at certain PA levels, maybe make more items unavailable and have factions give access to some of these.

I actually think each faction should have/offer access to certain PrCs, Items, Etc. to its members at certain Fame levels much the same way they have unique vanities.

I mean, are there any Hellknights in a faction besides Cheliax? Eagle Knights outside of Andoran? Living Monoliths outside Osirion? While there certainly aren't PrCs geared heavily towards the newer five factions, they are newer entities. This doesn't mean there won't be in the future, of course. And hell, wouldn't that be an awesome faction reward for the end of a season?

Obviously, anything the factions give access to could still be earned on a Chronicle.

EDIT: Its, not it's. Unnecessary apostrophe!

Sovereign Court 2/5

I think limiting PrC's and named items is an awesome idea, especially when the stars align just right and you get something that fits your character like a glove. If it doesn't then you can GM the scenario.

Other than that I think you're doing a fantastic job Mike and you've more than earned my trust.

5/5

kinevon wrote:

No insult or vitriolk intended, but:

Named magic items, in general, would be fine as a pseudo-random item on Chronicles.

PrCs, on the other hand, are not something, IMO, that should be locked to a random Chronicle, nor given without warning.

My experience with this kind of thing, in a previous OP campaign, was for my fighter-archer, with one level of barbarian, who got access to a specialist barbarian PrC from an AR. While he had a level of Barbarian, he was not built with much of anything "right" for the PrC, and it felt like a waste of time to me for that reason.

Another boon I received was a whole list of things, including special magic items, several PrCs, feats, etc.; with the option to choose ONE of them for my PC. Again, much of it felt like a wastem, especially since several of thew items to choose from were either ones I wanted for my PC, and this was the only source for all of them, or were "junk" from the POV of my PC. This gets frustrating.

At least, in PFS, you don't have to worry about the boon you want being only available on ARs from a region you are not within any feasible method of playing games from...

But, IMO, one of the potential issues is that, in some of these cases, it sounds like the best-case scenario is that only 2 of a player's PCs will ever hace access to the PrC, even if they have more PCs that it would "fit" for, or, even if they only have two, there is a possibility (probability?) that one of the boons for the PrC will get burnt by one of their characters for whom it is not appropriate.

And we won't even go into PrC access boons on chronicles for scenarios of too high a tier, I am going to assume that PrCs won't be unlocked on Tier 7-11 or Tier 12 chronicles...

kinevon is making some good points here.

While I appreciate the effort to make chronicles more rewarding I don't think PrCs make good rewards. In general I expect to be able to use the mateial in Paizo publications when I play PFS. If that expectation is not met to a sufficient degree that is something that pulls me away from PFS and towards APs or a homebrew campaign.

Its a hard balance to strike, but I would rather open up resources than restrict them... balance and campaign flavor issues not withstanding.

Sovereign Court 2/5

The Grandfather wrote:
kinevon wrote:

No insult or vitriolk intended, but:

Named magic items, in general, would be fine as a pseudo-random item on Chronicles.

PrCs, on the other hand, are not something, IMO, that should be locked to a random Chronicle, nor given without warning.

My experience with this kind of thing, in a previous OP campaign, was for my fighter-archer, with one level of barbarian, who got access to a specialist barbarian PrC from an AR. While he had a level of Barbarian, he was not built with much of anything "right" for the PrC, and it felt like a waste of time to me for that reason.

Another boon I received was a whole list of things, including special magic items, several PrCs, feats, etc.; with the option to choose ONE of them for my PC. Again, much of it felt like a wastem, especially since several of thew items to choose from were either ones I wanted for my PC, and this was the only source for all of them, or were "junk" from the POV of my PC. This gets frustrating.

At least, in PFS, you don't have to worry about the boon you want being only available on ARs from a region you are not within any feasible method of playing games from...

But, IMO, one of the potential issues is that, in some of these cases, it sounds like the best-case scenario is that only 2 of a player's PCs will ever hace access to the PrC, even if they have more PCs that it would "fit" for, or, even if they only have two, there is a possibility (probability?) that one of the boons for the PrC will get burnt by one of their characters for whom it is not appropriate.

And we won't even go into PrC access boons on chronicles for scenarios of too high a tier, I am going to assume that PrCs won't be unlocked on Tier 7-11 or Tier 12 chronicles...

kinevon is making some good points here.

While I appreciate the effort to make chronicles more rewarding I don't think PrCs make good rewards. In general I expect to be able to use the mateial in Paizo publications when I play PFS. If that expectation is not met to a...

Wouldn't then a system (like people have mentioned) that signifies Common, Limited and Restricted be the best of both worlds; a system where people can readily see what's limited and restricted?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 *** Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern

Michael Brock wrote:
The problem with hinting that an unavailable archetype, PrC, magic item, et al... might be available sometime in the future as a Chronicle sheet item, is that every month when the new Chronicles release, I receive several hundred emails asking when the unavailable items will become available. If I don't answer each of those emails, then people think I'm ignoring them. If i tell the, in the future, they think im blwoing them off. It's a catch 22 I am trying to find a resolution for.

I know it's far easier said than done, but just accepting that, as Katt Williams says, "haters gonna hate". People are always going to complain if you don't do A, and if you do A other people will complain that B would have been better, ad infinitum.

One trick that helped when I helped run another large-scale gaming group (formerly known as The Camarilla) from the gaming side (Changeling), was to always watch my wording - "we're looking into the possibility of including _____ in the future" but never anything more than that or else players would think it was a given that they'd see it in the next update to our rules addendum.

Another thing that helped me out was that we would give players a timeline for incorporation of new books/releases into rules addenda - something akin to "when book X gets released, we'll start looking into the possibility of including aspects from it for organized play, but that process will take Y number of weeks, and the next rules addendum update is slated for Z weeks/months away, so look for more information closer to Z."

Even if you find something though, just remember that haters are always going to hate, unfortunately.

I'm with Mike Mistele above, I *love* the idea of having rewards that actually depend on Roleplay and in-game performance rather than just blanket-approval for anyone to make. Than again I've always been a "roleplay > rollplay" and "story > rules" kind of player, and I know not everyone is.

Either way, never forget that the complainers are usually a vocal minority, and many of those who you don't hear from don't say anything because they're happy with how things are.

5/5

Roac wrote:
stuff...

Maybe, but it all depends on the execution. PFS has to stay fresh.

As it is I am stuck with far too many characters which by most standards are obsolete. I think we have sufficient general restrictions in PFS.
I think Mike should limit restrictions to balance and flavor issues.

Grand Lodge 1/5

Having played PFS for about a year now what I have noticed mostly is actually the chronicle sheets items aren't worth the effort.

I just hit level 12 for the first time yesterday. And if I look at his development over the year passed I believe I only once used the chronicle sheet to buy anything and that was because I basically messed up.

Where am I going with this then?

Basically that the balance of the game should be placed on the chronicle sheets. Thereby making it possible for players to find COOL stuff they actually need during their time as a pathfinder. On top of that COOL boon sure why not. I understand people want to try all the new stuff coming out but often when something just been published there are some smaller issues to fit the balance. I therefore like the limited way of implementing these thing via Chronicle sheets.

Just how awesome wouldn't it be to sit down at a table and one of the Pathfinders pulls out this really cool item he just were able to buy (of his previous Chronicle sheet) - The table would go WOW - we are SURELY playing that scenario next time.

In other words I pretty much vote for MORE restrictions :-)

2/5

Todd Morgan wrote:
That ruins the surprise totally. The way Mike envisioned it was even if they played the scenario with a non-Hellknight class, they could then go back and GM it to get the boon for their actual Hellknight. It was a win-win for both PCs and Coordinators.

At a minimum, it should not be a surprise that a mission is in cheliax, and might make the hellknights look positively on you. In my area, people will probably not get a chance to run a game after the initial 3-4 tables of the game are played simultaneously. Maybe they can talk a con organizer into letting them run something within a month or two...but if I were playing a wrong character and then had to work to GM the mod, I would not get nearly the satisfaction as if I simply played the mod with the character I wanted the boon on. Honestly, it would feel sort of like I bought the boon instead of earning it through play.

Frankly it would annoy me for my enchanter to become hellknight eligble when my hellnight wantabe isn't. That isn't a good surprise for something that is balanced enough for Mike to think about simply making always available.

5/5

DickovDK wrote:

....

In other words I pretty much vote for MORE restrictions :-)

I am pretty sure that would not only topple the balance at the core of Pathfinder RPG, it would also destroy PFS.

I would love to see Mike and Mark come up with original boons for chronicle sheets rather than use chronicles to unlock material players have already bought and payed for.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Having to deal with the gripes I get from players who find out that certain items archtypes and traits are not allowed in PFS play (Scribe Scroll and Magical Knack being the most common complaints.) I don't think banning anymore than necessary is a good idea, because then you make us GM's become the bad guys. We already are bad guys in most players eyes when do what is written in the adventure, and have a high rolling dice day. So to main topic, I think that perhaps keeping it the way it is fine to me, but be better with more elaboration, for those "gripers" out there.

Now I think a few players already mentioned the LG's way of doing it: Core, Limited, and Banned. I think maybe it's time to go to that standard. Do you have any idea as is how hard it is to look through additional resources to begin with? And then to have to interpret "except for" or "allowed including" that can make anyone easily confused. I think that if we are going to keep expanding it, we should do this:

Example: Ultimate Equipment
Legal:
All items from Chapter 1 and 2-may be used in different functions in Society Play.
Certain items may be purchased via Fame Score: (insert items here)

Limited:
Guns: Must have gunsmithing feat.. Guns are not considered "Always Available" items
Poisons: Only for archtypes that have it as a class feature.
The following items may show up in a chronicle sheet, but cannot be purchased via Fame: (list items)

Banned:
The following items due to evil nature: (list goes on)
Large weapons, certain familiars, etc.

I think perhaps it's time to not change, add or take away from our list, but to update it to make it more reader friendly as well as give players a better understanding as to what could be out there, and what could be eligible to you in the future through Fame or Chronicle. And which ones are never going to be allowed.

Sovereign Court 3/5

So first I'll say I haven't read the entirety of this thread though what I did read is some pretty good input.

My favorite thing on a chronicle is always something weird or unique and its even better when its at a weird price. For example the chronicle has a wand of lightning bolt on it for a reduced price but it only has say half its charges.

Many times the chronicle comes with run of the mill things, such as potions and cloaks of resistance. Items we can easily can access to ourselves either from them already being available or from already having the fame. So its hard to believe that the chronicle will come with something other than gold, xp, and PA.

Dark Archive 4/5 Venture-Captain, Special Projects—Discord

The Grandfather wrote:
DickovDK wrote:

....

In other words I pretty much vote for MORE restrictions :-)

I am pretty sure that would not only topple the balance at the core of Pathfinder RPG, it would also destroy PFS.

I would love to see Mike and Mark come up with original boons for chronicle sheets rather than use chronicles to unlock material players have already bought and payed for.

Really???? It would destroy PFS to limit PrCs, Archetypes or Equipment. Really?

Silver Crusade 5/5

Just going to post this here: In my still weary state. I'm going to have to come back to all of this and try and post in a more coherent state. I'm still wiped from Gencon. I'm having trouble processing all of the thoughts and comments. lol

5/5

Todd Morgan wrote:
The Grandfather wrote:
DickovDK wrote:

....

In other words I pretty much vote for MORE restrictions :-)

I am pretty sure that would not only topple the balance at the core of Pathfinder RPG, it would also destroy PFS.

I would love to see Mike and Mark come up with original boons for chronicle sheets rather than use chronicles to unlock material players have already bought and payed for.

Really???? It would destroy PFS to limit PrCs, Archetypes or Equipment. Really?

No.

Limiting item purchase to items on chronicle sheets would!

EDIT: severely limiting access to archetypes would probably damage the PFS too.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas

Lady Ophelia wrote:

Having to deal with the gripes I get from players who find out that certain items archtypes and traits are not allowed in PFS play (Scribe Scroll and Magical Knack being the most common complaints.) I don't think banning anymore than necessary is a good idea, because then you make us GM's become the bad guys. We already are bad guys in most players eyes when do what is written in the adventure, and have a high rolling dice day. So to main topic, I think that perhaps keeping it the way it is fine to me, but be better with more elaboration, for those "gripers" out there.

Now I think a few players already mentioned the LG's way of doing it: Core, Limited, and Banned. I think maybe it's time to go to that standard. Do you have any idea as is how hard it is to look through additional resources to begin with? And then to have to interpret "except for" or "allowed including" that can make anyone easily confused. I think that if we are going to keep expanding it, we should do this:

Example: Ultimate Equipment
Legal:
All items from Chapter 1 and 2-may be used in different functions in Society Play.
Certain items may be purchased via Fame Score: (insert items here)

Limited:
Guns: Must have gunsmithing feat.. Guns are not considered "Always Available" items
Poisons: Only for archtypes that have it as a class feature.
The following items may show up in a chronicle sheet, but cannot be purchased via Fame: (list items)

Banned:
The following items due to evil nature: (list goes on)
Large weapons, certain familiars, etc.

I think perhaps it's time to not change, add or take away from our list, but to update it to make it more reader friendly as well as give players a better understanding as to what could be out there, and what could be eligible to you in the future through Fame or Chronicle. And which ones are never going to be allowed.

LG had a "simple" mechanic.

Open (equivalent to the PFS Always Available list, but it included items of a serious magical nature)
Closed (Banned items, simlar to the stuff that is outright not legal for PFS, like the Spellslinger, etc.)
and, the hardest area to deal with (most confusing, IMO): Non-Open, Non-Closed. These were the items that weren't outright illegal/banned from play, but had only limited access, unlocked by appearing on the Adventure Record for a specific scenario.

For PFS to do a similar list, you would wind up with not just the 10-12 page list that LG had, but you would wind up with not only a long list, but a very confusing list.

Always Available
Available with Sufficient Fame
Available only from Chronicles
Never Available

With divisions by source book.
Updated monthly.

Grand Lodge 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Prestige classes shouldn't be available via chronicle sheets. Once you take this approach for one prc, because 'it's cool' you have to start thinking about taking the same approach for all of them. I know there's a lot of potential for a Hellknight Signifer scenario, but it can be handled better.

Pro/Con list for Prc Chronicle sheets:

PRO:
-Allows a chance to explore their place in Golarion, their philosophy.
-Follows the original intent of Prc classes as an elite group.

CON:
-Creates an inflexible system based upon being able to play a session or not. Presumably the scenario would be 1-5 to ease this.
-Creates a situation where players will demand a PFS GM prepares the scenario for play before a certain point in their characters advancement. ("You gotta GM it next weekend so I can get it at 6th!")
-Is not uniform with other Prc classes or any older systems or rules.
-Creates barriers that stops Paizo customers from being able to use their Paizo products straight away.
-Creates issues for players who don't want to waste the chronicle on a PFS character that doesn't want to be a Hellknight Signifer.

Chronicle sheets should cover:
-Unique magic items.
-Unique prestige service rewards.
-One time D20 roll boosts.
-Permanent minor skill boosts.
-One time service for a character.

If you want to get a cool Hellknight Signifer PFS scenario, why not make the chronicle boon be an awesome mask or armour for Signifer characters? That seems more elegant to me. You still attract the signifer characters with a cool world-building scenario with a great reward, and you don't have any of the inflexibility.

5/5

Michael Brock wrote:
The problem with hinting that an unavailable archetype, PrC, magic item, et al... might be available sometime in the future as a Chronicle sheet item, is that every month when the new Chronicles release, I receive several hundred emails asking when the unavailable items will become available. If I don't answer each of those emails, then people think I'm ignoring them. If i tell the, in the future, they think im blwoing them off. It's a catch 22 I am trying to find a resolution for.

That's never going to stop. I'm not kidding. If it's not this issue it will be something else. That, sadly, comes with being an organizer in any situation where people have a massive sense of entitlement, which is to say, almost any situation.

Want an email screener? We can work something out. One boon of my choice for every hundred form letters I save you the trouble of having to send? ;p

3/5

I concur that PrC's are not appropriate boons for chronicles unless you can apply it to another character. There is even a precedent for this from Eyes of the Ten, so there is not really any reason that it could not be done again.

Chris Mortika wrote:

Mourne, it's not just extra planning ("I need to avoid playing my hammer fighter today, so that he doesn't level out of an opportunity to play the scenario with the cool bashing-weapon enhancement...") but it's planning using information that the player shouldn't even have ("There's a boon in scenario 4-39 that bestows a cool bashing-weapon enhancement.")

That's what I'm concerned about: if it's okay to cherry-pick a PC to get a boon, is it all right to cherry-pick a paladin for that adventure where the party is surprised to fight dragons, undead, and demons?

Is it okay to ask around and find out what challenges and boons a scenario provides, before sitting down to the table and playing?

I don't see this as a problem, especially because you can only play a scenario once and DM it once. It happens and it is going to happen. I would argue that it should happen if things like PrCs and large swaths of equipment are going to be accessible from boons only.

I am very leery of the "just DM it" argument since that is going to lead to a) DM's phoning it in just to grind out what they want and b)only the few scenarios with really cool rewards ever being run, just ad nauseum. Bad idea.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Mr Brock.
Short answer. If i don't earn it, i don't appreciate it. Personally, make me earn it.
Also, who really likes broken things? I like them to be tested, tried, and true.

Sovereign Court 3/5

Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
The problem with hinting that an unavailable archetype, PrC, magic item, et al... might be available sometime in the future as a Chronicle sheet item, is that every month when the new Chronicles release, I receive several hundred emails asking when the unavailable items will become available. If I don't answer each of those emails, then people think I'm ignoring them. If i tell the, in the future, they think im blwoing them off. It's a catch 22 I am trying to find a resolution for.

That's never going to stop. I'm not kidding. If it's not this issue it will be something else. That, sadly, comes with being an organizer in any situation where people have a massive sense of entitlement, which is to say, almost any situation.

Want an email screener? We can work something out. One boon of my choice for every hundred form letters I save you the trouble of having to send? ;p

So true. People will always complain. Just get someone to screen out the complainers in your inbox or make up a canned response for them.

5/5

Wennalonn Fordaryde wrote:

Mr Brock.

Short answer. If i don't earn it, i don't appreciate it. Personally, make me earn it.
Also, who really likes broken things? I like them to be tested, tried, and true.

Yeah, but how happy are you when you earn something that turns out to be broken because nobody else has earned it yet and therefore it hasn't been tested?

Sczarni 3/5

Michael Brock wrote:
The problem with hinting that an unavailable archetype, PrC, magic item, et al... might be available sometime in the future as a Chronicle sheet item, is that every month when the new Chronicles release, I receive several hundred emails asking when the unavailable items will become available. If I don't answer each of those emails, then people think I'm ignoring them. If i tell the, in the future, they think im blwoing them off. It's a catch 22 I am trying to find a resolution for.

In the Additional Resources list you could provide at the top (and at the top of each page in the PDF version) a message stating something to the effect of, "There are many features of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game system that are available in our additional sourcebooks. Some of these are only granted for legal Pathfinder Society use to players who participate in certain events or scenarios. If something is not legal according to this list, it may later become legal for play through the use of a boon. Please do not contact the campaign coordinator with questions as to when something will become legal, and if you feel you must discuss the legality or illegality of certain features of the game, please visit the Paizo messageboards at (url)."

Maybe that's a little wordy...

Sczarni 2/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

My experience with customer service is that everyone wants to talk to the guy in charge, no matter how minor the problem is, because they believe they have the right to do so (Gosh Dangit!) If the guy in charge really does have to deal with all of that, they can't do their job. That is why I had a job at that time, so that the guy in charge could get their job done.

My experience also tells me that you can't please everyone. You will always have the idiot that looked at the wrong label for the hotdogs. You will always have the person that complains about the coupons you are giving away for free. You will always have the guy who storms out of the store yelling about how he isn't going to ever come back because of something stupid that hurt his pride.

Maybe having someone who could screen the emails would be a good idea, but I doubt that Paizo would be willing to hire someone just for that if they don't already have someone there doing it.

As for your original request for feedback:
I honestly don't play that often, but I love seeing items on the chronicle sheets that are unique and outside of the typical items. I honestly thought that all of the books outside of the Core hardcovers were only accessible through boons and I loved that idea. I was a little disappointed to discover I was wrong. Opening everything up for everyone destroys the unique feeling that you achieved something and found a unique item. The Axebeak boon in Quest for Perfection was so cool that I wanted to create a character that could take advantage of that. The flowers in Frost Fur Captives made me oo and ah.

I really enjoy the thought that prestige classes can only be gained by playing certain scenarios. This makes things more personal and exciting when your character has really achieved something you set a goal to do. Without an in game reason for the class, there doesn't seem to be much of a victory or sense of accomplishment.

As for announcing when these special boons will be available, just say that there are plans but that you would rather have it be a surprise. Announcing anything more than that would ruin the sense of discovery that you wish to foster among the game.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

I'll agree with most of the people

1) You're doing a great job and its much appreciated. You can't please all the people. Ignore the whiners to the extent possible.
2) Making the chronicle sheets count is very much a good idea
3) Telling us in advance approximately what you're considering is definitely a good idea. I agree with the suggestion that this can be put into the Additional Resources Page, ESPECIALLY for things that require planning (such as prestige classes).

So, I think something like :

The following prestige classes will likely be made available in Season 4 as part of a Chronicle Sheet. We will NOT say when. If, due to unforseen events, it turns out that they are not part of a Chronicle then they will be made available no later than the beginning of Season 5.

Combine that with very broad hints in a scenario description.

That allows us to create a character aimed at a prestige class knowing that we'll be able to get it sometime this season. It lets us decide to play the scenario that looks like it will be the entry point. And it makes chronicle sheets fun.

5/5 Venture-Captain, Australia—ACT—Canberra

Just a thought that I do not believe has been brought up. For those of us who live outside the continental United States and therefore have no way of travelling to big cons such as GenCon and PaizoCon as much as we would like to, ($3000 and up for flights alone is a bit much) but who run multiple mods every two weeks, is some way to get a little reward. Some of us do not have the time due to family commitments to be VO's but still run lots of games. Maybe something nice for the GM's who run the Specials perhaps? It does not have to be anything huge, just something to recognise the extra effort, hence limiting it to the specials where you normally get those who love running games and put in the extra work.

Having said that, the current system is better than the Greyhawk system where people were rewarded for being able to pay for long international flights to other regions with better access.

Keep up the good work, we trust your heart and mind are in the right place.

Scarab Sages

Michael Brock wrote:
The problem with hinting that an unavailable archetype, PrC, magic item, et al... might be available sometime in the future as a Chronicle sheet item, is that every month when the new Chronicles release, I receive several hundred emails asking when the unavailable items will become available. If I don't answer each of those emails, then people think I'm ignoring them. If i tell the, in the future, they think im blwoing them off. It's a catch 22 I am trying to find a resolution for.

People in positions of authority have been dealing with that forever, so I am afraid you are probably out of luck there. Welcome to life as a public figure!

I've not played that many games, but I'd love to see more interesting/useful items on sheets. At the first tier most of them seem to let me buy things on the always available list for full price, which is not really interesting. PrC's seem a little more dubious to me. If people don't know what they will get in advance it seems like people getting it for a totally unsuitable character will be more common that being able to use it. For items that's not so big a deal since there are a lot of toys to go around and many items are on more than one sheet. But a one of a kind PrC? I'm guessing that is going to be an unpleasant surprise to as many people as not. Maybe I am wrong, I am far from the most experienced player here.

Shadow Lodge

Alexander_Damocles wrote:
Like I posted earlier, completing the scenario grants you a boon transferable to another character of appropriate level. Just fill in their PFS ID number on the boon and call it a day. You earn something special for completing a scenario, but you don't get ambushed and lose out on a cool bonus.

Would this mean you're limited to two characters who can advance in the Prestige Class if we followed your recommendation? Just for the sake of clarification.

5/5

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Would you really want three Signifiers? :P

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

After Kyle kills the first two? Yeah!

Shadow Lodge

<:3
If I ever get back to playing...it'd be more for the benefit of the players whose characters die than my own.

5/5

*giggle* I've only ever been killed once by Kyle! Nyah!

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Nani Pratt wrote:
*giggle* I've only ever been killed once by Kyle! Nyah!

Just to be clear - which Kyle are we talking about here?

Dark Archive

I dislike that a pc who is now made level 12 cannot now, nor ever will gain access to take this as his 12th level or later for the expanded modules.

You may not have a pc of the right level for this mod. You may have to play another pc for level or role reasons. If you keep waiting, you may find yourself out of local players to play/ GM it with.

I think it is hypocritical to ignor special requirements to join a prestige class but require playing a specific adventure. Do you really want to encourage people to have an attitude about having to do a special adventure to do what they want and ignoring any other adventure in which they pass those specific requirements?

What about people who want multiple pcs for this class. Not everyone is happy playing every class. I have begun recycling pc designs because most of the classes/archetypes do not meet my standards to be worth playing. Last I recall, you had to do GM credit for another faction other than what you played through with it. Did the new society guide change that? Oh, so now I see something about playing the game with whatever and applying the access to someone else. What sense does that make, the pc going for the prestige class does not even earn it themself?

 I feel that I am forced down narrow lanes by being refrained from what I can buy in video games. Having to deal with very limited lists. If the item is so desired, charge more for it but do not tell me I cannot buy it unless it is illegal to sell or I am outbid. I love that with enough prestige, I can buy almost anything I want that is within reason in society. I hate having to make due with what someone else thinks is ok treasure. They are not playing my pc. If i am suppose to design my pc, let me choose how i spend my money. That is often as important as me choosing feats and classes. I hate the idea of having to play a certain scenario to get a particular item. This encourages people to tell each other what is available where so we do not miss out on anything that is useful. I also feel it would justify resentment of having to jump through hoops that are not listed in the price of the item.

I feel you made an error and hope you open this class and these items up. Why should some options be punished with restricted access while others are open to everyone just cause you could not come up with a challenge for them?

If you want chronicles to be worth something(since almost everything is an item your prestige should grant you access to already) have it give an early discount, let the item grant access a few fame points early or at a reduced price in gp. Or maybe grant access a year early but no more than that before it opens to everyone.

Raymond M. Lambert

Grand Lodge 4/5

Doug Miles wrote:
Keep the lid on the cookie jar as long as you can. I think that one of the mistakes that Josh made was to open up everything early in the campaign and not control access. It's hard on the players to take stuff away once it is given, as we saw with the recent bans. Keeping the cookie jar on top of the fridge is a policy I am completely behind. Delayed gratification will keep PFS healthier in the long run.

Absolutely agree. The only hard and fast reality is players want everything, all the time and as much as they can get. I'm not saying this to sound mean or negative. It's a simple, true reality. All the old LG campaign leadership will attest to it.

Mike, I think you're doing great. Keep doing what you're doing. You're always going to get players asking for more. You'll always have players say it's not enough no matter how much you access you give them. You have the big picture and can implement your vision. Players can only see things at ground level. Players need to trust in you and your long term plan.

Now, talking about complaints I have only one, access is playing alternate races. I wish that didn't exist. But I know I'm in the minority, perhaps. Please keep that available only as special boons.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Raymond Lambert wrote:
I think it is hypocritical to ignor special requirements to join a prestige class but require playing a specific adventure.

I entirely disagree. Requiring PCs to do a related mission to interact with that organisation/prestige class/required foe is the best way to simulate the role-playing requirements of the prestige classes in an organised play environment.

Quote:
Last I recall, you had to do GM credit for another faction other than what you played through with it. Did the new society guide change that?

If that has ever been a rule, it certainly isn't now and hasn't been for at least a couple of years.

Quote:
Oh, so now I see something about playing the game with whatever and applying the access to someone else.

I'm assuming that's a suggestion to someone upthread, as it's not a current rule.

Quote:
I feel that I am forced down narrow lanes by being refrained from what I can buy in video games. Having to deal with very limited lists.

Every month, more and more items are available for purchase, either on the always available list, or with enough fame. The list only ever gets longer as time goes on, never shorter. How did you cope in season 0 or 1 when the additional resources lists were much smaller (or non-existent)?

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Hey there, Raymond. I missed seeing you at GenCon this year.

If I parse your meaning, your concern goes as follows: a scenario with "play this Prestige Class" boon is going to be either Tier 5 - 9 or perhaps Tier 7 - 11. (For Prestige Classes with pre-requisites that can't be met till 7th Level). If a PFS player wants to apply that prestige class to his high-level character (say, someone going through "Academy of Secrets"), he won't be able to, because even if he GMs that scenario, he won't be able to apply that Chronicle to the PC in question, because the character will be out of tier.

Did I understand that correctly?

The rest of your concerns have been addressed up-thread. And from my perspective, there is tremendous open space for character concepts in PFS, even without a couple of prestige classes. You're going to have to be much more convincing to offer any credible evidence that "we need these two or three prestige classes open to everybody, because that's the only way to let people play the characters they want."

Grand Lodge 4/5

I just read the Hellknight Signifer class from Paths of Prestige.

Dear God. Matt Goodall, I am blown away.

It is the coolest g+%$&%n prestige class I can ever remember reading. I honestly can't remember a Prestige class that had more flavor mixed in with working rules.

It's not broken and on the power scale it's equivalent with going straight core. There's no weird rules malarkey going on here. Enemies that rely on illusions and trickery are going to get assiduously gazed at and hammered by a Signifer, but apart from that, they're on the same level as everyone else. Their strongest powers are defensive, not offensive, and even then they have spell caster HP so there's nothing to show off with.

PFS would really be missing out if there were onerous barriers stopping people from playing Signifers. They are seven layers of awesome. I can see why you'd want a special Signifer module!

There's going to be a lot of embittered Chelish clerics and wizards crying for retraining rules once they read up on this class!

Grand Lodge 4/5

I really want to play one! @_@

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