I know folks here want some concrete examples, but I am not quite ready to give them as I am still hammering away on some core elements of the system.
I'm still curious whether you already have in mind what a demon lord (for example) will look like, or if you're starting off with mythic level abilities for PCs and then the power level of demon lords will be fixed as "tough enough to challenge a mythic level X PC".
For example, the champion can get an ability that makes it so that he does not automatically miss on a natural 1.
I've been approaching the whole Mythic Rules thing with a totally open mind, aware that the bits and pieces we're seeing thus far are so few and incomplete that there's no way we can form an informed opinion one way or another.
I've got to say, though, that this particular ability kills one of my personal sacred cows. This does not mean that I'm changing my position of wait and see but it did cause a little ripple in my casual interest.
Still intrigued to see the actual playtest when it becomes available, though.
For example, the champion can get an ability that makes it so that he does not automatically miss on a natural 1.
Ah, Bruce Lee's special ability. I'm certain he had far, far, far less than a 5% failure rate on attacks against mooks. Maybe he used the exploding dice concept.
I've got to say, though, that this particular ability kills one of my personal sacred cows. This does not mean that I'm changing my position of wait and see but it did cause a little ripple in my casual interest.For example, the champion can get an ability that makes it so that he does not automatically miss on a natural 1.
That particular cow was killed in in the 3.5e SRD in the divine powers. A creature with sufficient rank did not auto fail on a 1. If these mythic rules make such a power available to level 2 or higher mythic characters, it'll be pretty darn similar to 3.5e in this regard.
I'm so glad that some of the mythic classes are gaining the ability to not automatically miss on a natural one. What kind of hero misses 5% of the time against minions?
May I suggest that many mythic characters should not be able to auto fail a save with a 1 vs a non mythic character? Or maybe make it so that if you use mythic power to add to a dice roll it no longer auto-fails on a 1? The idea that a CR 30 near god-like being has a 1 in 20 chance of automatically failing any given save and possibly dying against something far weaker than him just bothers me.
Sorry folks, slight typo on my part. That champion ability only works when the attack is made against non-mythic creatures. Still handy though.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Ahh, thanks for the clarification. Lol, seems like I had the right idea when I started wondering if mythic characters were really still going to have to worry about rolling 1s against non mythics.
Yea, it is probably better to implement this through abilities rather than just giving it to all mythics.
There was some mention of the chance to get off-path abilities, so if the Champion gets that early, everyone else will probably be able to get it eventually.
On a related note, I want my mythic wizard's fireballs to torch even those non-mythic mooks that have improved evasion. :) (I think that's already been mentioned in the suggestions thread.)
I'm certain that there will be archetypes for the different paths. Either that, or each path will have a list of things you can take each level (kind of like the Eidelon) and you build up your abilities as you level.
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I too am concerned that the (admittedly brief) information we have about mythic /day uses will encourage single big ability score characters. I would suggest either a flat rate for all characters, or base it on the ability generation method for the campaign. That would allow the GM to adjust the power level without pigeonholing PCs. It could even just be a seperate "mythic" power level choice the GM makes when choosing things like ability generation and advancement rate.
Example based on point buy names :
low fantasy 3/day
standard or rolled stats 4/day
high 5/day
epic 6/day
Although I'm trying to wrap my mind around a low fantasy mythic campaign. I suppose you could really go for a "dirt farmer saves the world" feel. Now that I've typed that I'm envisioning a game where total peons become The Chosen Ones.
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Mythic commoners!
20 levels of commoner and 10 levels of archmage would make an amusing character. (Ok, maybe 20 levels of adept. I suppose you need some magic before you start trying to apply mythic metamagic.)
I really wish I could remember one of the low-level mythic examples I had thought of. Maybe I'll come across it again some time.
(Actually, not the one I had thought of earlier, but in Kaito Saint Tail, Saint Tail is almost certainly low-level, but I could see her being a mythic character among an otherwise non-mythic cast.)
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The female cleric in the Dragonlance novels would be a low-level mythic character. She had abilities nobody else had, but was not a high level character.
Sorry folks, slight typo on my part. That champion ability only works when the attack is made against non-mythic creatures. Still handy though.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Good.
This mean you still keep the tension when facing mythic creatures (boss fights), but at the same time speed up the game when you fight mooks. I actually like the idea that you can auto fail, but in some situations it's just boring. Like when fighting hordes of mooks.
The female cleric in the Dragonlance novels would be a low-level mythic character. She had abilities nobody else had, but was not a high level character.
Goldmoon? No she was just a human cleric.
Remember these book characters were actually someones PCs in that campaign.
I agree using the top stat is not a good idea. How about either a flat number or using the average of all your scores?
Using the average would (usually) significantly bring it down. I might suggest simply presuming that your top stat is "X" for the purposes of this (let's say starting with "5") at a given level. This, then, increases as you level up, at rate your ability scores might. This helps it be less "swingy" based on different stats.
Since we don't know the rules, yet (I'm impatient to see them! :D) one possible interaction is with such spells as the <Animal's> <Attribute> spells (ala Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc) that might alter this. I suspect it will only be "permanent" changes (i.e. those similar to magic items worn for a full 24 hours) so spells won't affect it in some way, but that's just going at a guess.
I'm really psyched about these mythic levels, though, and very hopeful.
(EDIT: Note, I'm not saying that my idea should be implemented: I haven't even seen the rules in play, yet! I'm saying that, based only off of the limited ideas I've seen so far, it mine might be better. Of course, then again, it might not! I've got to wait and see!)
The female cleric in the Dragonlance novels would be a low-level mythic character. She had abilities nobody else had, but was not a high level character.Goldmoon? No she was just a human cleric.
Remember these book characters were actually someones PCs in that campaign.
Irrelevant.
From the perspective of the book and the other characters in the book, she was a mythic character, but had little power beyond her mythic abilities. She could do things nobody else could do, even people vastly more powerful than her.
That makes her an excellent example of a low-level mythic character. The game system she existed in is irrelevant to the book itself, which told the story of those characters, and within that world it told the story in, she had mythic abilities which nobody else had, and were considered lost forever.
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Although I noted one thing from JJ's post.
The adventure path will be for Mythic use only.
So not all the material will be usable either with or without Mythic.I have heard a few different rappers use the neologism 'overstand'. I like it.
You may be overstanding JJ, I would wait and see.
Just how the Worldwound adventure path interacts with the Mythic rules I can't say yet, since neither of them are done being written.
If you want to play the Worldwound adventure path without using Mythic characters, your GM will likely need to insert a lot more encounters or side adventures, or might just need to arbitrarily bump you up in level now and then, otherwise the dangers you'll be facing in the later adventures will be just too much.
The Worldwound adventure path is VERY MUCH designed to support Mythic Adventures.
I think that, beside not having a level cap, the greatest error that Wizards of the Coast made with their Epic Rules was that they really never supported them beyond a few articles and adventures in Dungeon and Dragon magazine (most of which I wrote or developed, as it works out). A game that's not supported isn't worth doing. And I think that Mythic Adventures is VERY MUCH worth doing... and as such, Paizo will be supporting it with product and adventures now and then.
The exact details of how that support will work out, though... that's future stuff. We'll see!
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Mythic commoners!
Heh.
Well... while something like that would certainly be possible with the Mythic rules themselves, one of the big things we'll be doing in the adventures and campaign setting and player companion lines is NOT thorwing "mythic commoners" into the mix. I've said it befor e—you can define a game world as much by what you DON'T put in it as much as by what you DO put in it, and for Golarion... I really want the mythic elements (things like demon lords, some of the runelords, Tar-Baphon, Arazni, Achaekek, the Oliphaunt of Jandelay, the Starstone, Great Old Ones, the eldest, archdevils, empyreal lords, the Pit of Gormuz, and so on) to be MYTHIC.
Just because we've got Mythic Adventures out doesn't mean you'll be seeing mythic goblins or mythic goats or mythic toads or mythic commoners popping up in our adventures.
Or, frankly, popping up ever.
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The female cleric in the Dragonlance novels would be a low-level mythic character. She had abilities nobody else had, but was not a high level character.Goldmoon? No she was just a human cleric.
Remember these book characters were actually someones PCs in that campaign.Irrelevant.
From the perspective of the book and the other characters in the book, she was a mythic character, but had little power beyond her mythic abilities. She could do things nobody else could do, even people vastly more powerful than her.
That makes her an excellent example of a low-level mythic character. The game system she existed in is irrelevant to the book itself, which told the story of those characters, and within that world it told the story in, she had mythic abilities which nobody else had, and were considered lost forever.
Actually... Goldmoon is a GREAT example of a character and a concept that could be handled in BOTH ways... as a regular character (as she was handled in the Dragonlance modules) or in a parallel world as a mythic character.
Her storyline was certainly "mythic" and "epic" in that she helped restore the faith in the gods to an entire world. And that is exactly the type of storyline that we COULD pose as a mythic (now using that word in rules context) storyline... but as evidenced by how she and her rules were handled in 1st & 2nd edition D&D, that's not a requirement.
Once Mythic Adventures is done, one of the things I and the rest of the creative team here at Paizo will be needing to do is deciding when a storyline or world element transcends the "core" and becomes "mythic." I suspect that when Mythic Adventures comes out, you'll see a lot more of that happening since we've got the Worldwound Crusade adventure path (the name of which I'm still flip-flopping on), but beyond that I suspect it might settle down a bit. Or not, if Mythic Adventures is super super super popular! We'll see!
What about mythic bunnies? I mean come on it's a cute little rabbit.
"I *warned* you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you *knew*, didn't you? Oh, it's just a harmless little *bunny*, isn't it? "
"RUN AWAY!"
Actually... Goldmoon is a GREAT example of a character and a concept that could be handled in BOTH ways... as a regular character (as she was handled in the Dragonlance modules) or in a parallel world as a mythic character.Her storyline was certainly "mythic" and "epic" in that she helped restore the faith in the gods to an entire world. And that is exactly the type of storyline that we COULD pose as a mythic (now using that word in rules context) storyline... but as evidenced by how she and her rules were handled in 1st & 2nd edition D&D, that's not a requirement.
That's pretty much why I said that most (or all) of MagiMaster's examples of "mythic" sources did not work for me. The ones I am familiar with, in general, seem to fit pretty well with standard "level progression = power increases" type of growth. While many may be breaking new ground in levels of power, there's little that says it is beyond the normal scope.
One exception to that may be Bleach (of which I am familiar with the anime as translated and shown in English today, so not the manga). In the early seasons, there are hints that the main character was doing things that should be impossible. That feeling has waned in the later seasons (and the filler arcs don't help with that), so that he seems more like first-among-equals than somehow "mythically special".
So I think that's going to be part of the challenge.. conveying how "mythic" powers are not like getting extra level advancement early.
Just because we've got Mythic Adventures out doesn't mean you'll be seeing mythic goblins popping up in our adventures.
Or, frankly, popping up ever.
Really? That's too bad, I think Mythic goblins would actually be really darn awesome.
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I suspect that when Mythic Adventures comes out, you'll see a lot more of that happening since we've got the Worldwound Crusade adventure path (the name of which I'm still flip-flopping on)...
I must confess, "Demonblight" made me think of some kind of crop disease.
On the other hand, the acronym on the boards for the above would be WC.
Just because we've got Mythic Adventures out doesn't mean you'll be seeing mythic goblins popping up in our adventures.
Or, frankly, popping up ever.
Really? That's too bad, I think Mythic goblins would actually be really darn awesome.
:(
Nothing will be stopping *you* from making some mythic goblins, just like nothing will be stopping me from running my party up to level 60 using the core and mythic Pathfinder rules :)
Nothing will be stopping *you* from making some mythic goblins, just like nothing will be stopping me from running my party up to level 60 using the core and mythic Pathfinder rules :)Just because we've got Mythic Adventures out doesn't mean you'll be seeing mythic goblins popping up in our adventures.
Or, frankly, popping up ever.
Really? That's too bad, I think Mythic goblins would actually be really darn awesome.
:(
Also, consider that one of James’s responsibilities is to preserve the cool and fun. He doesn’t want to turn people off with what could be a silly idea.
But that’s also a matter of presentation.
Sometimes you just need to turn your idea into something really cool.
For example, there is a mysterious relationship between barghests and goblins. Instead of looking at it from the perspective of “Wondergobbo who fights off PCs with a flaming toilet plunger because he has a mythic level”, consider the story of a particularly vicious, ravenous, and devious—who through superior cunning and luck survives to do great and awful deeds. Such that they ascend to become a barghest (and possibly a greater barghest, and who knows what after that?!?)
That would be the story of a unique creature who transcended the ordinary to become much greater and to become part of a larger story.
And isn’t that what being mythic is all about?
We roleplay to tell stories, and mythic roleplay is about extra special stories.
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Just because we've got Mythic Adventures out doesn't mean you'll be seeing mythic goblins or mythic goats or mythic toads or mythic commoners popping up in our adventures.
Or, frankly, popping up ever.
*sigh*
I guess it's up to me to stat out a decent level 20 commoner goblin toad.
Actually... Goldmoon is a GREAT example of a character and a concept that could be handled in BOTH ways... as a regular character (as she was handled in the Dragonlance modules) or in a parallel world as a mythic character.Her storyline was certainly "mythic" and "epic" in that she helped restore the faith in the gods to an entire world. And that is exactly the type of storyline that we COULD pose as a mythic (now using that word in rules context) storyline... but as evidenced by how she and her rules were handled in 1st & 2nd edition D&D, that's not a requirement.
That's pretty much why I said that most (or all) of MagiMaster's examples of "mythic" sources did not work for me. The ones I am familiar with, in general, seem to fit pretty well with standard "level progression = power increases" type of growth. While many may be breaking new ground in levels of power, there's little that says it is beyond the normal scope.
One exception to that may be Bleach (of which I am familiar with the anime as translated and shown in English today, so not the manga). In the early seasons, there are hints that the main character was doing things that should be impossible. That feeling has waned in the later seasons (and the filler arcs don't help with that), so that he seems more like first-among-equals than somehow "mythically special".
So I think that's going to be part of the challenge.. conveying how "mythic" powers are not like getting extra level advancement early.
Several of my other examples follow the same idea. Dragonball (and DBZ), Yuu Yuu Hakusho and Negima stand out particularly in my mind (among anime/manga at least).
Goku consistently manages to surpass any limits, much to the surprise of the theoretically-higher-level Vegeta.
Yuusuke and Kuabara are supposedly just normal humans, but end up fighting demon lords and the like. (Yuusuke in particular has some more explicitly mythical stuff going on later, but I don't want to include too many spoilers.)
Much of what Negi does is considered practically impossible by other magic users.
In literature, I'm pretty sure Rincewind would be mythic, even if he'd prefer not to be. (Again, I don't really want to include a lot of spoilers.)
I guess one way of looking at a mythic story is that it and its characters are unique within the world they're in. Even among high level characters, there are usually a few each generation (by most accounts). A mythic character only comes along once (each one being different). By that model, I think most shonen manga/anime series would be mythic (though not all). The characters in them tend to be individuals with unique powers are stories that constantly surprise the other characters in the story.
Yuusuke... supposedly just normal humans...
I snorted.
Now that I think about it, I like the idea of these mythic rules even more now that I realize this gives a way to make someone 'special' without having to deal with templates.
Yuusuke... supposedly just normal humans...I snorted.
O_o Hrmm... I wasn't trying to make a joke, so I guess I'll have to ask what was so funny?
I don't even have an idea what you were talking about there. :)
O_o Hrmm... I wasn't trying to make a joke, so I guess I'll have to ask what was so funny?Yuusuke... supposedly just normal humans...I snorted.
I assume the funny is from what you didn't want to spoiler.
On a fantasy note (and I'm probably gonna get whacked over this one) Richard from the Sword of Truth books carries a nice mythic feel to me.
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Just because we've got Mythic Adventures out doesn't mean you'll be seeing mythic goblins popping up in our adventures.
Or, frankly, popping up ever.
Really? That's too bad, I think Mythic goblins would actually be really darn awesome.
:(
Actaully, now that I think on it, we do have "mythic goblins." The four goblin hero-gods would qualify here, I suspect.
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Actaully, now that I think on it, we do have "mythic goblins." The four goblin hero-gods would qualify here, I suspect.Just because we've got Mythic Adventures out doesn't mean you'll be seeing mythic goblins popping up in our adventures.
Or, frankly, popping up ever.
Really? That's too bad, I think Mythic goblins would actually be really darn awesome.
:(
Mythic Monsters of Golarion has some candidates.
O_o Hrmm... I wasn't trying to make a joke, so I guess I'll have to ask what was so funny?Yuusuke... supposedly just normal humans...I snorted.I assume the funny is from what you didn't want to spoiler.
** spoiler omitted **
On a fantasy note (and I'm probably gonna get whacked over this one) Richard from the Sword of Truth books carries a nice mythic feel to me.
Oh. I suppose I might have worded that badly then.
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Nothing will be stopping *you* from making some mythic goblins, just like nothing will be stopping me from running my party up to level 60 using the core and mythic Pathfinder rules :)Just because we've got Mythic Adventures out doesn't mean you'll be seeing mythic goblins popping up in our adventures.
Or, frankly, popping up ever.
Really? That's too bad, I think Mythic goblins would actually be really darn awesome.
:(
Oh yes, I know. I wasn't truly 'sad', I guess just more surprised. I could see some really cool stories with goblins having mythic levels.
And to Jim Groves, really love that idea, that's what I'm talking about. Just because goblins are normally weak, dumb creatures, there is no reason you can't have that unique one who has elevated himself above the tribes.
However, James has found some goblin candidates for mythic, although I don't think they necessarily have to be gods to do so. It's like the example Jason gave at GenCon on the Mythical Minotaur, I had the impression the Minotaur wasn't necessarily a god, just a minotaur that was extremely powerful and stood out (and above) his race.
What about mythic bunnies? I mean come on it's a cute little rabbit.
"I *warned* you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you *knew*, didn't you? Oh, it's just a harmless little *bunny*, isn't it? "
Grrrrrrr!
The female cleric in the Dragonlance novels would be a low-level mythic character. She had abilities nobody else had, but was not a high level character.Goldmoon? No she was just a human cleric.
Remember these book characters were actually someones PCs in that campaign.Irrelevant.
From the perspective of the book and the other characters in the book, she was a mythic character, but had little power beyond her mythic abilities. She could do things nobody else could do, even people vastly more powerful than her.
That makes her an excellent example of a low-level mythic character. The game system she existed in is irrelevant to the book itself, which told the story of those characters, and within that world it told the story in, she had mythic abilities which nobody else had, and were considered lost forever.
Actually... Goldmoon is a GREAT example of a character and a concept that could be handled in BOTH ways... as a regular character (as she was handled in the Dragonlance modules) or in a parallel world as a mythic character.
Her storyline was certainly "mythic" and "epic" in that she helped restore the faith in the gods to an entire world. And that is exactly the type of storyline that we COULD pose as a mythic (now using that word in rules context) storyline... but as evidenced by how she and her rules were handled in 1st & 2nd edition D&D, that's not a requirement.
Once Mythic Adventures is done, one of the things I and the rest of the creative team here at Paizo will be needing to do is deciding when a storyline or world element transcends the "core" and becomes "mythic." I suspect that when Mythic Adventures comes out, you'll see a lot more of that happening since we've got the Worldwound Crusade adventure path (the name of which I'm still flip-flopping on), but beyond that I suspect it might settle down a bit. Or not, if Mythic Adventures is super super super popular! We'll see!
Her story may indeed be as mythic as they come. BUT she had NO special powers. She was no different than any other cleric in the game or setting. She could be called an iconic I suppose since she was the first cleric of that age on Krynn. But the Mythic System grants extra power and Goldmoon had no extra power. Her story was even stronger because she didn't have superpowers. She was just the first to not only reject the "new" faith but to place her trust in the old gods. So she wasn't a Mythic Character despite being part of a Mythic sounding adventure series.
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Her story may indeed be as mythic as they come. BUT she had NO special powers. She was no different than any other cleric in the game or setting. She could be called an iconic I suppose since she was the first cleric of that age on Krynn. But the Mythic System grants extra power and Goldmoon had no extra power. Her story was even stronger because she didn't have superpowers. She was just the first to not only reject the "new" faith but to place her trust in the old gods. So she wasn't a Mythic Character despite being part of a Mythic sounding adventure series.
I think you're assuming that all the "special powers" will be big magical combaty things. What if the hierophant gets abilities like "X% of people that hear you preach your faith convert?"
Actually a lot of Dragonlance characters "broke the rules." Raistlin was actually described by the authors as being so talented that he didn't obey all the rules for the magic-user class, or the red-robed wizard class once it was created. Laurana was limited to 5th level as a fighter in 1e, but she ended up leading and inspiring armies. It really depends on the spin you want to put on it. It also depends on how modular the mythic rules end up being.
I've been kicking around a campiagn idea in my head that I may now wait for the mythic rules to do. The idea is for the PCs to be the world's first true heroes - basically the first people to have PC classes.
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Although I noted one thing from JJ's post.
The adventure path will be for Mythic use only.
So not all the material will be usable either with or without Mythic.I have heard a few different rappers use the neologism 'overstand'. I like it.
You may be overstanding JJ, I would wait and see.
Just how the Worldwound adventure path interacts with the Mythic rules I can't say yet, since neither of them are done being written.
If you want to play the Worldwound adventure path without using Mythic characters, your GM will likely need to insert a lot more encounters or side adventures, or might just need to arbitrarily bump you up in level now and then, otherwise the dangers you'll be facing in the later adventures will be just too much.
The Worldwound adventure path is VERY MUCH designed to support Mythic Adventures.
I think that, beside not having a level cap, the greatest error that Wizards of the Coast made with their Epic Rules was that they really never supported them beyond a few articles and adventures in Dungeon and Dragon magazine (most of which I wrote or developed, as it works out). A game that's not supported isn't worth doing. And I think that Mythic Adventures is VERY MUCH worth doing... and as such, Paizo will be supporting it with product and adventures now and then.
The exact details of how that support will work out, though... that's future stuff. We'll see!
Razing of Redshore was yours! We loved it.
And the players are still bragging: "20' reach, ah, in our time we have fought things with 100' reach!" [sometimes it even become 120 feet of reach or more :-) ]
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Using the average would (usually) significantly bring it down. I might suggest simply presuming that your top stat is "X" for the purposes of this (let's say starting with "5") at a given level. This, then, increases as you level up, at rate your ability scores might. This helps it be less "swingy" based on different stats.
Since we don't know the rules, yet (I'm impatient to see them! :D) one possible interaction is with such spells as the <Animal's> <Attribute> spells (ala Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc) that might alter this. I suspect it will only be "permanent" changes (i.e. those similar to magic items worn for a full 24 hours) so spells won't affect it in some way, but that's just going at a guess.
I'm really psyched about these mythic levels, though, and very hopeful.
(EDIT: Note, I'm not saying that my idea should be implemented: I haven't even seen the rules in play, yet! I'm saying that, based only off of the limited ideas I've seen so far, it mine might be better. Of course, then again, it might not! I've got to wait and see!)
For me a system that encourage putting everything in one characteristic for maximum benefit if flawed.
Sure, Hercules was super strong, but he wasn't stupid, incapable to get people to follow him or clumsy. Put another way he hadn't dumped charisma, intelligence and dexterity to 7 get 20 strength. I hope that the Mythic rules will encourage balanced stats.In literature, I'm pretty sure Rincewind would be mythic, even if he'd prefer not to be. (Again, I don't really want to include a lot of spoilers.)
Mythic levels in weirdness magnet and survive anything.
