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That said, Hercules IS in the Avengers, so you may have a point... ;)Heresy! The (real) Avengers are John Steed and either Cathy Gale or Emma Peel (or Venus Smith, if you insist - I try to forget Tara King).
I'll allow the New Avengers, but that's because I've always rather liked Joanna Lumley. (My wife feels much the same way about Gareth Hunt).I must admit that when I noticed the sword cane in Ultimate Equipment the first image that came to mind was Steed's umbrella-work in the title sequence of the Avengers.
Your mixing your British TV with my American Comics. How dare you. LOL :)
Chief Technical Officer
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One big difference though. Those products were balanced to work alongside existing material. It didn't divide their production line.Pathfinder survived Oriental Adventures and firearms with people claiming the same as you. And they have a full year of playtesting to get it right.
I think they will be fine.
Oooh, thanks for reminding me...
One of the things we mentioned in Thursday's panel was that Mythic might allow a GM who has just one or two players to play through an adventure written for 4 or 5 players... perhaps even solo an Adventure Path.
Or maybe you're interested in high-level adventures, but you're not a fan of high-level play? Now you can take on bigger stories with less complicated characters.
So, yeah... not only will Mythic be designed to work with existing material, but it will actually bring new life to that material for some people.
I suggest people start a suggestion thread. :)
/me flags post so it can be moved to the suggestion thread :)
If someone starts a suggestion thread link it.
One big difference though. Those products were balanced to work alongside existing material. It didn't divide their production line.Pathfinder survived Oriental Adventures and firearms with people claiming the same as you. And they have a full year of playtesting to get it right.
I think they will be fine.
Oooh, thanks for reminding me...
One of the things we mentioned in Thursday's panel was that Mythic might allow a GM who has just one or two players to play through an adventure written for 4 or 5 players... perhaps even solo an Adventure Path.
Or maybe you're interested in high-level adventures, but you're not a fan of high-level play? Now you can take on bigger stories with less complicated characters.
So, yeah... not only will Mythic be designed to work with existing material, but it will actually bring new life to that material for some people.
This sounds like a fantastic option. I'm still leery that it will be too complicated for us, but if it gave me the option of running APs with two players without having to modify much, add DMPCs or give both of them a second PC - that would be a godsend.
As someone with no interest in >20 level play, these rules are sounding awesome. :)
The more I hear, the better it sounds. The template comparison sounds much better than the concept of taking levels in "heirophant" or "archmage" (which DO sound like prestige classes).
I still maintain, however, that I would rather have seen rules/advice/something for making the game have more "grit" (to borrow Evil Lincoln's term).
Cest la vie.
Yeah! Soloing Karzoug! ;)
Link to the suggestion thread
Thanks! I just got back here and it was already taken care of :)
One big difference though. Those products were balanced to work alongside existing material. It didn't divide their production line.Pathfinder survived Oriental Adventures and firearms with people claiming the same as you. And they have a full year of playtesting to get it right.
I think they will be fine.
Oooh, thanks for reminding me...
One of the things we mentioned in Thursday's panel was that Mythic might allow a GM who has just one or two players to play through an adventure written for 4 or 5 players... perhaps even solo an Adventure Path.
Or maybe you're interested in high-level adventures, but you're not a fan of high-level play? Now you can take on bigger stories with less complicated characters.
So, yeah... not only will Mythic be designed to work with existing material, but it will actually bring new life to that material for some people.
O__O
. . . If I hadn't just used the bathroom, I'm confident I would've soiled myself. Wow. As a huge (understatement) fan of high-level play, I was already ultra-pumped about Mythic. Now, you're just showing off. :)
I'm curious as to your thoughts on this, BP? Is it better or worse than a pure epic system, for someone who was absolutely not interested in pure epic?
Honestly, I'm intrigued. While the devil will be in the details, I never anticipated such an option. I like the analogy of Mythic adjusting the difficulty level -- avoiding it equaling a higher difficulty level. I like the idea of preserving the 20-level framework. But most of all, I like the idea that Mythic can kick in much earlier. (yes, I know how odd that sounds given my earlier posts...). I've always been interested in working planar stuff into my games but hated the demigod power-level the game always seemed to assume was a price of admission to those realms.
As an example, looking at heroes like Perseus & taking Clash of the Titans, he clearly would not translate to a 20+ level PC, but his story and foes are definitely mythic/epic.
I still have reservations, but it's not the non-starter I envisioned. However, I suspect those that expected level caps of 36, 40, or even higher may be less optimistic.
So put me in the cautiously optimistic column.
And believe me, no one is more surprised than I am...
Au contraire, I am hugely optimistic and I was really rooting for the old-school 36 cap. But I'm loving this. I swear, sometimes I wonder if Paizo actually has a real Paizo Golem that they consult about this sort of stuff because the level of ingenuity that they bring to some of their products is almost super-human considering the small size of their team. I don't think anyone anticipated this option.
Yep it does sound a bit like what I was thinking. Which was Greek Hero's like Hercules. Might be a nice add on to Pathfinder as long as they don't go crazy with it or focus on it to much.
Cease your attempts to lead mortals astray, temptress!! We are not deceived! Heracles is the Greek hero. Hercules is Roman!
( Couldn't resist. Still up & wired after fun PF session for my son & his PF-regulars.)
Oh, and KD, thanks for asking. After all the cries that I was depriving others of their fun (paraphrasing) from some of the pro-epic crowd, I figured I was persona non grata in these threads...
You know, I usually correct people on the Heracles/Hercules thing, but most people were raised on the idea of Hercules and don't change.
I'm even more intrigued now. Mythic from level 6 onwards? I wonder if that means the Demon Blight Crusade AP will start at 6 then?
So Shattered Star then Reign of Winter before Mythic rules come out alongside the AP they star in? Hmm. Transatlantic flight to GenCon please!
Just to clarify, our in-house playtest started at level 6. Mythic rules will scale across the entire 1-20 level spectrum (and slightly increase it).
You WILL be able to fight (or control, if you're a GM) demon lords and the like with this system, but it intentionally does not scale into lesser god territory.
More soon, obviously, but I wanted to nip in the bud the idea that the whole system is based on level 6+ simply because that's how the in-house playtest session that the seminar referenced worked.
Sounds good.
I never did like epic games or epic rules. If Mythic rules can help GMs do modify the rules and can fix some problems with the rules then this could be the savior of the game at mid and higher levels.The games start to crack around level 6, and starts to get really problematic at level 10 or 11. From level 13 - 15 the games just breaks apart.
Problems that needs to be dealt with are:
- Good saves vs. bad save.
- Healing not scaling well.
- Good AC matters less the higher you get. Sword and board not being a good option. Good AC isn't as important as being able to kill the foe as soon as possible.
- Skills getting less and less useful past a certain level. Skills are very useful at lower level and some even at mid levels, but past level 10 they really don't matter that much since magic is so much better and since there is a limit to what a skill lets you do. (If acrobatic would let you jump and fly, cool. If swim would let you fight under water as using freedom of movement, cool., etc)
- Combat maneuvers
- Melee vs. casters (and melee vs archers). This is not only a matter or move more than 5 ft and only hit once but yes this is a big problem. Especially if you play a TWF type of character.
- Casters vs. non-casters. I don't like 4th ed, but at higher levels all classes should be able to have some means of dealing with problems that don't involve hitting something that stands still on the ground with a stick. Fighter, rogue or whatever should be able to fly, see invisible foes, heal, or boosting their will saves, etc. a limited times per day.
- Classes should be able to retrain skills and feat. At least some of them. The bard should definitely be able to retrain their versatile skills.
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Have they mentioned any example mythic abilities?When you pick a mythic path, you designate you're primary ability score. You then have a pool of mythic points equal to your ability modifier.
So a Fighter who picks The Champion path could choose strength, or if an archer they'd probably pick dexterity.
A very basic thing they talked about is that all mythic characters/creatures get +20 to Initiative. Then, when their non-mythic initiative comes around (subtract the 20), you can spend a mythic point to take a second turn.
One of the things talked about at the seminar, was the ability to add a couple of levels of mythic to a solo-boss style encounter. Instead of needing to add magic items or minions, the boss now gets more actions during each round making them feel a bit more dangerous.
They talked about the archmage taking an ability to add meta magic for cheaper. He spends a mythic point and now can add one specific metamagic feat (+1 level) to all his spells. If he selects that ability again, he can now use it with +2 feats. Etc, etc.
Tricksters will be able to steal other peoples mythic abilities.
Champions can get precision, reducing the penalty on iterative attacks.
Mythic Fireball will do 1d10 damage per level and set people on fire 2d6 per round until they extinguish it.
I think this is all kind of their first draft for stuff. It's also about all I can remember from a couple hours ago.
They also talked about the ability to make mythic temporary, like the players have an artifact giving them their power, but they have to destroy it, so then they lose their mythic levels. Or maybe they anger the gods, or the gods think they no longer need the extra power, so it can be taken away too, if that's part of the story that the group wants.
So... I could be a fighter, pick Archmage, then cast with Strength? I could be... Muscle Wizard!?!
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You know, I usually correct people on the Heracles/Hercules thing, but most people were raised on the idea of Hercules and don't change.
Meh, if the Romans had wanted anyone to bother to differentiate their mythology from Greek mythology, they wouldn't have copy-pasted it, and only bothered to change (some of) the names.
So... I could be a fighter, pick Archmage, then cast with Strength? I could be... Muscle Wizard!?!
Fixed that for you.
[Edit] Also, makes me think of a Monk of the Four Winds using Elemental Fist and Vital Strike along with an item that gives him access to the Animal Aspect - Gorilla spell and another item that gives the Lead Blades spell. This lets him roll a 6d8 + 3d6 punch at 10th level.
Also works great for this character.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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So... I could be a fighter, pick Archmage, then cast with Strength? I could be... Muscle Wizard!?!
I CAST...
It's The Wizard!
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Oh, and KD, thanks for asking. After all the cries that I was depriving others of their fun (paraphrasing) from some of the pro-epic crowd, I figured I was persona non grata in these threads...
I think a lot of us may have been premature with our accusations and statements, if Paizo's mythic lives up to its intent. :)
From a purely business standpoint, I'm really impressed that Paizo has managed to pull off (attempt to anyway) an epic rule set that doesn't require epic levels, but allows them, letting them tap both the epic crowd, the high level crowd and the general masses. It's so much having one's cake and eating it too, I'm still unsure how it can actually work without vanishing in a puff of logic.
Well... huge fight with the boyfriend. No GenCon. :(
I guess I will have to wait for the internet to reveal all the secrets of this new Mythic thing.
The board is eating posts again methinks. I saw 3 updates, but only 2 appear!
Tel there is a delay in the time from when it announces the update to when you can read it. I have noticed the same thing.
While very intriguing, so far it sounds like a system that could be very difficult to balance right (considering it seems as if it should work all the way from level 2-ish up to level 20-ish). Looking forward to the playtest :)
I'm really impressed that Paizo has managed to pull off (attempt to anyway) an epic rule set that doesn't require epic levels, but allows them, letting them tap both the epic crowd, the high level crowd and the general masses. It's so much having one's cake and eating it too, I'm still unsure how it can actually work without vanishing in a puff of logic.
Right. This one definitely hit me from left field. I'm still very curious about what the actual meat of it is, and how it will work for those of us who do want to explore the above-20 realm.
However since what I find to be useful tools for above-20 are primarily the feats and some of the monster templates, this sounds like it might work pretty darn well.
One big difference though. Those products were balanced to work alongside existing material. It didn't divide their production line.Pathfinder survived Oriental Adventures and firearms with people claiming the same as you. And they have a full year of playtesting to get it right.
I think they will be fine.
Oooh, thanks for reminding me...
One of the things we mentioned in Thursday's panel was that Mythic might allow a GM who has just one or two players to play through an adventure written for 4 or 5 players... perhaps even solo an Adventure Path.
Or maybe you're interested in high-level adventures, but you're not a fan of high-level play? Now you can take on bigger stories with less complicated characters.
So, yeah... not only will Mythic be designed to work with existing material, but it will actually bring new life to that material for some people.
Great!
One of the things we mentioned in Thursday's panel was that Mythic might allow a GM who has just one or two players to play through an adventure written for 4 or 5 players... perhaps even solo an Adventure Path.
I like this part. My wife enjoyed playing through the Beginner Box, but won't have anything to do with coop play. A way to run adventures without having to get all kinds of hinky to make them work is fantastic!
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One of the things we mentioned in Thursday's panel was that Mythic might allow a GM who has just one or two players to play through an adventure written for 4 or 5 players... perhaps even solo an Adventure Path.Or maybe you're interested in high-level adventures, but you're not a fan of high-level play? Now you can take on bigger stories with less complicated characters.
So, yeah... not only will Mythic be designed to work with existing material, but it will actually bring new life to that material for some people.
This. This right here has sold me, where can I pony up for the pre-order?
Ok, so I have read through the posts and am royally confused. I feel like I'm reading some contradictory information. Will these mechanics allow us to take characters above level 20 and what is the anticipated release month for this book? Any clarification is appreciated.
Ok, so I have read through the posts and am royally confused. I feel like I'm reading some contradictory information. Will these mechanics allow us to take characters above level 20 and what is the anticipated release month for this book? Any clarification is appreciated.
From what I can tell from this thread and Facebook, 20 class levels is still your max. However, you can pick up a mythic path that kind of acts like a template that increases your abilities and thus your CR.
So you can be a 20th level wizard and a 10th mythic path archmage and be CR 30.
Ok, so I have read through the posts and am royally confused. I feel like I'm reading some contradictory information. Will these mechanics allow us to take characters above level 20 and what is the anticipated release month for this book? Any clarification is appreciated.
The playtest begins September or October, and the release is targeted for August 2013.
Thanks.
It seems from what little I have heard it seems to be a power booster system that levels right along with you. So nothing past 20th level... BUT if you have the full spread of Mythic levels your 20th level character could take on 36th level challenges and win.
They say it can be played with existing APs and such but that part is what confuses me... if the characters are so powerful that they can now solo a 5 man mission then how do you judge CR? Will there be a Level Adjustment system to adapt mythic to standard play?
They say it can be played with existing APs and such but that part is what confuses me... if the characters are so powerful that they can now solo a 5 man mission then how do you judge CR? Will there be a Level Adjustment system to adapt mythic to standard play?
Just a guess, but lets us say an AP goes from level 1 thru 17. At the end you could be a 12 class levels plus 5 mythic levels for a total of 17 levels. What I've read seems to suggest that if the group uses mythic (bolt on) then the DM can give out mythic levels instead of class levels.
This way would not affect the AP "suggested" level.
Still waiting for the play test to confirm my suspicions and see how it looks.
-- david
Papa.DRB
I believe one of the playtesters mentioned something about a Mythic Level adding +3 to the player lever? Don't quote me on that because I've been up for 30 hours and am two cards short of a full deck.
The actual quote is that a 6th level Mythic character could be equivalent to a 9th level non-Mythic character, which ties into the "up to half your class levels as Mythic levels on top of your class levels" mechanic.
I suggest people start a suggestion thread. :)
Hey, don't suggest things like that in here. That's what suggestion threads are for!
They say it can be played with existing APs and such but that part is what confuses me... if the characters are so powerful that they can now solo a 5 man mission then how do you judge CR? Will there be a Level Adjustment system to adapt mythic to standard play?Just a guess, but lets us say an AP goes from level 1 thru 17. At the end you could be a 12 class levels plus 5 mythic levels for a total of 17 levels. What I've read seems to suggest that if the group uses mythic (bolt on) then the DM can give out mythic levels instead of class levels.
This way would not affect the AP "suggested" level.
Still waiting for the play test to confirm my suspicions and see how it looks.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Papa, I'd say you're right about how that works for a 4-person party, but Aranna was asking about soloing (as Vic mentioned above).
My guess, Aranna, is that you'd still go through the AP at normal levels and maybe just not "count" the Mythic levels as part of your Total Character Level.
For example, the solo character is starting part two of an AP (for Level 5 characters). The Solo character is a Fighter 5/Mythic Path 3. Since Mythic levels do not count XP the same way they won't effect the XP needed for the character to reach level 6 (using medium advancement she'll still need a total of 23,000). This is complete guess work on my part, but I think it could work.
Now, one could argue that really isn't any different than playing a solo game where the character is three levels higher than expected APL but you just count the character as being three levels lower for XP needed. (Ex. Level 8 character playing in a level 5 module and the character needs a total of 23,000 XP to advance). Where I think it will be different is in action economy and saving throws - that's where the 3 Mythic Path levels come in. The Mythic Solo, thanks to powers granted by the Path, actually gets 2 to 4 Full Actions per round (equaling a normal party) and possibly gets to re-roll failed saving throws (save-or-suck/die is the biggest hurdle to solo play currently). Again, pure conjecture.
Short Version - we'll find out in a month.
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Ok, so I have read through the posts and am royally confused. I feel like I'm reading some contradictory information. Will these mechanics allow us to take characters above level 20 and what is the anticipated release month for this book? Any clarification is appreciated.From what I can tell from this thread and Facebook, 20 class levels is still your max. However, you can pick up a mythic path that kind of acts like a template that increases your abilities and thus your CR.
20th level has never been the maximum; the Pathfinder Core Rulebook talks about adventuring past level 20 - check it out for yourself on pp406-407. The issue has always been that there isn't good rules support for levels above 20. You can do it, but you're definitely stretching the limits of what the core rules can handle.
Now, just suppose that after level 20, the levels you hand out are mythic levels instead of standard levels. Based on the very scant information people have posted, it sounds like you count mythic levels as double normal levels, so a level 20 character with 10 mythic levels would be something like a CR 39.
Anyways, that's one way you could use them. Or you could do as others have suggested and start giving out mythic levels as low as level 6, resulting in a very, very heroic campaign (think the 12 labors of Hercules here).
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OMG... They are playing with dynamite. Did pathfinder just announce the product that will (potentially) end Pathfinder? I am glad they gave a heads up. I am now ending all purchases of Pathfinder products till I see if this is going to be good (and blow a hole in the level cap obstacle in front of the tracks) or kill the franchise (by blowing up in their faces).Let me get this straight, you're boycotting all Pathfinder products because a book might suck later (which doesn't even affect current releases at all)?? You know that's now how voting with your wallet actually works, right?
Just came out of the development workshop at Gen Con where they dropped some serious info on mythic play. Info dump: . . . snip . . .I'm doing my best to remain calm and not jump around like an 8-year-old going to Disneyland. That being said, I'm looking forward to the playtest with eager glee. I never doubted Paizo's ability to pull off Epic/Mythic levels and I'm glad to see my faith seems to be validated.
James mentioned before he liked the old-school tone of BECMI (hence why 36 always came up a suspected number for level cap). The six mythic paths definitely remind me of the themes from Immortal even though the rules will be quite different. I salute this decision.
Now now, he does have the right to make gross, unintelligent, and ill-informed ravings about a product he knows little about!
Besides, means more for the rest of us :)
She can get emotional all she wants and I defy any man to tell me differently.
As for unintelligent... hardly. Although I guess I have to explain why.
This sounds like it's intended to be fantasy Superheroes the RPG. If I am wrong then I will start buying again but so far...
Why do I think it will kill pathfinder if it turns out to be Pathfinder the Superhero game? Because it will divide their customer base in half. The half that WANT superhero play and the...
Plenty of people argue that characters start to become superheroes at level 6 or 7 or 8 ...
Oh, and KD, thanks for asking. After all the cries that I was depriving others of their fun (paraphrasing) from some of the pro-epic crowd, I figured I was persona non grata in these threads...
BPorter, despite the fact that I'll disagree with you vehemently, I hope that you understand that I bear you no ill-will! You're entirely free to express your opinion here!
You know, I usually correct people on the Heracles/Hercules thing, but most people were raised on the idea of Hercules and don't change.
To me, it's somewhat (though in a non-religious way) like saying "Jesus is the Messiah." Well, He is, but "Messiah" is a Hebrew word (the English variant based off of the Latin is "Christ", while "Jesus" is a distinctly English version (again based off of the Latin "Jesu") of the Hebraic name "Yeshua" (what, in the English language we more literally translate to "Joshua", now).
So, you know, even though His name probably should be called "Joshua" for the most correct English version of it (and "Yeshua" if you want it to sound more correct), it's not a struggle that can actually be won. Thus, I allow "Hercules" and "Jesus" and generally speak about such in public (even if I more privately refer to them a "Heracles" and "Yeshua").
Also, I'm very interested in these, personally, but, as I'm personally a fan of high-level play, I'm probably still going to be using the modified 3.0 Epic rules from time to time. I'm curious: many people here have mentioned the 3.5 epic rules being "broken", but I never, personally, had any of those, except little notes added at the end of the Complete series of books, which, in many regards, mediated much of the brokenness of the 3.0 stuff (though not completely fixed it). Is that just convention talk (i.e. not really separating the 3.0 from the 3.5) or was there some important book that I missed somehow (a 3.5 ELH)? Or have I just really been running the 3.5 epic stuff wrong to make it seem not as messed up as the 3.0 stuff?
I'm curious: many people here have mentioned the 3.5 epic rules being "broken", but I never, personally, had any of those, except little notes added at the end of the Complete series of books, which, in many regards, mediated much of the brokenness of the 3.0 stuff (though not completely fixed it). Is that just convention talk (i.e. not really separating the 3.0 from the 3.5) or was there some important book that I missed somehow (a 3.5 ELH)? Or have I just really been running the 3.5 epic stuff wrong to make it seem not as messed up as the 3.0 stuff?
You didn't miss anything; there was no proper 3.5 update of the epic rules, so I imagine people who refer to 3.5 epic rules simply mean 3.0 epic rules.
Ah, thanks! I was really curious the more I saw the "3.5 Epic rules", as if they were a single thing. Also curious as the instances of 3.5 rules were scads more balanced (when they appeared at the back of the Complete series, or, in the one other case I can think of, in Lost Empires of Faerun) than the actual 3.0 ELH. Not that they were balanced, mind, but that they were far more balanced. Anyhoo. Different topic, sorry for the derail.
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Ah, thanks! I was really curious the more I saw the "3.5 Epic rules", as if they were a single thing. Also curious as the instances of 3.5 rules were scads more balanced (when they appeared at the back of the Complete series, or, in the one other case I can think of, in Lost Empires of Faerun) than the actual 3.0 ELH. Not that they were balanced, mind, but that they were far more balanced. Anyhoo. Different topic, sorry for the derail.
WoTC *did* do a 3.5e update of the 3.0e epic rules, but it was one of those PDF-only updates like they did for a few other books like Manual of the Planes, etc.
For example, the Ruin Swarm turned from an ooze into an actual swarm and a lot of little things were adjusted due to the 3.0 vs 3.5 differences. You can see all of that stuff on the WoTC site even now.
And as an aside, I also have never seen the "horrible imbalance" of the 3.5e epic rules. Note that I'm excluding epic spells from that. I like a lot of the epic feats and the epic templates (some of the epic monsters are pretty unrunnable, but some are pretty darn cool like the gibbering orb, the umbral blot, the colossii, and the primal elementals, just to name a few.)
Frankly, the NON-epic 3.5e rules had some pretty seriously overpowered stuff; for example the stuff druids could do was pretty crazy, since they pretty much gave druids any creature type INCLUDING all special abilities. But that has nothing to do with epic rules.
Frankly, the NON-epic 3.5e rules had some pretty seriously overpowered stuff; for example the stuff druids could do was pretty crazy, since they pretty much gave druids any creature type INCLUDING all special abilities. But that has nothing to do with epic rules.