...it will divide their customer base in half. The half that WANT superhero play and the half that DON'T WANT superhero play. Now they will have to support two separate product lines with each one earning half the revenue.Um, what separate product lines will mythic rules require?
The people who don't want mythic play will be supported by Paizo's normal APs, which they will use to play CR 9 heroes fighting CR 9 bad guys.
Meanwhile, the people who do want mythic play will be supported by... Paizo's normal APs, which they will use to play CR 9 heroes fighting CR 9 bad guys.
The situation is no different than Paizo printing a book of prestige classes: some groups will want to play the latest AP with characters that are allowed to take levels in those prestige classes; others will want to play the latest AP with characters that are not allowed to take levels in those prestige classes.
The next next AP will be using the mythic rules. If people really don't want them, that could cause issues.
For me, the fact that it isn't post 20 is the only reason I'm interested in the rules.
Ok... looks like I am going to have to drive over to GenCon this weekend and see first hand what is going on... maybe the developers can shed better light for me.
The example Jason gave was an advanced, or ultra minotaur in its lair. Previously, a designer might have added a template or class levels to it. Now, they will also have the option of adding a mythic level. Don't remember the specific stats off my head, but say a Minotaur is CR 6, you could add 3-4 levels of barbarian to it, to make it CR 9, or you could add 3 mythic levels.
The mythic version doesn't have higher stats, he doesn't have a higher chance to hit with a roll, but he gets more options, like an extra turn, or maybe a unique ability "when unobserved, teleport to any location in the labyrinth."
For non-mythic campaigns, it's still a tool that a DM can use to design monsters and make them feel different without increasing attack, damage, AC, saves, DCs, etc.
The example Jason gave was an advanced, or ultra minotaur in its lair. Previously, a designer might have added a template or class levels to it. Now, they will also have the option of adding a mythic level. Don't remember the specific stats off my head, but say a Minotaur is CR 6, you could add 3-4 levels of barbarian to it, to make it CR 9, or you could add 3 mythic levels.
The mythic version doesn't have higher stats, he doesn't have a higher chance to hit with a roll, but he gets more options, like an extra turn, or maybe a unique ability "when unobserved, teleport to any location in the labyrinth."
For non-mythic campaigns, it's still a tool that a DM can use to design monsters and make them feel different without increasing attack, damage, AC, saves, DCs, etc.
This sounds great. Its the kinda thing that seems like it can make something more memorable without it being a pray for divine intervention encouter.
Apparently I am the only person who never had problems playing games between levels 15-25.
I really didn't have many problems either. It takes a bit more preparation is the only thing I've noticed. That and a healthy amount of rule zero thrown around. Of coarse I'm a bit of a free flying type of DM, so it wasn't much of a stretch. Either way, I'm excited to see what they do with this approach, and will only comment on it once I see it.
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Add me into the "no real problems post 15" crowd.
Heck, add me into the "no real problems post 20" crowd. (gbonehead totally counts! He totally counts as a crowd, dang it!)
Ok... looks like I am going to have to drive over to GenCon this weekend and see first hand what is going on... maybe the developers can shed better light for me.
The example Jason gave was an advanced, or ultra minotaur in its lair. Previously, a designer might have added a template or class levels to it. Now, they will also have the option of adding a mythic level. Don't remember the specific stats off my head, but say a Minotaur is CR 6, you could add 3-4 levels of barbarian to it, to make it CR 9, or you could add 3 mythic levels.
The mythic version doesn't have higher stats, he doesn't have a higher chance to hit with a roll, but he gets more options, like an extra turn, or maybe a unique ability "when unobserved, teleport to any location in the labyrinth."
For non-mythic campaigns, it's still a tool that a DM can use to design monsters and make them feel different without increasing attack, damage, AC, saves, DCs, etc.
So they would just gain extra CR with no extra base or hit dice in exhange for options? Wouldn't they get pretty beat up when actually battling a player of equivalent level?
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I love the idea of adding Mythic to solos so they have more actions, an idea that 4E (MM3 and later) did well. The BBEG should be so awesome and step outside the action economy
I love the idea of adding Mythic to solos so they have more actions, an idea that 4E (MM3 and later) did well. The BBEG should be so awesome and step outside the action economy
This is something I did already, sometimes. Worth a +1 or so CR I figured.
So they would just gain extra CR with no extra base or hit dice in exhange for options? Wouldn't they get pretty beat up when actually battling a player of equivalent level?Ok... looks like I am going to have to drive over to GenCon this weekend and see first hand what is going on... maybe the developers can shed better light for me.
The example Jason gave was an advanced, or ultra minotaur in its lair. Previously, a designer might have added a template or class levels to it. Now, they will also have the option of adding a mythic level. Don't remember the specific stats off my head, but say a Minotaur is CR 6, you could add 3-4 levels of barbarian to it, to make it CR 9, or you could add 3 mythic levels.
The mythic version doesn't have higher stats, he doesn't have a higher chance to hit with a roll, but he gets more options, like an extra turn, or maybe a unique ability "when unobserved, teleport to any location in the labyrinth."
For non-mythic campaigns, it's still a tool that a DM can use to design monsters and make them feel different without increasing attack, damage, AC, saves, DCs, etc.
Depends on the options. If its now taking Two turns each round its gonna step up its game a bit. Unless there are some heavy options I would still say that Solo encouters are still gonna suffer from being overwhelmed but if the right options are there then who knows.
I love the idea of adding Mythic to solos so they have more actions, an idea that 4E (MM3 and later) did well. The BBEG should be so awesome and step outside the action economyThis is something I did already, sometimes. Worth a +1 or so CR I figured.
A good place to look for some basic rules on this is the Naturo d20 pdf. It has rules for making a monster elite solo boss or one other I can't remeber and the appropriate CR for the boost.
This sounds good. I eagerly await the playtest rules.
I have to admire the calm and grace you exhibit at the bottom of that pigpile, Aranna. Bravo!See, this makes more sense than "OMG THEY ARE DESTROYING THEIR COMPANY! WTFBBQ PAIZO". Which is what everyone gathered from your post...I am saying I have a limited budget and will wait and see if the company is making a mistake before continuing to spend money on my already large pile of now unused games and game supplements. Is that not the wiser approach? I don't NEED to keep buying the stuff to continue enjoying the game. I played 3.5 for as long or longer without buying new stuff. I am very creative I will manage.
I am a self admitted Song Bird style gamer. If I get overly dramatic that only shows I am interested in how it plays out.
Thank you very much. I am a voice of reason even if I get carried away when excited.
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"when unobserved, teleport to any location in the labyrinth."
Ok, now that right there sounds really sweet joined with the mythological basis of the minotaur.
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Add me into the "no real problems post 15" crowd.
Heck, add me into the "no real problems post 20" crowd. (gbonehead totally counts! He totally counts as a crowd, dang it!)
You are far, far from alone, I assure you.
-TimD
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The next next AP will be using the mythic rules. If people really don't want them, that could cause issues.Perhaps. Or it could work like Kingmaker, where a group could choose to ignore the massive subsystem Kingmaker introduced by invoking the "kingdom building in the background" option.
A so-called mythic AP could easily support non-mythic play. Just state that any time a mythic level would be awarded, the GM can choose to award a standard class level, instead. (Well, that and reprint any monster and NPC abilities not in the PRD, but that's standard practice.)
The problem with this is that the opponents will also be either powered up by mythic stuff, or be much higher CR. by the end the non mythic party would really struggle
Put the non mythic party on fast advancement.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm even more intrigued now. Mythic from level 6 onwards? I wonder if that means the Demon Blight Crusade AP will start at 6 then?
So Shattered Star then Reign of Winter before Mythic rules come out alongside the AP they star in? Hmm. Transatlantic flight to GenCon please!
Just to clarify, our in-house playtest started at level 6. Mythic rules will scale across the entire 1-20 level spectrum (and slightly increase it).
You WILL be able to fight (or control, if you're a GM) demon lords and the like with this system, but it intentionally does not scale into lesser god territory.
More soon, obviously, but I wanted to nip in the bud the idea that the whole system is based on level 6+ simply because that's how the in-house playtest session that the seminar referenced worked.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Yea, the basic idea is that a god gives you some power or you get a hold of an artifact or something and despite being 6th level, you are taking on CR 9 monsters and that is now CR appropriate instead of it being a challenging fight.Extrapolating, that would mean that L20 characters would get the bump in power needed to have at least a chance at battling some of the demon lords etc. in print. Cool.
Absolutely correct and part of the design brief for the book before the boys even started on it.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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OMG... They are playing with dynamite. Did pathfinder just announce the product that will (potentially) end Pathfinder? I am glad they gave a heads up. I am now ending all purchases of Pathfinder products till I see if this is going to be good (and blow a hole in the level cap obstacle in front of the tracks) or kill the franchise (by blowing up in their faces).
LOL! Thanks for the show of confidence, Aranna! We appreciate your support! ::wink::
Seriously, you have less than two months to wait to see the playtest document (and even then we'll be making changes based on fan input, including potentially yours), so there's really no need to freak out and cancel purchases, because it's right around the corner and you will know one way or the other soon enough!
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I'm even more intrigued now. Mythic from level 6 onwards? I wonder if that means the Demon Blight Crusade AP will start at 6 then?
So Shattered Star then Reign of Winter before Mythic rules come out alongside the AP they star in? Hmm. Transatlantic flight to GenCon please!
Just to clarify, our in-house playtest started at level 6. Mythic rules will scale across the entire 1-20 level spectrum (and slightly increase it).
You WILL be able to fight (or control, if you're a GM) demon lords and the like with this system, but it intentionally does not scale into lesser god territory.
More soon, obviously, but I wanted to nip in the bud the idea that the whole system is based on level 6+ simply because that's how the in-house playtest session that the seminar referenced worked.
Well if it doesn't go to lesser god territory then I still won't be able to be stated up. :)
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Honestly this is the first "epic" system outside of e6 that I've been interested in. A lot of parties never reach level 20 because time is linear and there's only so many gaming hours a year. By making this an overlay you've solved the biggest design problem of "epic" rules already.
So if anyone is playing Kingmaker keep an eye out for Dudemeister's Sound of A Thousand Screams Mythic Enhancements.
Said that I have neither love nor a particular hatred for epic rules per se (I firmly dislike their 3.5 incarnation, but that doesn't mean I couldn't appreciate a different approach), tell me if I get this right:
Mythic rules won't be rules for a progression past the 20 base levels (although there will also be something about this, it seems). Rather, they'll be sort of a template-type of rules to apply to characters over the course of their journey from level 1 to 20.
Now, I know these are early times to make speculations and questions, but anyway... if I got it right, this will imply that a GM has to choose of either using them or not. Like any other set of additional (or even basic) rules, you'll say... but no, if things are like this, the choice about mythic rules is different. They're not things that rise the PCs over what the limit was till now, but they enhance them from the beginning, impacting on the game more than any other set of additional rules.
How will this be managed?
The mechanics point of view is probably the one that less concerns me in such a set of rules; I'm thinking more of other types of issues, like PCs who know from the start that they are "bigger and better" than most of the world's creatures, destined for greatness (far more than what a normal PC expects). Or dead MCs (mythic PCs) that do not resurrect and are instead replaced by new mythic characters, as if there was always a mythic person behind the corner, ready to join the party... that sort of things.
Very interested. So does this mean it is time to detail Iblydos?
First off this does sound promising. Very promising. However the thing that has irked me about some expansions (the ultimates for example) is that they are basically more player toys. Feats, archetypes, spells and equipment. That is cool and all but my issues with this are:
1. In am a GM give me some more toys ;-)
2. None of the above books has elevated the game beyond a small squad, individual skirmish game. You fight bigger creatures with more blasty spells. It all still resolves in 12-18 seconds, and stuff dies.
I am a lover of BECMI and rules cyclopedia because it had rules that went beyond squad combat. I think some of this will be covered in ultimate campaign, and I am happy about this. What I do want to see in mythic is, at least part of the book, be devoted to GM tools that can take the game beyond short skirmishes as part of a campaign arc and allow players and NPCs to do some really cool stuff that is not just hit harder. Things that allow me to add stuff to the game to make it harder, and funner to do something. In combat have creatures as big as a city, dragons that you CANNOT kill normally, spells that raise the dead of a whole country, effects that will obliterate anyone even a level 20 fighter with 350 hit points in a single shot, mass combats with 5000 orcs vs your fighter, epic tasks that only a rogue who has been trained by an extraplanner master can undertake, weapons bathed in the blood of a archangel to defeat an archdemon, these sorts of things. I know I can create these things as a GM now, but we are way out on a limb in GM fiat territory, and I have had players flat out say to me the rules don't work that way. Here's hoping!!
These "mythic levels" sound like prestige classes.It sounds to me like Mythic Levels will be more like Templates.I think you guys should go back to 4th Edition and look at their Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies instead.
I went to the hobby store intending to buy 4E when it came out. I opened up the PHB and started reading in the store and discussing it with the owner of the hobby store (a good friend and pseudo-uncle of mine). After about 2 hours, I put the book back on the shelf, and never really touched it again.
Why would I go back now and look at 4E? Are you saying you think it will be like the Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies of 4E? Or are you saying I should go back to playing 4E?
Frankly, if you're telling me I should go back to playing 4E, I find your comment insulting. If you're saying that you think it will be like Paragon Paths or Epic Destinies, then I'll just have to wait and see as I never bothered to get that far in the book, so I don't know what they are.
Big Eyes Small Mouth! Pathfinder Edition!
Tels: I'm pretty sure he just means the concept of mythic stuff will be similar to 4E's paragaon path/epic destiny system: an overlay to your already-existing abilities that enhances (but does not replace) them or gives you new special abilities, as you progress.
I... don't see how you'd get the other interpretation, but that's just me.
Tels: I'm pretty sure he just means the concept of mythic stuff will be similar to 4E's paragaon path/epic destiny system: an overlay to your already-existing abilities that enhances (but does not replace) them or gives you new special abilities, as you progress.
I... don't see how you'd get the other interpretation, but that's just me.
It was my first impression, and rather than reacting, I stopped to look at his post again to see what he meant.
Gotcha. :)
The next next AP will be using the mythic rules. If people really don't want them, that could cause issues.
Obviously premature to say for certain, but given the talk about it being an "overlay," I'd expect that there wouldn't be much different in the AP, aside from perhaps some sidebars giving the Mythic encounters some additional Mythic abilities, CR adjustments, tactics, etc.
Take a little more room in the AP to do, but it would be rather easily ignored by anyone not using those rules, thus making it usable across the board, as opposed to firmly integrating them, and making DMs backwards modify them on their own.
I wonder if the the Mythic Rules will be handled like Harrow points in Curse of the Crimson Throne? Some people didn't like them, some people did, and some people just totally forgot about them (like my group).
Any way it could be possible to set up a way to be emailed when the playtest is availble? Don't always have access to a computer to check paizo everyday.
Can the mythic rules be used to create PCs from non-zero HD races? Would be nice to be ale to play a minotaur, dragon or giant.
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Any way it could be possible to set up a way to be emailed when the playtest is availble? Don't always have access to a computer to check paizo everyday.
I believe they send out a news announcement to folks who have "Paizo may send me marketing information about Paizo products, services or events" checked on their account page when playtests start or are updated.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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This sounds like it's intended to be fantasy Superheroes the RPG. If I am wrong then I will start buying again but so far...
It's probably more accurate to think of it as the Trials of Hercules the RPG than a superhero version of Pathfinder. At present there are not options to phase or shoot optic blasts from your eyes.
That said, Hercules IS in the Avengers, so you may have a point... ;)
Why do I think it will kill pathfinder if it turns out to be Pathfinder the Superhero game? Because it will divide their customer base in half. The half that WANT superhero play and the...
This concern is actually a pretty good example of why we are NOT doing this as a simple add on to the end of the current math. That sort of thing essentially IS a new system, and would require a parallel line of adventures and support material to properly support. We didn't want to do that (and we didn't think many of you would want to BUY that), so we're going with an option that allows you to layer the mythic stuff on top of the existing 1-20 levels in a way that works more or less seamlessly with the existing Pathfinder system.
While Mythic Adventures will contain some mythic monsters and some templates for making regular monsters mythic, you don't need a whole level of mostly useless "epic-level" monsters 90% of campaigns will never use, draining staff resources for a product that appeals to a small sub-set of the audience. Want to make a super-tough minotaur appropriate for a higher-level party (mythic or otherwise?), well, this book lets you do that.
I understand, to some degree, your skepticism. The truth is you genuinely might not like what we're cooking up. That said, I'm fairly confident that if you don't like the final system, it'll end up being for reasons other than the concerns you're citing. Many of those concerns are our concerns as well, and we're doing whatever we can to avoid them.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Ok... looks like I am going to have to drive over to GenCon this weekend and see first hand what is going on... maybe the developers can shed better light for me.
Please do! We'd be more than happy to address your concerns in person! :)
Argh. I see a lot of second-hand discussion, but where is what people are actually discussing?
Hmm really interested in this news, have done my best to skim the thread so far and good to see Eric posting in here to answer some of the concerns.
My concern is... will such mythic creatures have alternate rewards systems? For example a level 4 party with 2 mythic levels takes on a CR8 monster (whether the monster is itself mythic or not this would be effective a challenging fight, APL+2), isn't this going to result in the XP and treasure curves being thrown completely out of wack if the level 4 party is getting XP and treasure for a creature four levels higher? Or even what would normally be a difficult mini boss or the like for a level 4 party at CR 8 is only going to be a moderate challenge to the mythic party. Seems like the leveling will be greatly accelerated as a result, do mythic campaigns have to use the slow XP track to compensate, or will there be some alternate system to manage this?
I hope that's clear enough, I just got off a 12 hour graveyard shift so apologies if it's confusing :p Super excited to get my hands on the playtest.
Argh. I see a lot of second-hand discussion, but where is what people are actually discussing?
Paizo hasn't officially made an announcement yet. At the moment it's all based on tweets and posts from people at Gencon, they can be found throughout this thread. Jason Buhlman's facebook page also has a comment mentioning Mythic, which is about as close to offical as there is at the moment, but contains no actual details. Or at least that is what I have gathered.
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That said, Hercules IS in the Avengers, so you may have a point... ;)
Heresy! The (real) Avengers are John Steed and either Cathy Gale or Emma Peel (or Venus Smith, if you insist - I try to forget Tara King).
I'll allow the New Avengers, but that's because I've always rather liked Joanna Lumley. (My wife feels much the same way about Gareth Hunt).I must admit that when I noticed the sword cane in Ultimate Equipment the first image that came to mind was Steed's umbrella-work in the title sequence of the Avengers.
Add me into the "no real problems post 15" crowd.
Heck, add me into the "no real problems post 20" crowd. (gbonehead totally counts! He totally counts as a crowd, dang it!)
Aw shucks.
The irony is that I just got back from my epic game to find this announcement, and I'm still trying to figure out what the heck is going on.
I'm on my third read of the thread now, and while my initial reaction was "that's not what I want at all!" now I'm more thinking "okay, I can use this, I think ... but hopefully they'll fix X, Y and Z."
Note that a big one is absolutes, such as freedom of movement or mind blank or the like. For example, perhaps a mythic ability could be to treat any statement of "always succeeds" instead as "gains a +40 on the check." Thus, for example, someone with freedom of movement would have a +40 on their CMB or Escape Artist check instead of a flat "I always win!" result.
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That said, Hercules IS in the Avengers, so you may have a point... ;)Heresy! The (real) Avengers are John Steed and either Cathy Gale or Emma Peel (or Venus Smith, if you insist - I try to forget Tara King).
I'll allow the New Avengers, but that's because I've always rather liked Joanna Lumley. (My wife feels much the same way about Gareth Hunt).I must admit that when I noticed the sword cane in Ultimate Equipment the first image that came to mind was Steed's umbrella-work in the title sequence of the Avengers.
I very very vaguely recall that, from the ohmygoditislate hour of tv from when i was young. My mom was a big fan of that show.