Have another social situation for you to pick apart. This happened with my roommate who just moved out a few weeks ago.
Several months ago Mr. Nepherti's parents made the 3-hour drive for a weekend visit. At the time, we lived with our friend, let's call him Bill. It was Sunday afternoon, both Bill and I were at work. Mr. Nepherti was at the house with his parents. Now, every time his mother visits, she has to clean. She catches us up on laundry, she does dishes, she makes sure we have bleach, dryer sheets, laundry soap, and plenty of things like towels or dish rags.
While cleaning up, she noticed that the shower curtain was fairly moldy on the bottom. So she ran to Wal-Mart and bought a new shower curtain (one with a fancy outer curtain and a clear replaceable liner), matching towels for the little bar across from the toilet, matching soap dispenser for the sink, and new hooks to hang the curtain up. She took the old hooks and put them in a baggie and put them in the junk drawer. She threw away the old moldy shower curtain.
I got home from work, saw the new stuff and loved it. I thanked my de facto mother-in-law and we went out to dinner. After the parents left to go back north, Bill gets home from work. He goes to the bathroom and notices the new stuff. He comes back out and asks me where his shower curtain is. I explain what happened. He begins the start ranting about how she needs to replace his shower curtain cause he paid money for it and he was going to take it with him when he moved. Not to Mr. Nepherti, not to Mr. Nepherti's parents....to me.
Over the course of the next few months until two weeks ago when he moved out, he approached me several more times about the shower curtain situation, telling me how rude and disrespectful it was of her to throw away a shower curtain that didn't belong to her.
Mind you, he has failed to take the hooks for the curtain to his new place. Those hooks are nice hooks, they probably cost more than the curtain itself. They are still in a ziplock baggie in our junk drawer clearly labeled in all caps in sharpie marker: BILL'S SHOWER CURTAIN HOOKS
In all the times I've moved, I've just left the curtain in the old place because it needed replaced anyway, so Bill's reaction is baffling me. Is he overreacting? Was she rude?
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Bill is a loser and you should probably smack him.
She replaced it - you said she bought and put up a new one - and he's ranting about her needing to replace it? Whuh?
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I assume he is angry because he would have taken the old curtain with him when he left, but is not taking the new one because your mother-in-law gave it to you and your husband, so now he is sans shower curtain.
I say, buy him a $12 shower curtain and tell him to shut the f~#@ up.
I'm guessing he's targeting you because he doesn't have an issue yelling at you, compared to an elderly lady or your husband who might be more intimidating/intolerant of this behavior, and thus has chosen you as an acceptable proxy that lets him be the "big guy" without fearing retribution. That or simply because you're there and they're not.
Methinks someone has control issues...
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I agree with doodlebug and celestial healer.
Buy a $12 shower curtain. Hand it to him, smack him, and tell him to STFU.
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Buy a Dollar Store shower curtain. Hand it to him, smack him, and tell him to STFU.
Fixed that for ya'll.
Well, Bill is the Omega of our little pack here. I haven't seen him since he moved out. I did notice over the course of the past year I've lived with him other similar behaviors. I told Mr. Nepherti, and he was baffled as well that Bill only expressed his dislike of losing his shower curtain to me. He came to the same conclusion you guys did.
I don't want hardly anything else to do with him. Nearly everyone in our group has said they needed a break from Bill at some point. He was much better liked after being away in Japan for a year.
I've never taken a shower curtain with me when moving, or needed to. I'm not exaggerating when I say every apartment I've rented in my life has had a shower curtain waiting for me when I moved in.
As with the Horrible Milk Incident, I get the feeling Bill was complaining about more than just the shower curtain. I suppose Bill's shower curtain may have had some sentimental value, but in that case digging it out of the trash wouldn't have been out of the question, would it? Just like Toy Story 3, but with a shower curtain.
It doesn't have sentimental value. He's just doesn't want to buy a new one. He has two new roommates, I'm assuming they had one when he got there, cause I haven't heard any complaining since he left.
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It doesn't have sentimental value. He's just doesn't want to buy a new one. He has two new roommates, I'm assuming they had one when he got there, cause I haven't heard any complaining since he left.
Tell him you have just the thing for this situation. Then hand him a Pamprin.
PMS medication.
On an unlrelated note, Explosive runes
He begins the start ranting about how she needs to replace his shower curtain cause he paid money for it and he was going to take it with him when he moved...Over the course of the next few months until two weeks ago when he moved out, he approached me several more times about the shower curtain situation, telling me how rude and disrespectful it was of her to throw away a shower curtain that didn't belong to her.
I'm going to advise a course of action that exercises your Wis and Cha, rather than the Str-based "slapping-sense-into-Bill" that others have counseled:
People are bad at communicating what they actually mean. Unless the curtain had some special emotional significance to him, it's probably not actually about the curtain.
To think about underlying interests, I doubt that the shower curtain itself was the issue: Generally, it sounds like Bill felt his space & his stuff were threatened. Somebody came into his home, and messed with his stuff, without his knowledge or consent. For all he knew, the shower curtain was just the beginning, and who knows what would be next, just because some third party judged it lacking?
He might just need catharsis--for somebody to understand and acknowledge that he feels injured--and sees you as the most sympathetic ear for that. He might have felt that you were the one who would be most willing/able to watch out for his stuff and intervene the next time Mr. N's mother came through to "improve" his space when he was out, and just didn't do a good job of communicating that to you. Or, he may have just been being a dick. I don't know him, but the alternatives are worth considering.
What would have happened if your MiL had not replaced the curtain? He would have taken the old one with him, and you would have needed to buy a new one. You've already got a nicer curtain: sounds like you probably could buy him a replacement, and still come out the winners in the shower curtain department. (If he moved out 2 weeks ago, though, he's probably already got a shower curtain in his new place and buying him a new one probably wouldn't do him any good.)
Also, if Bill really felt he was "owed" a shower curtain, he would have asked for / demanded one. But it sounds like he never did that, but just talked about it being rude and disrespectful?
My guess is it really is just a perceived violation of space that he's bent out of shape about, and he hasn't communicated it well. If you value his friendship and want to make sure bridges don't get burnt, it's probably worth taking some initiative to patch things up: "Hey, Bill, I'm sorry that Mr. N's mom threw away your shower curtain. It didn't seem like the kind of thing you'd want to hold on to: I know always like to buy a fresh shower curtain when I move into a new place. I totally would have stopped her from throwing away anything I thought had any chance of being important to you--we even made sure to save the shower curtain hooks, because those seemed nice and reusable. (Did you want those, by the way?)"
(Ninja'd maybe a little by your followup comments. Sounds like Bill may have a habit of being a twit sometimes, and you'd know better than I if he was really just being a twit. However, being married to a professional family counselor, I've been programmed to look for underlying interests, and general advice of patching it over holds. :) )
Huh. Sounds weird. I wouldn't say he has control issues, just that when you have roommates, yo never know when boundaries are going to be crossed. I'd be interested in hearing more from his point of view. That said, he's probably overreacting.
Huh. Sounds weird. I wouldn't say he has control issues, just that when you have roommates, yo never know when boundaries are going to be crossed. I'd be interested in hearing more from his point of view. That said, he's probably overreacting.
From what I gather, he gets weird over things when it comes to the ownership of items. He absolutely can't stand being indebted to someone. For one thing, we both smoke. I only have a pack on me for the occasional cigarette (usually when I'm drinking), he smokes more regularly. This resulted in the occasional bumming of smokes. I didn't mind at all because I smoke so little the pack would be stale by the time I finished it myself. He'd be ready to head out the door to the store to get new smokes, I'd just stop him and hand him one of mine. No big deal, why waste the trip to the store just for smokes? I never wanted paid back at all. Yet he would get visibly agitated at the idea of bumming a smoke. Like he was stealing from me or something.
I think he's more quirky than a genuine ass. That said, it's just a shower curtain. Let it go, dood!
I say egg the frakker. All you Primes are weirdos.
That's how you slaad want to solve everything!
How do you lawful types say it? If it ain't broke don't fix it?
We usually disagree on everything but it's the nature of chaos that eventually you'd get it right.
Since Bill has dropped the issue since he moved in with his new roommates, it sounds like he was just using the curtain as an excuse to vent his spleen on you about unrelated issues. I recommend leaving the past in the past and moving on, walking in the light of forgiveness and understanding.
On the other hand, Bill sounds like a turkey.
If he brings the problem up again, stop by his new place and visit a bit. Afterward, swing by the local Goodwill thrift outlet and buy him 12 bucks worth of used crap that his apartment just might need. The key phrase is "tacky, but useful": Old salt shakers, golashes, gaudy curtains, faded quilts, used plates and a mismatched gravy boat, etc. Wait until he's not home, then bring it by and give it to one of his roommates. Explain about the shower curtain and let him know that these are items you thought Bill could use, as a "peace offering". If done properly, Bill's roommates should be left wondering why he lost his grip over a moldy shower curtain and why you think he would want some old crap from a bargain-basement thrift store.
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Have another social situation for you to pick apart. This happened with my roommate who just moved out a few weeks ago.
Several months ago Mr. Nepherti's parents made the 3-hour drive for a weekend visit. At the time, we lived with our friend, let's call him Bill. It was Sunday afternoon, both Bill and I were at work. Mr. Nepherti was at the house with his parents. Now, every time his mother visits, she has to clean. She catches us up on laundry, she does dishes, she makes sure we have bleach, dryer sheets, laundry soap, and plenty of things like towels or dish rags.
While cleaning up, she noticed that the shower curtain was fairly moldy on the bottom. So she ran to Wal-Mart and bought a new shower curtain (one with a fancy outer curtain and a clear replaceable liner), matching towels for the little bar across from the toilet, matching soap dispenser for the sink, and new hooks to hang the curtain up. She took the old hooks and put them in a baggie and put them in the junk drawer. She threw away the old moldy shower curtain.
I got home from work, saw the new stuff and loved it. I thanked my de facto mother-in-law and we went out to dinner. After the parents left to go back north, Bill gets home from work. He goes to the bathroom and notices the new stuff. He comes back out and asks me where his shower curtain is. I explain what happened. He begins the start ranting about how she needs to replace his shower curtain cause he paid money for it and he was going to take it with him when he moved. Not to Mr. Nepherti, not to Mr. Nepherti's parents....to me.
Over the course of the next few months until two weeks ago when he moved out, he approached me several more times about the shower curtain situation, telling me how rude and disrespectful it was of her to throw away a shower curtain that didn't belong to her.
Mind you, he has failed to take the hooks for the curtain to his new place. Those hooks are nice hooks, they probably cost more than the curtain itself. They are still in a...
It is obvious that this isn't about the shower curtain - its about Bill. Humans need to think that if they are sharing a part of their life with others - that there is a degree of equality - which means consultation. You forgot that.
You mean my mother in law forgot that. I merely relayed to him the situation and expressed my opinion that a shower curtain is something I would not fuss over.
If that night had not been trash night, there would be no issue. And btw, I have dropped it with him, I just thought it might make for interesting discussion considering we can go for 700+ posts on milk etiquette.
Reason #421 why I'll chew my own tongue off before I'll ever live with someone else after the divorce is final.
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Clearly, there is nothing left to do but tie the baggie of shower curtain rings to a brick and throw it through his new bedroom window, with a note attached saying "FORGET SOMETHING?". He wouldn't be able to take you to court without having to explain to a judge about how he was nagging you about a shower curtain and then didn't bother taking the rings with him. Catharsis!*
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Hmmm. I think Murph might be on to something. I am highly territorial and don't like owing people, so Bill reminds me of me.
I actually do make a decent housemate, because I don't regard most of the house as my territory. I don't like people in my room or my ensuite (if I have one), and I don't like people moving things in those rooms. If someone throws out something I regard as "mine" I get angry though - regardless of how little it costs.
It's not the monetary cost, its the violation of territoriality. (I don't like *me* throwing my things out either, but I can do it because I know the alternative is to store everything I've ever owned. It's hard though.)
If my mother in law, or anyone's mother in law, came to my house and cleaned I would go crazy the entire time that they're there. I know that it would be rude to say that, so I'd grind my teeth and wait for her to go away. If she then threw out something that was mine... wow. See to me, that feels like an attack, like someone is trying to edge me out of my space.
Not sure why I'm so territorial, and it's getting better now that I have kids. It might be - well is - irrational, but it is how I am. Most people do have it, but to a much more limited degree - say about underwear.
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The part where he loses my sympathy is the fact that he's taking this up with you instead of the husband or mother-in-law.
But honestly I think she over-stepped a boundary by throwing out something that belonged to him without consulting him, no matter what she thought of it, or how little it was worth.
And she didn't get him a new one, she got you guys a new one.
No good deed goes unpunished.
IMHO, he is a childish whiner, and should have thanked her for the new curtains since he didn't even have the decency to clean the old ones.
I didn't even realize it was his until he said something. I thought it was leftover from the old tenants when we first moved in. It was Bill's sister's place before we moved in, and I thought it was the one she left when she moved out. That's what I do when I move. I'm like Hitdice in the fact that there's always been one left behind by the old tenants when I move in. I guess I just think of shower curtains, much like window blinds and shelf paper, as one of those items that is sans ownership, it's "for the house."
Yeah sure Neph, but I bet with all the matching towels and soap dishes, you're going to take your shower curtain with you when you move, aren't you? :P
I've lived in apartments where I had to provide my own shower curtain.
If I bought a shower curtain and my roommates threw it out, I'd probably be irked, but I wouldn't make a big flippin' deal over it and I'd get over it pretty quickly.
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Now I'm a little skeeved out. I didn't realize that there were people who would move into an apartment and use the shower curtain that was there. I think in every apartment I've ever had there wasn't one, but if there was, I would have pulled it down and put up a new one.
You don't know who used that shower or what they did in it. Just sayin'.
Now I'm a little skeeved out. I didn't realize that there were people who would move into an apartment and use the shower curtain that was there. I think in every apartment I've ever had there wasn't one, but if there was, I would have pulled it down and put up a new one.
You don't know who used that shower or what they did in it. Just sayin'.
Given my own behavior in there, there's no way theirs could be any worse than my own; protected by the bottom of the barrel, baby!
But seriously, what do you do when you move in a place with a glass door on the shower?
Just be glad they didn't put a hole in the wall of the shower.
Now I'm a little skeeved out. I didn't realize that there were people who would move into an apartment and use the shower curtain that was there. I think in every apartment I've ever had there wasn't one, but if there was, I would have pulled it down and put up a new one.
You don't know who used that shower or what they did in it. Just sayin'.
I'd put up a new one, but use the old one as a dropcloth for painting.
Yeah I think Bill has a point here.
He was nice enough to allow strangers into his home and they essentially said "Your level of hygenine is not up to my standards" and then those people went and scrubbed and threw out his stuff.
Yeah, your mother in law was extremely rude and ungracious as a guest and if it had happened to me, my roommates relations critcizing the way I live, I'd have told you to find a Best Western nearby next time they come for a visit because they sure as heck wouldn't stay with me a second time.
If the hospitality wasn't good enough for them they should have left. Not for nothing if you and your husband and Bill didn't have an issue with the cleanliness level of the household then your guests should be respectful or leave.
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Loch I'm not saying there aren't two sides to every issue, but if you think throwing out a ratty old shower curtain and replacing it with a nice new one is extremely rude, you need to meet more rude people. I am curious as to how Bill would have reacted had the subject been broached previous to Shower Curtain Banditry, but that we'll never know.
Loch I'm not saying there aren't two sides to every issue, but if you think throwing out a ratty old shower curtain and replacing it with a nice new one is extremely rude, you need to meet more rude people.
Stranger comes into my house and criticizes me.
Yep, that's extremely rude to me.
Loch I'm not saying there aren't two sides to every issue, but if you think throwing out a ratty old shower curtain and replacing it with a nice new one is extremely rude, you need to meet more rude people.Stranger comes into my house and criticizes me.
Yep, that's extremely rude to me.
Here's where the conversation goes off the rails, but: What would you call slightly rude?
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Now I'm a little skeeved out. I didn't realize that there were people who would move into an apartment and use the shower curtain that was there. I think in every apartment I've ever had there wasn't one, but if there was, I would have pulled it down and put up a new one.
You don't know who used that shower or what they did in it. Just sayin'.
Given my own behavior in there, there's no way theirs could be any worse than my own; protected by the bottom of the barrel, baby!
But seriously, what do you do when you move in a place with a glass door on the shower?
Wash it with bleach.
Here's where the conversation goes off the rails, but: What would you call slightly rude?
You really can't see how having another adult criticize you in your own home can be offensive to someone? Especially if you are hosting those people?
Well I can see that and it would offend me.
The whole "bought a nice shower curtain" only comes after the Mother in law made a value judgment on Bill's hygenine and lifstyle, a thing she was not asked, expected or obligated to do.
No one likes "help" if it comes at the cost of being belittled.
"Here let me clean your house, because you are to lazy, ill equipped or grotesque to do it yourself or you are simply not up to my standards, I will treat you like a child." While that might not have been the Mother's INTENT, that is probably what Bill "heard".
The problem, as I see it, and if I'm reading the OP correctly - it wasn't Bill's house. He was sharing the place and the rooms. He may have bought the shower curtain, but if the bathroom was a common area, then the shower curtain could be considered as common property, unless he insisted otherwise the entire time it was up. Did he ask everyone else to take it down and use a different one when they showered?
Remember Bill moved out, not the OP and her spouse. IMO, mother-in-law had every reason to believe the things there belonged to her son and his spouse and thought she was doing them a favor. If anyone had reason to object to her cleaning binge it would be OP & spouse, not Bill.
And hey, if she wants to come clean MY house...
Perhaps a better thing to do would have been for OP/son to have said 'Hey, that part of the house is our roomate's stuff. Ignore it.'
Here's where the conversation goes off the rails, but: What would you call slightly rude?You really can't see how having another adult criticize you in your own home can be offensive to someone? Especially if you are hosting those people?
Well I can see that and it would offend me.
The whole "bought a nice shower curtain" only comes after the Mother in law made a value judgment on Bill's hygenine and lifstyle, a thing she was not asked, expected or obligated to do.
No one likes "help" if it comes at the cost of being belittled.
"Here let me clean your house, because you are to lazy, ill equipped or grotesque to do it yourself or you are simply not up to my standards, I will treat you like a child." While that might not have been the Mother's INTENT, that is probably what Bill "heard".
We're all (well, except for Neph) monday morning quarterbacking an incident we didn't even see televised, but if Bill heard something that that wasn't intended, then his oversensitivity is as much at issue as his roommate's mother's manners.
When someone is extremely rude (using a racial slur about me to my face, describing the various sex acts you like to commit with my girlfriend) a fistfight isn't out of the question. Having someone come into a shared living space and start cleaning with the unspoken judgement that entails is what I would call off-putting.
There's plenty of space between off-putting and extremely rude, and, speaking as a worker the service industry, if you can't tell the difference, you haven't met enough rude people.
When someone is extremely rude (using a racial slur about me to my face, describing the various sex acts you like to commit with my girlfriend) a fistfight isn't out of the question. Having someone come into a shared living space and start cleaning with the unspoken judgement that entails is what I would call off-putting.
There's plenty of space between off-putting and extremely rude, and, speaking as a worker the service industry, if you can't tell the difference, you haven't met enough rude people.
So she was off putting and not extremely rude...OK.
I'm not going to nit pick over completely subjective adjectives (is he tall or VERY tall?!?).
I think my point stands. If Bill was paying a portion of the rent and utilities it's HIS house too. I can't speak to why he singled the OP out or why he thinks taking shower curtains with him is a good idea, but I think the Mother was a bad guest. Not going to quibble about degrees.
From what I could gather from the OP, the mother-in-law has done this before (sans shower curtain replacement) with no complaints from Bill. If Bill had a problem with the actual cleaning, he should have mentioned that earlier.
Secondly, the OP has also explained that she didn't even know the shower curtain belonged to Bill. Perhaps her husband didn't know that either. Which makes the rage over its removal even more absurd.
From what I could gather from the OP, the mother-in-law has done this before (sans shower curtain replacement) with no complaints from Bill. If Bill had a problem with the actual cleaning, he should have mentioned that earlier.
Secondly, the OP has also explained that she didn't even know the shower curtain belonged to Bill. Perhaps her husband didn't know that either. Which makes the rage over its removal even more absurd.
I've been picturing this scene:
"...Threw out my shower curtain! So now, when I move out, you're just going to keep your fancy shower curtain, AREN'T YOU?!"
"I hadn't really considered the shower curtain custody issue, Bill."
I didn't mean to quibble Loch, but when you put extremely before rude every time you use the word, some discussion of degrees is allowed.
Harking back to the Terrible Milk Incident, throwing out the shower curtain without replacing it would have been a douchebag move.