In many of the APs, the PCs come across temples to Rovagug, Lamashtu, Urgathoa, and so forth. Those temples usually have really cool features, like fountains of blood that carry horrifying diseases, or pools of Waters of Lamashtu that can turn people into monsters.
Well, my PCs aren't content to simply kill all the worshippers in these temples; they want to smashy-smashy anything and everything to desecrate the temple.
Unfortunately, none of the rules write-ups that I've seen cover this: If you smash the altar with the Waters of Lamashtu, does it just smash and your god smiles on you, or does Lamashtu drop a can of cursy badness on your head?
I'd love to see a generic write-up of, "This is how you desecrate a temple, and these are the saving throws you have to make to not end up the Big Bad Curse Buddy of the god you just ticked off."
I just ran RotRL for the group last night, and they just poured holy water on an altar and smashed it to pieces. Seemed awfully easy, but nothing in the writeup said anything about the temple having any protections. I like godly vengeance myself; you can't go around defiling temples until you're a high enough level to ignore the consequences.
Just curious to see what other people think.
It would depend. Modern churches that are sanctified loose that status if violence occurs there or if blood is shed.
Cast hallow or unhallow on it. Use pee as the divine focus
I think it depends a lot on the size and status of the temple. A wayside or personal hidden shrine probably won't get too much attention. Large shrines may have ongoing (permanent) spells, divine spells acting as traps, etc. The personal shrine of a saint of the faith, which also acts as his/her crypt? That might get ugly.
Overall, I'd say that in 90+% of the temples, the deity doesn't care that much and considers any power given to the wardens of the site (a.k.a. cleric levels) to be sufficient protection. The other 10%, weeeeelll - that's where the DM can start getting creative.
Overall, I'd say defeating the guardians, defacing the site (or, depending on your view, consecrating it), removing and ideally reversing any ongoing spells and ideally consecrating the site to a deity of different (reverse) alignment will get the job done. It will certainly put the PCs quite high on that faith's s..t list, at least relative to their level.
I think it depends a lot on the size and status of the temple. A wayside or personal hidden shrine probably won't get too much attention. Large shrines may have ongoing (permanent) spells, divine spells acting as traps, etc. The personal shrine of a saint of the faith, which also acts as his/her crypt? That might get ugly.
Overall, I'd say that in 90+% of the temples, the deity doesn't care that much and considers any power given to the wardens of the site (a.k.a. cleric levels) to be sufficient protection. The other 10%, weeeeelll - that's where the DM can start getting creative.
Overall, I'd say defeating the guardians, defacing the site (or, depending on your view, consecrating it), removing and ideally reversing any ongoing spells and ideally consecrating the site to a deity of different (reverse) alignment will get the job done. It will certainly put the PCs quite high on that faith's s..t list, at least relative to their level.
I like that... good insight! And considering this was one of several temples within a small radius indicates they're probably not all THAT important to the offended deity. But the idea that writeups of major temples should include permanent spells (Scarwall, anyone?), and minor temples just get clerics is probably a good indicator of how important the temple is.
If the consecrate spell still exists (I have no idea if it does or not in some form) I suppose you could dump that inside the evil temple.
Nice, but these are ultra-low-level (2nd) PCs. They don't have any decent spells, so their only option was smashing.
For higher-level PCs, dispelling the Unhallow and casting Hallow is always a great way to mess with someone else's temple...
Topple idols and bless the relics. Knowledge Religion would help. And sunder.
You can't desecrate an evil temple. They come pre-naughtified. But you can consecrate it...
the word youre lookin for is "purify"
and nothing purifies like fire.....
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Pee on it.
Creating a direct conduit between the unholy altar of Lamashtu and Mr. Winky seems... unwise.
I'd go with burning the place to the ground, channeling some positive energy to cleanse the area of 'bad juju' and then quenching the smoldering ashes with holy water. Plant some seeds in the ashes, and let nature reclaim the site.
Nothing pisses off a deity worse than droppin' a fresh dookie on an evil altar.
Nothing pisses off a russian worse than pissing on a statue: link
How does one desecrate a temple? Hire a Russian girl-band to hold a protest there...
Pee on it.But that might be "holy" water for someone like Jubilex! ;)
noway I am paying 25 gold for that..
For low level PCs purifying low level temples I think smashing evil idols, springkling holy water, painting good symbols and burning incense would to a lot to make the site unusable for the evil worshippers.
At least temporary.
For those temples, to "desecrate" them you put in tasteful marble fountains and white marble alters to Sarenrae.
Unless they used sealant on those marble floors, those pee stains are going to be there forever! EVER! EVER! EVER!
Thats an echo effect.
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If the PCs want to purify/befoul a temple that badly I would make it into an adventure regardless of level.
Have one of the PCs make a knowledge (religion) check and from that roll, lay down the ground rules:
They must hold the temple for twenty four hours and during that time, every other hour on the hour and at dawn must call upon the light of their blessed deity, invoke a prayer and burn the sacred incense (or if they're higher level cast a specific spell). That alone will forever purge the taint of this unholy temple.
Thirteen prayers in twenty four hours. Of course every surviving priest and cultist will do their worst to see the ritual is disrupted. And just before the last prayer that is when the affronted deity sends his own personal, level-appropriate representative to shut down the affair.
Should be more exciting than just urinating on the place. :)
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
If the PCs want to purify/befoul a temple that badly I would make it into an adventure regardless of level.
Have one of the PCs make a knowledge (religion) check and from that roll, lay down the ground rules:
They must hold the temple for twenty four hours and during that time, every other hour on the hour and at dawn must call upon the light of their blessed deity, invoke a prayer and burn the sacred incense (or if they're higher level cast a specific spell). That alone will forever purge the taint of this unholy temple.
Thirteen prayers in twenty four hours. Of course every surviving priest and cultist will do their worst to see the ritual is disrupted. And just before the last prayer that is when the affronted deity sends his own personal, level-appropriate representative to shut down the affair.
Should be more exciting than just urinating on the place. :)
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
Excelent idea...that remains me alittle to a reversed Call Forth Darkness, int the good way.
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consecrate it. Convert it into a church of your own (hopefully better aligned) deity by turning the unholy water into holy water, reversing the magic of the blood fountain to turn it into wine, that sort of thing. That way, you've taken away the evil gods influence and put in yours, so that extra boost should be sufficient to keep any curses off your mojo.
Then, if its a church of Lamashtu, draw a mustache on her.
And desecrating an evil temple doesn't?Pee on it.Creating a direct conduit between the unholy altar of Lamashtu and Mr. Winky seems... unwise.
Desecrating (consecrating/purging/purifying) an evil temple is perfectly legitimate business for your typical average everyday heroic adventurer type. As a profession where doing the...unwise...is a daily affair purely for profi...erm, Justice™, that is part of the expected risk.
Linking your Marital Tackle© to the Evil Goddess of Malformed Spawn of Dark Ruttings© is going, for lack of a better term, below and beyond the call of duty. Also a perfect opportunity for an especially sadistic GM to get their hooks in you.
Metaphorically.
...I hope.
Ow.
My 3rd edition Sorcerer decided to pee on an alter of Hextor. The next thing we knew, an (un?) holy warrior of Hextor turned up and TPK'd the party. I never heard the end of that one.
*sigh* Could anyone please explain this... fixation on urinating some people here seem to exhibit to me?
Archaic 'marking of territory' insinct? Adolescent penile fixation?
Childish humor.
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It's a combination of instinct and childish humour.
There's some part of the male brain that still connects dominance with peeing on things.
Now, speaking as a life-long nihilist who spent 13 years in Catholic School, I practically have a PhD in blasphemy and desecration.
Okay, so what you need is someone with Knowledge (Religion) and you need to catalog the holy symbols and discover their meaning.
Anyone can pee on a holy symbol, or invert it, but if you know what its meant to represent, you can truly defile it.
For example, peeing on a virginity idol isn't as good as using it to deflower a virgin.
Inverting a crucifix isn't nearly as bad as displaying Jesus as happy and laughing, or in sexual ecstasy, while being crucified, as his suffering is a major key to the image. You've disarmed the image by removing the key to it.
Desecration of evil temples is easy. Steal valuables and give them to charity, specifically charities that counter act the evil god's specific spheres of influence.
Bless the remains of sacrificial remains.
Use a sacrificial dagger to carve up a roast and serve it to the poor.
Don't smash the temple, clean it up, make it look pretty and remove all the objects of worship.
Stuff like that.
*sigh* Could anyone please explain this... fixation on urinating some people here seem to exhibit to me?
Archaic 'marking of territory' insinct? Adolescent penile fixation?
Somewhere between the two lies the truth.
Fleshgrinder hashed it out a bit further, but my own not-so-Cliff-Notes explanation is that, while sterile*, urine is still considered to be a fouling substance, as a jettisoning of liquid waste. Circumstances involving urination tend to be viewed comedically, such as when a person in a suit has his ankles 'watered' by someone's little dog, or someone unwittingly receiving a bit of precipitate at the bottom of a location while someone up on a cliff or building or other high place relieves themselves. Of course, this particular flavor of comedy is understandably considered low-brow, and just as often is centered around males purely for the typification of the ability to aim and direct the stream due to equipment - females used in such circumstances are usually treated as a source of fetish on top of the intended humor, as the target audience is not typically one well-acquainted with the anatomical details of their distaff counterparts. It also is used to play up the desperate qualities or general patheticness of the surprised victim - "I touched a girl, even if by proxy" is still considered the height of comedy among certain circles.
Granted, it's a very verbose way to say 'Toilet Humor is Funny!'**
That said act is also a common way to show disregard, lack of respect, and contemptuous disdain for any subject matter takes the reason for the recurrance of topic further. However, this is where difficulties can and do arise; as an act viewed as 'dirty', there are foul entities who might consider such an action as proper tribute or acknowledgment, such as Jubilex or other beings associated with filth and disgustingness. As the venerative anatomy is also either directly used for, or proximitive to in the female case, the reproductive functions, which are relevant to the interest of the abovementioned Lamashtu, the wisdom of providing any means of her exerting her power over you is clearly called into question, as her ideals of corrupted mass reproductions could lead to a hijacking of Mr. Richard or Madame "See You" Next Tuesday.
Unless, of course, you are playing a Paladin of the big C. C., and your expellate after the consumption of sacred booze is holy water. Then, it's not only demeaning, it would be infuriating enough to prompt Lamashtu sending a more powerful foe to avenge such disrespect and offense. Also, Fleshgringer's other details, taking the evil stinky nasty vile bleh out of a place makes for a similar sort of de-vile-ing of a location. Imagine the aggrieved power's reaction to their former center of worship now providing cookies and milk to ORPHANS!
*to the person that emitted/expelled it
**yes, I was that bored
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Sure, why not. Make a Beautification project out of it.
It depends on whether you/the DM think it's the *act itself* which consecrates the area (i.e. the 'good' intention behind the action), or a particular ritual that must be undertaken (i.e. Consecrate, holy water).
[mostly tongue in cheek in this next paragraph->)
Also, traditionally the evil path is the *easy* path. It is easy to be evil or selfish. It is difficult to be good. Expelling bodily fluids = easy and arguably an 'evil' action rather than 'good'. Sitting down and having a tea party in tight corsets, with inane conversations and overly-sweet cake = frackin difficult and therefore 'good'.
In many of the APs, the PCs come across temples to Rovagug, Lamashtu, Urgathoa, and so forth. Those temples usually have really cool features, like fountains of blood that carry horrifying diseases, or pools of Waters of Lamashtu that can turn people into monsters.
Well, my PCs aren't content to simply kill all the worshippers in these temples; they want to smashy-smashy anything and everything to desecrate the temple.
Evil have much more interesting temples than Good. Why should those pesky good characters be allowed to destroy cool stuff like that? Just wave the DM-hammer and say "No. I want maidens to turn into monsters by bathing naked in this pool."
(just had an urge to say that; now please return to your regularly-scheduled discussion on the proper methods of desecration!)
Sure, why not. Make a Beautification project out of it.
It depends on whether you/the DM think it's the *act itself* which consecrates the area (i.e. the 'good' intention behind the action), or a particular ritual that must be undertaken (i.e. Consecrate, holy water).
[mostly tongue in cheek in this next paragraph->)
Also, traditionally the evil path is the *easy* path. It is easy to be evil or selfish. It is difficult to be good. Expelling bodily fluids = easy and arguably an 'evil' action rather than 'good'. Sitting down and having a tea party in tight corsets, with inane conversations and overly-sweet cake = frackin difficult and therefore 'good'.
I am SOOOOO making my group's drow paladin wear a corset and host a tea party! She's conflicted enough as it is -- this might just send her over the edge!
I am SOOOOO making my group's drow paladin wear a corset and host a tea party! She's conflicted enough as it is -- this might just send her over the edge!
Argh! I read the 'she' part after imagining the sight. Vividly. With a male drow.
Now, how do I get this image out of my head again...?|
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I am SOOOOO making my group's drow paladin wear a corset and host a tea party! She's conflicted enough as it is -- this might just send her over the edge!
Dirty comments
To just reinforce the no peeing thing, it's even an actual sacrament of LeVayan Satanism to eat something akin to the cracker you eat in church, but it's been soaked in urine first.
I believe it's actually a triangle or trapezoid of turnip soaked in female urine.
It's been a long time since I read into it though, so I may be slightly off.
But yeah, pissing all over a black mass probably wouldn't even bother an evil religion.
Sacrifice large amount of gold on the altar at once. Do not sacrifice small amounts multiple times for it will be considered an act of worship and shift your alignment toward the altar.
I am SOOOOO making my group's drow paladin wear a corset and host a tea party! She's conflicted enough as it is -- this might just send her over the edge!Argh! I read the 'she' part after imagining the sight. Vividly. With a male drow.
Now, how do I get this image out of my head again...?
He, she... Even as a drow, it's still an elf - what difference there could be? :P
Y'know, at this point I have no idea whether to be proud or ashamed that I ever started this thread...
Honey, stop by home depot and pick up 15 gallons of holy water, and some Spackle.
I prefer the barbarian way of consecrating/desecrating. (It works on both kinds of temple)
Break everything, burn the ruins, scatter the ashes, all the while screaming offensive epithets at the gods. Said epithets have to be something offensive to the god in question, i.e. calling Asmodeus a bastard doesn't work, but calling him a wuss does.
You'll know you're sucessful if you get hit by a lighting bolt or a couple curses. You'll be really sucesfull if you get curses AND ligthning.
Only true way of desecrating ANY temple:
Get a Bard.
Force him to sing MLP songs.
That's all.
Except, for everyone's sake, let the Wizard cast Deafness on the whole party before starting, and prevent the Bard from suiciding.