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Kinda new to PF and we are playing through Kingmaker. However some tihngs have come to our attention. We knew spellcasters are still overpowered but our party ended up with the following.
Level 9.
1 Battle Cleric (Strength/War or sub domains, Gorum)
1 Paladin (of Erastil)
1 Ranger (bow)
1 Arcane Trickster (Wiz 3/Rog3/AT3)
The Paladin and Cleric both use two handed weapons. Much like 3.5 however two handed weapons seem overpowered (at least compared to TWF, and sword+shield) and archery still seems to be great (has been since 3.0).
Some of the options in 3.5 don't really exist in Pathfinder however and I am considering allowing them into PF. Anyhting that makes a spellcaster drastically better and most archery/THW type feats won't be allowed however. 3.5 for example had a weapon known a s a Jovar- exotic weapon greatsword with an 18-20 threat range or a falchinn that dealt 2d6. Put simply do you think PF is lacking some options for the melee types in various areas?
I am considering the following feats and books that I may have to tweak.
Close Quarters Fighting Feat.
Grants an attack of opportunity when someone tries a grapple. In 3.5 you added the damage dealt off the attack to your opposed roll. In PF it would be added to your CMD. PCs are getting sick of auto losing grapple rolls to anything that is basically huge.
Players Hand Book 2.
Specifically they had feat chains that powered up sword and board builds along with high level fighter type feats that made weapon specialisation very good.
Spell Compendium/Magic Item Compendium.
I picked these up towards the end of 3.5. Under utilised and most of it can be used in PF without any houseruling required. Most of the spells in the spell compendium were less powerful than PHB spells, MIC had interesting and cheaper items in it.
Duelist
Technically from Knights of the Old Republic game. 3 feats, each one gives you +1 to hit and +1 AC when using a one handed weapon in one hand and nothing in the other. All 3 feats gave you +3 to hit, +3 AC. I usually houseruled these feats into 3.5 as everyone and thier dog using melee usually went THW- great swords, jovars, axes etc.
One of my favorite spells is 3.5. Servant horde. Wiz/SOr 3 As unseen servant, but summons 2d6+ caster level servants (max 15). Its fun.
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Careful with buffing one handed fighters with a free hand until after you've checked out the Crane Style series of feats, they make a one handed or unarmed combatant obnoxiously hard to hit, moreso if they're actually using the Duelist Prestige Class.
There's very little from 3.5 I don't typically allow, other than feats/abilities that have been re-written to work differently in Pathfinder, like Cleave and Great Cleave.
If my player wants to pull some 3.5 stuff, I'll typically just give it a quick one-over to make sure I'm not letting anything that will evolve into an obscene and unholy beast that'll undermine everyone's gaming experience, see if it's already in the conversion guide, offer any suggestions that I think will help with the conversion, and let my players have fun :)
Have you looked through the Advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Combat? There may be some stuff in those books that address the stuff you brought up.
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We still do Gestalting from Unearthed Arcana
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Tome of Battle in a heartbeat. I love that book.
Have you looked through the Advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Combat? There may be some stuff in those books that address the stuff you brought up.
I have those books along with ultimate magic but IDK the builds or ways to build the characters though.
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/shrug...
honestly we consider 3.5 and Pathfinder to be completely different games. They updated the rules.. they reinvented their prestige classes... they cut feats they didn't like, and added ones they do.
I have heard a LOT of complaining about how 'OP' 3.5 got... so unless I was VERY VERY familiar with them, I wouldn't allow any of the classes/feats with SERIOUS consideration.
Granted we made the switch from 2E to Pathfinder... so I don't have any attachment to 3.5, but Pathfinder itself has a LOT of material already playtested for their classes... I'd be leary of making assumptions on stuff they chose NOT to include...
There were a ton of spells from Spell Compendium I liked to use and feats from PH2 among others sources, but my group doesn't mix PF and 3.5 at all. In general, IMHO, the more options a system has, the easier it is to manipulate it in ways unintended. There were thankfully only a few times I played with someone who power-gamed to the extent that I was embarassed for them, but it came at the height (and end of) 3.5 glory, bloated as it was on WOTC splat books and Dragon magazine feats (penned, ironically, by Paizo).
But, if your group can mix the two systems responsibly, then I see no problem.
I would allow the spells from Spell Compendium on a case by case basis. Wraithstrike was really powerful. Yes there is a spell with the same name as myself. There is also a spell that turns a natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus. That can give someone a really high touch AC. Many of the spell also give immunity which PF is against.
There are also some evil spells that are pretty viscous. I can't recall the name, but there is at last one high level spell that takes away half of your hit points if you make the save.
I use a lot of stuff from the Monster Manuals, usually sticking to 1-3. Other than that, no one has really asked to use anything.
I allow most stuff from 3.5 but only after I've checked it out and made sure it's not already covered in PF
I would allow the spells from Spell Compendium on a case by case basis. Wraithstrike was really powerful. Yes there is a spell with the same name as myself. There is also a spell that turns a natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus. That can give someone a really high touch AC. Many of the spell also give immunity which PF is against.
There are also some evil spells that are pretty viscous. I can't recall the name, but there is at last one high level spell that takes away half of your hit points if you make the save.
As I said it was goign to be on a case by case basis and usually in areas that are neglected or under supported by Paizo in comparison to say archery or two handed weapons.
I allow Tome of Battle and Magic of Incarnum. I might offer Tome of Magic, too. But since my group really hasn't had much interest in using them, I don't really push the issue. I am, however, dumping monks from the new homebrew I'm working on. If someone wants to play something like that, they can choose from one of the classes in the ToB.
I do wish for "multiclassing" as I remember it from the old days (1st edition AD&D). I am told that this was called "gestalt" in 3.5.
I agree. Gestalt is what multiclassing should have been.
The Paladin and Cleric both use two handed weapons. Much like 3.5 however two handed weapons seem overpowered (at least compared to TWF, and sword+shield) and archery still seems to be great (has been since 3.0).
For a smiting paladin the real badassery is sword & board, (Improved Shield Bash & TWF feat tree). At 9th level our paladin is bringing tears to the DM's eyes when he smites evil...
Some of the options in 3.5 don't really exist in Pathfinder however and I am considering allowing them into PF.
Actually, what may be an idea is asking if anyone knows how to do "X" in Pathfinder, the options may be there but not as obvious as they were.
Always thought you could have had gestalt characters in a normal 3.5 game if you gave them a level adjustment.
This may not be the place to ask, but how much level adjustment would a Gestalt be worth in a regular party?
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This may not be the place to ask, but how much level adjustment would a Gestalt be worth in a regular party?
Personally I would take advantage of the PF multiple XP tracks.
Single class = fast track
Two class gestalt = medium track
Three class gestalt [2nd ed fighter/mage/thief] = slow track
@ Knight Magenta - I believe they recommend a 25% increase in the CRs for encounters to make up for Gestalt. That seems to work pretty well.
However, I like Spiral_Ninja's idea. We use Gestalt all the time, and I had not thought about it that way. I may have to consider that for my next campaign.
This may not be the place to ask, but how much level adjustment would a Gestalt be worth in a regular party?
I asked my PCs about this and most of them thought LA +1 it was a no brainer to gestalt, +2 was a maybe and +3 is to high.
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As a word of warning here, when you look at D&D 3.5, the Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium were repositories of some of the most ridiculously unbalanced things of that entire edition cycle. I personally suggest not allowing them into your campaign.
Also, your players are level 9, and should be over half way through the adventure path and have pretty well developed their characters. Are they asking you for these changes or are you just trying to implement them yourself?
When it comes to grappling (or anything else) remember that almost any bonus to your AC (except for armour, shield or natural armour bonuses) also adds to your CMD. Similarly bonuses to hit add to CMB. A /lot/ of people miss that.
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.
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As a word of warning here, when you look at D&D 3.5, the Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium were repositories of some of the most ridiculously unbalanced things of that entire edition cycle. I personally suggest not allowing them into your campaign.
I understand that the SC versions were nerfed compared to the originally published versions.
We started using some SC and MIC stuff in the weekend. Its on a case by case basis however. The crafting rules in PF are alot more liberal and in the kingmaker adventure path during some downtime they all crafted +6 items (headgear/belts) for themselves apparently.
We started using some SC and MIC stuff in the weekend. Its on a case by case basis however. The crafting rules in PF are alot more liberal and in the kingmaker adventure path during some downtime they all crafted +6 items (headgear/belts) for themselves apparently.
Apparently? That's just weird to me, all of that requires GM approval if I'm not mistaken. (Would in my games, anyway.)
As my name suggests, I allow quite a lot from 3.5 lol.
I avoid OP prestige classes and ridiculous feats, and go from there for fun and profit.
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I don't allow Magic of Incarnum, only because I did not like it enough to learn a new subsystem. I might try if a player made a compelling argument though.
I'd stick strictly to Pathfinder. 3.5 just has too much... clutter to deal with.
Yeah, I don't use everything from all the side 3.5 sources. A setting has to have an idea of what is in it and what is outside of it. In a low magic world for instance, there will be a limit on spellcaster prestige classes.
We started using some SC and MIC stuff in the weekend. Its on a case by case basis however. The crafting rules in PF are alot more liberal and in the kingmaker adventure path during some downtime they all crafted +6 items (headgear/belts) for themselves apparently.Apparently? That's just weird to me, all of that requires GM approval if I'm not mistaken. (Would in my games, anyway.)
It was RAW and they got a large amount of treasure at the end of part 3 of kingmaker and they done it as part of leveling up there PCs while I was distracted with some other stuff. They crafted +6 stat buff items and similar things when I wasn't looking.
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It was RAW and they got a large amount of treasure at the end of part 3 of kingmaker and they done it as part of leveling up there PCs while I was distracted with some other stuff. They crafted +6 stat buff items and similar things when I wasn't looking.We started using some SC and MIC stuff in the weekend. Its on a case by case basis however. The crafting rules in PF are alot more liberal and in the kingmaker adventure path during some downtime they all crafted +6 items (headgear/belts) for themselves apparently.Apparently? That's just weird to me, all of that requires GM approval if I'm not mistaken. (Would in my games, anyway.)
Yeah, I would still require that all such creations be approved by me.
Apparently? That's just weird to me, all of that requires GM approval if I'm not mistaken. (Would in my games, anyway.)
Rumor has it, that is one of the BIG pitfalls of Kingmaker. LOTS of resources.... LOTS of Time...
DM's have been encouraged to keep a TIGHT leash on the Crafting in that AP. Players can get overpowered very quickly.
They don't have to cheat... they don't even have to tweak or even bend the rules.. it's all right there above board.
We'll be starting that one in about a month, and our DM told us to NOT expect the crafting to be as easy as we were doing in Serpent Skull ;)
Which is REALLY something that needs to be addressed at the beginning of the game. If your 3 books in, and suddenly my character CAN"T do something that RAW says I can... I would be VERY annoyed at the bait and switch...
If I had the time, the money, resources and the skill to get that +6 item, I'd want to hear a good reason why I suddenly CAN'T have it.. ;)
Interesting. Playing in Curse of the Crimson Throne right now and it's been necessary to take crafting feats just to keep our equipment up to something close to WBL in usefulness - in fact most of us are only at about 50%-60% WBL, the exception being the bladebound magus thanks to his balck blade - and that's with the DM being very generous with letting us trade in items we found we could not use as 'components' to craft new stuff.
I'd allow basically anything that didn't buff the primary spellcasters. I might even allow most of Spell Compendium, as other than a few problem spells, that book was pretty well balanced.
Main things I wouldn't allow are: full progression caster prestige classes (+10 CL over 10 levels), infinite loop tricks, the 3E persistent spell feat and night sticks (I don't have a problem w/ divine metamagic when you're actually spending a crapton of turn undead / channel energy uses on it and the benefit lasts only as long as the spell, not 24 hours), the entire Savage Species book (it's broken and illogical [for example, one of the angels gets flight ~level 6 and large size ~level 19 -- WTF?!!!!] and not compatible w/ 3.5 anymore), the entire Complete Psionics book (it needlessly nerfs things that were fine, just a terrible book overall), acorn of far travel, most of the "wings of" spells (like wings of flurry and wings of cover), Power Word Pain spell, Abrupt Jaunt conjuror class feature, and some other assorted things.
Notice basically the entire list aside from the Savage Species and Comp. Psi garbage are caster-related, reining in their excesses? No nerfs to rogue's sneak attack, or monk's acquiring Imp. Natural Attack, or barbarians insta-dying if they go unconscious while raging, or impossible tumble DCs, or level 1 Barbarians with pounce, or any other crap that martials had nerfed or banned by pathfinder? Notice?
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I'd allow basically anything that didn't buff the primary spellcasters. I might even allow most of Spell Compendium, as other than a few problem spells, that book was pretty well balanced.
Main things I wouldn't allow are: full progression caster prestige classes (+10 CL over 10 levels), infinite loop tricks, the 3E persistent spell feat and night sticks (I don't have a problem w/ divine metamagic when you're actually spending a crapton of turn undead / channel energy uses on it and the benefit lasts only as long as the spell, not 24 hours), the entire Savage Species book (it's broken and illogical [for example, one of the angels gets flight ~level 6 and large size ~level 19 -- WTF?!!!!] and not compatible w/ 3.5 anymore), the entire Complete Psionics book (it needlessly nerfs things that were fine, just a terrible book overall), acorn of far travel, most of the "wings of" spells (like wings of flurry and wings of cover), Power Word Pain spell, Abrupt Jaunt conjuror class feature, and some other assorted things.
Notice basically the entire list aside from the Savage Species and Comp. Psi garbage are caster-related, reining in their excesses? No nerfs to rogue's sneak attack, or monk's acquiring Imp. Natural Attack, or barbarians insta-dying if they go unconscious while raging, or impossible tumble DCs, or level 1 Barbarians with pounce, or any other crap that martials had nerfed or banned by pathfinder? Notice?
But how do you really feel? ;-)
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I'd allow basically anything that didn't buff the primary spellcasters. I might even allow most of Spell Compendium, as other than a few problem spells, that book was pretty well balanced.
Main things I wouldn't allow are: full progression caster prestige classes (+10 CL over 10 levels), infinite loop tricks, the 3E persistent spell feat and night sticks (I don't have a problem w/ divine metamagic when you're actually spending a crapton of turn undead / channel energy uses on it and the benefit lasts only as long as the spell, not 24 hours), the entire Savage Species book (it's broken and illogical [for example, one of the angels gets flight ~level 6 and large size ~level 19 -- WTF?!!!!] and not compatible w/ 3.5 anymore), the entire Complete Psionics book (it needlessly nerfs things that were fine, just a terrible book overall), acorn of far travel, most of the "wings of" spells (like wings of flurry and wings of cover), Power Word Pain spell, Abrupt Jaunt conjuror class feature, and some other assorted things.
Notice basically the entire list aside from the Savage Species and Comp. Psi garbage are caster-related, reining in their excesses? No nerfs to rogue's sneak attack, or monk's acquiring Imp. Natural Attack, or barbarians insta-dying if they go unconscious while raging, or impossible tumble DCs, or level 1 Barbarians with pounce, or any other crap that martials had nerfed or banned by pathfinder? Notice?
Let your nerdrage flow. Don't contain it. Let it spill over the streets and bridges, let your foes drown in the flood of your anger. Don't hold back. Gloat as the designers perish in the stream of steaming acid. Laugh as they, all too late, realize your superiority.
Everything and nothing, sort of :)
Now, given the amount of PFRPG material, both Paizo and 3PP, I only allow PFRPG material. But, if a player approaches me with a cool 3.5 idea, we just work to find the equivalent PFRPG, which at this time, you can pretty much do 100% of the time.
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I would allow the spells from Spell Compendium on a case by case basis. Wraithstrike was really powerful. Yes there is a spell with the same name as myself. There is also a spell that turns a natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus. That can give someone a really high touch AC. Many of the spell also give immunity which PF is against.
There are also some evil spells that are pretty viscous. I can't recall the name, but there is at last one high level spell that takes away half of your hit points if you make the save.
I remember that spell that turned a natural armor bonus into deflection... Wasn't it Scintillating Scales or something like that? I remember being in an extremely upset party when my friend brought over an Ancient Black Dragon from a 3.5 adventure that had that spell and my wizard couldn't land a ranged touch for the life of him and the gunslinger was reduced to using Dead Shot to deal any reasonable amount of damage.
Spell Compendium was such a great book. And pretty much a nail in the coffin for anyone playing a non-caster in our group that wasn't one of the classes from Book of Nine Swords. Good ol' 3.5....|
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I'd allow basically anything that didn't buff the primary spellcasters. I might even allow most of Spell Compendium, as other than a few problem spells, that book was pretty well balanced.
Main things I wouldn't allow are: full progression caster prestige classes (+10 CL over 10 levels), infinite loop tricks, the 3E persistent spell feat and night sticks (I don't have a problem w/ divine metamagic when you're actually spending a crapton of turn undead / channel energy uses on it and the benefit lasts only as long as the spell, not 24 hours), the entire Savage Species book (it's broken and illogical [for example, one of the angels gets flight ~level 6 and large size ~level 19 -- WTF?!!!!] and not compatible w/ 3.5 anymore), the entire Complete Psionics book (it needlessly nerfs things that were fine, just a terrible book overall), acorn of far travel, most of the "wings of" spells (like wings of flurry and wings of cover), Power Word Pain spell, Abrupt Jaunt conjuror class feature, and some other assorted things.
Notice basically the entire list aside from the Savage Species and Comp. Psi garbage are caster-related, reining in their excesses? No nerfs to rogue's sneak attack, or monk's acquiring Imp. Natural Attack, or barbarians insta-dying if they go unconscious while raging, or impossible tumble DCs, or level 1 Barbarians with pounce, or any other crap that martials had nerfed or banned by pathfinder? Notice?
Didyou mean Expanded Psionics? Because Complete Psionics didn't change the mechanics of how Psionics worked (Expanded did that) it just introduced some awesome Psionic classes that filled the tank and rogue niches (niche'? nichii?) and introduced the concept of Psionic Mantles. I personally loved Complete Psionics and allow it in my PF campaign.
You know what else I miss from 3.5? Magic of Incarnum. It wasn't a great book overall, since it was missing having enough support for the base classes it introduced in favor of a lot of mediocre multi-classing stuff, but it had a few sweet builds that were really fun (the Totemist and Incarnate were kind of like the Synthesist and Magus of 3.5, at least the way I played them).
One of the games I'm in the GM has removed most magic gear and basically freely gestalted everyone in the party with Incarnate, and removed the class limitations on what melds you can use.
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One of the games I'm in the GM has removed most magic gear and basically freely gestalted everyone in the party with Incarnate, and removed the class limitations on what melds you can use.
I actually considered doing something very similar for an aquatic campaign I ran, but we ended up having half the group composed of players who were new to the game and I thought it would be a little too much to put on them.
Gruumsh, although reading Orcs of Golarion already hints at him.
I would allow the spells from Spell Compendium on a case by case basis. Wraithstrike was really powerful. Yes there is a spell with the same name as myself. There is also a spell that turns a natural armor bonus into a deflection bonus. That can give someone a really high touch AC. Many of the spell also give immunity which PF is against.
There are also some evil spells that are pretty viscous. I can't recall the name, but there is at last one high level spell that takes away half of your hit points if you make the save.
I remember that spell that turned a natural armor bonus into deflection... Wasn't it Scintillating Scales or something like that? I remember being in an extremely upset party when my friend brought over an Ancient Black Dragon from a 3.5 adventure that had that spell and my wizard couldn't land a ranged touch for the life of him and the gunslinger was reduced to using Dead Shot to deal any reasonable amount of damage.
Spell Compendium was such a great book. And pretty much a nail in the coffin for anyone playing a non-caster in our group that wasn't one of the classes from Book of Nine Swords. Good ol' 3.5....
Yeah it was Scintillating Spells. The spell should have been capped depending on caster level IMHO. Well I guess in 3.5 it was ok if you used a lot of splat books, but for PF I would modify it.
Didyou mean Expanded Psionics? Because Complete Psionics didn't change the mechanics of how Psionics worked (Expanded did that) it just introduced some awesome Psionic classes that filled the tank and rogue niches (niche'? nichii?) and introduced the concept of Psionic Mantles. I personally loved Complete Psionics and allow it in my PF campaign.
You may want to re-read your beloved copy of C.Psi.
It nerfed the save DCs of energy missile and energy stun to half the progression they used to have*, it inexplicably made the crystal shard type spells have damage reduction apply even though similar spell effects did NOT suffer from this sort of requirement, and most infuriatingly... they limited you to one astral construct out at a time! Summon Monster has no such restrictions. Whether or not you thought multiple astral constructs were necessary, it was still a nerf to something no one was even complaining about. And then, because the writers hadn't been classy enough already...they introduced a prestige class in that very book to bypass the 1 astral construct at a time limitation they had just enforced with the very same book!
I'm sure it screwed over other things, too. Just the ones I recall. IIRC, dragon magazine actually had fairly decent mind blade feats for the woefully underpowered soulknife that C.Psi chose to "update" (and thus render the former ones obsolete) by splitting up into many many different feats what used to be a handful of good ones w/ multiple options. Oh and they introduced a prestige class for psions that basically gives them wilder's main surging schtick...except with less drawbacks. Cause wilder wasn't already worthless enough compared to psion.
It's a terrible book. Sorry, but do some google searches. It is probably the most hated book of 3E, and one of the most all time hated books of all of D&D.
*This was possibly justified; the DCs scaled crazy fast using the original rules. At the same time, the high DCs were basically the main reason to use those powers in the first place, and the latter was a kineticist-only power others needed to spend a feat to gain.
Wraithstrike was one of the most broken things in that book, for the same reason PF gun rules are broken: full attack touch attacks that you can apply Power Attack (or in guns' case, Deadly Aim) to.
It's especially funny, since wraithstrike is a level 2 sorc/wiz spell, and then there's a level FOUR paladin/ranger/assassin (they got spells back then) spell in the same book called Find the Gap that gives you one attack against touch AC per round. Yeah, it lasts for round/level...it also cost a standard to cast instead of swift, and how long to combats tend to actually last? Oh, and it's level FOUR. On classes who get level 4 spells around when wizards get level EIGHT spells.
(TL;DR: Find the Gap = good and balanced; Wraithstrike = lulzbroken)