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Alright, got a question for you guys. It states several times that the spells not in the core rulebook, are considered 'rare'. Now, how do you guys handle this? Do you make the hard to find? Maybe someone cannot learn or get scrolls of them without going through a lot of trouble? Or do you just make them available? I'm curious if the 'rare' spells are a balancing mechanic for spell casters, but I cant find a hard and fast mechanic for it in the rules (maybe I missed it). Thanks for the input in advance!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Xavier, I don't think it's a balancing mechanic -- once you get access to a rare 3rd-level spell, it shouldn't be any more powerful than any other 3rd-level spell -- but rather as flavor. Adventurers in Golarion are expecting to run into wizards casting fireball, and they recognize that sepll. They aren't expecting to run into a spell that conjures hundreds of spectral pirannha to chew into any targets in a 30' cone.
Mechanically, it's easier for arcane casters; rare spells are hard to find. For clerics and other divine casters, their deity might demand some short service in exchange for bestowing the spell.
The way I handle it in my campaign: All spells have a "rarity" rating of "common," "rare," or "unique." Here's a summary of my homebrew rules...
Common spells are generally well-known among students of magic. The DC to identify common spells is normal. Spell-trigger and spell-competion items crafted with common spells are at standard availability and prices. Spellcasters can freely choose new common spells when they level up. In my game, all spells from the Core Rulebook, plus a few others, are common.
Rare spells are not regularly seen, and are not often mentioned in magical literature (arcane or divine). Most spellcasters have not encountered these spells. Rare spells must be encountered in-game before they can be used by the PCs-- whether by finding in a scroll, spellbook, or rare holy text, or taught by another caster that already knows it. The DC to identify an ufamiliar Rare spell or magic item via Spellcraft is +5. Spells from Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, and Inner Sea Magic are considered rare.
Unique spells are the result of successful independent magical research, and are only known by a single spellcaster (or a tiny cabal). Unique spells can only be acquired from the creator or from records left by the creator. The DC to identify unique spells via Spellcraft is at +10. Spells from any other sources are considered to be unique.
PCs can conduct independent spell research to "find" any spell in a published Paizo product (subject to GM approval), according to the normal independent spell research rules.
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The way I handle it in my campaign: All spells have a "rarity" rating of "common," "rare," or "unique." Here's a summary of my homebrew rules...
Common spells are generally well-known among students of magic. The DC to identify common spells is normal. Spell-trigger and spell-competion items crafted with common spells are at standard availability and prices. Spellcasters can freely choose new common spells when they level up. In my game, all spells from the Core Rulebook, plus a few others, are common.
Rare spells are not regularly seen, and are not often mentioned in magical literature (arcane or divine). Most spellcasters have not encountered these spells. Rare spells must be encountered in-game before they can be used by the PCs-- whether by finding in a scroll, spellbook, or rare holy text, or taught by another caster that already knows it. The DC to identify an ufamiliar Rare spell or magic item via Spellcraft is +5. Spells from Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, and Inner Sea Magic are considered rare.
Unique spells are the result of successful independent magical research, and are only known by a single spellcaster (or a tiny cabal). Unique spells can only be acquired from the creator or from records left by the creator. The DC to identify unique spells via Spellcraft is at +10. Spells from any other sources are considered to be unique.
PCs can conduct independent spell research to "find" any spell in a published Paizo product (subject to GM approval), according to the normal independent spell research rules.
They are also color-coded (black for common, silver for rare and gold for unique) and come is booster packs each containing a random selection of 8 commons, 3 rares and 1 unique. ;)
Alright, got a question for you guys. It states several times that the spells not in the core rulebook, are considered 'rare'. Now, how do you guys handle this? Do you make the hard to find? Maybe someone cannot learn or get scrolls of them without going through a lot of trouble? Or do you just make them available? I'm curious if the 'rare' spells are a balancing mechanic for spell casters, but I cant find a hard and fast mechanic for it in the rules (maybe I missed it). Thanks for the input in advance!
Can you cite where it states this?
The only thing I could find in the CRB is this...
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to half the cost to write the spell into a spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). Rare and unique spells might cost significantly more.
... but it never mentions what counts as a rare or unique spell.
If the spell caster wants the spell, the player has to come up with a convincing reason they'd research the spell and make it themselves (a homebrew mechanic).
To make a spell:
- 8 hrs. of research time, 4 hrs. if it's a Cantrip/Orison
- Spellcraft check DC 15 + Double Spell's Level to complete it
- Caster Level check DC 20 + Spell's level when casting for the first time. Success: Spell is perfect, they're on their way. Failure: No negative consequences to the caster, but they gotta start over.
However, my definition of "Rare" spell is any that wasn't printed in any official Pathfinder book, which basically boils down to anything that's homebrew, 3PP, or those rare cantrips that Paizo made but didn't put them in any book.
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I knew a fellow GM who hated that clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, etc., automatically gained instant access to every divine spell from every book as it was published simply by praying for it, whereas wizards and other book-casters were stuck paying for scrolls to gain every spell they couldn't learn due to their piddly 2-spells-gained-per-level mechanic.
He handled it pretty much the way described by the OP. Core books were fair & splat books were rare. If a cleric wanted to cast something from the Spell Compendium, they needed to seek out and make a donation to a temple that possessed a holy text containing the secret knowledge of "The Divine Sutra of the Outer Planar Bartender" or whatever (that's not a real spell but it should be.)
I've played around with the idea of deities only granting certain spells from the divine list as an alternative to the current system, but I've never put it into practice; kind of like an "opposed schools" for clerics. As an example, a deity dedicated to healing might not grant spells that deal damage no matter how hard a cleric prays.
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hmm so no hard and fast rules. We generally just let everyone have everything. it doesnt seem to unbalance things much, and i agree, without something that makes things equal between the divine and book casters, you get an unfair feeling between players. you get wizards struggling to find something other than fireball and fly for third level, and clerics waving their shiny new rare spells around without trying. So does anyone just make them all equal availability?
The way I see it is that the non-core spells should be learnable through use of the Spellcraft skill and research, but not automatically learned through leveling, divine casters included. Doing this would put the advantage of learning new spells in the Wizard's court, which makes quite a bit of sense considering they are the most magic-oriented class and should be at the forefront of learning and creating new spells.
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Hmmm that's very true. So not super super hard to get, just something you have to actually put effort into getting. though that creates problems for spont casters. if you're in the middle of adventuring when you level, and you're forced to pick a spell you dont want b/c it's in the core rule book, you're kinda royally screwed. except for trading out a spell every other level, you have to live with those spells forever. and you get precious few of them. that and spont casters dont research crap. they just GET their magic, spontaneously. for clerics, they have to know what spell to ask for, so yeah, that makes sense, same with wizards, magus, etc. any prepared caster really. but spontaneous ones, i wouldnt make them research no standard spells, it could really bite them in the arse. do you agree?
Part of the problem that I have when I hear 'CRB only' is that there is content that could not have been squeezed into the CRB. Now, that doesn't mean I don't have occassional issues with the APG, UM, or UC (more towards the latter though) it does mean that wholesale banning those books seriously reduces some options that were intended to help some classes and fill in some gaps.
Making all APG, UM, and UC spells 'rare' is basically the same thing imo. Again, that doesn't mean I wont someday ban or restrict (such as rare) a spell or ability. I just don't like the idea of applying 'rare' to an entire book of spells.
- Gauss
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I agree with you Gauss, honestly. And that is what I am leaning toward. doing stuff on a case by case basis. For example, "Geb's hammer" which is a spell that let's you mush undead into some kind of katamari ball of doom, would be rare, as it's a spell that is found only in geb really. but something like infernal healing? Probably not.
I just allow all the spells, so far anyway. Many of the best spells are in the core book so if I am allowing them....
With the inclusion of classes that are presented in non-core material, I believe they should be allowed their exclusive spells in addition to the ones in the CRB. Spells from their non native book or CRB would have to be researched as normal.
The availability of spells from non-core sources is a highly subjective matter and might vary according to a variant of a character you're playing. For example: Someone decides to play a Divine Hunter Paladin. What I would do is take away some of their explicitly melee spells (such as Sun Metal and Holy Sword) and replace them with the ranged and archery themed spells available in other books. A Spellslinger Wizard would have the firearm-related spells available to them (a fair trade IMHO for sacrificing 4 schools)
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I think it also matters greatly what type of campaign world you're playing in. High or low magic for example. In Golarion, Different areas have different levels of magic. I think I'll continue with Gauss' idea and simply take specific spells that appear outlandish or wouldnt be available in the are the players are currently in, and make them rare. Though in some places, ti talks about 'rare' spells versus 'common' spells. In the case of those rules, such as the pathfinder society abilities from the faction guide, I would most likely consider anything non-core to be 'rare' for determining what spells you can and cant get from the pathfinder society for low CPA.