Yesterday my party did some quick math and in the end complained that their equip is underpowered for their levels, while for me it completely the other way around.
Anyway i strictly follow what the tables say as to what treasure giving them with each encounter (obviously not every encoun. gives loot).
The last session they stayed in a village for over a week upgrading their magic items and crafting new ones when needed,and each one of them still has well over 2000-2500 gold left after that.
Their char:
CG (medium humanoid, elf)
Initiative +3 ; Senses Low light vision ; Perception +4
Traits Corageous – Focused mind
Defense
AC 20 ,Touch 14 ,Flat footed 17 ( Armor +6, Dex+3, Deflection +1 Size )
HP 48 (6d8+6+4+6 )
Fortitude +7 , Reflexes +8 , Will +5 (+7 vs. fear)
DR no ; Immune no ; SR no
Weakness no
Offense
Speed 30 ft
Melee +1 Scimitar +9 (1d6+4/18-20 x2)
Ranged mw composite longbow (str+1) +8 (1d8+1/x2)
Space med.creature ; Reach 5ft
Special attacks Spell combat; Spell strike
Spells (CL5 ; Concentration +13 )
2nd level :Frigid touch (x2); Bull's strength ; Scorching ray
1st level : Shocking grasp (x2); Magic missile ; Shield
Cantrips : Acid splash ; Detect magic ; Dancing lights ; Read magic; Disrupt undead
Statistics
Str 16 , Dex 16 , Con 12 , Int 16 , Wis 8 , Cha 10
BaB +4 ; CMB +7 ; CMD 20
Feats Combat casting, Weapon focus scimitar, Thoughness, Craft magic arms/armors
Skills Acrobatics +4, Craft-alchemy- +9, Escape artist +5, Ride +8, Knowledge arcana +12, Knowledge dungeoneering +7, Knowledge planes +8, Stealth +5, Swim +8, Perception +4, Spellcraft +12/+14, Climb +7, Fly +3
Lang Not relevant
SQ magus arcana pool (6) ; 3rd level arcana-familiar (weasel) ; Spell recall ; 6th level arcana (Prescient attack)
Possessions +1 Scimitar ; +2 Chain shirt ; Cloak of resistance +1 ; potion of Shield ; 2x potion of Cure light wounds ;
potion of Owl's wisdom ; Ring of protection +1 ; Bag of holding type I ;
NG (medium humanoid,dwarf)
Initiative +1 ; Senses darkvision 60 ft ; Perception +6
Traits Anatomist– Undead slayer
Defense
AC 21 ,Touch 11 ,Flat footed 20 ( Armor +7, Dex+1, Shield +2, Natural +1 Size )
HP 46 (6d8+12 )
Fortitude +7 , Reflexes +3 , Will +9
DR no ; Immune no ; SR no
Weakness no
Offense
Speed 20 ft
Melee +1 Dwarven waraxe +7 (1d10+2/x3)
Ranged Mw crossbow,heavy +6 (1d10/19-20 x2)
Space med.creature ; Reach 5ft
Special attacks Domains (Death-Healing) / Channel positive en. 3xday (3d6/save will DC13)
Spells (CL5 ; Concentration +13 )
3rd level : Magic circle against evil ; Dispel magic ; Prayer ; Cure serious wounds (D)
2nd level : Bull's strength ; Sound burst ; Hold person ; Aid ; Cure moderate wounds (D)
1st level : Endure elements; Protection from evil ; Bless ; Shield of faith ; Cure light wounds (D)
Orisons : Create water ; Detect magic ; Resistance ; Stabilize
Statistics
Str 12 ,Dex 12 , Con 14 , Int 12 , Wis 19 , Cha 10
BaB +4 ; CMB +5 ; CMD 16 (20 vs bull rush/trip attempts)
Feats Combat casting, Weapon focus Dwarven waraxe, Ironhide
Skills Knowledge arcana +5, Knowledge nobility +5, Knowledge religions +9, Diplomacy +7, Heal +11,
Sense motive +10, Perception+6, Spellcraft +5, Climb +2, Appraise +6
Lang Not relevant
SQ Death domain (Bleeding touch 7xday)-Healing domain (Rebuke death 7xday / Healer's blessing )
Possessions +1 Dwarven waraxe ; +1 Breastplate ; +1 Light steel shield ; potion of Shield ; 13x potion of Cure light wounds , scroll of Cure moderate wounds ; potion of Cure serious wounds ; Ring of feather fall ; Mw crossbow,heavy ;
N (medium humanoid,human)
Initiative +5 ; Senses Perception +3
Traits Anatomist– Adopted (Elven reflexes)
Defense
AC 22 ,Touch 14 ,Flat footed 18 ( Armor +7, Dex+3, Shield +1, Dodge+1, Size )
HP 55 (6d10+12 )
Fortitude +7 , Reflexes +5 , Will +3 (+5 vs fear)
DR no ; Immune no ; SR no
Weakness no
Offense
Speed 30ft
Melee +1 Two-bladed sword (two handed) +14/+9 (1d8+10/19-20 x2) or
+1 Two-bladed sword (two weapons fighting) +12/+7 - +12/+7 (1d8+8-1d8+8/19-20 x2)
Ranged mw composite longbow (str +2) +9 (1d8+2/x3)
Space med.creature ; Reach 5ft
Special attacks no
Spells no
Statistics
Str 18 ,Dex 17 , Con 14 , Int 10 , Wis 12 , Cha 8
BaB +6/+1 ; CMB +10 ; CMD 23
Feats Exotic wepons proficiency (two bladed sword), Weapon focus two bladed sword, Dodge, Two weapons fighting,
Two weapons defense, Weapon specialization two bladed sword, Double slice, Improved two weapons fighting
Skills Handle animals+3, Ride+8, Knowledge dungeoneering+4, Intimidate+8, Linguistics+1, Swim+9,
Perception+4, Climb +8, Survival+9
Lang Not relevant
SQ Bravery+2; Armor training 1; Weapon training (blades,heavy) 1
Possessions +1 Two-bladed sword ; +1 breastplate ; Gauntlets of ogre power +2 str ; potion of Protection from evil ;
potion of Enlarge person ; 5xpotion of Cure light wounds ; potion of Cure moderate wounds
CG (medium outsider, native)
Initiative +12 ; Senses darkvision 60 ft ; Perception +9 (+11 traps)
Traits Reactionary – Exile
Defense
AC 20 ,Touch 16 ,Flat footed 15 ( Armor +4, Dex+4, Dodge+1, Deflection +1 Size, +1 vs traps)
HP 42 (6d8+6)
Fortitude +4 , Reflexes +10 (+12 traps) , Will +3
DR no ; Immune no ; SR no ; Resistances Fire 5, Cold 5, Electricity 5
Weakness no
Offense
Speed 30 ft
Melee mw rapier +10 (1d6+1/18-20 x2)
Ranged mw composite shortbow (str+1) +9 (1d6+1/x3)
Space med.creature ; Reach 5ft
Special attacks Sneak attack 3d6 + bleed
Spell-like ability ( CL5 ; Concentration +6 ) Darkness 1xday
Statistics
Str 12 , Dex 18 , Con 12 , Int 14 , Wis 10 , Cha 12
BaB +4 ; CMB +4 ; CMD 19
Feats Improved initiative, Dodge, Mobility
Skills Acrobatics +18, Escape artist +12, Disguise+6, Disable device +13(+15 traps), Ride +5, Knowledge local +8, Diplomacy +8, Perform dance+6, Stealth +14, Intimidate+8, Sense motive+9, Perception +9 (+11 traps), Bluff +11
Sleight of hands+9, Climb +6, Survival+1, UMD+8, Appraise+6
Lang Not relevant
SQ Rogue talents (Bleeding attack // Finesse rogue// Weapon focus rapier) ; Trapfinding; Evasion; Trap sense +1 Uncanny dodge ;
Possessions Mithral chain shirt ; mw rapier ; Ring of resistance +1 mw composite shortbow (str+1);Boots of tumbling +5 ; potion of Cat's grace ; 2x potion of Cure light wounds ; potion of Endure elements ;
Amulet of deflection +1
LG (medium outsider, native)
Initiative +1 ; Senses darkvision 60 ft ; Perception +7
Traits Anatomist – Flame of the Dawnflower
Defense
AC 26 ,Touch 12 ,Flat footed 24 ( Armor +11,Shield+3, Dex+1, Dodge+1 Size)
HP 56 (6d8+12)
Fortitude +10 , Reflexes +6, Will +9
DR no ; Immune no ; SR no ; Resistances Acid 5, Cold 5, Electricity 5
Weakness no
Offense
Speed 20 ft
Melee +1 scimitar +10/+5 (1d6+3/18-20 x2)
Ranged mw composite longbow (str+1) +8/+3 (1d8+1/x3)
Space med.creature ; Reach 5ft
Special attacks Smite evil (+3 attack/+5 dam, against evil creatures); Channel positive energy (3d6 // save will DC15)
Spell-like ability ( CL5 ; Concentration +8 ) Daylight 1xday
Spells ( CL2 ; Concentration +5 )
1st level Lesser restoration; Grace
Statistics
Str 15 , Dex 13 , Con 14 , Int 12 , Wis 12 , Cha 16
BaB +6/+1 ; CMB +8 ; CMD 19
Feats Weapon focus scimitar, Dodge, Power attack
Skills Ride +6, Knowledge religion +7, Diplomacy +14, Intimidate+4, Sense motive+10, Perception +7,
Survival+2
Lang Not relevant
SQ Mercy (Sickened,Diseased) ;Aura of good; Detect evil ; Divine grace; Lay on hands 5x day; Aura of courage; Divine health; Channel positive energy; Divine bond (bonded weapon)
Possessions +2 Full plate; +1 scimitar ; +1 steel shield,heavy ;mw composite longtbow (str+1);
potion of Cure moderate wounds ; 2x potion of Cure light wounds
NG (medium humanoid, human)
Initiative +2 ; Senses Perception +2
Traits Indomitable faith – World traveler
Defense
AC 17 ,Touch 12, Flat footed 15 ( Armor +4, Dex+2, Natural+1 Size )
HP 35 (6d6+6 )
Fortitude +4 , Reflexes +5 , Will +6
DR no ; Immune no ; SR no ; Resistances Fire 5
Weakness no
Offense
Speed 30 ft
Melee claws +4 (1d4+1/ x2)
Ranged mw crossbow +6 (1d8/19-20x2)
Space med.creature ; Reach 5ft
Special attacks Spells
Spells (CL6 ; Concentration +15 )
3rd level (4xday) : Fireball
2nd level (6xday) :Acid arrow; Mirror images ; Resist energy*
1st level (8xday) : Magic missile; Burning hands ; Shield ; Mage armor* ; Enlarge person
Cantrips (at will) : Acid splash ; Detect magic ; Resistance ; Read magic ; Light ; Disrupt undead ; Ray of frost
Statistics
Str 12 , Dex 14 , Con 12 , Int 10 , Wis 8 , Cha 20
BaB +3 ; CMB +4 ; CMD 16
Feats Combat casting, Prof. Light armors, Arcane armor training, Craft wondrous item
Skills Bluff +13, Escape artist +4, Ride +3, Knowledge arcana +5, Diplomacy +14, Perform dance+7, Intimidate +6
Linguistics +1, Perception +2 , Spellcraft +14
Lang Not relevant
SQ Natural attacks-claws; Dragon resistances ; Spells dealing energy dam of the bloodline's dragon type add +1 dam x die rolled of that energy type
Possessions Mithral chain shirt; Amulet of resistance +1 ; mw crossbow,light ; Rod of Magic missile (CL 3 // 7 charges left) ; 5x potion of Cure light wounds ; scroll of Shocking grasp ; potion of Shield ; scroll od Summon monster I
Amulet of Endure elements (6 charges xday) ; Tiara of +6 Spellcraft ; Rod of Mage armor (CL 1 // 50 charges left)
Its your campaign and your well within your rights to make it low magic by having less gold/loot.
the wealth by level tables are an indication of how much gear a character needs to fit into the CR scale for you making encounters, but since you control encounter strength that's not an issue, so long as your encoutners are fun and challenge there is no rule that says they have to have X amount of gold at 6th level
also you have 6 players so there is less loot to go around than if you handed out the same amount of loot to 4 players
tell them if two people want to leave the remaining 4 can have their stuff :P *joke*
Its your campaign and your well within your rights to make it low magic by having less gold/loot.
the wealth by level tables are an indication of how much gear a character needs to fit into the CR scale for you making encounters, but since you control encounter strength that's not an issue, so long as your encoutners are fun and challenge there is no rule that says they have to have X amount of gold at 6th level
also you have 6 players so there is less loot to go around than if you handed out the same amount of loot to 4 players
tell them if two people want to leave the remaining 4 can have their stuff :P *joke*
OK, besides those consideration and assuming a standard PF game,i try to give what the party should have at a given level in a normal magic world (for the stadard PF rules)
if you want some "average" estimate on what wealth is okay, look into what starting wealth level 6 characters would have, to be flexible I would say you can easily be +25/-25% in difference to the amount
for characters with a poor/street urchin-kinda background, and for those with rich parents/noble and wealthy background this could also be an additional modifier
A quick evaluation of the elf magus shows she has 12,515 gp in gear.
WBL for level 6 suggests 16,000 gp. So by that standard you are being stingy.
However, you have a large group: 16,000 x 4 (standard party size) = 64,000 gp / 6 (your group size) = 10,667 gp
So by that you are being generous. :)
Quick note: Shield cannot be made into a potion.
Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
- Gauss
A quick evaluation of the elf magus shows she has 12,515 gp in gear.
WBL for level 6 suggests 16,000 gp. So by that standard you are being stingy.
However, you have a large group: 16,000 x 4 (standard party size) = 64,000 gp / 6 (your group size) = 10,667 gp
So by that you are being generous. :)
Not to mention each person has 2,000-2,500 gold in addition to the gear they have. So I'd say they are pretty close to the WBL for 4 people, and quite a bit over for 6.
Based on some very rough and quick equipment calculations, and including 2,000 gold cash each, they all seem light by roughly 6,000 gp using the wealth by level table. That assumes that they just made 6th level. If they are about to make 7th, they are about 13,500 gp shy.
The treasure values per encounter table assumes every encounter will give loot. If some encounters don't, you have to make that up somewhere else - an encounter will have to give "extra" treasure. This is assuming you want to stick to the wealth by level guidelines (I would highly recommend it).
Yes, they just made 6th
Note: Im not counting nickles and dimes so prices do not include costs like basic weapon prices.
+1 Scimitar = 1300gp (Crafted)
+2 Chain Shirt = 2250gp (Crafted)
+1 Cloak of resistance =1000gp
Potion of Shield (illegal)
2 Potions of CLW = 100gp
Potion of Owl's Wisdom = 300gp
Ring of Protection +1 = 2000gp
Bag of Holding type 1 = 2500gp
MW Composite Long Bow +1str = 500gp
Total: 9950gp.
Short about 6000gp.
Note: does not include purchased spells in spellbook since you did not provide them.
+1 Dwarven Waraxe = 2300gp
+1 Breastplate = 1350gp
+1 Light steel shield = 1150gp
Potion of Shield = Illegal
13x potion of Cure light wounds = 650gp
Scroll of Cure moderate wounds = 150gp
Potion of Cure serious wounds = 300gp
Ring of feather fall = 2200gp
Mw crossbow,heavy = 300gp
Total: 8400gp
Short about 7600gp.
+1 Two-bladed sword = 4600gp (assuming both sides are magic)
+1 breastplate = 1350gp
Gauntlets of ogre power +2 str = 4000gp (Note: does not exist anymore, should be a belt of Giant Strength +2)
potion of Protection from evil = 50gp
potion of Enlarge person = 50gp
5xpotion of Cure light wounds = 250gp
potion of Cure moderate wounds = 300gp
MW Composite Long bow +2str = 600gp
Total: 11200gp
Short about 4800gp
Mithral chain shirt = 1100gp
mw rapier = 300gp
Ring of resistance +1 = 1000gp (Note: should be a Cloak of Resistance +1)
mw composite shortbow (str+1) = 450gp
Boots of tumbling +5 = 2500gp (Note: Should be Boots of Elvenkind giving +5 Acrobatics)
potion of Cat's grace = 300gp
2x potion of Cure light wounds = 100gp
potion of Endure elements = 50gp
Amulet of deflection +1 = 2000gp (Note: Should be a Ring of Deflection)
Total: 7800gp
Short about 8200gp.
+2 Full plate = 5650gp
+1 Scimitar = 2300gp
+1 Steel Shield, Heavy = 1150gp
MW Composite Long Bow (str+1) = 500gp
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds = 300gp
2x Potion of Cure Light Wounds = 100gp
Total: 10000gp
Short about 6000gp.
Mithral chain shirt = 1100gp
Amulet of resistance +1 = 500gp (crafted, should be a Cloak of Resistance +1)
mw crossbow,light = 300gp
Rod of Magic missile (CL 3 // 7 charges left) = 315gp (Note: assumes this is actually a Wand of Magic Missile. Rods do not do this.)
5x potion of Cure light wounds = 250gp
scroll of Shocking grasp = 25gp
potion of Shield = Illegal
scroll od Summon monster I = 25gp (If this is not Caster Level 1 the price goes up by 25gp per CL)
Amulet of Endure elements (6 charges xday) = ?? Custom Pricing approx: 1080gp (Crafted, 2160gp Originally)
Tiara of +6 Spellcraft = 1800gp (Crafted, 3600gp original)
Rod of Mage armor (CL 1 // 50 charges left) = 750gp (Note: assumes this is actually a Wand of Mage Armor. Rods do not do this.)
Total: 6145gp
Short about 9855gp.
Overall you are shorting the group about:
6000
7600
4800
8200
6000
9855
Grand Total that you are shorting them: approximately 42,455gp via WBL on CRB p399.
If each of them also has 2000gp in cash that comes down to 30,455gp (approximately).
Now, if you want to do run a low magic campaign that is up to you. But, as far as the baseline WBL they are correct.
- Gauss
Also i didn't count party shared possessions; another 2 or 3 magical arms/armors they still have to decide if keeping or selling or upgrading.
Anyway thanks for the insights.
Edit: @Gauss, we are italian, there could be translation issue, but sometime they came up with their own crafted items and care nothing if Corebook puts one bonus on cloaks instead of amulets.
To assign something to a different slot actually costs more money, because the nature of items is a limiter of its own. Otherwise, a fighter would get a belt of strength+2 and a hat of Con+2 and save 2000 gp on not getting a belt of Str&Con+2.
This all balances out, and is there to balance the system so one class is not unfairly advantageous over another in terms of magical items. (Of course, one could argue that a wizard, who needs only Int on the mental side, and benefits from Con and/or Dex on the physical side, does have such a benefit)
Do you intend for them to have wealth by level? With more players, the power level is already increased, and their survivability is much higher, making it so that they can survive with less.
Gandal:
I don't see much problem with reskinning items (such as Amulets of Resistance) as long as balance is maintained. Back in 3.5 different items had multiple locations to choose from depending on what the players wanted (Magic Item Compendium). Pathfinder went the opposite direction and limited the locations again. It even went further to codify adding powers together. By allowing too much reskinning you could be bypassing some of the item location limitations.
However, Rods are a specific magic item while Wands are a different specific magic item. As long as you understand which is which you are fine. :) If in italian the two got swapped around somehow so be it.
On the other hand Potions of Shield are flat out illegal. Unless of course you have ruled that in your games Personal spells CAN be made into a potion. In which case you have made a house rule. (Which is also fine, I have several of my own.)
The only other item I would be concerned with is the Boots of Tumbling. Since there is no tumbling skill anymore they should be Boots of Acrobatics (which are actually Boots of Elvenkind). Tumbling was folded into the Acrobatics skill.
- Gauss
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Tell themif they want more wealth they should invest more wisely. Less loot and more farms and railroads that produce steady income ;)
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Just a note for the fighter.....he has a two bladed sword +1. When enchanting a double weapon you need to enchant each end separately each with it's own separate costs. His attack line when twfing shows no difference in damage per side so is this a +1/+1 two-bladed sword or just a +1 two-bladed sword?
Fake Healer: In my workup I was assuming they paid for both ends. However, considering the disparity (about 2000gp on average) between the TWF fighter and the rest of the group it is my guess they paid only for one side.
- Gauss
Just a note for the fighter.....he has a two bladed sword +1. When enchanting a double weapon you need to enchant each end separately each with it's own separate costs. His attack line when twfing shows no difference in damage per side so is this a +1/+1 two-bladed sword or just a +1 two-bladed sword?
Both ends are +1, plus he has the Double slice feat.
Edit:it has been crafted, not bought, so each end costed half as much.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gandal: If the Magus crafts a weapon for the Fighter at half price the Fighter is still at full price as far as WBL is concerned. This is because the Fighter does not have Craft Arms and Armor and is therefore not allowed to financially benefit from the Magus's feat.
The FAQ that covers this is HERE
- Gauss
WBL is a guideline so that you know a party of 4 balanced people with that much wealth can handle their own CR worth of critters while having the appropriate resources to do so.
When you have more than 4 people, or very well built party of 4, you should ask yourself: Are they balanced vs their CR?
If they are weaker, a lil more gear isn't a bad idea. If they are steam rolling things- then you either need to tone back on gear abit or up the CR of the encounters to compensate.
When you have more than 4 people the issue really is the same. Are 6 guys having trouble in tthe fights or are they having it too easy?
Wealth is just part of the equation- and "too stingy" or "too generous" really don't come into play. What You, the DM, should do is try to figure out if they are where you want them to be power wise and then adjust both wealth and the CR of what they fight to compensate.
So sure, if the group is just adamant that the group of 6 be at full WBL.. just start jacking up the CR. The end result is the same (lower wealth lower CR/ higher wealth, higher CR) but their perception will change. (yay we got more loot, we're more powerful!)
The ball for you to keep your eye on is the challenge level. Regardelsss of whether or not they get more or less loot- are they being challenged? Thats the hard part for you.
For them though they need to realize WBL is a tool for *you* to use, not a hammer for *them* to use on your. Its just part of Your balancing scale for challenge relative to them.
-S
Actually if they just turned level 6 than you're being pretty generous to be quite honest. Tell them that you as a player can't predict how much gold you will get because there is always treasure waiting ahead. That way you satisfy their hunger for gold and you get them excited for the encounters to come.
Black_Lantern: Why do you think the GM is being generous? When you reach a given level you should have that level's WBL.
If you crunch the numbers you find that with 20 encounters worth of treasure (it is approximately 20 equal CR encounters to each level) you wind up with more than WBL in gold. About 20-30% more depending on level. The assumption is that much of that gold is lost through selling equipment and consumables.
Here is where I demonstrate the differences between Table 12-4 and table 12-5.
The GM is clearly handing out less than normal treasure. Perhaps the GM is using fast experience and not upping the treasure amounts. Lowering the treasure gains is not a problem as long as the GM takes that into account by reducing the CR of the battles. Note: since there are 6 players that should raise the CR of the battles. The two might just balance out.
- Gauss
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I'm curious as to why your players felt the need to do the math. Do they feel under-equipped or hard-pressed during their normal adventuring day? Do they feel like they're being out-classed by NPCs and baddies? Are there certain items they'd like but can't create or obtain?
Perhaps they should get some other kinds of reward? 6th level is about the time I start handing out things like landed titles or membership in prestigious organizations, heroic mounts, divine boons, favors owed by important people, etc. Those kinds of resources can often be more useful than another piece of magical tat.
Black_Lantern: Why do you think the GM is being generous? When you reach a given level you should have that level's WBL.
If you crunch the numbers you find that with 20 encounters worth of treasure (it is approximately 20 equal CR encounters to each level) you wind up with more than WBL in gold. About 20-30% more depending on level. The assumption is that much of that gold is lost through selling equipment and consumables.
Here is where I demonstrate the differences between Table 12-4 and table 12-5.The GM is clearly handing out less than normal treasure. Perhaps the GM is using fast experience and not upping the treasure amounts. Lowering the treasure gains is not a problem as long as the GM takes that into account by reducing the CR of the battles. Note: since there are 6 players that should raise the CR of the battles. The two might just balance out.
- Gauss
We are using medium track....i fear i have been confused by the fact i have a party of 6 but the tables maybe are balanced for party of 4.Anyway i'm already adjusting CRs to party APL, as till now each encounter has been leveled like it wasn't even there. CRs of APL+2 or +3 had the advantage of high than normal AC so they lasted a bit more, but they had hard time landing blows on the melee PCs (magus,fighter,paladin,cleric).
I'm curious as to why your players felt the need to do the math. Do they feel under-equipped or hard-pressed during their normal adventuring day? Do they feel like they're being out-classed by NPCs and baddies? Are there certain items they'd like but can't create or obtain?
Perhaps they should get some other kinds of reward? 6th level is about the time I start handing out things like landed titles or membership in prestigious organizations, heroic mounts, divine boons, favors owed by important people, etc. Those kinds of resources can often be more useful than another piece of magical tat.
They knew the corebook as well,and they wanted to see how many items they could still craft once they reached 6.
To tell the truth they aren't having any difficulty during the encounters so far; of course someone gets hurt or fail a save from time to time but the players are good at group tactics and have plenty of healing abilities.And so my feeling i was being too generous in rewards.
Edit:and i just noticed i forgot to update the caster level in their char builds up above, they are still CR5 instead of 6
Wolfsnap: I for one can do the math without even thinking hard. Not everyone has to 'do the math' by making an effort. Some of us are just like that. My examination of the OP's equipment lists was mostly from memory. It is ingrained in my head. I could make a joke about needing the information removed but...nah. :D
- Gauss
WBL is irrelevant. My GM is stingy and runs a low magic campaign. At 6th level we broke into a vault we shouldn't have (natural 20's were involved) and my Wizard got a Mantle of Spell Resistance (90,000gp). Because it was a low magic game, however, my spell resistance has been tested very little. He was effectively way over WBL but it wasn't affecting his survival much (an amulet of natural armor would have done a lot more for me). And, no, I couldn't really sell it as the market for even 45,000gp magic items is vanishingly small in this game (the GM is stingy with his NPCs too).
What really matters is having relevant equipment to your role in the party. Melee types need magic weapons and armor. Looking at the list, they by and large have it (though the Rogue is lacking). The big thing is magic weapons so you probably should throw the Rogue a bone so he can bypass DR/Magic.
Helis: WBL is one of the metrics which CRs are compared to. While a GM may not use WBL he does need to make accomodations for higher or lower magic (and thus treasure) even if he never looks at WBL.
- Gauss
Nvm Gauss I misread. They're right that you're shorting them a lot of gold.
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Helis: WBL is one of the metrics which CRs are compared to. While a GM may not use WBL he does need to make accomodations for higher or lower magic (and thus treasure) even if he never looks at WBL.
While I agree that the GM always has to adjust CR with respect to the group (in this case there's 6 players, not the 'average' of 4, another reason to adjust), WBL is a bad measure of group strength. A character with all his WBL in the 'big six' (weapon, armor, shield, ring of deflection, cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor) is a lot better equipped to deal with CR=Class Level encounters than one with WBL sunk into Figurines of Power and Rings of Climbing.
It's not how much wealth they have, it's what the wealth is spent on.
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...
To tell the truth they aren't having any difficulty during the encounters so far; of course someone gets hurt or fail a save from time to time but the players are good at group tactics and have plenty of healing abilities.
....
Sounds like you're doing fine. As long as everyone is having fun ignore the WBL police.
...
Perhaps they should get some other kinds of reward? 6th level is about the time I start handing out things like landed titles or membership in prestigious organizations, heroic mounts, divine boons, favors owed by important people, etc. Those kinds of resources can often be more useful than another piece of magical tat. ...
Nice. This is the kind of thing that makes a game jump and breathe!
By my books he's being way to generous.
Don't coddle the players. Strip them down naked and have 6 orcs attack. The PCs can have some nice rusty swords after they tear out the throats of those orcs with their teeth.
WBL is not some absolute, just a guide line for one style of of play. No reason to quote it over and over when it is ultimately just an opinion.
Buddah668: He asked for an opinion. That opinion must be held against a standard. The only standard around is WBL. If a GM is going to run his game above or below the WBL standard shouldn't they know that they are doing so in order to adjust the CR's of his encounters accordingly?
- Gauss
By my books he's being way to generous.
Don't coddle the players. Strip them down naked and have 6 orcs attack. The PCs can have some nice rusty swords after they tear out the throats of those orcs with their teeth.
WBL is not some absolute, just a guide line for one style of of play. No reason to quote it over and over when it is ultimately just an opinion.
During a life of adventuring it can happen to parties :being taken prisoner, being stripped naked, having to start all over again, ok i'm not arguing on this.
I always try to include the possibility my party gets caught during a mission, but to ensure game longevity and players' fun i must also plan their escape and a chance they get back all of their equip, or a chance they get new one suitable to for the current level.This is a delicate topic and not all players are willing to play such a scenario, but this isn't the point of this thread,so i'll leave it here.
no problem if the people like it, problem if they are annoyed that they don't get anything/enough
The real problem is GMing people who played every single ed. of D&D from Redbox to 3,5 including the videogames (Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Icewind dale 1 & 2, Neverwinter nights 1 & 2).
They know the monsters, they know the WBL, they know the best items.
I also have to make them understand Pathfinder changed the balance WBL/level and reduced in power many items.
In case any of you wondered, i'm no newbie GM, but i admit the balance of PF CRs compared to the 3,5 one took me off-guard.
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Yes but the standard itself assumes a "standard" 15 point buy campaign. Very few campaigns are that standard.Buddah668: He asked for an opinion. That opinion must be held against a standard. The only standard around is WBL. If a GM is going to run his game above or below the WBL standard shouldn't they know that they are doing so in order to adjust the CR's of his encounters accordingly?
- Gauss
Part of what goes into WBL is also Consumables...the PCs burn through resources faster than they may think and that all gets baked into WBL. Do they have wands? Potions? A group loot bag? Paid services? Land? etc. etc. etc.
WBL is per character regardless of group size. A 6th level character should have roughly 16,000 gp as a party of 1 or in a party of 100.
However, the treasure value per encounter table assumes a party of 4. If there are 6 players, 150% of the values on that table is what should be handed out. So, each encounter at 6th level for a party of 6 using Medium progression should yield 3,000 gp if you want to end up matching up with the WBL table.
I agree on WBL being uniform regardless of group size. However, GMs shouldn't need to increase treasure for a larger group as the XP awarded is split among party members just as treasure is.
In handling larger parties, it's often recommended to increase encounter CR by adding more monsters. This will increase both XP and treasure awarded (ideally) to the same amount per encounter that would be awarded to a standard-sized party. Simply increasing the strength of individual opponents instead of adding more of them often results in higher difficulty than intended (AC, attack/damage, and save DCs are higher than the norm and can swiftly kill off the whole party).
I agree that it looks like you are a bit below the WBL tables. But that doesn't necessarily mean you are being too stingy.
How are you handling encounter strength to deal with the large party size?
Are the PC's having a significantly harder time accomplishing their goals than you planned?
Are you using the fast, med, or slow level progression?
I agree on WBL being uniform regardless of group size. However, GMs shouldn't need to increase treasure for a larger group as the XP awarded is split among party members just as treasure is.
Sort of. Let's make life easy and imagine a part of 8 PCs. They're each going to get half the XP reward from an encounter that a party of 4 would normally get. Good news... it takes twice as long to level up. Also, they're going to get half the treasure that a part of 4 would normally get. Similarly it takes them twice as long to get to WBL. So in this sense you're right... a GM shouldn't have to adjust treasure.
That said, fact is these PCs are under recommended wealth. So something wasn't done right, somewhere, somewhen, by someone.
One big component of this could be expenditures. If your players decide the best way to rescue the princess is to give all their wealth to the hostage-taker, they get XP but no loot. Hmmm. Problem. You don't want to say "well, you should've fought him, killed him, and plundered his steaming corpse." That's dictating play style. Ultimately the king should reward the rescuers by giving them funds equivalent to what they spent, plus the appropriate income for saving her.
My point is that periodically a GM should be looking at WBL and adjusting things to keep players reasonably close.
In my groups, we always keep an extra share of loot for a "party fund". Things like cure-sticks, extradimensional carrying capacity, diamond dust... stuff everyone will benefit from are bought from that share. Well, that draws down everyone's personal WBL. Since party gear is utility over flare, I adjust and make sure players still have WBL.
LazarX:
Let us assume for a moment that a GM is being 'heavy' on the treasure. ("Giving out too much").
Let us also assume he gave out a 25point buy at the beginning.
Finally, let us assume he has 6 players.
Now: without knowing the following 'standards' he may wonder why a pregen modules encounters are so easy for the players.
Standard 1: WBL. IF your players have significantly more or less equipment than the WBL standard then the CR of the encounters needs to be adjusted.
Stamdard 2: Point buy. If you are giving out higher or lower point buys than the standard the CR of the encounters (for the first couple levels) needs to be adjusted.
Standard 3: 4 Players. If you have more or less than this standard the CR of the encounters will need to be adjusted higher or lower.
A GM who does not know these standards may run into problems. That does NOT imply the GM must follow the standards. Just acknowledge them in order to properly adjust his game.
Anyone who states 'you are giving too little and you are a bad GM' is wrong. Personally, I told the OP that he is giving out less but that is probably fine due to the higher number of players. The two were balancing each other out. However, it seemed like the OP was unaware of the standard and the OP's players certainly seem like they wanted more treasure. So the suggestions have been that if the OP brings the treasure up to WBL standards then he needs to increase the CR of the encounters accordingly for the extra 2 players.
- Gauss
Part of what goes into WBL is also Consumables...the PCs burn through resources faster than they may think and that all gets baked into WBL. Do they have wands? Potions? A group loot bag? Paid services? Land? etc. etc. etc.
Odd, I remember being quite surprised to hear from a Paizo staff member -- Jason or James, maybe SKR? -- that consumables are NOT counted in that calculation. It caused a bit of a stir in my group particularly because of wands of CLW.
But anyway, I would tack on 10-15%(?) to the WBL for such things as potions, or the way I actually do it is to ignore the use of consumables when figuring the party's current wealth.
I also calculate wealth individually rather than as a party. The higher level your party gets, the greater the disparity there will be between their effectiveness and the specific difficulties they will face with any given encounter *IF* you don't figure the wealth by individual.